Dáil Éireann debate -
Tuesday, 16 Jun 1970

Vol. 247 No. 8

Committee on Finance. - Vote 8: Public Works and Buildings (Resumed).

Debate resumed on the following motion:

That the Vote be referred back for reconsideration.

—(Deputy Kenny.)

Mr. Keating

I wish to take up now the matter of the responsibility of the the Office of Public Works in regard to Hume Street and to their ownership of two properties there, and to request some answers from the Parliamentary Secretary about a very odd omission on the part of the Office of Public Works. There was the circumstance that the Green Property Company submitted a proposal for development and sought planning permission, including in their proposal the two houses which are the property of the Office of Public Works. This was an extraordinary action. If we have a property company hoping to be able to amalgamate a number of separate properties so that they can develop the whole site, their natural desire would be to conceal their interest in certain of the properties until they had the opportunity of buying. An explicit declaration of interest or intention, in normal circumstances, would make the achievement of amalgamating these separate sites very much more difficult. They took this course. It is permissible to seek planning permission in regard to a property one does not own. However, if the owner lodges an objection then the planning permission cannot be granted.

The extraordinary thing is that the Office of Public Works did not lodge an objection to the request for planning permission put in by the Green Property Company. We are entitled to a detailed explanation of this omission when the Parliamentary Secretary is replying, because it is an omission which has had extremely serious repercussions. Either the Office of Public Works were not aware—which seems impossible and incredible, and I think this is an explanation we can ignore— or else they knew that this permission had been sought in regard to properties in their possession and did not choose to object. They knew, of course, that the granting of outline planning permission gave to the developers, once it was granted, a certain legal standing and certain advantages in the matter.

How are we to explain then this extraordinary course of action? How are we to explain this stewardship in regard to public property? I am not able to prove what I am about to say, but, in my opinion, there is only one possible construction that can be put on the action of the Office of Public Works. That construction is not at civil service level, be it emphasised, but at Government level; that construction is that promises were given by senior members of the Government to the Green Property Company indicating to them that they would receive completely favourable treatment.

Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister for Finance (Mr. Lemass)

Nonsense, and the Deputy knows it.

Mr. Keating

I note the Parliamentary Secretary's denial of this, but I shall await with great interest any possible explanation he can give of this action.

Mr. Lemass

It is all on the record.

Mr. Desmond

It is not the first time 10 per cent has been mentioned.

Mr. Lemass

It is all on the record.

Mr. Keating

And a very scandalous record it is. There is no explanation other than the private holding out of promises by a Government Minister——

Mr. Lemass

Disgraceful.

Mr. Keating

——and all this disgusting episode originated in this way. Of course, it will be denied. There is nothing on paper, but how are we to interpret the suggestions of betrayal and the suggestions of broken promises emanating from the Green Property Company, promises which should never have been made but which they seem to believe were made? We have witnessed a very mixed set of events in regard to these houses: first, the desecration of an important part of Dublin. It is nice now that the new Minister for Finance has interested himself recently in a solution. However, we have also witnessed at the same time that this scandal was being perpetrated in this city with Government collusion, a most important force coming into existence in Dublin to prevent similar desecration in future. We have witnessed the responsibility, the maturity and the dedication of young people. We have witnessed the matter of conservation in Dublin become an issue that is now much more deeply cared about than it was previously. It is due partly to the bully-boy tactics of a firm of private investigators, which are beginning to look like an enforcement agency, and partly due to the extraordinary sense of public relations that was involved in breaking into a building at 4 o'clock in the morning and bashing up the people inside.

This has become a big issue. It highlights the point that there is no way, under present legislation including the Planning Act, for an organisation such as the Office of Public Works to discharge with justice and dignity their duty towards the properties they hold in the centre of the city and of which they wish to dispose. There is the impossible dilemma, if we accept the present system of developing our city, that if you sell for the highest possible price property you no longer wish to retain, that is desirable from one point of view but, if you get the highest possible price, you guarantee the desecration of the city in the process because the people able to pay the highest possible price are people who want to put up office accommodation.

It has been said by other Deputies in this context that the need of city centres—and this is something which has emerged all over the world—is to be kept alive and to be kept human by the location of residential areas in among the buildings that cease to have any function at 5.30 p.m., or 6 p.m., or at some time in the day. We have seen the dying of such centres and we are witnessing, by this present agreement in which the Minister for Finance was involved and, no doubt, his advisers in the Office of Public Works, participation in the killing of the city centre so that it will become simply a place to which people go during working hours but not a place in which people live, in which they have a total existence and community.

In the pseudo-resolution of the problem which has emerged we have no more than a gentlemen's agreement between the Green Property Company and the bodies interested in conservation, with the participation of the Minister for Finance.

The situation now is that an offer to do a temporary repair job on these buildings, from which the roofs were torn so unceremoniously, has been made and that offer has been declined and the rafters and the floors are open to the sky. Therefore one risks a simple kind of solution to the problem; one could say in three months or six months that it is now too late to do anything anyway because you cannot, in our climate, simply take off a roof and smash in windows and expect the place not to deteriorate. You cannot do it in any climate and particularly not in ours. Therefore we are faced with the possibility that just by delay those who wish to destroy Georgian Dublin will in this particular instance attain a part of their objective. I do not know if an agreement of this sort, which is a temporary stand-off, if it is not honoured in the spirit, can be enforced legally. It is nothing more than a gentlemen's agreement. If it is not honoured in the spirit promptly then the simple passage if time will destroy that agreement.

It is fair that someone should say publicly on behalf of those who wish to preserve these houses, on behalf of the students and of all the people who concern themselves with the preservation of Hume Street, that if that comes about, if we get the ripping down of those facades, as has already happened to some extent, and if we get a sort of pastiche Georgian just to be scrambled through the planning authority, with the effective desecration of that part of St. Stephen's Green and Hume Street, then my own conviction is that the extraordinary patience and restraint shown by the demonstrators will be hard to contain and the ensuing row which will be of a far more serious nature will be of the making of the Government and will be the Government's responsibility. To think that you can just patch up a thing in this way and then forget about it in the hope that the problem will go away is an illusion which will rapidly be seen to be so unless those houses are now roofed and put into some sort of condition to withstand our climate. The fact that serious damage has not been done already to them is simply the result of the extraordinarily fine weather we have had for a very long time, but already too much time has been allowed to elapse.

That leads me to the final consideration about the use of buildings in the ownership and in the care of the Office of Public Works and then in the ownership, through the Office of Public Works, of the nation and of the people. We have been assured in regard to these houses (a) that they are unsuitable for the purpose to which they were put and (b) that they had deteriorated to the extent that it was not an economic proposition to restore them and to keep them going. There are other houses of architectural value around the city also belonging to the people through the mechanism I have outlined. First of all, it has been the experience all over the world that houses of architectural value and of some beauty, style and atmosphere, which from the point of view of the maximum use of cubic capacity, the difficulty of heating and so on, may not be ideal in the light of what modern offices should be, can certainly be made into very dignified, very beautiful and very suitable offices. It has been the experience all over the world that although important architectural buildings, used by Governments and public authorities, are indeed a little less convenient than a modern office block, they are so vastly compensating in other ways as to be well worth keeping. I do not think anybody accepts the argument that these Georgian houses are so unsuited to the purpose for which they were put for the past 50 years that they must now be disposed of or knocked down. That is a non-argument and it is offensive to offer it to people and expect them to believe it.

The other point is that all over the world houses which are greatly older —because we are talking about houses of the order of 200 years old, maybe a little more, maybe a little less—and subject to greater stresses of climate and situation are being kept in perfectly good repair and occupation. There is no technical problem in this regard at all, absolutely none. To suggest that it is impossible to maintain in good habitable repair the Georgian houses of Dublin is to fly in the face of all experience, and indeed, fly in the face of the experience of those people, most of them private individuals, who are maintaining these houses well and looking after them for their own pleasure and benefit and also for the pleasure and benefit of Ireland and of future generations. So that is not a serious argument either. If it is true that these houses have been allowed deteriorate to the extent that an uneconomic amount of money will have to be spent to put them into proper, habitable condition again, it points only to neglect during the life of the State by the Office of Public Works; these buildings are capable of being maintained and utilised but the argument seems to be that they were allowed to deteriorate. Other people have made use of Georgian houses and if the Government recognised their social value and had the will to preserve them, the technical difficulty would be only trivial.

This raises the very serious question that goes beyond Hume Street of whether the attitude to these buildings is on a par with the care being bestowed on other buildings of different periods and different historic traditions in this country by the same organisation. Many people in Ireland, including myself, listened with horror and a certain amount of fascination to the onslaughts of the ex-Minister for Local Government on censervationists but is it a case that Georgian houses in Dublin represent a strand in our culture to which many of us do not belong? Is it that we do not feel strong enough or confident enough to accept every strand of every beautiful object in our entire cultural tradition, whatever source it may come from? Is there a variation between Georgian buildings and others or is there the hope that, if neglected long enough, they will fall down or become so damaged that it would be impossible to repair them?

An Ceann Comhairle

The Deputy will appreciate that we cannot have a debate on Georgian buildings per se on this Estimate. The debate is confined to properties owned by the Government.

Mr. Keating

I suggest, a Cheann Comhairle, that the treatment of two houses owned by the Government at St. Stephen's Green is symptomatic of an attitude and it was that attitude I was discussing. I submit it is relevant to the matter in hand since it is the direct responsibility of the Office of Public Works and, through the Office of Public Works, the responsibility of the Minister for Finance, to ensure that these buildings are looked after. It has been suggested that these two houses are now at a stage of being economically irreparable. Therefore, I would suggest that the observations I was making were relevant. However, I have concluded my observations.

An Ceann Comhairle

Only Government property can be relevantly discussed on the Estimate.

Mr. Keating

I was referring to the houses at St. Stephen's Green which are Government property.

An Ceann Comhairle

The Deputy was speaking generally and did refer to the houses but he went on to discuss Georgian houses in general.

Mr. Keating

It was a perfectly legitimate generalisation. I suggest that provided the generalisation relates to some specific matter it is in order. If we were to operate in general, debate would become impossible and would remain entirely limited to direct factual matters.

I wish to raise the question of what is economic and of what is uneconomic because economic criteria are not applicable in any real sense when a Government Department own property of cultural value and if this is recognised in regard to our ancient monuments, surely it ought to be recognised in regard to Georgian houses also. Far from the attitude of neglect, dislike and contempt expressed in the Government's actions as distinct from words, but sometimes in words also, towards Georgian buildings, we might expect a constructive and creative leadership by the Office of Public Works in regard to these buildings. I should like to see them kept in the best possible condition and furnished in so far as possible in the manner of the period so that they might become not simply objects of physical accommodation for public servants and others but objects of cultural value and interest in our city.

We are entitled to expect this sort of leadership of attitude from the Office of Public Works as we are entitled to criticise the absence of such leadership in the past. If it is true that upheavals in Hume Street have aroused the interest of the population to a greater extent than was previously the case, we might hope that from electoral considerations, if no others, the Government would show a greater sense of responsibility in regard to the cultural value of these buildings.

Mr. Tunney

Tá a lán dualgaisí agus cúraimí ag brath ar Oifig na nOibreacha Poiblí. Tá sé nadúrach agus iontuigthe nach dtig leo iad go léir a shásamh. Tuigimíd go léir na deacrachtaí atá orthu agus mar sin nuair a chaitheann muid anuas orthu, níl i gceist ach nach bhfuilimid sásta maidir le pontí áirithe. Níl i gceist agam ach dhá phointe.

The Office of Public Works are entrusted with such a variety of duties and responsibilities that by their very nature and extent it is inevitable that the Parliamentary Secretary and his staff should suffer more condemnation and criticism than commendation and praise. When viewing such blanket responsibility, it is inevitable that many speakers will be critical of omissions and of a certain lack of expenditure on matters which they realise come within the ambit of the Office of Public Works and on matters in which priorities will be in conflict with the Parliamentary Secretary and his staff.

Personally, I sympathise with the Parliamentary Secretary in the extent of these responsibilities. Perhaps I would sympathise with him also that because of the affinity of the Board of Works with the Department of Finance, we might assume that restricted finances may be applied to the Office of Public Works rather than to some other office or to some other Department.

I propose dealing with only two points in the Estimate. First of all, I should like to refer to the lesser of the two but, at the same time, a point which warrants certain consideration. In honesty, I must admit to not having the same interest in or the same architectural knowledge of Georgian buildings as have Deputy Keating and other speakers who may see all that is best in Irish heritage and culture in the preservation and the conservation of such buildings. In passing, I might say on that particular point that at times I am at a loss to reconcile this expressed regard for our heritage that seems to manifest itself only in regard to physical heritage and which has no regard at all for the spiritual and linguistic traditions of the Irish people. When I look at the demonstrators who have been credited with such maturity by Deputy Keating I wonder whether they are genuinely interested in all that is best in Irish culture or whether their interest is purely architectural.

An Cheann Comhairle

The Deputy made this allusion and, as the Deputy himself knows, it is not relevant to this debate. The only thing which is relevant is Georgian architecture. The debate is concerned with buildings in the possession of the State for which the Board of Works have responsibility.

Mr. Tunney

If you had borne with me for a little while longer, Sir, your reminder of my being slightly out of order might not have been necessary because now I want to speak of the buildings with which I am really concerned. The Office of Public Works are responsible for the provision of accommodation for State servants and new buildings for leasing and renting. I am slightly critical of the situation which exists today. It strikes me that the Office of Public Works, when on the look out for such buildings, are not very anxious to move away to a far greater extent from the seat of Government here, from Departments that already exist. Their involvement in purchasing and renting properties in this area has had the effect of increasing their value. The sooner they withdraw from this area, the area within a mile of this building, the better. They should look to other areas in Dublin city where they could get accommodation comparable with and, in my opinion, better than that at present available in this area at a cheaper price and where they would be serving the useful purpose of revitalising areas which cannot boast of such offices. They would thus help alleviate the traffic congestion which exists in the area surrounding this building and in removing the pressures on restaurants and hotels in this area. They could thus encourage a situation where State servants might select other parts of the city in which to reside rather than forcing the vast majority of them to look for accommodation on the south side of the city because of its convenience to their offices.

I know a slight move has been made in this direction. The Office of Public Works have taken accommodation in Phibsboro and in the north of the city there are sorting offices. I hope, however, the Office of Public Works will survey the northern side of the city, assess the situation there, and perhaps decide, having regard to all the circumstances, to select certain areas there in which to build, lease or rent office accommodation. This would help towards the general policy of decentralisation for which we all hope. I am glad to hear that the proposals to transfer the Department of Education to Athlone and the Department of Lands to Castlebar are being proceeded with. It has been contended by some people that this is a revolutionary move. We should gain from it information which would be useful to us in the major movement of State offices to other counties.

I come now to my real interest in this Estimate, the Phoenix Park. I recollect I spoke on this last year also. This is one of the greatest parks in Europe. It bears comparison, relatively speaking, with any other park in the world. We should perhaps occasionally pause and express a quiet word of gratitude to the people of former generations, some by design and others perhaps by force, who contributed to making the Phoenix Park available to us.

Dr. Byrne

They were English. It was under British rule.

Mr. Tunney

The Deputy would have a special regard for them. I have some, too, but I opted not to mention them. I thank the Deputy for doing so. I hoped I would not have to recall that the Irish people were then the slaves of these people under the British rule the Deputy favours so much. I express my belated gratitude to the Irish people of those days who had to put up with conditions requiring them to forgo many material comforts so that funds were available to provide us with this Park.

I hope the present generation will make their contribution to the continuing development of the Phoenix Park. I want to express a word of disappointment here. I am rather displeased that the Estimate contains no substantial sum for new works, alterations and additions in the Phoenix Park. We should be anxious to preserve the traditional situation, whereby every citizen of Ireland and every visitor from abroad is free to enter the Phoenix Park, enjoy its beauty—a combination of man's workmanship and nature's bounty—enjoy the aesthetic, recreational and functional values of the Park without any charge whatsoever. However, in their enjoyment of the Park, they should be careful not to detract from the enjoyment of anybody else and not to damage the Park in any way.

I want to mention again—I did so last year—an innovation which to me is not entirely welcome. This innovation has not been caused by the Office of Public Works but I mention it here in so far as it is their responsibility. Several horse-riding schools have been established all around the outer walls of the Phoenix Park. They are all commercial ventures. From surveys of my own I suggest there are perhaps 150 to 200 horses entering the Phoenix Park every day. I am concerned about the spoliation caused by this traffic. More important still, I am concerned about the fact that the horse-riders entering the Phoenix Park may not be skilled horse-riders. I do not know of any examination taking place outside the Phoenix Park to test the skills of the riders. A horse might shy and permanent injury could be caused to some other user of the park. A lady who is entitled to walk in the park with her pram and her children, and enjoy what the park has to offer, might be injured. Apart from the injury which a person might suffer, there is the fact that people are sometimes forced to give right-of-way to someone approaching on horse-back. I do not wish to see these facilities denied to people who wish to enjoy the Phoenix Park on horse-back but I am concerned about the payment of 10s to someone supplying this service outside the park which might entitle a person to infringe the rights of other users of the park. The Office of Public Works might perhaps initiate some meetings with the people who are engaged in this business and lay down very strict rules for them. I do not know whether the application of the existing by-laws might help. I am concerned about this matter even though it may injure the business ambitions of people engaged in horse-riding and irrespective of whether the case will be made that this service is welcomed by visitors from other countries. I am concerned initially, as everybody in this House should be concerned, for our own people.

The Parliamentary Secretary, when replying, might allay the fears I have mentioned in the matter of injury to a child or an adult in the Phoenix Park. Have these commercial concerns satisfied the Parliamentary Secretary that they have the resources and the moneys to compensate adequately anyone who might be injured? Is the onus on the Office of Public Works to make such compensation and if so perhaps the Parliamentary Secretary would tell us whether or not they have extracted a premium from these people which would provide for the compensation?

Thousands of young people in Dublin go to the Phoenix Park in the afternoon or at the weekends and they look on it as an area where they can engage in sport. The Office of Public Works should maintain the football pitches in a proper fashion. I have visited these pitches over the past years. I have visited the Gaelic and the Soccer pitches. Perhaps the marked deterioration in the pitches is due to the extensive and intensive use of the pitches. The pitches contain dips and hollows which not alone make it difficult to execute the skills of particular games but introduce a new dimension in that the pitches become dangerous at times, especially at this time of the year. I know that maintenance requires expenditure of money and that additional staff would be needed. Having regard to the benefits which accrue from such work I consider that very small expenditure would be necessary. Massive sums are being spent on the development of harbours and on the prevention of coastal erosion. I wonder whether some of that money should have been spent on improving the Phoenix Park which provides for so many people facilities which they cannot obtain elsewhere. I am not looking for any additional pitches but I feel the existing pitches should be re-sodded. This whole question should be examined. It may be necessary to close off some of the pitches pro tem. These pitches should be comparable with the best in the country.

There is one eysore in the Phoenix Park at the moment. It is an area near where the Gough Monument used to be. It formerly contained a cricket pitch. There was a rather attractive wooden paling around it. This paling has been broken. It is a remarkable reflection on the users of the Park that the incidence of vandalism in Phoenix Park is slighter than in any other part of the city. I imagine that the paling to which I refer has fallen from old age. I am surprised that the normally vigilant staff of Phoenix Park and the highly efficient superintendent have not arranged to have this paling replaced or removed entirely. At the moment it is not a good advertisement for the Phoenix Park, the city or, indeed, for the Office of Public Works.

I should like to avail of this opportunity to compliment the Parliamentary Secretary on what he has been doing and attempting to do in the matter of the provision of a golf course in Dublin, what might be termed a municipal golf course. I hope that within a short time he will be able to tell us that what is now being examined has become a fact and that the people of Dublin, those who at the moment cannot enjoy the exclusiveness of the established golf clubs, will be able to move out to that side of the Liffey where they can enjoy a game of golf and where I should hope it will be shown that the Board of Works will be able to manage and cater for the needs of these golfers without showing a loss. I know there were some objections to the proposal when it was mentioned. It was felt especially that it might disturb the existing Phoenix Park. I read somewhere, perhaps it was in some statement by the Parliamentary Secretary, that years ago one of the amenities available to people in the Phoenix Park was a golf course— whether it was of the major, of the maxi or of the mini type I do not know.

I hope too that in considering the provision of this golf course the Parliamentary Secretary will examine the possibility of providing other forms of recreation or entertainment. On this I have one proposal to make to him. Deputy Dr. Byrne mentioned today that he was concerned, as we all are, with the number of bathing tragedies which occurred over the week-end. Already there is in Dublin and elsewhere a certain urgency about the provision of swimming pools. In every area one enters in Dublin the people are looking for a swimming pool. This is very desirable but I would hate to think of what the situation would be if all these demands were satisfied. Imagine having throughout Dublin a motley of swimming pools—some satisfactory, others unsatisfactory. I would hope that the swimming pools we would have would be first-class swimming pools and I feel that in the matter of big capital investment from the State or from the local authorities we should have in the Phoenix Park one national swimming pool. The acreage is there. We could have a 50-metre swimming pool, provision for car parking, restaurants and things which would be ancillary to a swimming pool there. These could be provided. I suggest, without in any way interfering with the characteristics or the beauty of the park and it would be in keeping with the idea which we all hold as far as the park is concerned—that anybody is entitled to pursue worthwhile physical exercise in the park. There is an obligation on us, I suggest, that in the matter of physical education the State should provide a national swimming pool. As I see it there is no better place in which to provide it than the Phoenix Park.

Last year when replying to the debate the Parliamentary Secretary gave me a semi assurance, at least, that a matter about which I had complained —the removal of gate-keepers from the Phoenix Park gates—would be corrected. That to me is a very important aspect of the Phoenix Park. People may say that we are employing men to stand there and to do nothing. Having regard to the growing use of the Phoenix Park which is expected it is more desirable and more urgent than ever that we should have at these major entrances gate-keepers, constables, who would stand and watch and report to the local gardaí on any matter which they think concerns the reputation, concerns the safety of the people, young and old, whose right it is to enjoy the Phoenix Park. I hope that when the Parliamentary Secretary is replying the will indicate to me what headway, if any, has been made on restoring what was the status quo there. The removal of these gate-keepers is a retrograde step and one that is difficult to explain. Twenty or 30 years ago it was felt desirable to have gate-keepers on the Phoenix Park and now some official, some member of the Parliamentary Secretary's staff, decided—perhaps for economic reasons, I do not know—that they should be removed. I consider the wage bill of the gate-keepers is a very small and relatively unimportant consideration having regard to the overall importance of their being watch-dogs of the Phoenix Park.

Again referring back to the Parliamentary Secretary's reply last year I welcomed—though I had reservations on the matter at the time—an indication from him that his officers were considering providing in one of our parks, possibly the Phoenix Park, an area which would be for the exclusive use of the blind. I have not since heard anything about that proposal. I appreciate that there are possibly certain delicacies. There are possibly certain restrictions in the matter of the proposal. We would not want those people to think that they were subject to scrutiny from outside. In the main I thought the idea was quite a useful one. I should be anxious to hear what headway, if any, has been made.

The Parliamentary Secretary mentioned the possibility of having a playing area for young children in the People's Gardens in the Phoenix Park. This is a worthwhile project and should be proceeded with without delay. Regard must be had to the fact that a quite considerable contribution has been made by the people of Dublin to the overall expenditure of £10 million for the Office of Public Works. I do not wish to play the city against rural parts but I do not think it will be regarded as selfish or greedy if I suggest there is every reason for the citizens of Dublin to expect greater expenditure on the maintenance and development of the Phoenix Park. I hope when the Estimates come before us next year the balance that seems to have weighed against Dublin will be redressed and that a substantial amount will be available for the provision and development of additional recreational facilities in the Phoenix Park.

Mr. Desmond

Hear, hear.

Dr. Byrne

While I should like to comment on the contribution of Deputy Tunney, I must first refer to the Minister's statement in connection with the facilities he has made available for mentally and physically handicapped children. The Minister is in difficulty here because he has not got facts or figures at his disposal in respect of the number of mentally handicapped children in the country nor, apparently, has he any figures from the Minister for Health regarding future projections. As the incidence of deaths in the pre-natal period of infant life decreases, so the incidence of mentally handicapped children increases. This is a medical fact and in a country like ours with no therapeutic abortions or means of contraception the larger number of children inevitably means there is an increase in the number of defective offspring.

The Minister has mentioned the provision of three schools but this is entirely inadequate. In the Minister's speech there is reference to "parents whose anguish it was to have to keep them at home when no such schools were provided".

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

The Deputy will appreciate that schools are a matter for the Department of Education. The Office of Public Works are a building agency for the Department of Education and criticism regarding the lack of schools is a matter for the Estimate on the Department of Education.

Dr. Byrne

I was speaking regarding the provision of schools for the mentally handicapped which the Minister mentioned in his opening speech.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

As the Chair reads it, the Parliamentary Secretary referred to the fact that three more schools for mentally and physically handicapped children were completed during the year. However, the Chair is concerned about the fact that in regard to various Departments for which the Office of Public Works are the building agency at the same time they have not overall responsibility. They merely act as agents for the Department concerned.

Dr. Byrne

I take your point, a Leas-Cheann Comhairle. With regard to the three schools that have been provided by the Office of Public Works, it is obvious that they have not been instructed to erect a larger number of schools by the Department of Education. I am quite sure the Minister would erect more schools if he were so instructed. Perhaps, this is due to a lack of co-ordination among Government Ministers, particularly the Ministers for Health and Education. Obviously, the Minister for Health has not communicated data to the Minister for Education regarding the increase in the number of mentally defective children and, in turn, that Minister has been unable to inform the Minister responsible for the Office of Public Works. The Minister has mentioned the fact that he would like to build boarding schools if he were so instructed.

At column 956, volume 247 of the Official Report dated the 11th June, 1970, the Minister states:

No task could be more important and no effort should be spared to accommodate and facilitate these children not only for their own sakes but for the sake of their parents whose anguish it was to have to keep them at home when no such schools were provided.

I am sure all Deputies will agree with the Minister regarding the importance of this task. The matter of mentally handicapped children has been discussed at length and much has been said regarding the inadequate facilities and buildings for accommodating and educating these children. The fact that the Minister has made provision for the erection of only three schools for these unfortunate children is an indication of the gross inefficiency and lack of co-ordination that exists in Government Departments. It is unfortunate that this has occurred in a year when many other things have upset the Government. We can sympathise with the Minister responsible for the Office of Public Works that he cannot do more in this field because, quite obviously, he has not been instructed to do any more although we all agree that the provision of adequate facilities for handicapped children is most important. Next year I should like to see the Minister present an Estimate whereby he would on the instruction of the Minister for Education allocate more money for such families. It is a fact that there is a grave shortage of suitable buildings. Marlborough House is under the care of the Parliamentary Secretary. The building is situated on the verge of my constituency. It is a gross insult from the point of view of effective rehabilitation. I appeal to the Parliamentary Secretary to make the building presentable. It is propped up with timbers. The facade is disgraceful.

The Parliamentary Secretary referred to the Phoenix Park. Let us not be under any delusion; the people who made this park available were the British rulers of the past. They also made available the Royal Hospital, Kilmainham, which is now regarded as a great building. It was built because of the constant skirmishes which took place between the British Army and the Irish insurgents. It was built for the British, not for us. It is one of the oldest British hospitals; it was completed before the Victoria Hospital in London. I fail to see the historical importance of this building for us. It is a monument to British rule. I do not like to see large amounts of money spent on the maintenance of this building, particularly as it is not being used for any productive purpose.

There are people who rant and rave about the beautiful facade of the Rotunda Hospital. It was built to cater for the unfortunate women who became pregnant as a result of the activities of British soldiers. It is one of the oldest maternity hospitals in the world. Let us not forget its origin or the reason why it was built; it was built to cater for the results of the disgraceful conduct of the British troops.

Kilmainham Jail is a monument to British rule. It is not so long since the statue of Queen Victoria graced the front of this House. It was removed only some years ago. I remember seeing it myself. It is only a few years since Nelson was removed from our widest and greatest street. We have Fianna Fáil shouting about republicanism and nationalism and, at the same time, we have Fianna Fáil lauding the work done by British rulers of the past.

The Phoenix Park was provided for the people of Dublin. It is one of the greatest amenities we have but that does not mean that I praise the Lord Lieutenant of the day. It is a tremendous asset but it is not used enough. The Parliamentary Secretary said, in relation to the Phoenix Park, that there were many strong arguments against the provision of a municipal golf course in the Phoenix Park, though he admitted he was having the matter followed up as one of urgency because he had received hundreds of letters in support of the proposal. I do not know how anyone, particularly anyone on the Fianna Fáil benches, could object to making available recreational facilities for the working man in Dublin, the man who cannot afford to become a member of the 15 expensive golf clubs in the environs of Dublin. I cannot understand why Deputy Tunney should have any objection to the provision of a municipal golf course in the Phoenix Park.

When the Phoenix Park was provided a group of gangsters—they were called park rangers—cordoned off large areas of the Phoenix Park and built nice little houses for themselves. Nothing has ever been done by the Office of Public Works to get this land back. In one of these houses built by one of the so-called park rangers the Ambassador to the United States lives. In another one of these large buildings which is fenced off with barbed wire, french drains and a wall lives the President of Ireland. Much land is taken up by these residences.

What about the people of Dublin who have not the money to join a golf club? How can Fianna Fáil Deputies object to the provision of this course when so very many acres are taken up in private residences? The Minister is to be complimented on the work done in the Phoenix Park extension. It is a tremendous service. I do not believe the Minister realises to the full the service he is providing in this municipal course. He is giving the people of Dublin something they have wanted for years. It is a wonderful work. It is one of the best acts as regards the people of Dublin from the Fianna Fáil benches since I became a Member of this House. The Minister will long be remembered for this. I do not think we should stop there. Being a good sportsman, the Minister knows the health value of outdoor recreation. I do not think the provision of a golf course in the Phoenix Park, with its vast acreage, will interfere with the deer there or with the woman who is wheeling her pram. There is plenty of room there. In other countries green fees, and so on, have added to the coffers of the exchequer and have reduced to some extent the burden of rates. The Minister stated that certain people have objected to this step. I should like to know what the objections were. I have not come across any people who objected to the provision of a municipal golf course in the Phoenix Park.

Deputy Tunney has returned to the House. I want to refer to his reference to riding schools at the Phoenix Park. Although I do not ride, one day I went to one of those schools and paid my 10s for one and a half hour's riding. There were about eight people in my group, six of whom were working class lads from the Finglas area who had gone up on that Saturday afternoon for a bit of recreation in the park. They had a great time. There was no question at all of these riding schools being used by a so-called privileged class. If the riding schools there can cater as satisfactorily for the teenagers of Dublin North-West as they did for the group of which I was a member on that day, we should be very grateful for that amenity. These recreational facilities are provided by private individuals at no cost to the Exchequer. In the light of present day prices, I find it difficult to understand how they can hire out a horse for riding for approximately 1½ hours, for the price of two packets of cigarettes.

Mr. Tunney

My point was whether a working class man could withstand a personal injuries claim of some thousands of pounds.

Dr. Byrne

I would not have raised this matter in the absence of the Deputy. I consider his remarks about the riding schools not to have been encouraging.

Mr. Tunney

The Deputy has not dispelled my fear or answered my question in relation to the withstanding of a claim for personal injuries incurred in the Phoenix Park.

Dr. Byrne

This could be a claim for £17,000.

Mr. Tunney

I shall settle now for £4,000.

Dr. Byrne

It could go as high as the highest claims which have come into courts. It could be £70,000.

Mr. Tunney

Could the Deputy's working class friends from Finglas pay it to the injured party?

Dr. Byrne

A facility is being provided by these horse riding schools. I can understand the concern for people who may be injured by these horses in the vicinity of the Park. I am quite sure the Parliamentary Secretary has taken steps to see that any horse riding school which is set up is insured. The school I went to had no notices saying that you rode at your own risk. I am referring to the discouraging remarks the Fianna Fáil Deputy made. I believe that the provision of riding facilities in the Phoenix Park for working class people is wonderful. I did not hear the Deputy referring to any of the so-called privileged classes riding there. We know that members of the Aras an Uachtaráin household ride quite freely there.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

The Deputy should be careful in references to people who are not here.

Dr. Byrne

The Park has been used by particular families and, to my knowledge, no objection was ever raised by any members of the Government party. I should like to see the Parliamentary Secretary encouraging horse riding because it is a tremendous sport. There is very little danger of a horse trampling down a woman with a pram. When the horses come into the Park they are walking. They trot gently through the fields and they canter in the wide open spaces near St. Mary's Hospital. There is a special gallop track there which is well organised. From my own experience of cricket and riding, there is as much chance of being hit by a cricket ball from the cricket pitches as there is of being knocked down by a horse in the Phoenix Park.

Other sports are played there: soccer, cricket, camogie, running, athletics, hockey and polo. There is no reason why riding facilities should not be freely available. Who walks across these large acreages anyway? I very seldom see anybody walking across them. I see herds of deer there all right. I have never known of anybody who was in fear of being run down by a horse there. In fact, it is the opposite. It is the person on the horse who is in danger. I do not know if the Deputy is aware—I am sure the Parliamentary Secretary is aware because he is a sporting man—that one of the highest incidences of injury occurs amongst horsemen.

Riding is a wonderful way of exercising. I was delighted to see these youths exercising themselves in this way. One of the greatest pleasures I have had since I was elected to this House was to participate with them on a no-barrier footing. The extension of these facilities, with possibly a subsidy from the Government, would greatly enhance this athletic exercise which is pursued there by my constituents and I am sure that some of the Deputy's constituents from across the river venture into the Phoenix Partk at different hours to participate in the facilities provided there.

Deputy Tunney spoke about a national swimming pool. I should like to support this idea fully. Deputy Tunney made a fine contribution to this debate. I disagree with him on my interpretation of his remarks about the horse-riding schools but I agree with him that the Parliamentary Secretary should take steps to see that sufficient compensation is available for anybody who may be injured, including the riders. I do not know exactly what the Deputy has in mind when he talks about the provision of a national swimming pool but we certainly should have swimming facilities in the Phoenix Park. We should have them all over the city but it would be nice to have them in the Phoenix Park too. There are plenty of bathing facilities in the park but they are all confined to the Zoological Gardens. There are swimming facilities for animals but not for humans. Swimming facilities should be made available in the park financed completely by the State and, if this is what Deputy Tunney means, I fully endorse his remarks.

The Fine Gael spokesman has said that this may be the last time the Parliamentary Secretary will introduce this Estimate because of duplication of work and because of the number of Departments for which he works, the Departments of Lands, the Department of Agriculture and Fisheries, the Department of Education and the Department of Justice. They may end up eventually doing their own work. Some of us were pleased to see certain parts of the Estimate he introduced. The Office of Public Works maintains our national monuments. I know the Minister has not got much money at his disposal but it is marvellous to see the monuments which are reasonably well preserved and can be seen by those of us who tour around the country and by visitors.

It is wonderful to see the old castles and monuments and the old beehive huts in Kerry being reasonably well preserved. It is very discouraging to see a fine historic castle falling into decay when a little encouragement in the right quarter would ensure that it was maintained in reasonably good order. I believe that the Parliamentary Secretary is spending quite a large amount of money on the maintenance and restoration of the Royal Army Hospital in Kilmainham which, as I have said previously, is a monument to British rule in this country. I would much prefer to see this money being spent on the restoration of castles like that of Red Hugh O'Donnell in Donegal or Fiach Mac Hugh O'Byrne in Glenmalure than to see it spent on a monument which represents years of British rule and oppression.

I am sure the Minister is concerned about the recent escapades in the Hume Street area. It was most unfortunate that this situation arose. The Office of Public Works could play some part in this matter. The Georgian facades which will replace the existing ones are of dubious worth from the point of view of tourism. We have to decide whether by selling these buildings to foreign businessmen or, indeed, Irish businessmen they will be of greater value to our people than they would be as a tourist attraction.

The previous Minister for Local Government was not too keen on preserving Georgian buildings. I am sure the Parliamentary Secretary is aware of the large number of monuments around the country which deserve special attention. One such monument is St. Patrick's Island off Skerries. This island was bought by a businessman who began to export the stones from the little church and the other buildings on the island. Strong representations were made and he was stopped. Negotiations also went on in an attempt to sell the island to a group of hippies who wanted to set up a community there and whoever intervened in this matter deserves great credit.

Bord Fáilte and Aer Lingus advertise our country as a place of historical interest and the Office of Public Works should see to it that our monuments are preserved. An American came to Skerries to look for the graves of his grandparents only to find that the Office of Public Works had knocked down a wall on top of the graves. People have been found playing games on the graves and tombs at the Rock of Cashel and this is something that must be stopped.

What happens in America happens in Britain a few years later and in another few years happens in Ireland. In Britain, people with different cults have gone to graveyards and used carcases and cadavers for certain cultish rites. We must make sure that type of thing does not occur here. The Minister knows that in days gone by towers were built to prevent bodysnatchers from robbing graves. People at the Rock of Cashel have been taking bones out of tombs and exposing them. It is a horrifying thing to walk into a graveyard and see bones like that. I was offered a skeleton but I did not take it because of the implications involved. It was not a medical skeleton; it was just a decayed set of bones.

Not enough has been done to restore works of national importance. I know the Parliamentary Secretary is unhappy that he is not able to allocate more money for this work but as the Fine Gael spokesman said the Office of Public Works may disappear and be absorbed into another Department. Very often two or even three sanctions are required before a job can begin.

Mr. Lemass

I shall be presenting the Estimate for this Office in June, 1974.

Dr. Byrne

It gives me great pleasure to hear the Parliamentary Secretary say that. The Parliamentary Secretary in his Estimate speech told the House that the number of primary schools is decreasing because they are being amalgamated. I hope they are being amalgamated into good, clean, spacious and well-ventilated buildings.

The Office of Public Works also has to provide schools for mentally subnormal people. Road traffic accidents are on the increase and head injuries are the commonest form of injury. The resultant brain damage from a head injury means that more people are becoming mentally subnormal and therefore need special care and attention. The Parliamentary Secretary should be instructed by the Department of Health and the Department of Education to provide more facilities for these people. The work done by Dr. Barbara Stokes and Lady Goulding deserves special mention in this House. Were it not for the voluntary organisations the position would be terrible. It is heartbreaking to walk into a house where there is a mentally subnormal child and know that there is no proper place where the child can be sent for care and attention. Some of us come across such cases every day. These children can affect the whole household, to a very large degree.

A particular matter that has worried me for the past year is the present state of the Botanic Gardens, Glasnevin. The Parliamentary Secretary has responsibility for national monuments.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

The Botanic Gardens are the responsibility of the Department of Agriculture and Fisheries.

Dr. Byrne

I agree but they come into a particular reference I wish to make in regard to the memorial for John F. Kennedy in County Wexford. It appears that the Memorial Park in Wexford, which comes under the aegis of the Board of Works——

Mr. Lemass

No, the Department of Lands.

Dr. Byrne

That confirms the multiplicity of Departments involved with the Board of Works and one can appreciate the difficulty the Minister has in obtaining sanction for things he wishes to do. However, having ascertained that the Parliamentary Secretary had no hand, act or part in the fact that over 30 per cent of the plants from the Botanic Gardens have been removed to Wexford, I shall leave the subject.

Mr. Lemass

I should love to take over the John F. Kennedy Park if the Department of Lands would give it to me.

Dr. Byrne

I hope that if the Parliamentary Secretary did take it over he would leave the plants in the Botanic Gardens and not transfer them to Wexford for the benefit of American visitors. People on the north side of Dublin like to visit the Botanic Gardens and we would wish to retain them.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

The Deputy could make that point on the Estimate for Agriculture and Fisheries.

Dr. Byrne

Not all our national monuments are man-made. Some are monuments of nature and deserve special preservation. I have in mind, and I am quite sure this comes under the Board of Works, the plan to install a cable car between Killarney and the top of Mangerton Mountain in County Kerry. This would spoil the scenic beauty of the area for those, who like myself, have climbed many times to the top of Mangerton. We should hate to see this national monument defaced by the erection of an artificial device such as a cable car to carry people who are too lazy to walk to the top of the mountain. There are many monuments in Kerry that could well be bought over and preserved. I speak as one who has been visiting Kerry for some time. In many cases the local people have had to club together to buy certain sites in order to hold on to monuments of historical importance for us which we would like our children and grandchildren to see. I am quite sure the Minister, despite the number of Departments that have to be consulted, will proceed slowly but surely and get the sanctions he requires.

In particular reference to the Department of Justice and the instructions it gives to the Board of Works I want to mention Garda barracks. I am very glad that provision is being made for members of the Garda who were resident in substandard accommodation in Dublin Castle to be accommodated elsewhere now. I hope this trend will extend to any other group of gardaí who are in what they feel is substandard accommodation. There are many such groups throughout the country, particularly in the Phoenix Park area and Store Street. I should like the Minister to give this matter consideration.

A point that comes to mind is that there will be great difficulty in small Garda barracks down the country with the enforcement of alcoholic tests. Small Garda barracks are scattered throughout the country and the Minister for Justice has recently been telling us that these are non-viable and that their duties can be carried out by patrol cars and so on. One must imagine in some such small Garda station the possibility that a female driver suspected of being drunk will be asked to subject herself to the requirements of the law for prosecution under the new Act. Not all Garda barracks are equipped for this and I am sure some members of the Garda would be very embarrassed if they had to cope with this problem. While this matter is under the aegis of the Department of Justice, when the Board of Works is improving some of the buildings down the country I think the Parliamentary Secretary should mention this fact to the Minister for Justice who appears to have overlooked it in the introduction of the new law.

The cleaning of monuments and public buildings, such as the Custom House, Christ Church Cathedral and such places should be undertaken by the Board of Works. In fact, I believe this is the case.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

So far as State property is concerned.

Dr. Byrne

We have here the National Museum, the Zoological Museum, the Art Museum, the College of Art, the National Library, Earlsfort Terrace, and so on. All such places should be cleaner.

I should like to make clear that we would welcome the erection of monuments to patriots but at no stage should anyone be under any illusion that the patriots came from one particular side of the House, as has been intimated in past weeks. Let it be quite clear that this party is proud of the patriots it has produced.

I wish to refer to a statement made by Deputy Davern as reported at column 984, volume 247 of the Official Report. He refers to the lifts in this House. I think this is typical of the attitude of certain Deputies on the opposite side of the House. He said:

The lifts are too slow in this House. As the Parliamentary Secretary is aware we nearly missed a Division because of them last night.

Is it the most important thing to Deputies on the opposite side that the lifts in this House should be fast because they nearly missed a Division and would not run down a few flights of steps? Is it once again restating that the most important thing to the Deputies on the opposite benches is the majority passing through the gate at the time of a Division? What about the poor people in Ballymun whose lifts are breaking down continually, who have to live 14 storeys up? Then we have Deputy Davern referring to the installation of two more lifts in Leinster House, and I quote:

Two more lifts could be added. If there are 20 Deputies on the fifth floor and also 20 on the second floor, all wanting to get down in the lift, they will miss a Division.

That is very well worked out. It is a pity that Deputy Davern and some of his colleagues, the group of people who sanctioned these particular buildings on the north side of this city, did not consider these facts at that time.

An Ceann Comhairle

The Parliamentary Secretary has no responsibility for the lifts in Ballymun.

Dr. Byrne

I wish to continue with the quotation because I think you took me up wrongly, Sir:

I hope it will not be our side that will be caught in the lift when this happens.

Is this not indicative of the attitude of the Members on the opposite side of the House, that they continue to think of their comfort, continue to think of having a majority in this House, of having the facility of lifts to take them up three or four flights of steps when people are subjected to walking 40 flights of steps in Ballymun when the lifts are out of order, because they are the cheapest and most inferior type of lifts that were ever made?

An Ceann Comhairle

That question does not arise in this Estimate.

Dr. Byrne

I do not think the Parliamentary Secretary should consider the installation of two more lifts, perhaps, nearer the stairs or nearer the kitchen in this House until the people living in certain parts of Ireland—if that includes Ballymun and St. Michael's estate let it include them— have been provided with the lift facilities to which I have referred.

Mr. Lemass

I may reject a request but I never ignore one.

Dr. Byrne

I have nothing further to add except to congratulate the Parliamentary Secretary on the work he has done, despite the objections which have obviously come from the mohairsuited Taca men, in providing a municipal golf course in the Phoenix Park.

Mr. Desmond

I propose to speak briefly on this Estimate. I must again profess my disappointment that we should be faced with the conventional Estimate from the Parliamentary Secretary in respect of the Office of Public Works, conventional in the sense that, having been here one year and having spoken on last year's Estimate, I would have hoped that, in the interim, the very important recommendations contained in the Devlin Report in respect of the future role of the Office of Public Works would be in the process of full implementation. It is a matter of regret that as yet the Department of Finance have not relinquished the responsibility which they hold directly for the Office of Public Works. I would have hoped that by now, instead of Dáil Éireann being engaged in strife and internal difficulties over the past few months, we would have been debating the integration of the Office of Public Works with a new Government Department, the Department of Public Services. That transformation is urgently needed. Therefore, we must place our regret on the record and hope that by this time next year the Parliamentary Secretary will have declared himself redundant and will have rationalised himself into the new Department. I do not propose to elaborate on that because it is very amply documented in the report of the public services committee and because I expressed my views on last year's Estimate and I want to avoid repetition.

I congratulate the Parliamentary Secretary on providing a further £3 million for the building of primary schools, which I consider the most important part of the Estimate presented to us. I had been fearful that with the stringency imposed by the Minister for Finance in relation to the public capital programme there would have been a cut-back in this vital sphere of public services. The Office of Public Works are now dealing with some 4,200 national schools as against 4,800 national schools when the programme of amalgamation and centralisation began. This reduction of 600 schools will be of invaluable assistance to the Board of Works and in the education of our children in lessening the chaotic work load which the board faces in relation to school maintenance and the building of primary schools.

Notwithstanding the very substantial improvements that have taken place in the past half decade in relation to our primary schools, and that last year there were 56 new buildings, and some 19,000 pupil places were provided, apart from 6,000 extra places provided in prefabricated units, the conditions of very many national schools are still quite insanitary, primitive and outmoded, as well as being overcrowded. Perhaps because of the tremendous work done in the past five years an air of complacency, or an air of euphoria is developing in relation to the environment in which our primary school pupils are taught. We must bear in mind that as of now one out of every four of our national schools is not even equipped with electric light. This is a damning indictment of the position of our national schools. Roughly 1,000 of our 4,200 national schools do not have electric light. This is something which places the tremendous work already done in proper general perspective.

We must place on record the fact that still one out of every three national schools, about 1,500 out of 4,200, are heated by means of open fires. It is only when one realises that there are schools which are heated by means of open fires, which have no lighting and which are without adequate sanitary arrangements, that one can appreciate the tremendous backlog which still exists in regard to providing as a first priority for children attending primary schools in their own areas well-equipped classrooms which have decent lighting, heating and play facilities. As we enter the 'seventies we have not achieved that level of a civilised educated society. There is a rather disturbing complacency in society in regard to primary schools. I do not think any section of the community responsible for that state of affairs can be exempt.

For a long time the Department of Education seem to have regarded the matter as being outside their sphere and as within the responsibility of the school managers; the school managers seemed to regard it as being outside their sphere of responsibility and as being the responsibility of the State. Very often the teachers did not revolt against the conditions in which they taught the young students when they might have revolted. In recent years they have protested in no uncertain terms against some of the conditions to which they were subjected. The parents, by not visiting such schools, and in many cases not caring about the conditions in them, were equally to blame. We cannot therefore simply place the blame at the door of the Office of Public Works. The responsibility for the situation is equally shared.

One of the difficulties under which the Office of Public Works labour is that they are caught up in the classic governmental-quasi-bureaucratic style of attitude in relation to a great deal of the excellent work they have done in connection with national parks, public buildings and monuments. It is a tragedy that as a matter of policy the Office of Public Works do not bring to the notice of the public the tremendous heritage which they have under their care; that they do not publicise this, make the public aware of the tremendous work they are doing and of the availability and accessibility of a great deal of the activities and services which they are providing. We rather regard the Office of Public Works as being a kind of benevolent gatekeeper looking after public property and our heritage rather than opening it up and ensuring that everybody avails of it.

There is an unfortunate myth in this country that the education of children, adolescents and adults begins and ends in the classroom-or, if you like, begins and ends at the television set, watching ancient monuments being portrayed in a few shots. One of the most educative and elevating processes, from an historical and cultural point of view, is for a young person to be given the opportunity to read of, to visit and to appreciate our ancient monuments, public buildings, national parks, which are now growing in numbers, and our museums—if indeed our museums were fit to be visited. We can be rightly critical of many of the facilities provided in museums, the manner in which museum staffs are treated and facilities provided for them. However, while monuments, parks and our heritage generally are being availed of increasingly it is obvious that a great deal more promotional work could be done by the Office of Public Works to bring them into the public consciousness. This applies particularly in the urban areas in which people live and have a dormitory type existence without ever getting into the countryside or even being aware of the tremendous wealth of heritage in their own urban areas.

I would urge the Parliamentary Secretary to ensure that there is full and effective liaison between himself, the Department of Local Government and the various planning authorities to ensure that the environments surrounding these monuments and so forth, are not disfigured as many of them have been in the recent past, with a rash of advertisement hoardings.

Garish public buildings are often found in close proximity to a national monument and sometimes within 200 or 300 yards of such a monument planning permission is given for a hotel which totally clashes with that monument. Therefore, there should be full and effective liaison between the Parliamentary Secretary and the various planning authorities to ensure that stringent controls are introduced in these aspects of environmental facilities.

I would also urge the Parliamentary Secretary to develop further the acquisitive role of his Office in conjunction with the Department of Local Government. Many parts of the country, particularly lands surrounding our rivers, parklands and many areas of foreshore are closed off by private speculative development of lands acquired under dubious circumstances in our historic past. Therefore, as a matter of deliberate public policy, an inventory should be made of the river and foreshore areas. Some of those areas of high aesthetic interest for our people are closed to them.

If we wish to talk about party political attitudes, I would say that public openness is one matter which we, as socialists, would regard as one of our priorities. After all, Labour Party policy is supposed to be about priorities and, for me, that is one particular aspect to which I attach very considerable importance. These areas I have mentioned should not be the private preserve of any individual with enough money to acquire land for himself and his family before it is generally developed. These are matters of public policy and do not cut across any of the sectional concepts which some people in this House seem to have in relation to the exclusive role of private property.

I do not propose to dwell unduly on the Hume Street fracas but suffice it to say that I agree and support the strong comments rightly made by Deputy FitzGerald during the early stages of this debate and made by Deputy Keating for the Labour Party. This, too, was a matter of public policy. There was an enormous amount of political vacillation; indeed, the Office of Public Works were being manipulated in the context of political ploys, not necessarily in any speculative sense but because politicians made of that Office a lapdog for those of them who wished to use it for their own particular ends.

Those young people involved in the Hume Street affair, while they acted contrary to the law-they did so without any of the overt extremes of protestism-had a real concern that an elementary part of our cultural heritage should be preserved. Certainly some of the more destructive criticisms made of them were not justified. I wonder how many Deputies in their youth and adolescence would have had the moral courage to do what those young people did in the knowledge of the inherent risks involved? In that regard some of the more despicable aspects of the strong arm tactics that have caused a certain amount of public disquiet——

An Ceann Comhairle

That does not arise. We are talking about the two houses in Hume Street that are Government property.

Mr. Desmond

That is something that warrants the attention of both the Parliamentary Secretary and the Minister for Justice.

In conclusion, I should like to ask the Parliamentary Secretary if he would inform us in a progress report of the feasibility of providing a centre for blind people in one of the Dublin parks. I was very impressed last year when the Parliamentary Secretary indicated that an area would be set aside in a Dublin park for blind people where they could move with ease, where there would be special seats and amenities for them, flowers that could be identified by smell alone, as well as others which could be identified by nameplates in braille. I should like to see this type of centre being developed not only in Dublin but also in Cork or Limerick.

In so far as the Office are responsible for our National Museum, I would urge the Parliamentary Secretary, in consultation with the Department of Education, to endeavour to transform the museum into the type of museum that we all wish to see in Dublin—a museum of a national character with adequate space facilities. Admittedly, this would be very costly but when one considers the tremendous contribution that our National Museum is making to this country, when one considers the tremendous amount of work being done there by their staff, working in very difficult conditions, the cost, whatever it might be, would not seem too great. I submit that the Department of Education have behaved abominably towards the National Museum. The Parliamentary Secretary might usefully undertake some elementary innovations in that regard.

I support in large measure the comments made by Deputy Tunney in relation to the Phoenix Park. The north side of Dublin is greatly lacking in environmental amenities but the south west is even worse off in this regard. If one wishes to see a classic example of bad planning, one has only to go to Dublin South West to see the chaos that has been caused by bad planning in that area. There should be a large public swimming pool in the Phoenix Park. In my opinion, this would be more welcome than a municipal golf course. We are more concerned with the ability of our children to learn to swim and I can think of no cheaper way than to build a large international swimming pool in the Phoenix Park. There is enough space there for that.

In relation to Leinster House, I suppose it would be inappropriate to pass this Estimate without saying something about it, since the extension cost so much to build and since this House costs to much to renovate and run. I would strongly urge the Parliamentary Secretary, in the interests of public accessibility, to do something about the quite dreadful entry at Kildare Street for members of the public who wish to come and see their public representatives. The front gate, the reception area and the quite miserable building in which members of the public have to wait is certainly a sorry spectacle, especially in the winter months, as the entrance to a National Parliament. Not only should we have in Leinster House pictures of the men who fought in our Independence Movement in this country, but many other pictures on loan from the National Gallery should be displayed throughout the House.

On a purely parochial note, I would urge the Parliamentary Secretary to do something about the visitors' bar in Leinster House. At the risk of being accused of using unparliamentary language, I consider it to be a terrible dump and a most depressing place for any member of the public to visit or indeed for any Deputy to use—not that many of us find the time to frequent it much. I look forward to seeing an improvement in it.

The only remaining comment for me to make is to thank the Parliamentary Secretary for the considerable interest he has displayed in strictly public affairs in his Department. He is in a very politically sensitive office and I have found in the contacts I have had with his Department that he and his staff have been tremendously helpful. I have also found the Parliamentary Secretary to be tremendously concerned with his own area of responsibility. As such he deserves public support and public commendation even though, with the establishment of the new Public Services Department, he may be declared redundant. Nevertheless, this Estimate is worthy of support.

Mr. O'Hara

I should like to join the last speaker in complimenting the Parliamentary Secretary and his staff on their courtesy to me. It is not very often I have to trouble the Parliamentary Secretary, but whenever I communicate with his office by letter or phone I find his staff are most courteous and are very concerned to help. As a Deputy from the former North Mayo area and now for the new constituency of East Mayo, I have found the members of the Parliamentary Secretary's staff—the engineering staff, the clerical staff and so on—engaged on the Moy drainage scheme most courteous. I appreciate they had many difficulties to overcome—indeed some of them were passed to me to try to solve —and I fully understand that sometimes the staff need great patience to be able to discharge their duties calmly and coolly. As far as I know, they have always done this.

It is my duty in this House, having referred to the Moy drainage scheme, to thank the present and past Parliamentary Secretaries for that scheme. There is no denying the fact that it has brought great benefit to Mayo and to parts of Sligo and perhaps also to other adjoining counties, not alone from the point of view of the amount of employment it gave—I am not quite sure what the cost of the scheme is up to date but I understand it is well over £5 million —but also because of the thousands of acres of land which have been reclaimed as a result of that work and the many hundreds of acres of bog as well. It provided direct employment for 500 workers and it also gave indirect employment to hundreds of others.

This scheme has certainly brought great benefit to County Mayo. Having said that, however, I am concerned about a statement made by the Parliamentary Secretary in his introductory speech that the scheme is coming to a close at an early date. As far as I remember, he said it was going to end in the present year. I have already said that this scheme has brought many benefits to Mayo. It will be appreciated by the House that a scheme of this nature means a great deal not alone to the counties in which it is carried out but also to the national economy. I am sure that with the passage of time the farmers in Mayo who have benefited from this major drainage scheme, who have been enabled to till more land and to rear more cattle, will give to this nation in return a far greater sum than has been spent on the scheme to date.

There are a number of minor rivers, the drainage of which must still be undertaken and therefore I am concerned about the statement of the Parliamentary Secretary. When speaking on the Estimate the Parliamentary Secretary said that the scheme was coming to a close. I was speaking to the engineering staff of the Office of Public Works in Ballina some time ago. I inquired what the progress was regarding the survey of the minor rivers and streams. That staff informed me that a survey had been carried out over a very wide area in the Moy catchment region with a view to ascertaining what other streams or rivers could usefully be drained. They told me that after inspecting and processing these they would know how many more schemes of a minor nature should be undertaken.

I am aware that the work has progressed and that the main channel of the River Moy has been cleared. The people I represent are very concerned about the tributaries. Yesterday evening I was talking to a group of farmers in an area near Foxford. They pointed out that they were worried, not alone about the drainage of land but also about the drainage of some streams or rivers in that area which, if undertaken, would drain vast areas of bog. Traditionally these people have used turf for their fires. They have open hearths in their homes. Quite naturally it is of great benefit to them to have the bogs drained. For that reason I repeat that I am concerned about the drainage. If we are to get real benefit from the drainage schemes, which already have brought benefit to many people, it is absolutely necessary that we should continue to drain many of the minor rivers.

I do not expect the Office of Public Works to do all the drainage schemes. I have seen proposals and have heard of schemes which could not possibly be undertaken. It would not be logical to argue that they should be undertaken. The economics of such schemes would be unsound. A scheme to drain ten to 15 acres might be suggested, costing perhaps £80,000. Similarly people might request drainage of a bog which was cutaway and would not last for many years.

I should like to impress on the Parliamentary Secretary and his officials the importance of carrying out drainage of the streams and rivers which in their opinion would be worth doing. We all know that it is impossible to satisfy everybody. In County Mayo a considerable number of our people must rely on casual employment because of the small size of their holdings and a case can be made for providing employment on drainage work for these people. Such work would give a return to the nation as a whole.

I know I am not at liberty to speak on the Estimate for the Department of Lands now, but in the debate on that Estimate the cost of migrating one family from Mayo to Meath or Westmeath was discussed. The figure of £12,000 or £14,000 was mentioned. Many smallholders would be quite happy to remain in their native counties provided they had employment locally. I know that from discussing their problems with them. The work on the Moy drainage scheme, or at least on the tributaries, should not be brought to a close in the present year. It should be continued. Many of the schemes which have been examined by the engineers of the Office of Public Works should be undertaken. It will not be necessary to have large machines engaged on this work. Something in the nature of 10 RBs would be quite useful and suitable for the type of drainage work which now remains to be done.

I plead with the Parliamentary Secretary to change his mind on the proposal to bring the Moy drainage scheme to a close. I ask him to have the work continued on these tributaries of the River Moy. If the Parliamentary Secretary does that, immeasurable benefit will accrue to the people both from the point of view of making more acres of land available to the smallholders and also of making available acres of bog which can be used to provide fuel.

There was never great emphasis on the economics of their operations in the Office of Public Works. I do not say that in a derogatory way or to belittle the officials. They are not noted for such emphasis. Often they gave employment to people who were not very well qualified for the work. When the Moy drainage scheme started in Mayo a few men were recruited and took up work. These men were glad to get employment but they had no worthwhile experience of the work. It could be said, on economic lines, that others would be more efficient and better able to do the work and would give a greater output than some of these men.

At the same time, I have watched the progress of the scheme and I have seen men advancing in knowledge of the work and moving on, as the scheme moved on. They are now experts in their particular lines after a very short time. That is very much to their credit. These men, when they got a little training, were able to progress and to take on works of a major nature, even the driving of machines and lorries of which they had very little knowledge at the beginning. I am appealing, therefore, to the Parliamentary Secretary to change his mind on the question of closing down the Moy drainage in the present year and to continue with smaller machines to finish the job that was started many years ago and thereby bring great benefits to our people.

A major operation of that kind is a slow process. One meets many obstacles not alone from farmers but also from mill owners, people concerned with fishing and so on. It takes a long time to get over all the difficulties. A public authority like the Office of Public Works must be very careful because all the time solicitors' letters have been flowing into the office by the gross or by the ton. The lawyers must have made hay on the Moy drainage scheme according to the number of letters that I have heard have been sent to the Office. A public authority must be very careful and protect its own interests and not run into difficulties.

I have had experience of acting on behalf of small farmers, mainly making representations in the matter of compensation. I have fround the Office of Public Works quite reasonable, generally speaking, provided the claimants were not seeking fantastic sums. There are still a number of claims outstanding. The claims were divided, in the main, into two categories—the straight cases where there were no buildings or other involvements and where people were paid a certain sum for the land and the cases where there were side issues like buildings and in which difficulties arose. Some of these difficult claims have been dragged on for quite a while. I would ask the Parliamentary Secretary to try to have these claims cleared up as soon as possible. He should remember that the few pounds compensation is well due to these people because in the case of those along the main river, while some of their land was reclaimed, damage was done to portions of their land, unfortunately, in most cases, to their very best land.

I have come across problems in regard to bridges over streams or rivers particularly in the Kiltimagh, Knock and Claremorris areas where some bridges are still to be erected. This is not practicable at the moment because of inability to procure cement. It will be appreciated, however, that where there was an old wooden structure, what they call a "kesh" in the country, across a drain or stream, it has been torn up by the operations of the machinery and this can cause grave hardship and inconvenience to people who may have to make a detour to take home their hay or turf or for some other reason. Representations have been made to me particularly in regard to the Kiltimagh, Knock and Claremorris areas in connection with some of these bridges which were to be constructed and I want to direct the Parliamentary Secretary's attention to these problems and to ask him to try to have them cleared up as early as possible.

An Ceann Comhairle

This would seem to be a matter for the Department of Local Government and the county council.

Mr. O'Hara

With respect, I am personally aware that these are not. It might surprise you to know that I supplied the gravel for some of them and I got my cheque from the Office of Public Works. For that reason, I am perfectly satisfied that the ones to which I refer are the direct responsibility of the Office of Public Works.

An Ceann Comhairle

They may have been at the time but changes have occurred since then on minor employment schemes and rural improvement schemes.

Mr. O'Hara

With respect, if you check you will find that I am right. I do not want to argue. This is arterial drainage as distinct from what we used to call minor relief schemes. They are the responsibility of the Office of Public Works. It is true to say that in some cases there is joint responsibility of the local authority and the Office of Public Works, for instance, Pontoon Bridge, Muckanagh Bridge near Castlebar and Ballinacur Bridge in my own parish of Killasser.

Deputy Kenney, the Fine Gael spokesman on public works, referred to a problem at pontoon Bridge. Underneath the bridge, where drainage work has taken place, a rock or two has shown up between Lough Conn and Lough Cullen. The level of the lakes was lowered to such an extent that this has happened. The rocks may be hidden by a few inches of water and boats have been damaged. That part of the country is world famous for its fishing. It is not very nice for either our own people or anybody else to find their boats damaged as they come under the bridge at Pontoon. I join with Deputy Kenny in asking the Parliamentary Secretary to draw the attention of his engineering staff to those problems.

On the question of school buildings, I am aware that in County Mayo quite a number of schools have been renovated and heating has been installed. There are still many schools that need repair. Of course this work could proceed if sufficient provision were made in the Estimate for it. Progress is reasonably good. It is important to bear in mind that if a school gets attention in good time it may be saved. It is a well-known fact that many children are reluctant to leave their old national school and avail of transport to distant places. If some of these schools had central heating or some type of electric heating installed for the winter and if proper toilets were provided the parents and the children would be very happy about them. Where this can be done I should like to see it done because not alone is the school the place where children get education but it is also a community centre in many regions where there is perhaps no local hall or other suitable building.

The Parliamentary Secretary referred to harbours and to work at Killala. On behalf of the people of that area I should like to express appreciation that something is being done at last by the Office of Public Works to improve the piers and harbours. During the years, areas such as this have been totally neglected and it is heartening to see that even a small sum of money is being made available for improvement of the Killala harbour.

I should like to see similar work carried out in County Mayo where the need exists. The improvement of harbours means that there is an opportunity given to people to stay in those areas and have a decent livelihood. Such improvement works will give a quick return and I should be very glad in the coming year to see the Killala harbour further extended. From consultations I have had with people in the area I understand that considerable benefit would accrue to Killala if this work were carried out and I know that the engineers who have devoted much time to this project would willingly give their advice. I am concerned about the part-time work it would provide, thereby helping to keep people in the region.

The matter of Garda Síochána barracks has been mentioned by many Deputies. Some of the stations lack toilet facilities, they are inadequately heated and are totally unsuitable. The use of a paint brush on the exteriors would help quite a lot——

An Ceann Comhairle

That would be a matter for the Department of Justice.

Mr. O'Hara

I am merely making the comment in passing. We know that the Office of Public Works are merely the building agent but perhaps they could whisper along the line that the use of paint and a brush would considerably improve the appearance of the buildings.

In my county we have a very famous building, Ballintubber Abbey, which is visited each year by some 25,000 people. I should like to join with Deputy Kenny in expressing our thanks to the engineering staffs and others in the Office of Public Works for the wonderful work they have done. Much remains to be done but with the necessary co-operation and goodwill it can be carried out expeditiously. It is rare to find a sixth century building and, apart from its value as a place of worship for the local people, the abbey is known throughout the world. We should do our utmost to preserve historic buildings and the work that has been done in this case is a credit to all concerned.

Mr. Sherwin

There are a number of items mentioned in the Parliamentary Secretary's statement to which I should like to refer. The Parliamentary Secretary mentioned that last year the Department of Education authorised managers to make their own arrangements with regard to central heating and sanitary facilities in schools and that this authorisation has been availed of by a considerable number. Although some of the schools may be closed in the coming years, it is the responsibility of the managers to install the necessary facilities for the benefit of those now attending them.

The provision of schools for mentally and physically handicapped children is welcome. However, rather than siting the schools far away from the homes of the children I should prefer to see them located nearer their homes and perhaps in this connection the extension of existing national schools could be investigated. I know that good work is being done in schools which cater for mentally handicapped children and I should welcome the provision of additional money to help them in this task.

I was disappointed that the Fine Gael Party should have moved that the Estimate be referred back for reconsideration. There are many good points in the Estimate and we should not do anything that would delay implementation of the worthwhile projects outlined. I would urge Deputies on all sides of the House to be responsible in this matter.

In the Estimate provision is made for a central computing unit for Departments that do not have computer facilities and the information that the unit will be located in my constituency of Inchicore is most welcome. In the past we have had to utilise computing facilities at high expense. This was an undesirable practice and I am glad that the matter is now being rectified.

I am disappointed that the State has not sought to provide its own Government offices. If we were to build our own office blocks for the various Departments we would not have to pay high rents to developers. In the long term it would certainly represent a saving and it would lighten the burden on the ordinary taxpayer. This may not be relevant on this particular Vote, but I would suggest to the Parliamentary Secretary that in future the building of office blocks to house Civil Service personnel should be undertaken by the State, thereby obviating the necessity to pay rent ad infinitum for office accommodation.

The provision of new Garda stations is a matter that affects my constituency. I understand no living accommodation will be provided in the proposed Garda station at Ballyfermot. This is not a desirable development in the more densely populated areas. If a situation were to arise in which the total manpower of the station would be required the job of searching out colleagues would be much more difficult.

An Ceann Comhairle

That would be a matter for the Department of Justice.

Mr. Sherwin

I just refer to it. I make the point that it would be much more desirable to have living accommodation in Garda stations.

The Parliamentary Secretary referred to the establishment of a new branch in the Office of Public Works, the National Parks and Monuments Branch; this branch was set up to enable the commissioners to co-ordinate their work in relation to the management of national parks, the preservation of national monuments and the control of navigation on the River Shannon. The Parliamentary Secretary said that these three services have merged and developed their cultural, recreational and educational aspects so as to provide for the ever-increasing public demands which will be made on them in the years ahead. Here I think immediately of the proposed extension to the Phoenix Park. This extension will be very beneficial from the point of view of my constituency. There has been some emphasis on the provision of a public nine hole golf course. I should hope there would be a great many more facilities provided, such as tennis, both lawn and hard court, bowling, pitch and putt. There are approximately 300 acres to be developed. The extension would be centrally situated and easily accessible from the new housing estates.

We could have a first class swimming pool of Olympic standard in which our swimmers could train for the Olympics. Rowing is another recreation for which facilities could be made available. Bowling and rowing have up to this had a certain snob value. People living in the so-called workingclass areas are just as much entitled to participate in these sports as are those in other social strata. The Parliamentary Secretary should consider the Long Meadows. For a long number of years now that part of the River Liffey has been the venue of the various rowing clubs. Facilities should be provided so that rowing would be not merely a participant sport but a spectator sport as well. A great deal of work could be done in this area to make up the deficiencies that exist in the various building schemes. In my own locality young boys are booked by the Garda for playing handball on the gable ends of shops. Handball is believed to be a very old Gaelic sport. There is no reason why these youths should not have facilities provided for them in the proposed extension. Priority was given to housing; now the time has come when priority must be given to the provision of amenities for both young and old. There is no reason why there should not be a public golf course. Anyone who wants to play golf should be enabled to play it. It is beyond the reach of thousands at the moment because of the exorbitant entrance fees and the necessity to have a recommendation to the various clubs.

With regard to the condition of offices generally, a great deal could be done to improve the appearance of these offices if a cleaning service were engaged periodically. That would cut down the cost of painting and decorating. The hundreds of letters received in support of the proposals made with regard to an extension of the Phoenix Park are an indication of the popularity of the suggestion and the public demand for this proposal.

The £137,000 required by the Department of Posts and Telegraphs includes a sorting office in the Ballyfermot area as well as new post offices in other areas throughout the country. I find it hard to understand why the Department have not provided a post office in the Ballyfermot area where there are some 45,000 people.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

That would be a matter for the Estimate for the Department of Posts and Telegraphs. The Office of Public Works is only an agency for the other Departments.

Mr. Sherwin

This site has not been finished. Certainly, the cement strike has delayed it but, even at this late stage, perhaps the Parliamentary Secretary would suggest to the Department of Posts and Telegraphs that a post office be embodied in the provision of a sorting office for Ballyfermot.

This year's Estimate is almost £300,000 higher than that for last year. I condemn the action of the Fine Gael Party in moving to refer the Estimate back for reconsideration and I recommend that it be passed.

Dr. Browne

I support the points made by Deputy Sherwin. I wonder if he knows that the site he is talking about was acquired in 1905. It is said that the mills of God grind slow: the same could be said about the Office of Public Works. Anyhow, the proposal in regard to the development in the Phoenix Park is to be welcomed. I have no objection to a golf course there but I should be very much more in favour of the ambitious proposal outlined by Deputy Sherwin of a community centre with extensive recreational facilities—a swimming pool, as suggested by Deputy Desmond; an assembly hall for discussions, debates and public meetings; all the other facilities that one expects now in big housing areas but which are not to be found there in very many cases.

A great defect in our planning over the years has been that not enough attention was paid to the provision of these types of amenities in densely-populated areas such as we now have in Ballymun, Ballyfermot, Finglas and so on. Consider the position in Dublin South-East where the wealthy people live. Herbert Park is beautiful. It has tennis courts, a bowling green, a pond, a children's playground, trees, fountains, flower gardens. Altogether, it is delightful. One does not often find these types of amenities in predominantly working-class housing areas. As Deputy Sherwin pointed out, this inevitably leads to youngsters playing handball against gable ends and then finding themselves in trouble with gardaí, and all sorts of possible repercussions. I am aware that the Parliamentary Secretary is sympathetic to all kinds of things: I trust he will consider favourably a really ambitious proposal for the development, in the area in question, of a community centre with extensive recreational facilities rather than merely a golf course. Is the Minister responsible for Merrion Square?

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

No.

Dr. O'Connell

It is a pity he is not.

Dr. Browne

I should like to see it developed in the same way as Mountjoy Square. If he has not responsibility, however, he has not and that is that.

For many years my Parliamentary Questions seemed to elicit the information that there was very little reduction in the number of primary schools required to be built but latterly there has been quite a substantial improvement in that regard. I welcome that improvement and congratulate the Department on its achievement. The Parliamentary Secretary points out that changing needs in primary schools require a changed approach to planning. I am glad he accepts that fact. Most of the national schools which many of us attended were strictly functional: the child went in, sat down, learned his lessons and went off. Those of us who attended national school and, later, other kinds of schools, public schools, will be aware of the superior amenities in the latter-mentioned schools compared with those available to the poorer children in the national school.

I am glad the Minister is examining the diversification of facilities available at national schools and is moving towards the provision of facilities there which the average youngster gets in the better kind of school such as Blackrock, Belvedere, Clongowes Wood and so on. It is wrong that there should be the two qualities of education not alone on the academic side but also on the amenities side at those two types of schools. The more the curriculum is altered, the more it becomes comprehensive. The more extensive and diverse the curriculum, the greater the need will be for different kinds of accommodation — facilities for the teaching of art, music and so on; facilities for discussions and debates; very much better recreational facilities than are at present available in our primary schools. I trust the Minister will not stop at the few facilities he mentioned but will try to bring our national school as close as possible to what the wealthy child tends to enjoy in the better type of school. There should not be this discrepancy between the two. The Parliamentary Secretary said that 56 new buildings have been provided and 36 major improvements. My recollection is that something like 600 schools required to be rebuilt. I have no idea what the present figure is.

Dr. O'Connell

It is very much higher.

Dr. Browne

Can the Parliamentary Secretary say when it is proposed to deal with the backlog of schools which it has been decided are unfit for use as schools? Proceeding at the rate of 56 new buildings last year strikes me as a fairly leisurely rate and I should like to know whether it is, in fact. When I came back into the Dáil I found that there was quite a dramatic reduction in the number of schools requiring to be built but it was still a fairly substantial figure.

If we build at the rate of 50 new schools a year it seems to me that there might be in the region of a ten year wait before the school building programme is completed, that is, to replace the existing derelicts, not to mention the ones which will fall derelict during that period. That ten year period would be the whole school life cycle of a youngster. So, there are many youngsters who may have to go through school in existing schools which are unfit for use as schools because of the apparently slow progress which the Parliamentary Secretary is now making in getting rid of the backlog of derelict schools.

I never understood why it was necessary for us to go in for the prefabricated unit type school. A prefabricated unit is certainly not a long-lasting job. One of the good things that can be said about the Office of Public Works is that its permanent schools are usually quite remarkably good both qualitatively and aesthetically. Architecturally they are very good and also the physical facilities made available and the quality of the facilities available are usually quite outstanding. I have never understood why it was necessary for us to go in for the rather emergency type decision to put up these prefabricated buildings which have a relatively short life.

We all associate prefabrication with war time devastation, bombing, emergencies, no time, no materials, no labour, or a shortage of labour, or one or other of these reasons, which surely have not existed in the community since, say, ten years after the last war. I hope the Minister will not allow this policy to continue of building prefabricated schools rather than the permanent quality buildings for which the Office of Public Works has become justifiably well known throughout the country, and that he will try to replace any existing buildings by permanent-style buildings.

From working in many hospitals over many years I know well what happens to the emergency building which is thrown up to last for ten or 15 years. About 40 or 60 years later it is still there and it becomes a slum pretty rapidly because it is left there and nobody does anything to bring about any great change. I am glad to hear that the Parliamentary Secretary is approaching this in a less strictly functional way than his predecessors approached the problem and I hope he will look at it in an even more revolutionary way.

Again on the point I made about the Office of Public Works grinding slowly, I was involved in the discussions about the building of a John F. Kennedy Memorial Hall. We were to make a tour of the Continent to have a look at the various opera houses and concert halls throughout the Continent. I did not go on it, but the interesting thing is that we who had not been through the war and who had not suffered any war damage at all were going back to Germany, Austria, France, Britain, Denmark and Holland, these countries which had suffered an enormous amount of devastation as a result of bombing, and that they had got around to rebuilding not only an enormous number of houses and community centres and other public amenities of one kind or another but had also insisted, above all in places like Berlin, Munich, Dresden, Cologne and Coventry in Britain, on building their concert halls and their opera houses. Here we are still voting something like £33,000 for three memorials which means that there is not a hope of any serious progress being made on the John F. Kennedy Concert Hall for a long time to come. That is a serious comment on our values in Ireland on questions of culture.

I do not know if many people know that we have not got a concert hall worthy of the name in this great capital city of Dublin. We have the extraordinary position that we have a number of greyhound stadia, a number of horseracing stadia of one kind or another and a national boxing stadium, but we have no concert hall. The position is so bad that when the Radio Éireann Orchestra hold a concert in which they try to cover their expenses, they must turn to the National Stadium which is a boxing stadium and try to hold it there. One has the humiliating experience of listening to people like that grand artist Charles Lynch, Our Lady's Choral Society or the Radio Éireann Orchestra trying to do their best in these appallingly substandard conditions from the point of view of making music at any rate.

The alternative to the National Stadium is the St. Francis Xavier Hall, in which Sir John Barbarolli recently played. It is good that that hall is there but it is not adequate for concerts at the level at which I am glad to say the Radio Éireann Orchestra hold concerts, a very high level. The facilities available to them are well below the standard they deserve. Concerts are frequently held in the St. Francis Xavier Hall a few days after a bingo session. The artists find themselves ankle deep in ice cream cartons and bingo tickets. I should like to know what the projected time schedule is for commencement and completion of the Kennedy Memorial Hall. It was during the lifetime of the second last Dáil that I looked at the draft plans for this hall, but it will surprise me if the foundation stone is laid before next year. This new hall is urgently needed because our cultural pursuits as a nation are increasing and expanding. People are becoming more and more interested in classical concerts and this demand should be catered for. I realise that more urgent needs have taken precedence in the past but the time has come for a concert hall to be built. It is notable that the priority of most central eastern European countries was to restore the cultural amenities of their society immediately after the war.

I support Deputy Desmond's plea about the museum. I understand that the Parliamentary Secretary has some responsibility for it. The museum is filled with most beautiful items of gold, copper, brass, furniture and all kinds of art but everyone acknowledges the fact that it is badly displayed. I believe very much more could be done with our museum if the Parliamentary Secretary could find the money to expand the facilities there. I understand that the Royal Dublin Hospital in Kilmainham is to be made into a folk museum. I should be interested to hear from the Parliamentary Secretary what exactly he has in mind and when he thinks it will be open for visitors.

Deputy Desmond mentioned the wonderful flowering of the National Gallery under James White. It is astonishing to see what has happened to the National Gallery during the three or four years he has been in control of it. Admittedly, money came to the gallery under the Bernard Shaw bequest but it is a place where one can be proud to take visitors.

The Parliamentary Secretary referred to preservation and conservation. We recently had a discussion on this subject, which is debated periodically. The last time this subject was debated was when the late Deputy Seán Dunne introduced a motion about the Georgian houses in Fitzwilliam Square. All of us have a great regard for this city and would like to see it preserved to the extent that that is desirable and in the public interest. At that time I said I did not agree with the attempt to preserve Gloucester Street. The facades were preserved but the amenities provided in the houses were unsuitable for people to live in. These houses very quickly began to look like slums as if no money had been spent on their preservation at all. In my opinion the Gloucester Street experiment was a complete failure. The alternative to attempted preservation was demolition but I did not approve of that course either.

The new ESB building in Upper Fitzwilliam Street was supposed to resemble the Georgian facade coming down to Merrion Square. I doubt if anybody could seriously suggest that this building is anything more than an ugly, unimaginative building which contrasts completely with the beautiful quality of the Georgian buildings surrounding it. The terrible thing is that this horrible building will be there for all time.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

The Deputy will appreciate that the Parliamentary Secretary and the Office over which he presides have no responsibility in this matter.

Dr. Browne

It is rather complicated. He appears to have responsibility because I frequently ask him questions about the type of building he will allow. The Department of Finance is at present seeking to determine the type of streetscape there will be in the Hume Street area.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

The Chair understands that the houses still in possession of the State are the responsibility of the Office of Public Works. The office would have no responsibility so far as private property is concerned.

Dr. Browne

What I had in mind was the statement in the Parliamentary Secretary's opening speech in which he said that this study could well be extended to other areas in relation to buildings. He was talking in the context of this whole question of conservation, national parks, status and so on. I think a case can be made for suggesting that the Department should consider adopting the same protectionist attitude to some of these buildings, not all Georgian buildings, just as in other parts of Ireland attempts are being made to preserve places like Kinsale or Galway city. I understand an attempt is being made to preserve Galway in its present very lovely format. Above all, this should be done in the case of Dublin. Most other European countries are very jealous of the heritage of beauty handed down to them by other generations where their cities are concerned. The classic example of this is the rebuilding of Warsaw and the extraordinary, painstaking and loving care with which the people of that city pieced together the devastated buildings after the war. There appears to be some resentment, not universally in the Government party, against the preservation of old buildings simply because they belong to an era which most of us tend to feel we should resent or against which we should have some antipathy.

In most European countries, and in most communist countries where they might be expected to have the same feelings for other reasons against a regime they disliked or rejected and destroyed, they have been very careful to preserve buildings, jewellery and art treasures and even things like religious ikons and crown jewels which the socialist camp could not possibly accept except for their artistic merit. We should try to look at the problems of preserving Dublin in that light. Art is timeless and has no politics and should be so considered by us. If the Parliamentary Secretary has any influence I suggest that Merrion Square and Fitzwilliam Square are Georgian gems that should be preserved if he has power to do so.

Could I ask the Parliamentary Secretary is there any possibility that the entrance to Leinster House could be restored to Merrion Square which is a much more imposing entrance and I should imagine would involve fewer traffic problems? Other Deputies have commented on the heating facilities in connection with the new extension. The heating is completely unpredictable and varies from room to room and floor to floor. The furnishings and finishes seem not to be at all comparable to the beautiful furnishings and finishes of 50 or 60 years ago when the building was first taken over.

I should like to congratulate the Parliamentary Secretary personally because I believe he had considerable responsibility for the preservation of the Asgard as a sailing ship as it now is. I know his own interest in sailing and for many reasons I am glad this ship has been saved from the absurd proposal that it should be placed in concrete which was a remarkable suggestion and could scarcely have been seriously made—one never knows. I like the idea of the Asgard as a sailing ship because here in Ireland as in Britain and other countries sailing has been essentially a class sport. It is probably one of the finest sports in that it provides the individual with an opportunity of competing against the elements using simple timber, cotton, rope and so on. It is healthy and character-forming and it is exciting. Up to now it was the exclusive sport of the wealthier classes. Now ordinary young boys and girls will have an opportunity of enjoying this sport and finding out the pleasures of it and as time goes on I hope they will have greater opportunities for extended experience of it. I hope the Asgard will be joined by further sailing ships. It is a very tiny craft compared with the beautiful ships which the Finns, the Norwegians and other Scandinavian countries use in training their personnel for the merchant navy. We now have a growing merchant navy and for this reason as well as the others I have mentioned I think a case could be made for increasing this fleet as well as our ordinary fleet.

In relation to the schools for the mentally handicapped, my recollection, from the speech of the Minister for Health, is that there is very considerable demand for this kind of school, that he has provided three and he simply goes on to say: "Other schools of this kind will be provided." Would the Parliamentary Secretary tell us what is the number he considers will have to be provided in order to solve this distressing problem? I should like to join with other Deputies in expressing my good wishes to the Parliamentary Secretary for the future and to thank him for his unfailing courtesy at all times and his obvious interest in his work.

Mr. L. Belton

The Estimate for the Office of Public Works has been, by tradition, an Estimate on which country Deputies, and particularly western Deputies, speak. We all recall an occasion a couple of years ago when the Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister for the Gaeltacht, then Deputy Kitt, complained very bitterly here that, having been down the country for a by-election and having made a very special effort to come back to speak on this Estimate, he found that night that RTE on Today in the Dáil omitted to report his contribution. However, there are a few matters which are of great concern to Dublin Deputies.

I was particularly glad to hear the Parliamentary Secretary say that playground facilities will be provided in St. Stephen's Green in a matter of weeks. He also expressed the hope that they could be provided in the Phoenix Park in the not too distant future. I wish him success in his efforts to provide a municipal golf course, if not exactly in the Phoenix Park, adjacent to it.

In a discussion recently I heard it said that roads in the Phoenix Park are not public roads. If the roads in the Phoenix Park are not public roads, what would be the position in the case of a motor accident there if the driver was not insured, which he need not be if the roads there are not public? Again in relation to the Phoenix Park, some years ago at at least one of the gate entrances a cattle grid was put down, and I see it has now been removed. I have heard it said that the reason it has been removed is that it is intended to man the gate rather than reply on this cattle grid. Perhaps, this is right, but was it necessary to go to the expense of removing the grid because the gate will be manned? Could it not equally be manned without removing the cattle grid?

May I also pay tribute to the Board of Works in regard to the maintenance of Fairview Park, which is in my own constituency? It is a very beautiful park which, as we all know, is part of the land that has been reclaimed from the sea. It is a great source of enjoyment to the people in that area, but the Tolka River, which is adjacent to Fairview Park, must be one of the most foul-smelling and dirtiest rivers in Ireland. We talk of the Shannon being drained. The Shannon is the largest river in Ireland, but I am sure there are far more people resident along the Tolka than along the Shannon. This river is nothing better than a common sewer. The local authority, by way of special grant, did some work on this river, but it was entirely inadequate. Dublin Corporation intend to make the Tolka a very fine river if they can only get the money to put their plans into operation. Apart from the foul smell, the Tolka is subject to flooding, and, indeed, it has flooded on many occasions. People living along the Tolka are in dread of being flooded out of their homes. It is only a year ago last Christmas that three families in that area had to spend Christmas Day trying to bail the water out of their homes. It is not that this situation has not been known for quite a long time. Recently I had correspondence with the Dublin city medical officer of health. In reply to a letter I sent, he told me that for years he has been aware of the state of the Tolka and that in the vicinity of the Botanic Gardens, which is another one of the places which very many Dublin people frequent, he knows the Tolka stinks to high heaven. Therefore, I would appeal to the Parliamentary Secretary to do something about the Tolka River.

As regards the renovations and improvements to Leinster House, several other Deputies have mentioned the central heating here. It is far from satisfactory and I would urge the Parliamentary Secretary to make some improvement in that direction. I would also advert to the condition of the waiting room at the gate and the one inside the main doorway. The one at the gate is completely inadequate. It is dreadful that visitors should find themselves, particularly in bad weather, having to stand at the window to ask for whichever Deputy or Senator they want to see, and sometimes having to remain in the inclement weather when the waiting room is full. If it is part of the Parliamentary Secretary's function he might provide reading material for visitors while they are waiting.

I join with Deputy Kenny in his appeal for light uniforms for ushers to wear in the fine weather. In passing, I should like to congratulate the ushers and the staff generally for the very courteous manner in which they deal with Deputies and visitors. I should also like to pay a very special tribute to the staff for the magnificent way they stood up recently to the all-night sitting and the long debates generally. The ushers at the gate were practically bombarded on the occasion and the gate had to be closed. This may not have anything to do with the Board of Works but I just want to mention it in passing.

In regard to anything the Parliamentary Secretary may have in view for Garda stations, I would ask him to consider especially Fitzgibbon Street Garda station where not so long ago there was practically a revolt and the men refused to live in the primitive conditions there. In conclusion, I should like to endorse the view expressed by other Deputies that the Office of Public Works should be a separate ministry. It is very difficult for them to carry on when they have to deal with three or four different ministries and obtain sanction from each of them. The Parliamentary Secretary's advancement has been rapid — he is only 12 months in the position and he can now be regarded as one of the veterans of the Government's front bench — and may I hope that for next year's Estimate he will be a Minister or, better still, that we may have more rapid promotion and have Deputy Kenny there when the Estimate is being introduced. The Minister for Lands, Deputy Flanagan, said that the Department of Lands may become redundant and if so, perhaps, there will be a vacancy in Castlebar for the new ministry and Deputy Kenny might find that his ministerial headquarters would be in his home town.

Mr. J. O'Leary

I should like to congratulate the Parliamentary Secretary, the commissioners and staff of the board for the manner in which this Estimate was introduced. I am glad to see that expenditure for the current financial year exceeds last year's expenditure by more than one-third of £1 million. It is gratifying to note that £3 million will again be spent this year on the provision of primary education facilities and that approximately 19,200 pupil places will be provided again this year, apart from the additional places which will be provided by way of prefabs. It is also worth noting that 50 to 60 new school buildings will again be provided this year and also that major reconstruction and improvement works will be carried out to 40 or more schools again this year.

The scheme whereby school managers can arrange for the installation of heating and sanitary facilities in any school under their management, and which is likely to continue in use for a number of years, is very satisfactory. It is a scheme which could not be operated without the co-operation of the local offices of the Board of Works. It is working very well generally and it was a scheme which was well worth introducing. More attention should be paid to the condition of Garda stations in provincial towns and particularly those in tourist areas. Stations such as that in Killarney should be renovated and modernised. A great number of visitors from all over the world call to this station every year to make inquiries, to make reports or to seek information. It is only right that in such stations there should be proper accommodation and that they should be properly decorated.

I should like to congratulate the Parliamentary Secretary and the commissioners for the manner in which they set up the National Parks and Monuments Branch of the Office of Public Works. I had advocated the setting up of this branch for a number of years. The object is to enable the commissioners and the staff to co-ordinate their work in relation to national parks, the preservation of monuments and the control of navigation on the Shannon. With co-operation from the public who use the parks, the parks' staffs and the commissioners, this branch can do most useful work for the nation in the years to come. The branch is doing tremendous work in Kerry. The improvements which are to be carried out in the Bourn Vincent Memorial Park in Killarney are very welcome. It is gratifying to note that arrangements have been made for the creation of a nature trail in the park. This will be in operation shortly. The Office of Public Works should provide living accommodation for all park workers. I would advocate that where it would be possible to do so from a planning point of view, houses should be built in the park as soon as possible. I would also advocate that the Bourn Vincent Memorial Park in Killarney be further developed as an area of recreation and that more of the scenic amenities in the park should be opened to the public.

The National Parks and Monuments Branch should purchase any land that becomes available in areas adjoining such places as the Bourn Vincent Memorial Park or the O'Connell property in Derrynane. Such land should be purchased at market value by the Office of Public Works. Money used for this purpose would be well spent and well invested in the interests of the country. The taking over of Derrynane as a national park was a great achievement on the part of the Government, the Parliamentary Secretary and the Commissioners of Public Works. No organisation other than the State could develop Derrynane as it should be developed. Neither do I think that any but a government organisation could preserve it as an area of great natural beauty. If land adjacent to places such as I have mentioned passes into other hands, it may be a long time before it comes on the market again.

More money should be devoted to archaeological surveys. If at all possible, the Government should channel more money into this type of activity even during the present financial year. I would urge that all local authorities be requested immediately to report to the Commissioners of Public Works on any property on which there are national monuments or on any places of archaeological interest which may come on the market within the near future so that the State would have the opportunity of considering the preservation of these monuments and places of interest for future generations.

I have certain reservations in regard to the expenditure on arterial drainage schemes of practically 100 per cent of the money available for drainage. We should consider the benefit which would accrue from minor drainage schemes in rural areas. It will be many years yet before arterial drainage schemes are carried out in some countries but something should be done in the interim to initiate minor drainage schemes which would enable local landowners to avail of land project grants and other incentives in order to drain their land and improve their position. In many areas at present they cannot do so. Therefore, I think that about 10 per cent of the provision for arterial drainage should be devoted to minor drainage schemes involving such streams as the Flesk near Killarney and the Gueestin which runs through the three parishes of Kilcummin, Ballyhar and Listry. These streams are but examples; there are many others throughout the country. Their drainage would not cost a great deal but it would be of tremendous and immediate value to adjoining landowners.

In conclusion, I should like to say that I am very pleased with the progress being made by the Office of Public Works.

Mr. T. O'Donnell

The most important responsibility which devolves on the Parliamentary Secretary and on the Office of Public Works is in relation to arterial drainage. I consider the subvention being made here towards arterial drainage to be totally inadequate to meet the demand from every county. Further, I am convinced that the Office of Public Works have not the manpower, the facilities or the equipment to meet the demand for arterial drainage and, as I have stated here on a number of occasions, the time is long overdue when the whole approach to drainage should be reviewed.

A most unsatisfactory situation obtains in relation to drainage in that major and minor catchment schemes are the responsibility of the Office of Public Works, land drainage comes under a rehabilitation project that is the responsibility of the Department of Agriculture while certain minor streams and other small drainage projects are the responsibility of local authorities. Drainage should occupy a much higher place in the order of national priorities in view of the benefits it provides.

I am not satisfied that the Office of Public Works are equipped to do the job. In saying that I am not in any way being critical of the Parliamentary Secretary or any of his officials whom I have found to be most courteous, obliging and helpful. The machinery, the organisation and the finance at present being devoted to drainage are totally inadequate. I was very impressed recently by a report of a study carried out by the Agricultural Institute into the benefits of arterial drainage in so far as it affects agricultural production. It is a very detailed report. I cannot recall the expert who conducted the examination. The report speaks about the improvement of the land, increased productivity of the land, the new range of crops which might be grown, the new stock-carrying capacity of the land in the catchment area and the saving of colossal losses through animal diseases and so forth. It is only when one looks at drainage in this context that one realises the total inadequacy of the present State subvention and the present State organisation to cope with the problem.

I stated before, and I want to state again, that in view of the fact that this is an agricultural country and that some of the best agricultural land is subject to severe flooding periodically during the year, in view of the potential productivity of this land, the time is overdue for the establishment of a special drainage authority which would co-ordinate the work of the Office of Public Works in regard to arterial drainage, land rehabilitation, land drainage and that of local authorities in relation to other types of drainage and maintenance. The sooner that is done the better it will be. Certainly in the light of our possible entry into the EEC it is important that the maximum productivity would be obtained from every acre of land in the country.

It is tragic that so many thousands of acres of land should go to waste or not produce its maximum potential because of flooding. One has in mind huge catchment areas in the midlands and other catchment areas contiguous to the River Shannon. Arterial drainage is a very topical subject in my constituency and in West Limerick. A problem has arisen within the past six months in regard to the arterial drainage scheme for the River Maigue. The river was surveyed some years ago and a scheme was prepared. All was ready to start; the machinery, the men and the finance were available. Unfortunately at the last moment one large landowner lodged an objection. He was perfectly within his rights, as any landowner has the right to object if there is an infringement of his rights and can claim compensation. In this case the objection was so great and the problem so complicated that despite protracted discussions and negotiations between the Office of Public Works and the people concerned no solution could be found.

Subsequently the people concerned in this sought a High Court injunction against the Office of Public Works. The landowner succeeded. The result is that the drainage of the Maigue River has been held up for about a year and will be held up indefinitely. The Parliamentary Secretary does not suggest any solution to this problem.

I want to state my views in relation to this matter. I have examined this situation fairly thoroughly. I have attended protest meetings in Limerick country and particularly protest meetings of farmers whose lands would be affected by the scheme. I regret the landowner in question has proved to be unreasonable. I want to be honest about this. It would be very easy for me to stand up here and attack the Board of Works for not proceeding with the scheme. I am satisfied from my investigation that the Board of Works have made every effort to find a reasonable solution to the problem. It is right that I should acknowledge this fact. The Parliamentary Secretary has devoted considerable time and attention to the matter. He has had discussions with the people concerned. Be that as it may, the present situation is that the drainage of this huge catchment area of the River Maigue, affecting thousands of acres of land in County Limerick, some of it in the centre of the Golden Vale and some of it the richest agricultural land in Western Europe, has been held up by reason of a decision of the High Court.

I attended a protest meeting in Kilmallock some months ago which was also attended by a great number of farmers and a number of my colleagues in the constituency. At that meeting I proposed that the best approach would be that the farmers affected should seek a meeting with the representatives of the Dunraven estate, the objectors. I am glad to say that meetings have been held and I am hopeful that reason will prevail and a suitable formula will be found to enable work to proceed on this most important project.

In addition to the fact that farmers who have been waiting for so many years to have this job done and who were making plans and had drawn up farm management plans in anticipation of the scheme, were disappointed, we are also concerned and very worried by the fact that 200 to 300 men who were available to work on the scheme and who would be assured of suitable employment for a number of years are now out of employment.

We are also concerned about the fact that the machinery and equipment for the scheme is lying idle in Limerick. Some time ago, on a Supplementary Estimate for the Office of Public Works, I appealed to the Parliamentary Secretary to refrain from moving the machinery from County Limerick. I appreciate the difficulty the Parliamentary Secretary finds himself in and I appreciate the difficulty of the office in this respect. However, I would again appeal to the Parliamentary Secretary to leave the machinery in County Limerick until a solution to this problem is found. I am quite confident a solution will be found. At the time of the High Court injunction I suggested in this House that perhaps as a solution the Office of Public Works would remove the machinery from the Maigue to the adjoining catchment area of the Mulcair and while a solution was being found for the Maigue problem, the machinery could be working in the Mulcair area. This would ensure that the employment of many men in Limerick would be protected. Subsequently a deputation from the Mulcair area came to Leinster House and were courteously received by the Parliamentary Secretary. We learned that this solution would not be satisfactory. It was not a question of shifting machinery and men from one area to another. We learned that the scheme for the River Mulcair had not been completed and that the work could not commence. That is the position at the moment. I hope that when the Parliamentary Secretary is replying to this debate he will be able to throw some light on this problem.

I should like to know what decision the Office of Public Works have come to following their study of the evidence in the High Court and their study of the judgement. I should like to know from the Parliamentary Secretary whether in the light of what has happened in the case of the Maigue any amendments to the Arterial Drainage Act, 1945, are contemplated in order to prevent a recurrence of what has happened there. I do not want to add anything which might make a bad situation worse or might prevent a mutually satisfactory solution being worked out, but I want to deplore the fact that this has happened. If the Parliamentary Secretary considers that special amending legislation is necessary to enable the Maigue scheme to be proceeded with I want to assure him that he will get full agreement on this side of the House. We will ensure that such legislation will be proceeded with without any delay.

The plans for the River Maigue were outlined by the predecessor to the Parliamentary Secretary, my late constituency colleague, Deputy Donogh O'Malley. He envisaged a clockwise scheme starting with the River Deale on the Kerry border, then the River Maigue and then the River Mulcair on the Limerick-Tipperary border. The scheme on the Deale was completed. The Maigue scheme was due to start and is now held up. The scheme on the River Mulcair catchment area was discussed when a deputation came recently to see the Parliamentary Secretary. The Maigue and Mulcair schemes cover a catchment area which comprises for the most part very good agricultural land. I have no doubt that the increase in production and the improvement in farm methods which would result from the completion of these two schemes would offset the cost of carrying them out. I would ask the Parliamentary Secretary to have the work on the River Maigue started as soon as possible.

I want also to express the hope that the assurance which the Parliamentary Secretary gave us on the occasion of the recent meeting with the Mulcair deputation will be fulfilled and his projection regarding the possibility of starting the Mulcair drainage scheme will prove to be a reality.

The Parliamentary Secretary referred in his opening remarks to the River Maigue and indicated that provision is also included for it. I quote from volume 247, column 952 of the Official Report:

Provision is also included for the Maigue but, because of the recent High Court decision, this scheme will be delayed. The matters arising from that decision are being considered.

The Parliamentary Secretary also said:

The preparation of major schemes for the Erne, Corrib-Mask-Robe, Boyle, Mulkear, Suir, Nore and the Owenmore, Sligo ... is proceeding.

He also mentioned minor schemes. This mention of minor schemes brings to mind a minor scheme in East Limerick which is adjacent to Limerick city and which has been the cause of considerable agitation over a long period of time. A couple of deputations have come here about it since 1961. I do not think any deputation has come to the present Parliamentary Secretary. I am referring to the River Groody. This river stretches along the Dublin Road outside Limerick city. Anybody travelling to Limerick on the Dublin Road in winter after a heavy rainfall will see this eyesore which is, in places, a lake. This River Groody covers a relatively small area of countryside. It is a vitally important scheme and has been mentioned on a number of occasions as receiving priority. I understand that the preparatory work for the scheme was completed and placed on exhibition. The observations made by various parties during the period of the exhibition were being studied by the Office of Public Works. I was led to believe and I understood, as everybody in that area did, that work would commence on the Groody scheme in June. I appreciate that delays can occur. I would like the Parliamentary Secretary, when replying, to let us know what the present position about the River Groody really is and whether work will commence this year. I impress on the Parliamentary Secretary the importance of getting this scheme started without further delay.

The Parliamentary Secretary referred to the work which has been done on the Shannon embankments. It is only fair that I should pay tribute to the Office of Public Works for the wonderful work that has been done on this scheme. I am referring particularly to the work done adjacent to Limerick city. I recall that in 1960 or 1961 a small community in a place called Coonagh on the outskirts of Limerick were cut off by floods and completely isolated for several days. The men had to go to work by boat and the women had to travel to the main road by boat to do their shopping in Limerick city. The improvement as a result of the repair work that has been done on the Shannon embankments can be seen by anybody who examines the situation. This work is nearing completion and I should like to ask the Parliamentary Secretary what are his intentions regarding the men who are employed on the scheme and the machinery in use there. Is there other work to be done on the Shannon in that area? I should be grateful for any information he can give on this matter.

Having dealt with what I consider to be the most important aspect of the responsibility of the Office of Public Works, I should like to refer briefly to a few other aspects of this Estimate. The Parliamentary Secretary mentioned the work that has been done on national monuments. This work is very important. The preservation of those monuments serves to remind a younger generation of the great heritage of the past. They also, from a more materialistic point of view, are vitally important tourist attractions. One need only refer to the manner in which some of the castles have been renovated and reconstructed and the fact that they are proving to be such tremendous tourist attractions. I refer to Bunratty, Dún Guaire and the other castles which form part of the Shannon castles tours and which have been responsible for attracting thousands of visitors every year. I saw that about 44,000 people attended the medieval banquet at Bunratty Castle last season. Dún Guaire in Kinvara is also a tremendous attraction. I am in favour of every effort being made to preserve our ancient monuments, parks and great houses. I am glad the Office of Public Works are making progress in this field.

It is only right that public tribute should be paid to the work of An Taisce, the voluntary organisation interested in preservation. I have praised their work before but I feel it is right that I should mention again the tremendous job in focusing public sense of dedication which characterises the people associated with An Taisce. We have a very active group in Limerick city and they have done a tremendous job in focussing public attention on and reminding our young people of the landmarks of the chequered history of this nation. Members of An Taisce in Limerick have done very valuable work in trying to trace the remains of the famous Walls of Limerick. This is the type of work which should be encouraged. I have read the Parliamentary Secretary's speech but I cannot remember reading that he is providing a subvention to An Taisce.

Mr. Lemass

The Minister for Finance himself provides a subvention.

Mr. T. O'Donnell

I note that the Office of Public Works has responsibility for Shannon navigation. I am sure Deputy Cooney, who is sitting behind me, will be more familiar with this work than I am, but I want to say, as one interested in the tourist industry, that I believe the Shannon has a tremendous potential. This becomes obvious every time one travels in the Athlone area and sees the increasing number of boats and cruisers on the Shannon. One of my colleagues recommended that the Office of Public Works should concentrate on the drainage of the Shannon and should not be so concerned about the question of navigation but I feel that the two are important. The Shannon as a tourist attraction has a tremendous potential which is gradually being realised. I believe that if development work is done and the amenities are improved it can generate a considerable increase in tourist traffic to this country.

The Parliamentary Secretary mentioned that archaeological surveys are being carried out and that assistance is being given by the Office of Public Works. Human nature being what it is, when this Estimate is being debated one tends to be parochial. I want to draw the Parliamentary Secretary's attention to one very important archaeological site, one which has been studied and where excavations have been carried out over the last 40 or 50 years. I refer to Lough Gur in County Limerick. The late lamented Professor Ó Riordáin, who was Professor of Archaeology in UCD and one of the leading authorities in Western Europe on archaeology, did a good deal of work in Lough Gur. I would ask the Parliamentary Secretary to bear this place in mind in determining future archaeological investigations and surveys.

The final point I want to make relates to school buildings. I know one is limited in one's references to this subject because the Department of Education have the primary function but the Office of Public Works is the building agency. In recent times, particularly due to what has been called the explosion in education which has taken place in recent years, it was necessary to provide additional school buildings at very short notice. This has led to the provision of various types of prefabricated buildings. Some of them have been referred to previously in this House as "hen houses". I was astonished recently when I was informed on fairly reliable authority, that a new school which was erected in County Limerick five or six years ago—a completely new school, not an extension to an existing building—by some type of system building will have to be replaced in another 12 months because of constructional defects. I am seeking further information on the matter which I shall pass to the Parliamentary Secretary.

I do not know if the Office of Public Works have a method whereby they thoroughly investigate the various types of system building or whether it is merely a question of a school needing an extension, someone is able to supply the additional classrooms and the inspection by the Office of Public Works is cursory, or, perhaps, does not take place at all. I understand that this case in County Limerick, to which I have just referred, is not an isolated example. I should be glad if the Parliamentary Secretary would express his views on this question of prefabricated or various other types of building used in the extension or building of schools.

Mr. Lemass

I should like to clarify one point. A survey is being carried out by An Taisce, on the direction of the Minister for Finance, in connection with great gardens, historic houses and provincial museums. This is a specific job but there is no subvention as such from the State. I mention this in case I misled the Deputy.

Mr. T. O'Donnell

The reason I mentioned it was that in a recent Supplementary Estimate debate we voted special money.

Mr. Lemass

That is correct. An Taisce will report to the Minister.

Mr. O.J. Flanagan

I should like to join with other Deputies in congratulating the Parliamentary Secretary on his appointment. The Parliamentary Secretary is a most courteous man and that in itself is worthy of a special word of recognition. I should also like to pay a tribute to the chairman and the secretary of the Office of Public Works and to all those courteous public servants who have been associated with this Department.

It is nearly 30 years since I first had dealings with the Office of Public Works and matters have changed considerably in that period. Many years ago we were dealing with bog development schemes, minor employment and relief schemes. We had the tedious process of the Drainage Commission of which Mr. Cullinane was secretary and it is fair to say that the Office of Public Works have a reasonably good record of service which has undoubtedly contributed to the standards which now prevail throughout the country. Although we may have grounds for complaint in many matters, I do not think we can fault the people in our public service and, while we are a young country, we can be very proud of our civil servants.

I should like to direct the Parliamentary Secretary's attention to the serious problem of drainage. A substantial investment in drainage is urgently required. The Office of Public Works moves very slowly but anyone listening to Deputy O'Donnell will have appreciated the many legal and other problems with which that Office has to cope in getting approval and consent for carrying out various schemes. In many parts of rural Ireland there are thousands of acres of land that could be made arable and could yield a fruitful return to the economy of the country generally as well as giving an improved financial return to the owners if comprehensive drainage schemes were carried out. One of the best such schemes was the drainage work on the River Brosna in Counties Offaly, Westmeath and Meath. However, unless there is sufficient staff available to carry out the maintenance work the conditions of the tributaries to the rivers will deteriorate.

The time has come for the adoption of a completely new approach to drainage. The vast amount of valuable work that was undertaken many years ago under the Local Authorities (Works) Act cannot and is not being carried out at the present time. Many landowners have a genuine grievance; in many instances they can graze their land for only a limited period each year. Those Deputies who represent midland constituencies know that lands are waterlogged for a considerable time after the flooding has subsided and they know that it is most undesirable to graze waterlogged lands. By doing this the landowners run the risk of sheep contracting fluke or other diseases.

The Office of Public Works should endeavour to institute a scheme of minor drainage in addition to schemes of arterial drainage. The minor drainage I have in mind is in respect of streams and drains for which the county councils have no responsibility and for which everybody seems to disclaim all responsibility. It is a difficult situation for landowners when they are told the county councils, the various drainage boards and the Office of Public Works all disclaim responsibility for this work. They find it very difficult to swallow that. The time has come when the Office of Public Works should endeavour to meet the wishes, where a genuine case is put forward, of the county engineer in the particular area.

It is in both the local and national interest that certain drainage schemes should be carried out. I have in mind a number of schemes. I shall not detain the House with a recital of them. There are files on all of these in the Office of Public Works. I will remind the Parliamentary Secretary of just one of them. I refer to the Ballyfin river in North Tipperary and in part of Offaly. Agitation to have some drainage done on this has been going on for close on 40 years. It does not come under arterial drainage. It has not been seriously considered for any type of financial assistance. Numerous deputations have waited on various Parliamentary Secretaries, all of whom were most sympathetic and most understanding But nothing has ever been done. A drainage scheme which embraces such a wide area as Borrisokane to Clough-jordan in North Tipperary and Moneygall and Shinrone in Offaly is worthy of attention and warrants serious action on the part of the Office of Public Works.

I am glad that some preliminary steps have been taken about the drainage of the River Shannon. This is not a small job by any means. It is no harm to remind the Parliamentary Secretary, as we do on every occasion on which this Estimate comes before the House, that the plight of the people living in the Shannon valley cannot and should not be underestimated. Those living between Lusmagh and right up to Athlone experience very serious handicaps. They live in dread of heavy flooding. Pleas have been made to the Office of Public Works and the ESB for the lowering of the level of the Shannon at certain times of the year. We have been told that this is undesirable because only a certain amount of water can be allowed down to Ardnacrusha. A great deal of water is held back which could be allowed to flow more freely and, if it were, it would result in a lowering of the level of the Shannon. More sympathetic consideration should be given to the plight of these people whose lands are flooded.

I remember a very old friend of mine telling me that the Shannon flooding goes back a great many years. On one occasion a very respected MP, a Mr. Reddy, was approached by his constituents in the Shannonbridge area and, as a result of the representations he made at Westminister, the level of the Shannon was lowered considerably because steps were taken to remove certain obstructions. Some of these obstructions reappeared when the ESB was being set up. If it was possible to lower the level of the Shannon, almost overnight, as a result of representations, then I fail to understand why something cannot be done to lower the level of the Shannon now, thereby preventing very serious flooding.

I was not very long a Member of this House when a number of barrels of beer fell off a barge into the Shannon. This was reported and, in order to locate the barrels, overnight the level of the Shannon was lowered. The late Deputy Davern referred to this in the House and I am sure the Parliamentary Secretary will find the reference. I think there is a letter of appreciation from the brewing concern for the services rendered; the concern expressed its thanks for the lowering of the level of the Shannon so that the barrels of stout could be located. I have often wondered if it is of greater importance to lower the level of the Shannon to locate a few barrels of stout than it is to lower the level to save livestock from drowning and homes from being flooded. Most of the families in the Shannon valley live in single storey residences. There is no first floor on which they can take refuge during flooding.

The draining of the Shannon is a matter of the utmost importance. It should be undertaken without delay. The most modern machinery available should be utilised and steps should be taken at the same time to ensure the highest possible employment. The amount of money provided in this Estimate for both arterial and other drainage is quite insufficient. More money should be spent on drainage because any money so spent is a sound national investment.

I am critical of the provision in regard to Garda stations. Garda stations have been closed in many parts of the country. Those still in existence should provide the maximum comfort for those who have to work in them. The furniture in most is not of the best quality. Suitable cabinets for filing should be provided. Proper shelving should be put in. In many instances the gardaí have to carry out their work under most uncomfortable conditions.

I have seen quite a number of the new Garda stations. I wish to compliment very sincerely the architects and designers of the Office of Public Works who were responsible for these stations. This good work should be continued. Every effort should be made to have a five year programme in which we would provide all the necessary Garda stations. A survey should be made of every Garda station with a view to providing all necessary shelving and filing cabinets and the maximum possible comfort for the members of the force.

The school building programme seems to involve duplication. Consider the amount of work to be undertaken by the Department of Education, by various school managers and by the Office of Public Works who are the agents for the Department of Education in school building. Could the Department of Education not deal entirely with the matter or, alternatively, could the Office of Public Works not deal entirely with the matter? A considerable amount of valuable time and a vast amount of public expenditure are involved in duplication in this respect: the exchange of plans between Departments, consultations with inspectors, conferences with school managers, and so on. The same remarks apply to the Department of Justice, where the building of Garda stations is concerned.

Schools for retarded or mentally handicapped children are most desirable and meet, I would say, with the approval of every adult in this country. This is, indeed, a practical step. Naturally, representations are made for the establishment of similar schools in different parts of the country. I understand that a programme in this respect has been outlined by the Office of Public Works. We should be glad to hear particulars of this programme— the target, the extent of the schools and their location. Has a survey been made in conjunction with local authorities and the county medical officers of health and the Department of Health to ascertain where exactly the need is greatest for these schools? If so, we should be glad to hear the particulars plus an estimate of the number of such schools that could be provided under this heading within the next five to seven years. Is the Parliamentary Secretary satisfied that within a few years this problem can be coped with satisfactorily? In addition to buildings, the question of staff for these schools arises but this point is outside the scope of the present Estimate. I appeal to the Parliamentary Secretary to cut as much red tape as possible to enable him to provide these schools with the least possible delay.

A municipal golf course is contemplated in the vicinity of the Phoenix Park. The Parliamentary Secretary has received hundreds of letters appealing for it. Golf is a most desirable and healthy exercise and pastime. Is State money to be provided for this project — not that I condemn it by any means? Is this the first time that the Office of Public Works have been involved in the provision of a golf course? What is the estimated expenditure for this project? No matter how desirable this or any similar project may be—and I do not say it is not desirable — would the Parliamentary Secretary consider favourably, if suitable land is available, the expenditure of public money on GAA grounds for hurling and football? There is no reason why public money should not be made available in my constituency, if suitable grounds are made available, for the construction of an athletic track and a cycling track and the provision of whatever facilities are required for our young athletes. There are GAA clubs who require public money to assist them in the preparation of their fields or parks for conversion into grounds with goal posts and suitably laid out for hurling and football. I should be inclined to give a preference to hurling and football over golf.

Dr. O'Donovan

The State might get some of its money back on the 19th hole of the golf club.

Mr. O.J. Flanagan

I can see that. If public money is to be spent on the provision of a public golf club in Dublin I want to know will public money be spent in rural Ireland where there appears to be more emphasis on Gaelic football and hurling than on golf, and those who are fond of hurling and football are more entitled to a share of the money that is going than golfers? I will come down on the side of the hurlers and the footballers in competition with the golfers on any occasion. That is why I say that if any funds are being provided for the laying out of a public golf course in the city of Dublin I want to make a plea for public money to be spent on the renovation of parks in which football and hurling are played and in which there are athletic events in my own constituency.

I have as good a right to advocate that as Dublin Deputies have to advocate that public money should be spent on the provision of a golf course in Dublin. I want to hear more about the estimated cost of this public golf course. If public money is to be spent in this way, the Office of Public Works and the Parliamentary Secretary cannot choose to expend public money on golf as against hurling, football or athletics. The Parliamentary Secretary has said that quite a number of people have written to him saying they are in favour of this project. I am not against it and I want to go on record as not being against it provided that hurling, football and athletics get their share if the Government have sufficient funds on hands to provide a national golf course in the Phoenix Park.

Dr. O'Donovan

They are already provided in the park complete with pavilions. They were provided by the second inter-Party Government.

Mr. O.J. Flanagan

For hurling and football?

Dr. O'Donovan

Yes, complete with pavilions and provided by the second inter-Party Government. That was one of my successful efforts in the second inter-Party Government.

Mr. O.J. Flanagan

Congratulations. If I had known there were developments of that nature in the 1954-57 period, I would certainly have endeavoured to have a share of that sporting prosperity brought to my constituency. If there is a demand in rural Ireland for parks or pitches for hurling, football and athletics no doubt the Parliamentary Secretary will consider it on its merits as he is now considering the question of this national golf course.

Dr. O'Donovan

The Office of Public Works insisted on putting up magnificent pavilions.

Mr. O.J. Flanagan

I want to compliment the Office of Public Works on co-operating with the authorities in the Six Counties in relation to drainage. The Parliamentary Secretary said that the possibility of schemes in the catchment areas of the Erne in Counties Cavan, Monaghan and Fermanagh and the Bradoge in Counties Donegal, Leitrim and Fermanagh is being examined in co-operation with the northern authorities. That is the kind of co-operation that should be encouraged between the Government of the Six Counties and the Government of the Republic. This is solid work that can be done for the benefit of the people. Where there is co-operation of that kind the people benefit on both sides of this imaginary border. The sooner our people realise that we can make headway by working hard together the better.

With schemes like the Foyle fisheries scheme, the Erne scheme and the drainage schemes proposed by the Parliamentary Secretary we can benefit the people north and south of this imaginary border. I hope there will be the greatest possible degree of co-operation between the Office of Public Works and the various county councils in the Six Counties or the relevant Government Department. I doubt if this is the appropriate time to say it but I would hope that we would have some section of a Government Department making every effort at co-operation and that permanent machinery would be set up to deal with projects affecting people of the Six Counties as well as people in the Republic. The more co-operation we have, the closer the links we have and the more generous we are the better it will be for all parties concerned.

I hope the Parliamentary Secretary's proposals will be sympathetically examined and that, so far as possible, every co-operation will be forthcoming from the Government of the Republic. It should be one of our proudest boasts that our engineers, consultants and architects are prepared to meet the engineers, consultants and architects of the Six Counties and sit down together to design and draft schemes for different proposals which will be for the benefit of the people on both sides of the border. I hope that co-operation will continue for many a long day until this imaginary border disappears.

I want to make a very brief reference to the various public offices for which the Office of Public Works is responsible. There is a duplication of public offices all over the country. There are pension offices, Department of Social Welfare offices, labour exchanges, land project offices and bovine TB offices. The Office of Public Works has to maintain all these offices and provide them with heating, lighting and furniture. A vast amount of money is paid out each year on rent for these offices. The Office of Public Works should design a modern office block for each rural area where all these various Government offices could be housed. This would not only lead to cheaper running costs but would prove far more efficient. In Tullamore there is a social welfare office, a Land Commission office, a labour exchange, a pensions office and a customs and excise office. The same situation obtains in every rural town.

Those of us who visit Government Departments from time to time cannot help noticing the out-of-date furniture which is still in use. I have seen tables which could be described as valueless antiques and chairs with only three legs. I cannot understand why they are still in use except perhaps that the officer in charge is afraid of a rebuff from his superior officer if he asks for modern furniture. In Navan and Ardee there are fine furniture manufacturers well able to make office furniture for Government Departments. I suggest a circular be issued by the Office of Public Works to the various Government Departments inquiring as to what new furniture is required.

I have been in offices where the shelves are weighed down with files. I have seen out-of-date filing cabinets being used and tables stacked with files. There may not be anything wrong in that because I must admit I have never gone into a busy solicitor's office and not seen files all over the floor. It may be a sign that business is being transacted in that office but it looks bad because it does not show efficiency and tidiness. Every Garda station should have adequate filing facilities.

The Office of Public Works should see to it that Government offices are decently furnished for the convenience and comfort of those who work in them and also to create a good impression. The furniture in most Government offices should be destroyed and replaced by up-to-date equipment. Not long after I had been critical about the furniture in the Valuation Office I went in and found that new tables and chairs had been provided. I do not want to throw all the blame on the Office of Public Works. I blame the civil servants for putting up with these conditions.

At every national monument there is a plaque on display which says: "This is a national monument. The Office of Public Works are responsible. He who damages or defaces in any way this memorial is guilty of an offence and liable to prosecution." People who go to visit a national monument want to learn its history. They do not want to learn that legal proceedings will be instituted against them if they deface the monument. They do not want to know that the Office of Public Works is responsible for it. Before going to visit it they know that it is a national monument. I realise it is impossible to put the complete history of a national monument on a plaque but the warning notice now on display is not read by anyone. Vandals who want to damage a memorial will not bother reading the notice proclaiming it is an offence to interfere with it. Something more attractive should appear on the plaques near these national monuments. We know that anybody interfering with them is liable to prosecution and should be dealt with severely. A ten-line history of the memorial, what it stands for and its age should go on these plaques instead of a warning against vandalism.

Bord Fáilte seem to have very limited information about our national monuments. The Office of Public Works should publish a booklet indicating county by county where national monuments exist and give some brief history of them for those who are interested. I do not think this has been done.

I am often disappointed and depressed at the lack of interest in our greatest national monument at Clonmacnoise. Clonmacnoise was responsible for sending the early missionaries to the four corners of the world and some of the greatest educationists, bishops, priests and monks in Europe, received their early education in Clonmacnoise. It is the burial place of saints, kings, princes and chieftains. It is a wonderful building on the banks of the Shannon convenient to Shannonbridge. I have often wondered why so little emphasis is laid on Clonmacnoise as Ireland's most important national monument. It has more historical associations than all the rest of the country. If the Parliamentary Secretary has not been there I respectfully suggest that he should go there on his first free evening.

I remember when efforts were being made to get the Office of Public Works to take over Clonmacnoise as a national monument. I regarded it as the proudest moment of my life when they did so because to me it stands for everything that is Christian, national and right. No place in the world has greater historical associations, has produced more holiness, more education and more good generally than Clonmacnoise on the banks of the Shannon. Yet, we seldom see a road sign indicating Clonmacnoise. How little we read about this great national monument. Tourists are taken to the Lakes of Killarney and elsewhere but seldom to Clonmacnoise.

That is why I say the Office of Public Works should see that such national monuments are appreciated and that qualified people are made available to give tourists and others information concerning them. I dare say there are thousands of people in this country who have never seen Clonmacnoise and there may even be thousands who have never heard of St. Ciaran. But it is our duty to enlighten them and give them the history.

I had expected that the Office of Public Works would have issued a special booklet when Bord Fáilte did not do so or that they would jointly issue such a booklet. Little is known in our schools about national monuments and the Office of Public Works have a duty to get the Department of Education to attach greater importance to national monuments and ensure that in the vocational, secondary and national schools in the vicinity of such monuments the history and background of the local monuments are taught and explained to the students. We are proud of our national monuments.

Ireland probably has greater national traditions and heritage than any other European country but we seem to allow them to slumber. I hope the Parliamentary Secretary will take a special interest in making known to the public the history of our national monuments with special reference to the importance to us and to all our visitors of Clonmacnoise. The Office of Public Works should ensure that some recognition is given to what I think is the most outstanding Church of Ireland building in the country, the ancient Church of Ireland at Coolbanagher, near Emo, in County Laois. Many people probably never heard of the great historic Church of Ireland there but it is one of the finest and most outstanding ancient buildings in the country. It was recently renovated and is well worth a visit. It is within a stone's throw of the main Dublin-Cork road at New Inn Cross. It deserves national recognition. It is one of the finest old churches I have ever seen. It has been visited by people of all classes and creeds from all over Europe. Perhaps if the Parliamentary Secretary is in the area some time the rector, who lives in Mountmellick, which includes the Church of Ireland parish of Coolbanagher, would be very pleased to welcome him and show him this outstanding ancient building. Coolbanagher church is one of the finest ancient buildings in this country.

Deputies have made reference to the accommodation at Leinster House. Let me join with other Deputies in complimenting the staff here at Leinster House who excel themselves in courtesy and efficiency in carrying out their duties. As probably one of the longest serving Members of this House I can say that every member of the staff deserves that tribute. I hope the time will come when Deputies will be provided with some degree of privacy in the House. Leinster House facilities cannot be compared with those in the Canadian House of Parliament in Ottawa nor with the facilities available for Congressmen in Washington. In the Canadian House of Parliament each member has his own small room. Even since the extension of Leinster House a Deputy finds it difficult, despite the best efforts of the Captain of the Guard and the Superintendent, to get a room in which to meet his constituents. One wonders how business was carried on before the new building was provided. The new building does not provide Deputies with any more privacy than they had previously. The only difference is that a Deputy's locker was transferred from the Library, which was convenient, right up to the wing of the new building.

I feel sure the taxpayers of this country would not begrudge Deputies a small room each in which they could conduct their business. It might be said that the cost would be prohibitive, but I maintain that a Deputy who works conscientiously is as much entitled to the privacy of a room as either a Minister or a Parliamentary Secretary. I would be glad to see such a facility afforded so that Deputies would not have to transact their business in an open party room or in the Library. It is not that a Deputy is ashamed of his work, but there are certain delicate subjects which constituents come into this House to discuss with him. In many instances Deputies have to take their constituents out to a hotel to discuss constituency matters with them which they do not want to discuss in the presence of other Deputies. There may be rivalry in a constituency among Deputies and one Deputy may not want another Deputy to know what he is discussing with his constituents. If a demand comes from the Committee on Procedure and Privileges for a degree of privacy, to which Deputies are entitled, I hope the Parliamentary Secretary will consider it sympathetically.

I am glad to know from the Parliamentary Secretary's statement that preliminary work on the drainage of the River Nore has commenced. The most appalling conditions have prevailed in my own constituency, in South Laois, from Kilreany to Durrow, into the north of Kilkenny, part of Ballyraggett, right into Kilkenny city, where the river has caused havoc and distress. I would ask that every effort be made to expedite the drainage of this river.

I wonder has any Deputy expressed a word of thanks to Messrs. Arthur Guinness Son and Company for the floodlighting of the Rock of Cashel.

Mrs. Hogan O'Higgins

Yes.

Mr. O.J. Flanagan

I am glad some Deputies have done so. The floodlighting of the Rock of Cashel was an excellent job which brought forth favourable comment from everyone who saw it. We are deeply grateful for the display of citizenship by this company through the expenditure which was incurred on this project.

Perhaps the Parliamentary Secretary would take note of some property the Office of Public Works own in my constituency. The old Military Barracks at Crinkle near Birr, which has been on this site for many years, is probably one of the finest buildings of its type in the country. One of the memories of the Civil War is the burning of this fine barracks. I have often said that if that barracks had never been burned Birr would probably be one of the most prosperous towns in Ireland today. That barracks was a great source of income for the people in the locality. It meant that a considerable amount of money was spent in Birr. The ruins of that barracks are still there as a relic of the Civil War, as a memorial to those who were so fond of destruction and fire. I should like to know what it is intended to do with it. Will it always be left there? Would the Parliamentary Secretary consider giving it to the Birr Industrial Development Company so that it could be used as an industrial site? If the Government intend to proceed with the decentralisation of Government Departments, could the headquarters of the Office of Public Works be set up on this site which is so convenient to the town of Birr? They would be practically in the centre of Ireland, which would be convenient in dealing with all drainage proposals. They would be in a very central position for all their school works and indeed for most of their activities.

If the Departments of Lands and Education are to be set up outside Dublin I can do no better than recommend that the Parliamentary Secretary set up his headquarters on the land which he owns, where there is ample space convenient to a very good town. If he does not decide to set up his headquarters there perhaps some arrangement would be made within the next 12 months to do something with this site. It is one of the finest old sites in the country. The ruins of the old military barracks are still there and the site cannot be left that way indefinitely. It has been that way since the Civil War and no steps have been taken to use this Government property. The time has come when something should be done about it.

In conclusion, I should just like to compliment the Office of Public Works on their high standard of courtesy—I will not say their high standard of speed because they cannot be described as the quickest Department of State. However, I should like to express my appreciation to the Parliamentary Secretary of that courtesy and wish him and the Board good luck in the implementation of the projects in this Estimate, which is the Parliamentary Secretary's first Estimate here.

Mrs. Hogan O'Higgins

I often sympathisc with the Parliamentary Secretary who has to deal with the Office of Public Works because it seems to me to be just a little bit of everything —all kinds of everything, as the song goes. To some of us, particularly those of us living west of the Shannon, it seems that because this office is so diversified and so much time has to be spent on school buildings, which one would obviously think would belong to the Department of Education, and on Garda barracks, which one would imagine would belong to the Department of Justice, what we consider the main things in the Board of Works are often far down the list. My main concern, as a western Deputy, is with drainage. Here again I sympathise with the Parliamentary Secretary because the amount of money he gets from his colleague, the Minister for Finance, for drainage remains static while costs go up and up. Indeed, the first meeting I attended after being first elected to this House was a protest meeting about a drainage problem now well known to the Office of Public Works, the Dunkellin drainage scheme. That is 13 years ago and even then this problem had been before the board for quite some time. I appreciate the Parliamentary Secretary's difficulty and I know that he is faced with many major schemes. A minor scheme like the Dunkellin scheme may seem somewhat unimportant but in my constituency it is perhaps the most vexed question at the moment.

The Parliamentary Secretary is fairly new to his job and certainly not au fait with the type of farming which we do, particularly in south County Galway. In the main the farmers affected by this river are small farmers and to them the loss of two or three acres through flooding, even for a few months, is a major disaster. For some of them this has gone on for a lifetime; the problem is getting worse and nothing seems to be done about it. I was glad to note that the Parliamentary Secretary referred to the scheme when introducing the Estimate but I would like if he could say that work on the Dunkellin would begin in such-and-such a year. If he could pinpoint the year and tell us when it will start people's fears would be allayed. My constituents feel that the Dunkellin will never be done. Another problem is that this river flows through an area called Rashane which is a natural wild bird sanctuary and I can well understand the anxiety of the board to preserve the wild life there. Indeed, it is our anxiety too and I know that Bord Fáilte are uneasy about the matter also, but I am sure some way could be devised so that the drainage scheme would not endanger the bird life there. Something should be done as soon as possible.

In my constituency we have been fairly lucky in regard to drainage in that we have two major drainage schemes, the Corrib and the Killimor. The Killimor scheme has been completed and the Corrib is more or less completed. Through no fault of my own, but through the fault of a previous Minister, I now represent part of Clare. They have a drainage problem also. In fact, they feel they have been very badly treated in regard to drainage. Recently I accompanied a deputation of my constituents to the Parliamentary Secretary in regard to the problem of the Scariff river. I understand that drainage work on this river was started before I was born, and before the Parliamentary Secretary was born, in the Cumann na nGaedheal days, and was stopped in 1931 and nothing was done about it since. The Parliamentary Secretary explained all his difficulties to the deputation but I would ask him to keep it in mind and to do as much as possible as soon as possible for these people. This is an area which I know fairly well and the problem is not just a simple natural one of flooding; it is a problem that is increasing yearly because of the afforestation work in the area. The area on the Galway side, which is suitable for forestry, has been extensively planted over the last three years and all the drainage comes back on the Clare side and is aggravating the problem for the small farmers involved. Life west of the Shannon is difficult compared with Meath and for that reason west of the Shannon we should get more facilities in regard to drainage than anywhere else.

Another river which causes tremendous flooding in my constituency is the River Suck. I appreciate that the Suck is a tributary of the Shannon and that the Shannon will have to be taken into account when drainage schemes come up, but I am sure some sort of minor scheme could be undertaken on the Suck to relieve the considerable amount of flooding in the Roscommon-Galway end of this river.

An excellent job was done in the Killimor scheme. There were many snags and, as a Deputy representing a big constituency like mine knows, you get lots of complaints, but in the main the people were well treated. The only real complaint I have is that the landowners were not paid enough for spoil. They considered elongated banks of rubble to be unsightly and damaging as well as representing a loss of land. The negotiations between the owners and the Office of Public Works were lengthy and the farmers were not satisfied with the amount paid for the land affected by spoil. I paid many visits to the office in Portumna as well as to the office here and I should like the Parliamentary Secretary to convey to his staff in both places my thanks for the kindness shown to me by them. As one official put it, I was public nuisance No. 1 and I must have been such a nuisance for a long time because the negotiations were protracted. The officials of the Office of Public Works are the most courteous I have ever met in any Department, and that is saying something.

As I have said, many matters come within the ambit of the office. Many rural schools are now being closed and the position in regard to many others is undecided. They may be closed in four years time or they may not but in the meantime necessary repairs are not being carried out. Some of the buildings are in very bad condition. I know that there has been considerable improvement during the year. When I first came to this House I became aware that some school buildings were in a scandalous condition. I remember a teacher telling me that not only was she afraid of the mice in her school but she was also afraid of the rats there. It is difficult enough to control a class of children at any time but it is impossible if the teacher is standing on her desk screeching at the mice. Those days have gone but there are schools about which decisions have not yet been reached. A number of prefabricated buildings are being used and these are all right but they should be used only on a temporary basis.

I suppose it is not for me to refer to schools in Dublin county but in the parish in which I live, Ballyroan, while two new national schools have been built they are now inadequate to cater for the exploding population in that parish. Certainly, in so far as accommodation for little girls is concerned in the Convent of Mercy there, the sisters are anxious because the classes are very big and getting bigger. One sister to whom I spoke told me that she has been to the Department many times but has not succeeded as yet in getting anything done. I appreciate that schools cannot be put up overnight but in these expanding parishes in areas in County Dublin there should be some sort of crash programme.

We owe it to our children to give them the best possible education and if we do not start right we will never achieve this. I have seen classes in County Dublin where teachers are trying to teach vast numbers in limited space. This is not fair either to the teachers or to the children. As I have remarked to a number of teachers, they deserve gold medals for succeeding in keeping the children under control in such conditions let alone imparting knowledge to them. I find it difficult enough to control three or four around the house but one often finds between 20 and 40 children in a small classroom.

Other speakers have referred to the question of Garda barracks. In my constituency there are barracks which may be closed in a few years so that it is not considered worth while spending any money on them. I appreciate the difficulty involved but something should be done to improve them. I would not work for diamonds in one of those buildings. There have been some that have been improved but a great deal more could be done. Most of those barracks are very drab in colour. They were painted in greens and browns and other colours that would not show the dirt but if they were painted in the lighter colours it would be much more pleasant for those who must work in them.

I am glad that the Parliamentary Secretary mentioned development of the Shannon for recreation and tourist purposes. The Shannon has enormous potential that so far has not been used. I know there are people who will argue that it would be much better to drain the Shannon than to spend money developing it for tourist purposes but it is obvious that, with the limited amount of money available to the Board of Works, the best thing for them to do is to continue to develop the river for tourist purposes.

I often drive through my constituency and each time I am in the Portumna, Woodford, Shannonbridge and Killaloe areas, it occurs to me that the Shannon is not nearly as much appreciated as it ought to be. There is a particular drive from Portumna to Woodford that it is well worth anyone's while to travel on a fine day. A great deal more could be done and should be done to develop the Shannon. Parts of it are as beautiful as Killarney any time.

National monuments, too, come under the Office of Public Works but one wonders if they should. Our country is rich in tradition but perhaps we do not teach our children enough about those traditions. Certainly, we were remiss in a great many ways when we allowed many of our beautiful places to be destroyed. Places that may not be regarded as being of national interest, such as Coole, should have been preserved. There are many other such places in my constituency. A good deal of work is done by Bord Fáilte in so far as the compilation of data about these places is concerned but I agree with Deputy Flanagan when he says that instead of putting a plaque on a national monument warning that a prosecution will be taken if the monument is defaced, it would be better if we were to put a plaque on it stating that this was the home of so-and-so and other such information.

The Office of Public Works use one particular flowerpot—the slab concrete one—which is the most hideous object that could be imagined. They are outside Leinster House and Derrynane and many other places but they are very much out of place in these surroundings. Many old buildings come down which contain beautiful cut stone which could be incorporated in some way in these places rather than using these wretched bowls of concrete.

Progress reported; Committee to sit again.