Deputy Bruton gave notice that he would raise on the Adjournment the subject matter of Questions Nos. 114 and 115 of 4th June.
Adjournment Debate: Telephone Kiosks.
These questions relate to the criteria used by the Department of Posts and Telegraphs in deciding what rural areas should be provided with telephone kiosks. The present rules are unduly rigid in operation in that certain areas which merit kiosks are, by virtue of various factors I shall outline, deprived of these kiosks under the present rules.
In Question No. 114 I asked the Minister for Posts and Telegraphs if:
he will revise the regulations governing the extended kiosk programme for rural areas to ensure that the usage of the call office telephone is not the sole determining factor in assessing the demand for a kiosk in a particular area; and if he will take particular cognisance of factors such as the number of coin-operated telephones in business premises in the area, the convenience of the call office to local shopping centres, etc., and the general availability of other means of communication with the outside world in the area.
The relevant part of the Minister's reply reads as follows:
Rural areas are selected for inclusion in the expanded rural kiosk programme on the basis of the use being made of the call office telephone in the local sub-post office. This is considered to be the best and fairest method of selection and I do not propose to revise it.
In other words, the sole criterion used by the Department to determine whether an area shall have a kiosk is the usage of the post office phone. If there is not a post office in an area, under present rules the district has no hope of getting a telephone kiosk. Perhaps there is a post office but the phone may not be used to a large extent—possibly because it may be inconveniently sited or there may be coin box phones in the area. These facts, however, are not taken into consideration when an application is made for the provision of a kiosk. The only criterion is the usage of the post office phone.
This is an unduly rigid criterion. We must remember that a kiosk is open for 24 hours, unlike the public phone in the post office or the phones in business premises, which are available only during office hours. In the provision of kiosks consideration is given only to areas where there is a post office, but surely some thought should be given to districts that have no such facility? While we can measure the demand that may exist for a kiosk in an area in which there is a post office, there is no way of assessing the demand that may exist for a kiosk in an area without a post office.
Let me cite an example of a district on a busy county road—I have in mind the road between Kells and Navan. There is not sufficient population along this road to merit the provision of a post office but there is a vast amount of passing traffic. If there is an accident in the middle of the night or a breakdown, the people concerned must ask the permission of a householder to use his phone or else they will have to walk to Kells or Navan. This road has one of the worst accident rates in the country but because there is not a post office located there a kiosk will not be provided.
An example is the area of Tankardstown, where it is generally conceded that there should be a kiosk but, again, it cannot be provided under the present rules. Liscarton is a rapidly developing area but, despite the fact that there will be a considerable demand for a kiosk, it will not be provided. There are many isolated areas with poor roads leading to them, but if it is decided that the usage of the post office phone is not sufficient they will not get a kiosk. This can often result in hardship and inconvenience. I know of an area called Ticknevin in County Kildare in my constituency. There is only one road leading into this village which is situated in the Bog of Allen, but there is a large school there. Despite these facts a telephone kiosk will not be provided.
The civil servants with whom I have discussed this matter have sympathy for people living in areas with high accident rates, in newly developing areas and in isolated districts, but under the present rules they cannot do anything to help. The usage of a post office phone is not a true guide to the actual demand for a telephone kiosk. It is possible that there might not be adequate privacy in the post office to make telephone calls and for this reason people might prefer to use the phone in a private house. In addition, there might be a large number of business premises or public houses in the area where coin box phones are available. In both cases this could lead to an unduly low usage of the post office phone and would not be a true representation of the actual demand for a kiosk.
Nevertheless, when both the post office and these business premises would be closed down, there would be a very great demand for a kiosk there.
This is another factor which takes away from the validity of the criteria at present in use. In the town of Kilmessan there is a large number of shops and public houses with coin-operated telephones. There, the call office is not used sufficiently. Again, take a place like Clonee in my constituency with the main Dublin-Navan road passing through it and where there is a large number of licensed premises with coin-operated telephones. There, there would probably be a very great demand for a telephone kiosk. But, because the post office is the only thing that is considered, it probably will not get a telephone kiosk for quite some time.
Again, you might have the case also that the post office telephone might not be used to any great extent because it is inconveniently sited in the village in question. It might be sited well away from the main shopping centres. I have particular places in mind. It could be down at one end of the town, far away from the shopping centre where most people would congregate and where perhaps they would like to make use of a public telephone. In that case, they would use one in a business premises and would not trudge all the way down to the post office premises unless they wanted to buy stamps or do some business which would bring them there. In that case, the actual demand for a telephone in that area would not truly be represented by the actual usage of the post office telephone.
This brings me to Question No. 115 which is the other question I propose to raise. I asked the Minister for Posts and Telegraphs:
if public telephone kiosks are available in all places where rural Garda stations have been closed down in the past ten years and if he will give an assurance that such kiosks will be available in any place where a Garda station may be closed in future.
In his reply, the Minister for Posts and Telegraphs, Deputy G. Collins, said that in relation to the past ten years he understands that 58 Garda stations have been closed and that the Department of Posts and Telegraphs have provided telephone kiosks in 17 of these places.
They provided such kiosks in only 17 out of 58 places where Garda stations were closed down. In other words, areas where people had previously been able to get in touch with probably the most important people concerned with the preservation of law and order, the Garda, and where they are no longer able to meet them personally— in only 17 places out of 58 such places were people able to get in touch with them by means of a telephone kiosk. It is most likely that people needing the help of the Garda will need that help at night when private houses and business premises will not easily be available. Crime might take place at night in areas where previously the people could get in touch with the Garda, who were available locally but who must now be contacted by telephone. Consider the position when there is no easy access to a telephone on such an urgent occasion. Closure of the rural Garda station should be a consideration for providing a kiosk in that area.
The Minister is precluded from giving any cognisance whatever to this because, under the extended rural kiosk programme, it is laid down that the only consideration that can be taken into account is the usage of the post office telephone. In other words, areas which are isolated, areas which have lost their police force, areas which, for various reasons, may not use the actual post office telephone, cannot be considered under the present criteria because we have this very neat system of usage solely of the call office telephone. It is a very convenient system. It is an immediate slide-rule by which you can tot up the number of calls. It does not involve anybody in making any real judgment as to the usage. They have a mathematical formula for arriving at whether or not a decision should be made to provide a phone in a particular area.
This is very convenient for the civil servants or for the Minister in avoiding local pressure. Surely the criteria should be widened so that the Minister can take into account the factors I have mentioned? Obviously other considerations which now elude me could demonstrate that there is a demand for a telephone kiosk quite apart from the usage of the call office telephone. Probably the Minister will not give me satisfaction in his reply tonight but I will ask him to consider what I have said so that, when revising this extended rural kiosk programme, he will try to find some way of having greater discretion in the choice of areas and that the use of the post office telephone will not be the only criterion.
In the first place. I am glad Deputy Bruton has had an opportunity of getting this great big load off his chest, even if it is a late hour at night and if it is a considerable inconvenience to the staff, who are overworked and very tired.
Deputy Bruton painted a very bad picture of the operations of the Department of Posts and Telegraphs—a picture I believe to be false and untrue. When Deputy Bruton had questions down for reply on 4th June—Nos. 114 and 115—I gave him what in my opinion was very clear and concise information, information that would satisfy any Deputy, I should imagine; information that would have satisfied me personally if I had put down such questions to a Minister for Posts and Telegraphs.
Deputy Bruton might not be aware that up to very recently it was not the policy of the Department of Posts and Telegraphs to provide telephones in rural areas. We did have a policy change in 1969. We provided a certain sum of money for the provision of kiosks in rural areas. Whereas last year we had approximately 50 kiosks to our credit, at the end of this year we hope to have 150.
I will say that I have a certain amount of sympathy with some of the things Deputy Bruton said, but not with everything he said. I am quite sure that Deputy Bruton is quite sincere when he says that the road between Kells and Navan is very important. I am quite sure that Deputy Bruton could possibly justify the case for the provision of a telephone on this road. Does he want a telephone between every village and town in this country? Where would the money come from for this purpose. This is a ridiculous suggestion—and I am sorry to have to say this to the Deputy. Is he trying to tell the House that we should provide a telephone at every crossroads and every townland in the country?
It is nothing of the sort. It is distortion.
We could not even consider this at all. Deputy Bruton mentions places such as Tankardstown, Ticknevin, Kilmessan and Clonee. With regard to Tankardstown and Ticknevin, in County Kildare, I am not able to talk on the claim of these two particular townlands, or they might be bigger than townlands, for a telephone. If the Deputy asks a question at a later stage, I shall be only too glad to deal with these two cases but I am not prepared to talk about them now.
I have already asked about them.
Deputy Bruton mentioned Kilmessan. When he had this question down, I gave Deputy Bruton a very good reason why this place could not be provided with a telephone within the foreseeable future. Deputy Bruton seems to think that we have a rigid rule here in the Department of Posts and Telegraphs and that, if this rule is to be observed with regard to the provision of a kiosk, telephones cannot be given to areas except where call office telephones have been used. This is not the end of the claim of these people for a telephone, if they want to go further about it. If a group of people in an area such as Tankardstown or Ticknevin or Kilmessan can convince their local authority of the need for a telephone kiosk then, through the local authority, the Deputy can get the local authority to go guarantor for those people and provide them with a telephone. It has been done before and we shall be only too glad to consider an application for a claim if this procedure is followed.
I agree that the guideline which we have been using for the siting of kiosks in rural areas, that is the number of calls going through the call office phone, is not an infallible guideline. It could not be infallible. But it is a good guide. From long practical experience the Department have found this to be a good and, indeed, a very fair guide. I agree it is not the final answer but it is the best that is available to us. We have to work on this until some other method can be developed that would help us in making these decisions.
I agree with the Deputy that it can happen, but I would say very rarely, that post offices are not sited in the best locations. This is no fault of the Department. It often happens that the premises available to us for post offices are not in the exact centre or in the best location in the area the post office is to serve. As far as possible these post offices are centrally located and we put these kiosks, these public telephones, outside them. We have had very few complaints in the Department. If, as the Deputy says, these call boxes are not being used, due to the fact that they are not centrally located, or that they are awkwardly sited, I would suggest that, since the guideline we have to follow is reasonably clearly spelt out for the Deputy, then if the people in the locality or the area are really serious about getting a telephone kiosk, they should try to use the call office phone for a year or two and in that way help themselves. They have the remedy in their own hands, if they want to use it.
The Deputy mentioned the provision of telephone kiosks in areas in which Garda stations have been closed down. He quoted from the Official Report of the Dáil debates but he did not give the full quotation. He said that only 17 telephones were provided in areas where Garda stations had been closed down, and that, in all, about 58 Garda stations had been closed down.
In the past ten years.
He forgot to mention that this year we are providing an extra six and we have planned to provide an extra ten very early next year.
I was talking in the past tense.
I gave this information to the Deputy on a previous occasion and I am surprised that he did not think it worth his while to mention it. He seems to think that the people in rural Ireland will have great difficulty in contacting the Garda authorities, if they need to contact them. I am satisfied that the difficulty will not be as great as Deputy Bruton thinks it will be. I come from a rural area myself, an area which might not be regarded as being as well off as the area in the constituency of Meath from which the Deputy comes. We have not got telephone kiosks in every townland or crossroads—but we can still get in touch with the Garda if we want to.
It is a well known fact that there are many private subscribers with telephones—with coin boxes in some instances—and these people will certainly facilitate their neighbours, if necessary.
At 4 o'clock in the morning?
Certainly, or at 6 o'clock in the morning if necessary.
That would not be very easy.
It might not be very easy, but does the Deputy want a phone in every townland, or at every crossroads? I have not got the capital available and, even if I had, I have not got the staff available to do what the Deputy seems to want me to do for his own political promotion and gain, irrespective of cost.
I just want greater discretion. That is all. Not necessarily more phones.
Order. The Minister.
More discretion in siting them.
When we have to look at the deciding factors for kiosk location in rural areas we first consider the location of the existing call office telephone which is being replaced. Then we have to consider the convenience of those likely to use it. Thirdly, we have to site the kiosk where it will attract the maximum revenue. The Deputy forgets that it has been the policy for a fairly long time that the Department should pay their way as far as possible. In 1969 we decided to draw up this plan for the provision of kiosks in the rural areas. In our first year we provided a little over 50. This year we are providing 150. This is a fairly reasonable start considering the costs of the kiosks and the other things we have to consider. We have to get our priorities right. While I have a certain amount of sympathy for Deputy Bruton's point of view, my sympathy must be tempered by commonsense. If the Deputy could do the same with his emotional thinking he would agree with me.
The Dáil adjourned at 12 midnight until 10.30 a.m. on Thursday, 30th July, 1970.