Dáil Éireann debate -
Thursday, 23 Jul 1970

Vol. 248 No. 12

Committee on Finance. - Vocational Education (Amendment) Bill, 1970: Committee and Final Stages.

Question proposed: "That section 1 stand part of the Bill."

Mr. Clinton

Section 1 deals with the measure of co-operation that is permitted between various bodies and vocational education committees in the setting up of these schools. I have a particular problem in regard to this. There are various ways, as the Minister knows, in which this co-operation can come about. It can come about by the transfer of pupils or by the transfer of teachers and by the sharing of buildings, provided these schools are close enough together, but there is much resentment about a suggestion which emanated from the Department that subjects like woodwork and metalwork, which have always been the responsibility of vocational education committees, will become a common responsibility and even carried on in rooms set aside in part of the vocational schools. This proposal has emanated from the Department in relation to the new schools at Tallaght where there is a complex of 15 acres and where it is proposed to set up three schools. In Tallaght, it is proposed to have one central building in which metalwork and woodwork, and, perhaps, various other activities, will be carried on. The vocational school is in another place; the convent is in another place and the secondary school in yet another. Nobody is directly responsible for woodwork and metalwork. There is serious resentment about this and a schedule of accommodation was sent last Easter to the Department but still there has been no decision on it.

I want to emphasise that the form of co-operation here is extremely important and it is a matter of serious concern to the parties involved. The Minister will have to be very careful about his decisions as to how this co-operation should take place. Everybody wants to see this sort of thing work; everybody wants to see this interchange of pupils and teachers between schools. However, some subjects were traditional vocational subjects and I might say that there the vocational education committees have done a first-class job turning out people with group certificates. We are trying to expand and to have industrial development and, therefore, it is extremely important that an organisation which has done a good job in this regard should be left with this responsibility. It should not be thrown out into the middle of an area as nobody's responsibility.

Mr. Faulkner

In relation to the co-operation I have in mind, there will be joint management and the joint facilities would not belong to one or the other. If, for example, it was decided that a laboratory was needed and that this laboratory would be sufficient for two schools in a small town, then if the vocational education committee and the management of the secondary school agreed to co-operate they would be enabled to co-operate financially as well as in the manner in which they have been co-operating up to now and they will have joint management and joint control of the laboratory.

As I pointed out, I have left this whole matter flexible so that local agreement and local circumstances can be taken into consideration. When coming to an arrangement in regard to the joint management of either part of a school or all of a school, this arrangement will be a matter for local agreement. All the matters Deputy Clinton has mentioned can be thrashed out and agreement can be arrived at. Nobody is being compelled to join in this, but the opportunity is available and I shall be very pleased if people avail of it.

Mr. Clinton

One of the results of this will be that it will delay the building of schools. This argument can go on, with people refusing to co-operate, and one side saying they should have something and the other side saying they should not have it. In those circumstances who will decide? The Minister did not reply to what I said about the traditional subjects in regard to which the vocational organisation has done a first class job. He now says this will go out to joint management with, for instance, a convent. What interest will a convent have in metalwork and woodwork? This is the sort of thing that is proposed. These are not traditional subjects of the secondary schools. It is as if the Minister were to decide that a traditional subject of the secondary school should now be come a subject in which the vocational authorities would have equal rights and equal say even though it has always been a traditional subject of the secondary school.

Mr. Faulkner

If I were to follow the Deputy's line to its logical conclusion we would have no co-operation at all. I agree with what Deputy Desmond said; the breaking down of the barriers is the really important thing. Flexibility is necessary in order that agreement can be reached at local level.

Mr. Clinton

If we live long enough!

Mr. Faulkner

There is no question of that. I visualise this actually speeding up building. There will be problems and we will deal with them when we meet them. We can iron out everything when we know what the problems are.

Mr. Desmond

I do not want to dispense any particular advice to the Minister on this innovation. We have to keep a very open mind. I am rather concerned about some of the speculations in regard to this development, particularly outside Dublin city area; to put it delicately, those in the non-vocational sector will be more inclined to get for themselves the best of all possible worlds. I would urge the Minister to be rather tight-fisted and to be very tough with those who want substantial State assistance to expand their line quite dramatically. When it all boils down, this would be their own private property. This is the sort of thing that could be done more effectively on a joint basis between the local vocational education committee and the management of the local secondary schools. I do not want in any way to detract from or lessen the tremendous contribution made by those engaged in the traditional secondary school sector, but I am extremely conscious of the pressures which can be exerted so dramatically and so influentially at the secondary level when it comes to the provision of language laboratories, science laboratories and so on. This is an extremely costly educational infrastructure. In the dispensing of funds the Minister should tend towards the vocational education sectors. I share Deputy Clinton's concern in this. Those who would stand to gain must be prepared to shed some of their own developments, developments which might be very valuable and very fruitful from their point of view.

Mr. Tunney

I share Deputy Clinton's anxiety. I maintain that as and from now we should cease to differentiate between the vocational school and the secondary school. I cannot understand why there ever should have been this differentiation. In the vocational school students are trained to follow certain vocations. Likewise, students in the secondary schools are trained. We should do away with this "they" and "us". Vocational schools are now giving tuition in subjects which were hitherto regarded as traditional secondary school subjects—French, German and so on. Because one type of subject was taught at point A and another at point B we cannot continue perpetuating this difference. We must discontinue the suggestion that there is any difference between the vocational school and the secondary school. There is none.

Mr. Faulkner

In case there is any misunderstanding, this Bill in no way takes from the standing of vocational education committees. As I see it, it enhances their standing. We are not denigrating the contribution made by any type of school. In fact, I should like here to express my appreciation of the work done by all types of schools.

With regard to co-operation, let me take an example: take a small town in which there is a convent school, a brothers' school and a vocational school. Each working on its own might have 140 pupils. With 140 pupils it is not possible to provide the broad curriculum which is essential if we intend to develop the individual abilities of the different children. I visualise co-operation between all three and, instead of having 140 children at each of the schools, we would have a total enrolment of 420 children. One could then provide a broad curriculum and develop all the abilities of all the different types of children attending these schools. In achieving this co-operation the rights of all three groups would be respected.

As I said earlier, my concern here is that we have provided free education but we have not yet succeeded in providing equality of opportunity. The child attending a small school where it is not possible to make a broad curriculum available cannot hope to compete with a child attending a very much larger school in a bigger town. Therefore, one of the reasons behind this Bill is to endeavour to provide this equality of opportunity in so far as that is possible for all the children.

Mr. Clinton

I think everybody agrees with the sort of co-operation outlined by the Minister. My complaint is that he should set up an additional institution—a limbo—in a centre where you have three or four large schools. That is what is proposed in the particular instance I gave to the House: nobody is responsible and traditional subjects are taken away from the vocational authorities who always did them and always did a good job. It has all appearance of disregarding the great need for turning out more and more technicians in this country. We have to be very careful about this. Otherwise we shall get anything but co-operation; we shall get opposition in no uncertain terms. It is building up in the case with which I am acquainting the Minister. I trust he will use his influence to ensure that this sort of thing does not go on for too long.

You have this argument about the schedule of accommodation in these new schools and you have a situation where you have three or four different architects who are supposed to be co-operating. But they cannot draw up their plans until a schedule of accommodation is agreed on. If we are going to take away the traditional subjects from the responsibility of the body that normally carried them out, it can cause endless arguments.

Question put and agreed to.

Section 2 agreed to.

SECTION 3.

Question proposed: "That section 3 stand part of the Bill."

Mr. Desmond

When will the Minister constitute the committee?

Mr. Faulkner

I shall set the machinery in train relatively soon.

Question put and agreed to.

Title agreed to.

Bill reported without amendment, received for final consideration and passed.