I suppose this debate will go down on record as the longest debate on the Office of Public Works.
Committee on Finance. - Vote 8: Public Works and Buildings (Resumed).
Debate resumed on the following motion :
That the Vote be referred back for reconsideration.
—(Deputy Kenny).
The Deputy is not helping.
If the Deputy who has left the Connemara Gaeltacht will listen for a minute he will, I am sure, realise I am going to be most helpful.
A Deputy
Deputy Geoghegan represents Galway.
I did not think there was anyone left in Galway. According to the reports we have heard I thought they had all emigrated. People have come to realise that the Office of Public Works which for many years was treated as a very junior part of the Department of Finance, is a very important section. I consider that the present holder of the office of Parliamentary Secretary is doing a reasonably good job, as good a job as can be expected from any Parliamentary Secretary belonging to his party. He and his officials have been most courteous but there are a number of matters which I should like to refer to today. While 22 speakers have spoken for 38 hours since this debate began last July I hope to make my own points within the next hour or so. I am sure the Parliamentary Secretary will agree that most of the matters I shall put to him are ones which he can do something about and he will, no doubt, be glad to be reminded that they have not yet been done.
A matter which has arisen during the last couple of weeks is the drainage work now being carried out on the River Boyne. Most people in the area had expected this work to be carried out years ago. A tremendous amount of land is water-logged and when the job is finished I am sure it will make the land very much richer farm land.
There are, however, a number of points worthy of reference. Would the Parliamentary Secretary consider doing something to protect the wild life in the area because with the disappearance of the wet land there will also be the disappearance of the wild life which has been settling and breeding in the area for very many years? I suggested to the Minister for Lands some time ago that the estuary of the Boyne should be turned into a nature reserve. He said he would consider it but nothing appears to have been done about it since. Would the Parliamentary Secretary please make a note of the fact that this has been mentioned by a number of interested parties and see if he can do something to preserve the bird life in the area by making the estuary of the Boyne a bird sanctuary?
I do not know what followed the court case as a result of which a change was made in the type of work being carried out on the Boyne at Navan and at Drogheda but I should like an assurance from the Minister that because work is being restricted there is not going to be any danger of flooding in Navan this year. Work from Navan up towards the source is being carried out well but I am sure the Parliamentary Secretary will understand if extra water flows down and it cannot get through Navan there is a grave danger that flooding in Navan could be worse this year as a result of what has happened. Spicer's Weir has been removed and apart from the fact that it means the people of Navan have been left without their swimming pool—and will be until a swimming pool is erected in the town —it has obviated the danger of flooding, but with the extra water flowing in there may still be a danger of flooding. I should like to know if in the event of flooding, proposals have been made to relieve pressure further down the river. I do not know if the Parliamentary Secretary can tell me why it was suddenly decided to move into one of the tributaries and do work there, meanwhile leaving the main river. This may be part of a plan but it appears to me to be rather peculiar that a tributary in the country should be cleared while no way has been made for the water to get away.
I have put down a Parliamentary Question for next week on the next matter I am going to raise but if the Parliamentary Secretary is able to answer my query I shall probably withdraw it. When the arterial drainage on the Boyne reached a certain stage in other areas water for the public and private supplies in the district disappeared. It is all very well saying that we cannot stop progress; it is all very well saying that the drainage had to be done in a certain way which could result in hardship but I am sure the Board of Works will agree that if by draining the river they take away the supply from wells which have been in operation for a long time and from private and public supplies, which have cost a great deal of money to install, there must be some onus on somebody to help deal with the problem. The Parliamentary Secretary might be able to get the outfit who are supposed to have sunk the well at the school in White Cross, Julianstown, from 61 feet to 90 feet for nothing, to do something about it. He might get them to do the work in this area for nothing and see if they could restore some of the water because the people living there are creating an uproar, as they are entitled to do. I do not want to give the impression that they are Luddites and want to stop progress and do not want machines to operate but they object strongly to being put in the position, as one man said to me, of having to wash potatoes in milk since no water was available. This did occur in other areas.
I am sure everybody connected with the Board of Works will remember when a very wet area in north Meath was drained—when the Glyde and Dee scheme was done it resulted in the disappearance of water even from a well sunk 160 or 170 feet. I do not know the answer to this problem but it is not enough to say that the Board of Works have no responsibility. If there is some small print somewhere saying they are not liable for this damage this is a case where there should be a little common sense and some effort should be made by the Minister or Parliamentary Secretary to have this difficulty quickly cleared up. The engineer in charge of the scheme is a decent man but I am sure his hands are tied by some regulation. Meath County Council will be prepared to co-operate in anything being done because a number of public pumps provided by Meath County Council are affected as well as private supplies, group water schemes and so on. The matter is very serious and I should be glad to have something done very quickly. If the Parliamentary Secretary is replying to this debate before my question comes up I should be glad to have his answer; if not, perhaps he would reply to my question.
I am very interested in what happens when schemes are finished. While I believe the Board of Works are doing an excellent job of arterial drainage there seems to be a peculiar arrangement whereby when schemes are doing finished a certain amount of money is levied on the local authority area supposed to be drained by the scheme. This money is collected annually by the Office of Public Works for maintenance. What does the Parliamentary Secretary estimate will be the cost of maintenance on the Boyne? I am sure it is possible to give this information because there is the precedent established with other rivers. When the job is finished and a certain amount of money put on the rates and paid to the Office of Public Works for maintenance, is there any guarantee that money will be spent on the particular river?
My reason for that question is that I have in mind the Broadmeadow river which was drained some years ago and for which the Meath and Dublin County Councils are paying a contribution to the Office of Public Works for maintenance. I understand no maintenance work worth talking about has been carried out and that there are portions of the scheme and particularly of tributaries to the Broadmeadow that are now almost as bad as before the scheme was carried out.
While maintenance is being carried out every year in the case of the Glyde and Dee, at the end of a certain period the men employed on these jobs are laid off. I had words with the Parliamentary Secretary last year about this and he told me he would try to keep them in employment this year. The unfortunate feature of maintenance work is that the lay-off usually occurs about the middle of December. Some years ago, I understand, maintenance work was carried out on most rivers until late February but the pattern has changed and they are now laid off in mid-December. If the Parliamentary Secretary or his officials know of any place where casual labourers can find employment from mid-December until the following April or May I should like to hear of it because I do not know of it.
I suppose this happens in other counties but it has the result that these people who work a 42½ hour week and give good results for the money they get are forced to go on the labour exchange when laid off and in some cases they are paid nearly as much in social welfare benefits as they would get if they were employed. This is a case of the right hand not knowing what the left hand is doing. People who would much prefer to be working are put on the exchange to draw benefit. The single men do not get very much but whatever they get there are three factors involved. First, the men are being paid from State funds which involves a loss to the State. Secondly, these men pay income tax and therefore there is another loss to the State. Thirdly, all of them stamp cards and when they are unemployed there is a third loss to the State. When one estimates the amount of loss which occurs because these men are laid off the useful work which they were doing and put on the labour exchange one usually finds the net loss is greater than the gain which the Office of Public Works achieves by laying them off.
I want to ask particularly what will happen in regard to the men employed on the Glyde and Dee scheme because that was where there was a good deal of trouble in the past few years. Earlier this year, the Parliamentary Secretary told me that he proposed to arrange that they should get at least nine months work. It appears that promise will not be carried out and there is a danger that the men will be laid off within the next month and that they will have the usual Christmas holidays at their own expense. Could the Parliamentary Secretary ensure that these men are not laid off until mid-February? Is the reason for the change of plan that the men have got, in common with other public service employees, an increase of £2 10s per week from 1st April and that, in fact, like the Kilkenny cats, they are being fed with their own tails and are being laid off because the money which was expected to keep them going to mid-February is being paid to them earlier? If this is so it is something which should be examined. I am not aware of any other employee of the Board of Works, particularly those employed on inside jobs or any senior officials from engineers down to foremen, who will be laid off because they have got an increase in wages and possibly a bigger increase than the unfortunate men who were out in the wet and cold every day of the week.
It appears that this is the old story of discrimination against the man at the bottom of the ladder and being laid off because the money is necessary to pay those who in many cases are much better off. The Parliamentary Secretary will agree that this is an unfair way of dealing with the matter and I should be glad if he will look into it. I know from previous occasions that he has an open mind about this sort of thing and that he has dealt with it fairly. I give credit where it is due. Again, therefore, I ask him to consider this matter and see that this little trick is not worked so that the man with the shovel is left at home to ensure that the man with three times as much salary gets an increase and that there is no danger of anybody at that level losing money.
I should also like to ask the Parliamentary Secretary what has happened in regard to the negotiations which took place earlier this year concerning an improved sick pay and pension scheme. Has any provision been made to ensure that this scheme can be put into operation? The information I got was that it would be necessary to bring in a Supplementary Estimate for the Board of Works for the purpose of providing the necessary funds, particularly for the pension scheme. Surely, if such a Supplementary Estimate was necessary, the time to bring it in was when this Estimate was before the House so that both could be discussed simultaneously. It does not appear as if that Supplementary Estimate is being brought in and I can assure the Parliamentary Secretary that there are people who have ceased their employment with the Board of Works, because of illness or age, since the scheme was initiated and they have been told they cannot be paid because there is no provision for finding the money. This is unfair. I am sure the Parliamentary Secretary agrees with me in that. I am not accusing him of knowing that this has happened. I just mention it as a fact.
For some extraordinary reason the negotiation for the public service, concluded at the same time, was not put into operation by the Board of Works at the same time as it was by other State employers. I am sure the Parliamentary Secretary and the House will find it hard to believe that arrears of wages of £2 10s per week for certain Board of Works employees have not yet been paid. The agreement was that all State employees should be paid on 25th September. The Forestry Division are by far the largest employers of outside labour and the Forestry Division paid not alone the increase but also the arrears due from 1st April to all their employees from 25th September last. The Board of Works paid the increased amount that week but I am told they are still calculating the amount of arrears due. If that is not ludicrous then I should like someone to tell me what it is. The impression created is that there are hundreds of thousands involved. Actually the number involved is not anything like the number employed by the Forestry Division and I cannot see why these people should not have been paid the arrears due.
In addition to that a 25s per week increase was to be paid to certain employees from 1st October last. I know there was some messing around on the part of some of the people representing the employees but I still think that, considering the matter was cleared up several months ago, it is ridiculous to find that a number of these employees have not yet been paid the increase they should have been paid with effect from 1st October last.
This is the kind of thing I do not like having to raise here. There may be reasons for it. I imagine one of the main reasons why the increases have not been paid is because the Board of Works may be acutely understaffed. I do not know whether or not that is the position. The economy drive seems to have affected the Department of Social Welfare; in that Department senior officials are now doing the work juniors used to do and people are finding it extremely difficult to keep the outdoor payments up to date because of a shortage of staff. Has the same thing happened in the Office of Public Works? Is this the reason why the payments were not made when they should have been?
Again, with regard to rates of pay for different people in the Board of Works, some are paid the rate while others doing exactly similar work are not paid the same rate. Letters written in get an acknowledgment, but nothing is done. There is no decision. The officials have been most courteous and most helpful but that is very little use when someone goes to a trade union official and says: "I am not getting the rate of wages to which I am entitled and I want to know why" and that official writes to the Board of Works and gets just an acknowledgment. He does not hear another word about the matter for six months. That is not right and something should be done to bring labour relations up to date. It is a question of labour relations not being brought up to date. We have had to go to the Labour Court with some cases for a simple adjustment in wages. This sort of thing clutters up the court with matters with which the court cought not to be bothered but, if the people concerned are either too busy or have no authority to deal with the matter, then there is no other way out.
Arterial drainage will have to be brought up to date. The Act was passed in 1945 and it now appears as if it needs a bit of amendment. A few gentlement— I do not know if that is the correct term for them—can hold up a scheme. That has happened on both the Boyne and the Maigue. That scheme was held up for quite a period. These gentlement go to court on a technicality and the Board of Works are compelled to redraft the scheme at considerable cost simply because some interest these gentlemen have is, it is alleged, being interfered with. The Act needs amendment to ensure this kind of thing does not continue. I am a great believer in the right of people to protect their property but if people, out of cussedness, hold up a scheme beneficial to so many others, then there should be some way of dealing with that situation and they should not be allowed to hold up a scheme for months on end.
I want to know from the Parliamentary Secretary what the position is about bridges on main roads when an arterial drainage scheme is being carried out. It has been the practice that some work will be done on these bridges and there is then a battle royal between the local authority and the Board of Works to find out who is responsible for carrying out the maintenance work. This is a matter in which more co-operation should be sought. I have in mind the town of Trim in which there are a number of bridges. There are a number of people living beside the bridges and, if they are disturbed in any way, then they must be compensated for that disturbance. It is not sufficient to say that the Board of Works will be responsible for a certain portion of the work and the local authority must carry out the balance of the work. That is just not good enough. While the Board of Works are engaged on the Boyne drainage scheme there is a golden opportunity to deal with the bridge in Navan at which there have been so many accidents. Very few have been fatal, thank God, but the hospital in Navan has almost a full-time job coping with those brought in as a result of crashing into that bridge. I do not know why they do it, but there are accidents there every week. Is there a possibility of the Board of Works and the local authority getting together to do something about the bridge while the machinery and the men are available and while the Board of Works could supply a good deal of the money for doing the job?
Can the Parliamentary Secretary say if there is any proposal to take over the whole cost, or portion of it, of maintenance? At the moment Meath County Council are paying for the Broadmeadow, the Glyde and the Dee. If, in addition to that, they have to pay the major portion of the maintenance cost on the Boyne that will mean a very heavy impost on the rates. It is all very well to say that those who have their land drained should not complain—I am sure they will not —but that is cold comfort to those so remote from the river that, by no stretch of the imagination, could they be accused of getting any benefit good, bad, or indifferent. These people think it is unfair that they should be asked to meet a charge for something which does not do them any good. Eventually maintenance will have to be a national charge and I ask the Parliamentary Secretary now to consider this aspect. I know he shook his head when I asked him if anything was being done but I do not think the matter should be left at that.
A question was asked yesterday whether some of the work being done by the board could be given to certain contractors. I have great sympathy with those men who had been carrying out land drainage work. With the Parliamentary Secretary, I believe that when the Boyne scheme is finished there will be much work for these men. Yesterday somebody said that the job would take four years although the original estimate was ten years——
It is seven years.
For seven to ten years these men will not have any work and, although it is acknowledged that when the scheme is completed there will be plenty of work for them, they have got to earn their living in the mean-time. If it is true that they have a number of machines that could be used on this kind of job, and if it is true that the Office of Public Works propose to buy similar type machines so that they themselves can do the work— although the Parliamentary Secretary denied this—some satisfactory arrangement should be made between them and the contractors.
It is not enough to say that the Office of Public Works have been doing this type of work by direct labour for many years and that it is not proposed to change the system. I would be the last to suggest that the system should be changed because in most cases direct labour is the most satisfactory method. However, the Office of Public Works do not always carry out their work by direct labour. When one remembers the name of "Stone" one wonders whether they always carry out their operations by direct labour.
We have changed that and everybody is in direct labour now.
I know that and but for the fact that I do not want to delay the Parliamentary Secretary for a couple of hours I could hold forth on that aspect. However, I shall stick to the arterial drainage aspect——
I was partly instrumental in changing that policy.
The Parliamentary Secretary did a good job and it is a pity it was not done earlier. My argument about drainage contractors is that nobody should lose his job as a result of these people being employed. They have done an excellent job and are an asset to the country. The fact that they are on the spot and are available to do the work should be taken into consideration. I know it has been found necessary to bring people from one end of the country to the other to ensure that men who know how to work these machines are employed on drainage work. Some go willingly but some think it is not exactly what they like to do. If a man lives in County Kerry he may find it awkward to come up to County Meath; equally, men from Galway or Mayo who are brought to Meath or Limerick are not always too happy that the Office of Public Works can shunt them from one job to another, without much notice or compensation for travelling home at week-ends. I would ask the Parliamentary Secretary to meet a group from the drainage contractors and discuss the matter.
I have met them.
I know that but I think they got short shrift. Perhaps the Parliamentary Secretary would meet them again, having regard to the new situation. Yesterday the Parliamentary Secretary made a point which I regard as the key to the whole matter. Somebody suggested that jobs could be completed more quickly if these people were employed. The Parliamentary Secretary was quick to point out that this would require much greater expenditure each year than is being spent at the moment. I take this point but I believe this could be done without having to spend the extra money. The Parliamentary Secretary should try to co-operate in this matter because it would be a pity if the men have to sell their machines and go out of the country. When the drainage scheme on the Boyne is finished it will be a big loss if these people are not available to do the additional work that the farmers will require. Most of these men are married men and have families living in the area. They have been doing excellent work and the drainage work on the Boyne has meant that now they have not got any work. The Parliamentary Secretary would be well advised to talk to the people concerned.
With regard to national monuments I know that much work has been done and that some finds have been made during work on the Boyne and its tributaries. However, in the matter of preservation of national monuments we are moving much too slowly. I can always be told that unless the money is available we cannot do this work but much money is being spent on other less worthy projects. I acknowledge that much work has been done at Newgrange and the area is attracting a tremendous number of visitors. Any visitor to Newgrange must be impressed by what has been done in this area. Some years ago a suggestion was made that people visiting the area should be able to obtain some refreshments and it was suggested that a café be erected. I am sure everyone will agree with me that it is most annoying for visitors who travel many miles to Newgrange to find that there are no facilities for refreshments in the area. Nothing was done regarding the suggested café; even though the tourist people were in favour of the idea the Office of Public Works did not agree. I know there is a little shop nearby that sells ice cream.
I should like to know what progress has been made with Knowth and Dowth. They are close to Newgrange and perhaps the Parliamentary Secretary would let us know if it is proposed to deal with them in the same way. He might also let us know when we might expect some development work in these areas.
There has been much talk about Tara. If one views Tara from ground level it is not very imposing and to see it at its best one should get an aerial photograph or better still, view it from the air. When the late Donogh O'Malley was responsible for the Office of Public Works some years ago he declared in this House that he proposed to make Tara a national monument. As well as being a national monument Tara is also very good farmland and a man owns Tara and the mere fact that he owns Tara and that it is a national monument should mean that the man should be allowed to get the value of his farm. The Office of Public Works and others had been telling him that he is only entitled to get what they consider it is worth. He has not been allowed to sell it by public auction. He cannot receive the real worth of the farm. This is most unfair. He is not a political supporter of mine, but, nevertheless, I feel that when a man owns a farm which is valuable he is entitled to its value. Even if it happens to be the farm on which Tara is situated, he is still entitled to get its value. Certain excavations have been carried out there. Some important discoveries have been made but they are nothing like what could be expected if the job had been tackled properly and if enough money had been given to the people doing the job. If the Hill of Tara was elsewhere in the world it would be a great moneyspinner from the tourist point of view. Because we have this peculiar idea that Tara is a national monument and must not be sold, the man who owns it feels it will not realise its full value and it is left undeveloped. All that is to be seen is a rather disreputable statue of Saint Patrick. Someone fired at it some years ago and broke off portion of one of the hands. The story is that the man was drunk and was later found eaten by his own dogs which he had left hungry. Would the Office of Public Works consider putting a decent statue of St. Patrick on the Hill of Tara? Would they try to do something to show that Tara is a special place and not just another hill on a country farm?
There have been proposals from Meath County Council that a public toilet should be erected there. I do not think this is the most important item for Tara at present. An effort should be made to give some idea to the visitors at Tara, and particularly to foreigners, that this was the seat of the High Kings of Ireland. Some effort should be made to show where the various halls were and what Tara looked like. It is just a field which is not too well-fenced and with this inferior statue of St. Patrick.
Earlier this year the Parliamentary Secretary told me that he proposed to have some work done on King John's Castle at Trim. Some provision should be made to ensure that the work is done. Trim is a town which has many historic antiquities. There is an urban council there which cannot be expected to spend money on such work on the old buildings in the town. There are many ancient buildings in Trim. The Office of Public Works should make an extra effort. Perhaps the old castle could be developed into something like Bunratty Castle, which could be a moneyspinner. We may have our own views on whether Bunratty is what we want to potray as representing Ireland. This is another question. We need a tourist attraction. If King John's Castle could be turned into a tourist attraction, let us do so. Penny-pinching will not develop tourism in this country. This matter may be more relevant to a debate on tourism than to the present debate.
In the Boyne valley we have some of the most ancient monuments in the country. The effort which should be made to publicise this fact seems to be missing. Many of us are involved in tourism. Despite our efforts to highlight the fact, people do not seem to understand that the Boyne valley appears to have been one of the first places to be lived in by civilised people in this part of the world. There are places which are well worth seeing in the valley. People from other countries seem to be more interested in them than our own people. There may be thousands of people in Dublin who never heard of Newgrange or Rosnaree, not to speak of King John's Castle at Trim and places like that. Blame must rest on those responsible for these places. They should be properly looked after and signposted.
I asked a question yesterday about the water supply to the school at Julianstown. The question read as follows :
14. To ask the Minister for Finance the cost of the recent pump-boring operation carried out at White-Cross School, Julianstown, Drogheda, County Meath.
The reply which I got makes interesting reading. It is:
The original water supply to this school was from a 17 feet deep well sunk in 1960. The supply was satisfactory until 1969 when it failed. The well was then deepened to 61 feet at a cost of about £170. At that depth the supply proved satisfactory under test but earlier that year it failed again. Boring to a depth of 90 feet was then carried out but no water was found. I understand that no charge has been made for the extra boring...
When I found that boring was being done I spoke to the Parliamentary Secretary and told him that it was a stupid exercise. According to the local people, the boring would have to go down to the level of the local River Nanny before water could be found. At that stage the river is tidal. Therefore, the water would be of no use to the school. A local group had, in fact, negotiated to have a group water scheme put into operation, passing the school. The public supply of Meath County Council is less than ½ mile from the school in the village of Julianstown. The water must pass the school in order to be brought to the group wanting to use it. I could not understand why money was spent on boring for water which, it was feared, would be salt water, when the reasonable thing would have been for the Office of Public Works to have said to the group: "This will cost a couple of hundred pounds. We will give that to you. Will that help to speed up the group scheme?" I am sure it would. The only thing that has held it up so far, I understand, is that a special pipe is needed to take it across the bridge of the River Nanny and this has to be ordered from Britain. Despite this fact, the boring continued. The Parliamentary Secretary says no charge has been made for the extra boring from 61 feet to 90 feet. You do not get many people in this part of the country who are prepared to work for nothing. This is a costly business. Either the bill has not yet been presented or there is some other aspect to it: I am quite sure the work is not being done for nothing.
According to the contract, if he did get water, payment would be sought. There was no water and he did not charge. That is my information.
No water, no money.
I am prepared to accept what the Parliamentary Secretary says. A normal sinking for a pump in County Meath costs on average well over £300. Very often, when the water is got, there is mineral or something else in it and the people will not drink it. The man must get water if he goes to the depth of the river because the river is only about 150 yards from it. Are the Office of Public Works prepared to give some assistance to this group? The school will not qualify for the same grant as a house.
The manager of the school indicated he will join the scheme if the water supply——
The manager is a very decent, progressive man. What can he do unless he pays it out of his pocket or out of parish funds? Would the Office of Public Works be prepared——
I do not think that is usual.
Who would have paid for the sinking of the pump? Would the Office of Public Works not——
It is usually done on a percentage basis.
Some of it would be paid by the Office of Public Works?
As a rule, yes.
When a guaranteed supply can be given—because the county council supply the water.
The manager indicated he is prepared to join the scheme. If he wants to apply for a grant towards the cost, it will be examined when he applies. It is in the manager's hands, in the first instance.
He has permission to connect to a county council pump which is quite close to it. I would not ask for a definite reply here and now but the Parliamentary Secretary should be able to consider this matter. This is the sort of co-operation which will be much appreciated by the people running the group scheme. It will cost quite a bit and it will be extended from there. A larger pipe than is actually needed will be put in because, in time, it will be part of a regional scheme. The result is that it will now be a fairly costly job to bring it up to that point. Most of the houses to be connected will be vested council houses. They are not people with a lot of money to throw around.
I would urge the Parliamentary Secretary to ensure that employees of the Office of Public Works will not be laid off so far as the Glyde, the Dee and the Deale are concerned. I am told that a number will be transferred to another area. If they will be needed in the spring, an extra effort should be made to retain these people in employment. It seems to be the practice not alone here but in other countries that the men at the bottom of the ladder with regard to wages—if a lay-off is to take place—are laid off without compunction whereas people earning up to four times the weekly wages of one of these men and who may be just as redundant, in the event of a scheme not progressing as it should be progressing, are retained. If ten men, each earning about £14 a week, are laid off, then ten households are very adversely affected. Many of these men may cost the State nearly as much on the labour exchange as they would cost in wages and every effort should obviously be made to retain them in employment.
Mr. J. Lenehan
Deputy Tully has taken a lot of the steam out of what I had to say and therefore I shall be brief. He mentioned one thing which I consider of great importance, namely, the maintenance carried out on these rivers. One of the biggest schemes took place in Mayo and the maintenance is costing the whole county a lot of money through the rates. The unfair thing about this is that a man in Westport or in Blacksod who probably never saw the River Nore, and never wants to see it, must pay equally with the man whose land has been improved and who has been compensated for any damage done to his land, if any damage was ever done. I suggest there should be a national fund established to relieve ratepayers who derive no benefit from improvement schemes. Some of the greatest eyesores have been created by some of those schemes and I hope the Parliamentary Secretary will pay attention to them.
Deputy Tully spoke about national monuments. There are some really beautiful ones along the River Moy. They are the greatest eyesores in the country. I do not know what can be done about them but I suggest an arrangement with the road-making establishments of county councils might go a long way towards solving the problem of getting rid of those eyesores.
The things some people describe as ancient monuments would make one laugh. It fits in well with the type of society now emerging, a society with hair growing down to its knees. That society will describe anything as a national monument and ask to have it preserved. For instance, a picture alleged to be the work of a genius was hung upside down and it was sold for a fabulous sum because people could not pretend they did not see merit in it. In the same way a great many worthless monuments which are eyesores are being preserved as monuments at a time when some of our greatest national monuments are being allowed to go with the wind. We are preserving old English castles while nothing is being done to discover and to preserve the castles of such famous people as Granuaile. There are other national monuments, important monuments, which also deserve attention. I refer to Government and local authority buildings some of which have not been painted since they were erected. They are nothing short of eyesores and money spent redecorating them would be well spent.
I appeal to the Parliamentary Secretary to get local authorities to deal with their national monuments—courthouses and other buildings—which are a public disgrace. I should also like to say that I do not hold with the idea of the Board of Works or any other Government agency renting office accommodation. The Government should build the accommodation necessary to meet the needs of an expanding administration. There is plenty of space around our railway stations, particularly in this city, on which to build such accommodation, and I am sure CIE would welcome this new source of income. At the moment it is a bit of a laugh, though a sour one, to see foreigners coming in here making huge profits out of renting accommodation to Government institutions among others.
An extraordinary situation has arisen in the matter of closing down old national schools, some of them in reasonable condition. They have just been left there, abandoned. They were erected by the Board of Works. In some cases nobody seems to know who owns them. In two cases I know of, schools were turned into social centres, dancehalls. Then, of course, the county council came along to rate them and by some unknown type of magic it was suddenly discovered they belonged to the Board of Works. Those buildings had been altered without reference to anybody and this is unfair to the general body of taxpayers. Nobody should have been given the right to take them over. In one case, however, there appears to have been a clause in the agreement with the manager: the site had been bought by the manager through some kind of a church trust. In matters like this the public are entitled to protection.
Many of those discused national schools are being allowed to fall down at a time when we have an outcry for factory buildings and when we are trying to establish industrial estates. They could be converted quite easily and cheaply for use as small local industries, giving good employment. There are several such buildings in my constituency, including two vocational schools, which were never opened.
On the matter of river drainage, there has been a concentration on the big rivers while the needs of the people in backward areas, living on the banks of small rivers, are neglected. Many of those small rivers do far more damage than the big rivers. I have in mind particularly some of the smaller rivers in my area, such as the Erris. They do dreadful damage occasionally and they could be improved at a low cost. We are not looking for arterial drainage schemes like those on the Boyne and elsewhere. All we require is that the islands of silt in those smaller rivers be removed by machinery. On Tuesday last I called at the Land Commission, who used to look after those smaller rivers, but they told me it was a matter for the Board of Works. I had gone to complain that one of the worst landslides in history had occurred in my area. In my memory, the Board of Works have not done any work on those small rivers and I hope the Parliamentary Secretary will consider that point along with the others I have raised.
First of all, I sympathise with the Parliamentary Secretary on the amount of work he found in his office when he inherited it. I hope that by the time he leaves he will have made it easier for our shadow Parliamentary Secretary—that he will have got rid of the major portion of the backlog of work in that office at the moment.
The Board of Works are responsible for very important jobs throughout the country, very urgent jobs, especially in the area where I come from. I listened very carefully to the two previous speakers. One of them referred to the Hill of Tara which suddenly has become very important, and I thought of the 400 miles of coast in my constituency, of the amount of coast erosion occurring there and of the pittance that has been spent on it.
As regards coast erosion, every year the sea is taking its toll and valuable land is lost on the coast. Some years ago Cork County Council were asked to formulate schemes and send them to the Department of Local Government and to the Office of Public Works for urgent attention. These schemes were sent up in order of merit about six or seven years ago and we heard nothing about them since. Some little effort is being made in Youghal but there are several other areas on which Is has not been spent. If they had been tackled six or seven years ago, thousands of pounds would have been saved.
I should like to ask the Parliamentary Secretary what is the cause of the delay. Is it that he has not got enough money? If he has not he would be honest if he told Cork County Council: "We have not got the money to carry out these schemes and it would be better if the council tackled them themselves." The Office of Public Works do not appear to regard this work as being urgent.
I should also like to comment on the wages paid to the employees of the Office of Public Works. As Deputy Tully says, there appears to be a lot of dissatisfaction amongst the ordinary labourers employed by the Office of Public Works. They are just employed for a few months of the year. Their wages do not compare with the wages of county council employees. Could we be told why that is the case? If these people got fair play they would do more work.
Arterial drainage is completely forgotten in my constituency. The amount of money spent on it there is very small. A number of schemes have been on the waiting list for a considerable time. I would ask the Parliamentary Secretary to shake up his staff and get some of the dust off these schemes. The Illen River runs through Skibbereen. It is draining thousands of acres of land. It has been on the list for arterial drainage for a number of years but nothing has been done about it. When will this work start? Land project work is being held up and the land project people say they cannot drain other small rivers until the arterial job on the Illen River is completed. My colleagues and I were asked for a number of years by farmers in the area to do something about this because the quality of the land is not terribly good and drainage is very important.
The Saivnose River runs into the Illen going through the district of Drainage. The manager of the local creamery and the farmers there asked me to have a look at that river the other day. It is completely stopped. As a matter of fact, some of them said it is flowing backwards. The land project people cannot start work on this river until the Illen River is drained. The same applies to the Argideen which flows into Courtmacsherry. Some work was done on it a number of years ago but because it was not maintained it is now nearly as bad as it was. Some money should be put by for maintenance every year. There is no point in doing work and then finding after a few years that the river is blocked up with sandbars and no money is available to keep it clear. If a very small amount of money were provided each year this maintenance work could be done.
The Owenabuee flows into Cork Harbour. People from that area have been coming on deputations to meet various Parliamentary Secretaries as far back as I remember and nothing has been done. This river is draining thousands of acres. If the Parliamentary Secretary would come down there for a week we would take him around and show him what is happening and I am sure he would at least put some money into that area.
Coast erosion is No. 1. Would the Parliamentary Secretary look up the lists which were sent up by Cork County Council six or seven years ago and pick out another one or two of the schemes and get them started. If the job is not done soon it will be too late. On that coastline we have a large number of inshore fishermen. Some of the piers are totally inadequate. I was on a deputation to the Parliamentary Secretary recently to tell him that people are buying big boats but the piers cannot give the proper coverage. At Reen outside Union Hall a man had a boat ranging up to 70 feet but the pier could not handle a boat of 40 feet. Work was being done on that pier at the time but the men have left without completing the job. These are things the Parliamentary Secretary should think about.
There is also the question of the Garda stations. Many gardaí have told me that the houses they are living in are not in a proper state of repair. Since a number of Garda stations have closed in my constituency—I would say that over half of them have closed already and it appears that more of them will be closed in the near future —it should be easy for the Parliamentary Secretary to look after the few which are left.
The same applies to the schools. Children are attending some rural schools which are in the same condition as they were 100 years ago with no flush toilets and no running water. The Minister should do something about that problem. I would be prepared to support an increase in the Vote for this work because it is so important and urgent. I hope the Minister will consider the few proposals I have made and see to it that something is done in the coming year.
The discussion on this Estimate is rather difficult because the Board of Works, to some extent, have not got independent powers to carry out public works. They have to wait on recommendations from other Departments and consequently are in a position to disclaim responsibility for delays.
My review of this Estimate will centre mainly around local questions because I note that south-west Cork's share of the money being voted here will be relatively small. Perhaps the Deputies from south-west Cork and bodies like Cork County Council are not bringing sufficient pressure to bear on the Board of Works to get more money into the area for the implementation of essential works.
One of the works in which we are interested from a county point of view is the coast erosion scheme. A deputation from Cork County Council waited on the late Deputy O'Malley after a Bill was approved by the Oireachtas seven or eight years ago with a view to getting funds for County Cork. The amount of money expended on actual work to date is, I understand, negligible. Whatever money has been expended has been expended on plans and drawings and engineers and ups-and-downs and travelling here and there and very little real work has been carried out. Cork County Council were notified that the first actual work would be done in Youghal in east Cork and it was agreed that Youghal should get preferential treatment. We have a number of other schemes submitted—Garrettstown, Courtmacsherry, Union Hall—and we decided at a recent meeting of the county council to send a deputation to the Parliamentary Secretary to find out when money would be made available for such works. The whole thing is very frustrating. It is a matter of sending letters from one public body to another and having files and files of correspondence. Not alone is that very frustrating work, it is also very costly. All the people dealing with files of correspondence are highly paid public servants. There are excuses being sent up and down about delays. Deputy Lemass, the Parliamentary Secretary, should introduce a system of straight talking and other Departments should do so too. If money is not there for a job or if it is not likely that a particular job will be done until 1975, people should be told that and should not be sent letters telling them that there will be further inspection and that when that inspection has been carried out a report will be made available and then they will be reporting back again. That happens in all Departments in the State. We must have a straightforward approach so far as representations and replies to representations are concerned and when a local body is satisfied that a particular scheme is justified and when the Department examine that scheme they should be told approximately when the money will be made available. That would be the correct approach and I hope Deputy Lemass, a man for whom I have great respect, will change the system and if money is not there and if the work is not to be carried out in 1971, 1972 or 1973 let them say so.
The reason why I am so parochial is that I was reading through statements by previous speakers while Deputy Tully was speaking this morning and I noticed that many works are in operation throughout the country. There are major drainage schemes in operation in the midlands and our part of the country is making little or no advance in securing money for drainage.
So far as arterial drainage is concerned Deputy O'Sullivan mentioned the Argideen in regard to which representations have been made for a long time and also the Owenabuee. I heard him mention the Illen river in regard to which we made representations in times gone by to ensure a grant for arterial drainage and it was examined again and again. My latest information on this scheme is that there is now little demand for it. From the information at my disposal this could be struck off the list. Possibly people were labouring under a sense of frustration and, perhaps, the farmers feel that instead of helping them the scheme will hinder them. I have heard that there is very little likelihood of this scheme being carried out even if the people were anxious to have it carried out in the foreseeable future. As there is no great pressure for the scheme I do not see why we should worry about it at present. The only reason I mention it here is that smaller schemes have been held up and I have been told here in reply to Dáil questions they are held up until such time as the river Illen is drained under the Arterial Drainage Act.
As it is unlikely that a drainage scheme on the river Illen will be carried out within the next 20 years, I cannot understand why there should be a hold-up of minor drainage schemes in the area covered by that river and I hope the Department will now take a different view and also the county council who are now responsible for local improvement schemes. The council have hindered the making available of grants for small schemes on the river Illen in view of the previous stated policy of the Department of Finance when they were in charge of rural improvement schemes.
When I ask a question about the smaller schemes or about the change of policy in so far as the arterial drainage schemes are concerned let me not get the reply "Until the major schemes are carried out we would not advise the implementation of smaller ones." It could be said that this authority has passed from the Office of Public Works and Deputy Lemass, as Parliamentary Secretary, no longer deals with the smaller drainage schemes. At the same time, there are certain Departmental rules to which county councils are now adhering which to my mind they should not because of the changed circumstances. They should be free from any ties with the board when they have opted out of the smaller drainage schemes. The councils should, therefore, be in a position to act independently irrespective of what reports the Office of Public Works inspectors have made on those schemes.
Improvement of harbours and piers is a very important work in west Cork. We try to get as much money as we possibly can because of the exceptional length of the coastline in that area. We have several small fishing centres and tourist centres crying out for improved works and, naturally, the Office of Public Works carry out the works when approval is given by other Departments. They should have as much independence as possible in the selection of jobs. I am not conversant with what independence they have with regard to deciding on a particular work. Can they carry out anything on their own? Must they wait for Fisheries, Agriculture, Lands or any other Department to give them the green light to go ahead with any particular scheme? Can they make any move on their own or are their hands completely tied? Can they do nothing until some other Department order a job to be carried out?
The work carried out by the Board of Works in south-west Cork is well done. The workmanship is good and the people are satisfied with it. We have a few big schemes. The Castletownbere harbour scheme is nearing completion and we also have some minor schemes.
Deputy Tully referred to the wage rates obtaining on such schemes. He said it takes something in the region of six months to get a reply from the Office of Public Works on this question. The Parliamentary Secretary may recollect that I asked him about wage rates in the west Cork area where even non-skilled workers on some jobs were getting different rates of wages. The wage rates obtaining on some of the jobs were lower than the county council rates. That should not be. When a man is working on a big or a small scheme for the Office of Public Works, particularly if he is an unskilled worker, he is entitled to the same rate of wages as obtains elsewhere. If he is a skilled worker, and works on a major job, there could be a claim made for varying the rates. There could be a degree of flexibility in such cases but it certainly should not apply to non-skilled workers. I hope the Parliamentary Secretary will have a look at the wage rates obtaining in the various schemes and try to get some uniformity in areas where it does not exist at present.
Schools are another big question. I am well aware of the difficulty of meeting demands for improved school buildings and new schools. I agree that that type of work must be phased out. However, so far as west Cork is concerned, the demands are not that formidable. I believe, taking into account the amount voted under the heading of improved school buildings, which I understand is in the region of £3 million, our demand for new schools to be erected immediately at Barryroe central school, Ballinadee, near Bandon, Knockavilla, near Bandon and Rossmore is not too large. It is reasonable in size and cost and we should get our proportionate share for school buildings this year.
In south-west Cork, possibly more so than in other areas, a number of amalgamation schemes have been approved. Smaller schools are being closed down. Almost all the one-teacher schools are gone and a number of the two-teacher schools are also gone so the schools still standing are mainly three-teacher and four-teacher schools which need enlargement and improvement. It is unpleasant to hear of the insanitary condition of a number of those schools which in some cases are attended by more than 100 pupils. I know the managers have wide discretionary powers to provide proper sanitation in schools. If that is so, and if the board pay to do the job properly this position should not arise. However, if there is any person along the line who is lax in his duty, or who is not doing what he should be doing to provide proper sanitary facilities for schools, he should be told so and the Department should take over the work themselves. If the Board of Works are paying 100 per cent of the cost of the job, then when complaints are made about the insanitary state of a particular school, they should be examined and if the complaints are justified then let them carry out the work.
To sum up on our local problems for the benefit of the Parliamentary Secretary, we are anxious that our schemes for new schools would move ahead smoothly during the current year and that a number of recommendations for the improvement of school buildings which, as the Parliamentary Secretary knows, have been made, would get favourable consideration. Then there is the question of coast erosion about which we shall be seeing the Parliamentary Secretary in the not too distant future if he is agreeable to receive a deputation from the Cork County Council, and the question of improvements to small harbours.
It may seem I have taken up the time of the House unduly in dealing with small matters relating to west Cork which should not be mentioned in a debate of this kind. However, so far as public expenditure in Ireland is concerned some areas seem to get a larger share than others. I know circumstances may differ widely as between, say, the necessity of expending sums of money here in the Dublin area and isolated areas in the west of Ireland or in south-west Cork. We accept that but at the same time we in that district have a number of complaints against Departments, not so much against the Board of Works. We have particular complaints against the Department of Local Government and against other Departments which are not relevant to this Vote and which we shall deal with later. As a Deputy who represents the south-west Cork area and who would not be here without the confidence of the people, let me say that this is the general view of the people down there, that a little more attention should be given to the recommendations that are made from the area. Speaking for the south-west Cork area I can say that recommendations are not made lightly. We do not send along demands or recommendations for schemes unless it is the considered opinion that such schemes are justifiable.
Some of the previous speakers made a tour around Ireland, the Hill of Tara and various other places, asking what the Office of Public Works would do about them. I need only move from this House across the railings to the National Library to point out the necessity for improvements. The place seems to me to be completely congested and the reading room is exceptionally small in relation to its patronage. What are the regulations governing the use of the reading room? I understood that the National Library——
The Deputy will appreciate that the Board of Works are only agents so far as these buildings are concerned.
I know they are only agents but they have to do with the repair and layout of public buildings. If repairs were to be carried out to the National Library would the job not be handed over to the Board of Works for their recommendations? If that is not the position I shall leave the matter over, but surely improvements to our national buildings and recommendations for improvements and layout of public buildings would be the direct responsibility of the Board of Works. At least I understood that was the position.
We are just agents for the various Departments. We do not decide on policy, but we do decide the schemes.
It is the job of the Board of Works to draw up the plan for a public building or to carry out much-needed improvements. The building to which I refer is a very important one. I know the regulations within the building are not appropriate to this discussion and can be debated at another time under the appropriate Department, but have the Board of Works been asked to report on the National Library? Have they had representations to carry out any improvements?
We have been dealing with certain buildings, the Four Courts and the Custom House. The Library is one that is in the future. I do not know whether it will be dealt with next year or the year after.
I think it is one that should be attended to. However, I appreciate as the Parliamentary Secretary, Deputy Lemass, has said, they have only agency powers and must wait on the Department. The building of a school must go to the Department of Education, to and fro, to and fro, and must have their approval to go ahead. A job appropriate to Fisheries must also go to the Department concerned.
I wonder should this system be changed so that the Office of Public Works would be given more teeth in relation to public buildings, so that they would have the right to say whether a building should be repaired or not or whether a slip or a harbour should be improved. In this way the correspondence and discussions with other Departments would be vastly reduced. The normal excuse or reply we get from the Department is that: "We are having discussions with some other Department" or "We are awaiting sanction". I know it would be inappropriate for the Board of Works to have the function of determining a school should be built in a particular place. Naturally, it would be the Department's job to say where the school is needed. However, surely in regard to repairs to public buildings there should be more flexibility and full freedom for the Office of Public Works to operate. The alternative, of course, was also suggested, that the board should disappear and that each Department should work completely on its own. I would not be in favour of that idea. I think an Office of Public Works is warranted because the equipment and machinery which it has is available to be used by all Government Departments. Does the Board actually carry out work themselves or do they just farm out work to individuals? If the Board of Works farmed out all the work or did only a small proportion of it, there would be some justification for the suggested abolition of the Office of Public Works. It could be said that it would be just as easy for the technical advisers in the Department of Education to secure contractors to build a new school as it would be for the Office of Public Works.
I do not propose to detain the House much longer. The reason I intervened in this debate was because the people of west Cork are disappointed with their share of public funds. I hope the position will change in the future and that greater allocations of money from the Board of Works for west Cork will be made, if not during the current financial year, during the next financial year. We in west Cork are satisfied that in many instances public money is not divided fairly and that, due to political considerations or other considerations, some areas seem to get more attention than others. I have never been satisfied that everything is administered fairly and equitably in this country. Indeed, I know very well it is not, and areas suffer as a result. I know many State Departments do not carry out their duties or approach public matters impartially. Factors that should not influence decisions are taken into account and, in fact, do influence decisions. It is not unknown or unusual for a level-headed businessman, irrespective of his political feelings, to give money at least in excess of three figures, in order to become a member of a particular organisation in case he may need Government help in the future. I am sorry to have to conclude my speech with such a statement but this situation obtains. I think the system is rotten.
I should like to wish the Parliamentary Secretary and the Board of Works every success in the future. I agree with the remarks made by other Deputies that both the Parliamentary Secretary and the board are most approachable and helpful. I appreciate having as head of a Department a man with whom one can discuss things irrespective of one's political feelings, because that is more the exception than the rule in this country.
The Board of Works play an important part in the economy and in the life of rural Ireland. The board look after schools, piers, drainage, Garda barracks, Government offices and monuments. In spite of all the lip service paid to saving the Gaeltacht, Knock school, which is situated on one of the main roads in Connemara, is a monument to decadence. We in Connemara are ashamed of the school because of the appalling condition it is in. Since his Lordship the Bishop of Galway came to that city he has played no small part in furthering education in the area. Deputy Geoghegan, I am sure, can bear out what I have said about Knock school. It is no credit to us.
A new school has been started.
I am not talking about the new one. I have been on about that for years.
But the old school is being replaced.
The present one is no addition to us in the west.
We on this side of the House can be proud of the fact that we started and completed the Corrib scheme, which is one of the greatest schemes in the West of Ireland. There is a responsibility on those now in power not to spoil the ship for a ha'porth of tar. Drainage of the surrounding areas should continue. I have in mind Moycullen area, certain parts of the west and especially the Loughwell river. The Loughwell river has been drained but that is not sufficient unless the drains going into the river are cleared as well. This could play an important part in clearing and developing bogland and making land usable.
I should also like to say that on the eastern bank of the Corrib, the Scylon-Headfort area, Clune and Claregalway areas are areas where there is great need for drainage. This would open up a lot of virgin bog and could play an important part in the economy of the people if this work was carried out.
Piers and slips represent the lifeline and livelihood of some of the people in the west. Eighteen months ago a famous document was circulated around Connemara before an election and from this it appeared that all the people had to do was to mark their ballot papers on the following day one and two for Fianna Fáil and overnight hundreds of thousands of pounds would be made available for the Rossaviel pier. I am not accusing the Parliamentary Secretary of having circulated it.
The Deputy had better not.
But he knows who did circulate it.
I do not.
The Parliamentary Secretary is being charitable now. It was an attempt to make an inroad into his area. According to that document if you voted for Fianna Fáil there would be hundreds of thousands of pounds for Rossaviel pier. It was like the Shannon scheme. We read in the Sunday papers about £20 million for the drainage of the Shannon, but the Government have not taken as much water from the Shannon banks as would go on one's forehead when one leaves the church on Sunday morning. The same applies to Rossaviel pier: it has not been improved one iota. That document is enshrined in this House. I asked a question in the past few days about it and was told that for a scheme of this size preliminary surveys and so on would take a long time but design work was proceeding as rapidly as possible. According to the document that was circulated the scheme was ready to proceed the following day.
It is about time that a realistic look was taken at Inishere and Inishmaan so as to ensure that the lifeboat could reach these islands in very rough weather. The islanders are dependent on the helicopter to save life in the event of an emergency. Great work has been done and we are all greatful for the services provided. In rough weather, when a boat cannot get in, the people are left to the mercy of the elements. If we cannot provide a safe form of transport it is about time we told the people to move out, that the islands are only for summer residence. These people must live there all the year round and it is not fair that they should have to tolerate the present conditions in this age.
The fishing industry and the seaweed industry, which the people rely on for a livelihood, depend on the slips. Seaweed is playing on important role in the west thanks to the industry started by Deputy Mongan in his time. Unless people can bring in seaweed safely the industry will suffer. I suggest that the Board of Works should consider a crash programme for the improvement of these slips. There is a good deal of dynamite in the country that could be put to better use in blowing out rocks that are blocking inlets. The dynamite used in this way would benefit the country more than does some of the work for which it is being used. I do not suppose the Board of Works would object if it was used to blast some of the rocks out of the way and allow boats safe passage.
The Board of Works should be empowered to enter areas where flooding has been caused by blocking or by laziness or by a begrudging person who will not allow a drain through his land. He does not care a hoot if by blocking the drain on his own land he is flooding his neighbour's land further on. The board should be empowered to go in and do the work and, if necessary, charge the cost to the persons involved. It would not be a big effort considering the important contribution it would make to the economy of people where land is poor and scarce.
All over the country Government offices are being rented at a cost, I estimate, of millions of pounds. It is time we began to think of building our own offices. The longer it is postponed the more costly it will be. The Government are occupying office space that could be used by others. Also we should not allow ourselves to be held up to ransom by some of the major landlords, particularly in Dublin.
Reference has been made to the insanitary condition of schools but the same can be said about Garda barracks which are damp and unhealthy. In some cases when a garda hangs up his waterproof coat he will have green mould, or faoineach liath as we say, on the shoulders of it if he leaves it there for a few months. It is time this matter was considered with a view to improving heating and sanitation.
We have in Galway an ancient monument known as the Lynch memorial, recalling that a mayor there once hanged his son. If he came back now he could hang a few more. The Lynch memorial is a very important monument in our city. Tourists are very interested in it. There is now a move on foot to produce a pseudo-Lynch memorial, and the part of ancient Galway in which it stands, down at Shannon. We are not responsible, of course, for what film people do, but they may look for a grant from the Office of Public Works to build their replica down at Shannon. If anyone wants to see this memorial they can see the real thing in Galway and we will welcome them in Galway and let no one try to cash in on our background.
I appeal to the Parliamentary Secretary to complete the drainage work and finish a job well begun. For the sake of a penn'orth of tar do not spoil the ship. There is, too, the fishery harbour in Galway. This matter comes up every year. It was a major fishery harbour. I should like to know what has happened about it. Has it been shelved? Is it waiting for another allocation? Are we to take this document down and wave it around— another £10 million if the people vote Fianna Fáil? We will not blame the Parliamentary Secretary for the famous document that was circulated in Connemara; that is the one we will wave in their faces for the short time they will be over there.
The greatest problem in my county is drainage. We have the Moy, the Corrib, the Rogue and the Lung. I compliment the Board of Works on the wonderful job they have done on the Moy. There are, however, 800 other jobs which have not been included in the Moy drainage scheme and hundreds of acres in Mayo will never have a chance of being drained. Remembering that the Moy scheme will finish next year I appeal to the Parliamentary Secretary to include the 800 extra jobs in the scheme before it finishes.
I believe a great deal of money could be saved on the Moy scheme. Where rivers divide holdings the farmers themselves should be allocated the money necessary to provide the essential links. Had this been considered with the Moy drainage scheme the 800 extra jobs would have been done. These bridges provide employment and, when the scheme finishes, unemployment in the area will be very high. Indeed, a number of young men have already gone to England. Would it not be better to employ these on essential drainage works?
In the Corrib-Rogue-Mask scheme there has been considerable flooding in the Hollymount-Claremorris-Ballyhaunis area. I had a question down last week about this but the reply was not very favourable; it was not likely it would be tackled in 1971. Outside of arterial drainage there are other major drainage works that could not be included and there is no money allocated for such works. I would appeal to the Parliamentary Secretary to make money available under the local improvements schemes for this work so that these people, who will never have a chance of having the benefit of main arterial drainage, can get the benefit of some drainage work.
Local authorities have to give certain guarantees to provide a certain amount of money in the rates where arterial drainage is concerned. I disagree with this system. In Mayo the rate is £5 16s in the £ and the rate in Galway is just as high. How much in the £ will have to be levied as a result of this drainage work? This should be a national charge financed by the Exchequer. That would alleviate some of the burden of rates. It is dishonest to ask those who do not benefit to contribute.
Reference has been made to schools, barracks and county council offices. I know it is not easy to do everything in the one year but years ago application was made for county council offices in Castlebar. There has been no progress. That problem should have been tackled ten years ago. If it is not tackled now it will be much more acute in ten years time and the cost will be practically doubled.
I do not want to interrupt the Deputy, but it is a matter for the Department of Local Government.
Yes, but the money must be got from the Office of Public Works. Is that not correct?
No.
Deputy Finn will appreciate that the Office of Public Works act as agents for the other Departments. Until they get sanction to build these offices the office of Public Works can do nothing about the matter.
Is it not a fact that when the Department of Education recommend a project to the Office of Public Works, the latter provide the money and do the work? Do the Office of Public Works not provide money for schools?
Yes.
Do they not provide money for Garda stations, slips and piers
Not always.
The point is that the Office of Public Works do not take the initiative in proceeding with these schemes. They must await instructions from the Department concerned.
It is the duty of the Department of Education, where necessary, to recommend to the Office of Public Works that schools be provided. There are schools in my constituency that are rat-infested. There have been strikes in many of these schools and they will continue if something is not done about the deplorable conditions. I am not saying it is the fault of the Office of Public Works; possibly the blame lies with the Department of Education and the managers of the schools concerned.
I must compliment the Office of Public Works on the work they have carried out to the Garda station at Newport. The station at Hollymount is in a very bad state and perhaps the Parliamentary Secretary would look into this matter. Some of the Garda stations throughout the country are like barns. It is dishonest not to provide proper accommodation for the gardaí and I appeal to the Parliamentary Secretary to do something about this matter. I would also ask the Parliamentary Secretary to make an effort to have the cost of drainage made a national charge.
During this debate Deputies avail of the opportunity of putting their views before the Minister and the Parliamentary Secretary. One cannot deny that an enormous amount of useful work is being done throughout the country. Old schools are being closed and fine buildings are being erected and in this regard we must compliment the Parliamentary Secretary. It is more healthy for teachers and pupils to work in the new buildings and must make the task of teaching children easier. While progress has been made many problems still remain and these are frequently brought to our notice by the people concerned.
In Sligo and Leitrim quite a number of school extension works have been sanctioned. I appeal to the Parliamentary Secretary to ensure that there is no undue delay because all these projects are essential. We frequently hear that plans are being prepared for the erection of hotels to cater for tourists. We must remember that tourists do not remain very long in this country and these projects should not be given priority. While I admit that the provision of pre-fabricated buildings for schools may suffice for a short time, and quite often it is desirable that they be provided, they are not a substitute for the permanent buildings that must be erected at a later date.
As public representatives we frequently have occasion to visit Garda stations. Many of these buildings are cold; they have flagged floors and narrow stairways and in many cases they are the buildings that were used as temporary stations at the formation of the State. The Office of Public Works must tackle this problem. The gardaí have a tough job and they should be provided with adequate accommodation. I know that when gardaí are transferred they have great difficulty in securing suitable accommodation.
The provision of housing for the gardaí is a matter for the Department of Justice.
I thought it was a matter for the Office of Public Works.
I agree that the Office of Public Works erect the houses on the instructions of the Department but that is their only function.
I have now brought the matter to the notice of the Parliamentary Secretary and shall say no more. In Sligo there is a lot of Government property, such as customs and excise offices and Land Project offices, but there is a scarcity of office accommodation and something should be done about this. The county committee of agriculture recently have been given very good office accommodation and I should like to see more accommodation of this type made available. It is not healthy for officials to work in cramped conditions, surrounded by books and ledgers. We find the same position where Land Commission offices are concerned. They are not comfortable and fresh and compare badly with new buildings. There are stone stairs in some of them. These are links with the past and the sooner we get away from them the better.
I should like to take this opportunity of speaking on drainage. There has been a great amount of activity throughout my constituency as a result of the freak storm of the 5th August when all the rivers which we have been asking to have drained for years burst their banks and caused an untold amount of damage. The Shannon burst its banks at Dowra and in the Ballinaglena areas and the total damage there can never be estimated. Many people had all their hay destroyed. The hay had been saved but the flood took all of it. We had public meetings which were attended by all the local representatives. A strong case was made and a message was sent to the Taoiseach and to the Office of Public Works. There were meetings at Doura, Dromahair and in the Manorhamilton area. The matter was put before the county council. Deputations were sent to the council to see what could be done and further messages were sent to Dublin about the damage done.
The only offer made was one of a maximum of a loan of £300 free of interest which could be given to those who suffered severe damage. The amount of the loan given would depend on the amount of damage done. It is not helpful to give money to people who are just able to keep going. This would not appeal to those people. The average small farmer does not want to borrow money even if it is free of interest. If such a man had trouble with livestock or had illness in the home he might have great difficulty in paying back this money. It was agreed that the terms offered were reasonable, but the people had asked for compensation instead of a loan. The case was made for compensation and this loan was offered. The people will not avail of this offer. Perhaps a few, those who will be well able to pay it back when the time comes, will borrow the money. At every meeting I attended a claim was made for compensation. This question should be re-examined. The unfortunate people should have compensation for the damage done. It is a serious matter for a farmer to have 70, 80 or 100 cocks of hay swept down the river after all his hard work. Many small farmers depend on their hay.
Ten or 14 years ago I spoke about the drainage of the Bonet river and we have been told on many occasions that this drainage scheme will be carried out. Occasionally, a few men come along and work on the banks of the river in order to convey to the people that something is being done. No extensive work was done and damage, similar to what I have described after the freak storm of the 5th August on the Shannon, has been done by the Bonet river which stretches from Kinlogh through the parish of Mullies to Manorhamilton and Dromahair. That part of the country is almost a lake.
The damage would have been very much less if the Department had tackled the scheme. It is listed as an arterial drainage scheme. When I got in touch with the Office of Public Works they told me they were preparing a scheme which would come into operation in, perhaps, 18 months or two years. I appeal to them to speed up this scheme. No drainage has been done on this river which is in low-lying country with very little flow in the water except on an occasional short stretch. There are bushes and blocks of timber thrown into the water. No one will cut a tree or take anything away which falls into the river. The county council claim they have no responsibility and the Office of Public Works will not come down to such a small river. A small tree thrown into a river like this can cause untold damage. It can hold up the flow of water. There are 40 smaller rivers depending on this river for drainage. If the people apply for a grant they will be told they cannot have a grant for such a scheme, because there is no proper flow into Lough Gill and other people would therefore be flooded, resulting, perhaps, in law cases.
Small rivers can cause untold damage because the bigger rivers are not cleaned. If the Bonet river were cleaned it would relieve the flooding in many low-lying areas which are flooded by smaller rivers. Some years ago we asked to have the river at Glencar cleaned. This river is very good for fishing. We were told it could not be cleaned because the fishery conservators had control over it and it would be breaking the law if the Office of Public Works moved in to have the rocks and obstructions blasted out of the river.
The Office of Public Works should come to the rescue of our small farmers who are tormented by flooding. If obstructions in the river are a cause of it, then they should be blasted and removed so as to allow the natural flow to take place. Livestock have been swept away in floodings and it is indeed fortunate that people were not lost also. Bear in mind that people are not now willing to settle down and live on a holding where there is no security for their livestock or the farm produce. That is why drainage is so important.
Another problem concerns the individual who will hold up a local improvement scheme simply because he has a right of way and can do his work. About six months ago, two or three farmers came to my house one morning to draw attention to the very serious flooding of some good farms; drainage was held up because one person who had the right to cross a bridge in this flooded area, objected to the carrying out of the scheme. The man in question had plenty to gain—certainly he had nothing to lose—but he objected and many acres were thereby ruined. It should be the law that, when the Office of Public Works decide an application has merit, the scheme will be proceeded with and authority should be given to five, six or seven local farmers to proceed with it. It is not good enough that one person can hold up a necessary scheme. Sometimes, the objector is not working on the land, has no interest in the land and is perhaps working away at some other job but still he holds up a scheme of this kind. There are people who have bad roadways going to their homes as a result of this type of action by an objector, not to mention the untold damage and worry caused by flooding. Furthermore, objection can be made to the construction of buildings. This type of tactic by isolated individuals should be looked into.
In the Sligo-Leitrim area—particularly in Sligo—there is a very long stretch of coastline. We receive quite a number of complaints about coast erosion. An enormous amount of damage was done in Strandhill where the foundations of some houses in that holiday resort have almost been undermined as a result of coast erosion. The same can be said in relation to the Screen area.
Coast erosion comes under the Department of Local Government. It would be a matter for the county council.
Let me turn, instead, to the question of roads in which nobody is very much interested—mountain roads and roads that certainly would not get a grant from anybody. In other words, everybody's business would be nobody's business. Something will have to be done in the near future about such roads or else they will become impassable. When money is being allocated towards rural improvement schemes next year I trust that the sum will be increased in respect of my constituency. It would be a great boon if all the schemes that are listed, for which there are 600 applications, could be carried out without any great delay.
The trouble, I fear, is lack of money; otherwise there is no reason why these schemes should not be well in hand, if not completed, between now and the end of the year. Such schemes are very useful from the point of view of the drainage of small rivers, the relief of flooding and the repair of laneways and roads. Furthermore, they give employment, which is a very important factor in an area where there is a number of small holdings.
I shall be brief on this very important debate on the Estimate for the Office of Public Works. I make no apology for dealing to a great extent with the constituency I represent, the constituency of Dún Laoghaire-Rathdown. Some Deputies may criticise me for what they may please to term my parochial approach in this context, but I should like to remind the House that anything I have to say relates in the main to amenities and so on, matters that concern human beings.
I shall start with what I consider to be one of the great achievements of our time, the growth of our fishing fleet at Dún Laoghaire. The Ceann Comhairle may ask what this has got to do with the Estimate and my reply is that it has got an awful lot to do with it. The Board of Works have been very good to the fishermen at Dún Laoghaire in terms of the provision of facilities. They have done a lot to keep the Coal Quay clear, from which the Dún Laoghaire fishing fleet operate. However, a lot remains to be done and there are a number of matters to be brought to the attention of the Parliamentary Secretary.
The flashing beacon at the end of Coal Quay pier is one such matter. It has been giving considerable trouble. It acts as a guide to fishermen coming in on high seas at night. Another matter which I brought to the attention of the House but which still remains, possibly as a monument to other days, relates to the toilet facilities at the bottom of Coal Quay pier. Privately, I have described them in many ways and I have said here that they are an affront, if that is a suitable term, to hygiene. They are deplorable and, in the interests of the fishermen and of the general community, the Parliamentary Secretary should direct his staff, as a matter of urgency, to do something about them. It is most important because my information is that those toilets were erected in the middle of the last century and have not been touched since. It is not just a matter of a coat of paint but of getting rid of the existing so-called facilities there and of replacing them with up-to-date, modern conveniences, with hand-basins, towels and so on.
I should like to thank the Board of Works for the manner in which they have met many of the requests from me and from the other Fianna Fáil councillors in Dún Laoghaire in connection with the needs of the fishermen. They have been most helpful and I should like to take this opportunity to thank them. I do not know what the lads over there are laughing at. If I sound a bit light I can assure them I do not feel it. I hope we will continue to get this co-operation from the Board of Works. One other matter in relation to Dún Laoghaire concerns the operatives, painters and so on, employed by the Board of Works there. It concerns a pay claim which has been held up for a considerable time, and I now ask the Parliamentary Secretary to have the matter examined.
Would that be the 13th round?
It is a pay claim which has been outstanding. I think it was an agreed claim and it has been outstanding for months.
Is it the 12th round?
It is like the problem the Deputy dealt with earlier. I will deal with it.
The Phoenix Park has been very much in the news recently and as one who has been advocating the need for a golf course and other amenities in the park I was very glad to read in the press the Parliamentary Secretary's announcement in this connection. There are proposals before him to have a golf course not in the park proper but in an area known as the Park Extension, between John's Road in Kilmainham and Chapelizod.
Is that the old dump?
Yes. It is on the south side of the Liffey. I think the location will meet with general approval as will the proposal to provide this amenity. There are 1,760 acres in the Phoenix Park itself but that land is not to be touched. The 200 or 300 acre site is an addition to the existing acreage in the park. When the Parliamentary Secretary comes to consider these proposals, the usage of this area, I hope he will be tempted to consider the provision of amenities other than the golf course. I welcome his statement on this matter and he deserves credit for it. Again, it is the question of the availability of land, but I hope this area will be used to provide possibly a swimming pool, tennis courts and related amenities.
I have been told that there is a crazy idea to bring people across the city to this new extension in buses free of charge at off peak periods to ensure that all the people of Dublin will have an opportunity of enjoying the amenities there. I know the Parliamentary Secretary will consider this and that he will also consider my suggestion that the area should be used to provide not only a golf course but the other amenities I mentioned.
Of course this should not be an exclusively Dublin operation. Naturally, the people of Dublin city and county will be the greatest users of it but I hope it will also be used by our friends in the country.
The question arises of the charge to a person who plays a round of golf and the newspapers have been speculating that it should be 10s. I am afraid that is too much for the people I can see using the course. I envisage it being called the Municipal Golf Course, open to the less well off members of the community, and I suggest that most people who would like to use it will not be able to afford 10s for a round of golf. Therefore. I hope the figure of 10s is incorrect—that the Parliamentary Secretary has not made any decision as to the proposed charge per round.
I have said that the Phoenix Park comprises 1,760 acres. Of that, about 1,100 acres are available to the community, the balance being made up of Árus an Uachtaráin, the Zoo, the Papal Nunciature, the American Embassy and so on. It is only right and proper that Árus an Uachtaráin, the Apostolic Nunciature, the American Embassy and other embassies should be situated in such a beautiful location. The Phoenix Park is really a very beautiful park and that is to the credit of the Office of Public Works. I may sound a little obsequious but I do not mean to be. I do not throw out praise in an offhand fashion but if praise is due it is due and the Office of Public Works maintain the Phoenix Park properly and in good fashion, and all credit to them.
Another thing about the Phoenix Park which I find very impressive relates to its cleanliness and the way the community in the city and county of Dublin, and the other people who use it, maintain it in a decent condition. Very few papers are thrown around and there is very little debris, as I see it anyway, passing regularly through the park as I do and making use of the park for myself and my children. I do this very often. One can go for quite long and pleasant walks in various areas throughout the park. I am just mentioning the singular lack of debris left by citizens who use the amenities of the park. Thank God for that.
It is a pity that we have not got this cleanliness in a general way all over the city. It is a pity we do not keep our streets a little cleaner. This has nothing to do with this Estimate. We are coming towards the end of Conservation Year. I am not quite sure who actually is in complete control of conservation in our country. I do not think it has been finally decided what Department or what Minister is in charge of it. I hope the Office of Public Works will take an active interest in this question of conservation, as I know they do to a great degree.
Hear, hear.
My brother, Councillor Niall Andrews, proposed that there should be a national park in addition to the Phoenix Park and in addition to all the other open areas and open spaces which will be so badly needed in this community of ours in the years ahead. Martin Luther King said he had a dream. I have a dream and it is in relation to open spaces in this city which will be as valuable as gold. I describe them as the lungs of the people. We must now cherish as many open spaces as we can for the future and this is the time to do it.
Does the Parliamentary Secretary ever dream about anything else?
Indeed I do, good dreams, bad dreams. It is just a dream, as the fellow said.
No nightmares?
Perhaps it will become a reality and if I have my way this dream will become a reality. They say that sometimes dreams come true. I think that is a song. The Deputy might be better at singing than I am. I believe this national park concept will become a reality. It has already been discussed at some length and it has been given considerable coverage by the various newspapers. This is right and proper.
In this area set aside as an amenity area one can see the opening of State forests, the provision of walks, and so on. We already have quite a number of well-laid out tracks and walking areas across the Wicklow Mountains and the Dublin Mountains. This is a good idea. The concept is that there will be a preservation order in relation to a given part of the mountainside and that building and so on will be prevented. It is not just to prevent building but to ensure that building does not affect the amenities of the area; to ensure that it does not intrude on views or block pathways or access paths, and that we have proper roadways for cars and areas where cars can park and people can take in the view at their ease. These are things which I consider to be of vital necessity for the future. With the growth of leisure—we hear a lot about computerisation but I think computers do not put people out of work, they create employment for people; that is just a point of view— and with working hours becoming shorter, there will be a demand for this type of national amenity.
It is not right that people should sit at home if they have a few hours to spare. It is their entitlement by the way. I do not suggest that they should not do it. They can do what they darn well like as far as I am concerned. I do not think they should sit at home and look at television if they have a few hours to spare. It is important for the future of the nation that they do not just sit looking at television but that they get out and about with their families. As I say, a healthy nation is a wealthy nation. I encourage my own children to go out and about and walk. It is good for them. It is good for the mental and physical make-up. This is what leisure is all about. Walking, mountain climbing and orienteering do quite a lot for the physical as well as the mental make-up and are also of benefit to the nation.
I would ask the Parliamentary Secretary to deal with the question of the overall charge of conservation. It will have to be centralised. There is no question about that. Who will take it over is another matter. I am not familiar with the inner machinery or the inner mechanics of the background there, but we should centralise conservation and put it in the hands of one person, be it a Minister or a Minister's Parliamentary Secretary. Definitely it should be set aside because it is far too important a matter to be bandied about between the parties.
We have a lot to offer in terms of conservation but we already hear of rivers being polluted. The Camac is one and the Dodder is another. Something is being done about the Dodder at the moment. As regards the Liffey, those of us who pass through the centre of our city in the middle of the summer are appalled at the stench that comes from Anna Livia Plurabelle, as Joyce said. If he were to come back he would not describe it as "Plurabelle" anymore.
There is a definite stink from the Liffey, to be pretty crude about it. That may be unparliamentary language. Forgive me for it, a Leas-Cheann Comhairle, but if it describes what actually exists it is a fair enough description. A stench such as the one we get from the Liffey is a pollutant. It offends the senses and, therefore, conservation is being put aside. The sooner something is done about that the better. Apart from the general malodour, from the point of view of tourists, the problem of the stench from the Liffey should be looked at immediately by the people or person in charge of conservation, as a matter of some considerable urgency. This is the sort of situation that will continue. The pollution of Dublin Bay is well known. Let us not prevaricate any more about that. I swim in the Forty Foot from time to time and take the children down to Sandycove and it is pretty bad. This situation has been brought about because we have not taken firm action. We have not got the question of conservation centralised and if we do not do that pollution will continue apace. Let Government Departments decide, as a matter of urgency, who is to take control of this matter because if they do not I foresee a situation arising in which there will be many more areas of pollution, apart from rivers and so on.
I do not know whether the matter of fumes from exhaust pipes relates to the Office of Public Works. These also are pollutant. It is a matter that should be examined by a central agency in charge of conservation. This is not being done at the moment because nobody knows where the final responsibility lies or at whose doorstep to lay the blame. This is the type of comprehensive plan which is emanating from the Board of Works with the building of this golf course—a comprehensive recreational plan for the city and county of Dublin. Now is the time to do it. The Parliamentary Secretary has made an excellent beginning with his proposed golf course. In addition to the golf course there are many other things we want in that amenity area. Any expense arising from the upkeep of this 200 acre site known as the Phoenix Park extension, any entrance fee—it is reasonable to expect there may be an entrance fee —should be kept at the very minimum. The people who are getting the amenities should pay a small charge for the betterment and the upkeep of the amenities. I do not think there would be any objection to that but I do not want it to become exclusive.
I want all sections of the community to have these areas available to them, particularly the Phoenix Park extension, including the least well-off. These are people in whom I am particularly interested in this context. I do not want this to be a playground for the rich. Those of us who have a few shillings extra can go to our golf clubs and pay whatever fees are paid in golf clubs. I am not very familiar with this because I do not play golf. That is not to say that I am critical of anyone who does. Golf is a splendid game—perhaps I have not got the time for it—and a game anyone should encourage. The least well-off are the people for whom I want this area to be available and they should not be excluded. If it means doing away with the charge altogether to encourage them to come, then do away with the charge. Let us make it a social service, part of the social security service. What the Parliamentary Secretary is doing relates to the social security structure in a way.
The job the Board of Works did on the car ferry is very good. The car ferry terminal is excellent, recognised to be one of the best in Europe and, indeed, one of the best operated in Europe too. There is still a little of the temporary car ferry there. The buildings themselves have been removed from the east pier but there is a sort of physical outcrop from the original east pier and I wonder whether the Parliamentary Secretary in his reply would tell me whether the pier itself will revert to its original appearance. At the moment it is just a little ugly. That is just a small point. I am not irritated and I hope I am not irritating the Parliamentary Secretary by asking him to deal with it. He certainly dealt as promised with the temporary car ferry. He took down the buildings very quickly and we certainly appreciate that.
May I ask the Parliamentary Secretary then to take special note of the fishermen and their requirements in relation to his Department—the question of the Coal Quay, the fishermen's walk as we now call it? The Dún Laoghaire fishing fleet has grown from two or three boats six or seven years ago to 16 or 17 high-powered, first-class fishing vessels. The credit in the main is due to the initiative of those who formed the Dún Laoghaire Fishermen's Co-operative and built up this magnificent fleet, a fleet manned in the main by young people in the age group 22 or 23 to 40. To give these people the encouragement they deserve, to give them credit for their own initiative, we must recognise the need for proper facilities in Dún Laoghaire. The Board of Works have been most co-operative to date and I hope the Parliamentary Secretary will take a look at my observations in relation to these other matters—proper toilet facilities and continuity of the lighting. The Parliamentary Secretary's officials might have another look at the surface of the Coal Quay and, possibly there could be better facilities for lifting fish. We have of course, coming there shortly an ice plant, a filleting station, to be situated on land given to us by the Department of Defence.
Finally, may I thank the Parliamentary Secretary for listening to me and congratulate him on all the work he has been doing since he was appointed? During his holidays he took upon himself the task of visiting many areas in the country on his own initiative. This is what is known as active participation. He is not a man who sits in his office and issues instructions. He is a man who gets up, goes about and looks at the various problems. Indeed, when I approached him about a historic monument in my constituency he came out very readily and for that I thank him.
As I see this Estimate, there is about £10 million to be spent. There would need to be £50 million to satisfy the needs of the few Deputies to whom I have listened in the last hour or so. I shall be strictly parochial. There should be a much bigger allocation for arterial drainage. The Parliamentary Secretary is well aware that I have questions down week in week out on this subject and in my opinion he is not positive enough in his replies to me. I would go so far as to suggest that when other Deputies, perhaps, not from my party, put down questions on similar matters the answer they get seems to indicate a willingness on the part of the Parliamentary Secretary to undertake a certain kind of work. Last week I had a question down about a tributary of the Suck. I asked the Parliamentary Secretary what the chances were of having it drained. I asked a few supplementaries without getting any satisfaction. Then another Deputy asked what was the position about the drainage of the Suck. He was told: "Yes, that is being completed." It was left at that which would indicate that it was the intention of the Board of Works to do something about it.
The Arterial Drainage Act was brought in about 1945 and since then, due to a number of different Parliamentary Secretaries, who looked after their own areas, there was not a great lot of work done as far as arterial drainage was concerned. The Suck affects a large part of my area but when I ask a question about it I am usually told: "The Shannon comes first. We cannot drain the Suck until the Shannon has been drained." We never have the finance or the necessary knowhow to do that although I believe there are other reasons as well. It is time to get down to this job and to let people know what drainage schemes will be carried out over the next 20 years. If people approach the Parliamentary Secretary and ask him when will such a thing be done in regard to arterial drainage they are given a ray of hope that it may be done something in the future but when is not specified.
There is a lot of land in the Suck catchment area and there are a lot of small farmers who depend solely on what they can earn on the land. It is a false type of Government policy which will give those people a ray of hope that the work may be done some time in the future. They would be better off being told when exactly it is intended to do the work. I realise in the earlier years of arterial drainage, when it was something new in this country, the staff employed did not know as much about it as they do now. Nowadays they can estimate better how long it will take them to do a certain job. I would like the Parliamentary Secretary to forget about the priority, forget what number it is, but say when the work will be done.
It is No. 8.
When does the Parliamentary Secretary expect that to be done?
Surely the Deputy does not expect me to solve in 18 months what has not been solved in 18 years?
We have many examples in Galway of what predecessors of the Parliamentary Secretary did regarding drainage schemes prior to general elections and we have many examples of their inactivity in relation to drainage in that area. The Parliamentary Secretary should tell us exactly when those various schemes will be proceeded with so that we will know when exactly they will commence.
There is also the Dunkellin drainage scheme in my area and the same problem applies here as to the Suck, although it is a much smaller scheme. We have not the problem of the Shannon here as it runs directly into the sea. Again, this has been put on the long finger. Would the Parliamentary Secretary let me know when work will start on this scheme? I have had many Parliamentary questions down about this and I also see one on the Order Paper today.
The Parliamentary Secretary to the Taoiseach, Deputy Andrews, complimented the Parliamentary Secretary on his national outlook. If he takes those compliments with a bow he should forget the political aspect of it and let us know exactly when the Office of Public Works can start work on the Dunkellin drainage scheme and, how long it will take them to do the job.
I hope to give that information but the Suck is another day's work.
As I indicated at the start I do not think enough money is being spent on drainage. In fact the allocation for arterial drainage has not increased at all in recent years. When you take the higher cost of labour and materials into account you must admit that arterial draining is being neglected. The amount of money given for this work today will not do the same amount it die ten years ago. Year by year less and less is being spent on this work.
I have two other problems with regard to drainage in my area. One is the completion of a drain in the Headford drainage scheme, which is tied up with the Headford water works. As far as I know the Board of Works are willing to carry out this work but there are difficulties with Galway County Council. I intend to raise this matter shortly with the county council but in the meantime the Board of Works or the Parliamentary Secretary should contact that local authority and tell them they want to carry out this drainage scheme. If the county council do not do the work which they are supposed to do the drainage cannot be done. They should urge the county council to carry out this work so that the Board of Works can complete the drainage of this river.
I also want to refer to the River Nanny in Tuam. Work on this is going so slowly that I am afraid I will be an old age pensioner before I see it done. This is connected with the Tuam waterworks, and if the Board of Works kept working upstream as they have been—it is quite a long time since they stopped, although I cannot say the exact date—they would interfere with the Tuam waterworks. The people in Lavalley and Ballaghalode areas, which the drainage of the river affects, cannot have their land drained because the Board of Works do not want to get into conflict again with the Galway County Council regarding the Tuam water supply. This has been going on for a very long time and I should like the Parliamentary Secretary, when he is replying, to give a detailed account of it as far as the Board of Works are concerned. I am sure he could pressurise the local authority to carry out the necessary works so that this river can be drained.
There is no allocation by the Board of Works for works which were done under the Local Authorities (Works) Act or under minor employment or bog development schemes. Up to a very short time ago all these schemes were operated by the Board of Works and in recent times they came under the auspices of the Department of Local Government and are administered in each county itself. They are only contributory schemes except in the privileged Gaeltacht areas where the valuations are low—in Connemara anyway as far as my county is concerned—that the schemes are free. In most of the rest of Galway and particularly in the part of the county I represent a large contribution is sought. I am not finding fault with these schemes; they are not bad, but there are many other roads and a great deal of other drainage work in the area which, prior to the Board of Works handing them over to the Department of Local Government, were done by the Board of Works. The Board of Works used to put a bit of sand on the bog roads and keep them in good condition. There is nothing being done in this line now.
I know the Parliamentary Secretary is not very familiar with the situation. He was down in the area dealing with local problems. He might mention if he has dealt with any of these matters in the meantime. I would urge the Parliamentary Secretary to make an allocation towards this type of work. These minor employment and bog development schemes were fairly good schemes and were very necessary in many parts of Galway and, I am sure, in the rest of the country as well. Since they are no longer in operation other problems have been created whereby many people who used to be employed on these schemes in one capacity or another are now being cared for by the Government, let us say, in a very different manner. It would be much better if these schemes were still in operation and I would urge the Parliamentary Secretary to look into the question of allocating a certain amount of money.
The Office of Public Works could not make such an allocation.
I know the Board of Works handed these schemes over to the Department of Local Government but if the Parliamentary Secretary consulted other Ministers or Parliamentary Secretaries they would see the need for an allocation to do this type of work.
The condition of some of the Garda stations in the area I represent leaves much to be desired. I do not know much about many of them but there is one to which I should like to refer specifically. It is in the worst possible condition and there is a little storm blowing through it all the time. I was in there late one night and the officer in question had a little bed fixed up for himself. The Garda Síochána must be a very healthy body because the draught and the cold in this station were such that a normal person could not last more than a very short time in it. There is need for the renovation of many Garda stations, particularly in Galway, with a view to making them more comfortable places in which to work.
I should like to refer to the heating system in this House. As one who is accustomed to an outdoor life and not accustomed to central heating of any kind—although I would know the difference between good and bad central heating—I would say that whatever type of heating we have in this House, is part of the reason why the death rate is so high. We have the third floor to ourselves and the heating in it is so fierce that one seems to become dehydrated. This is an indictment of those who carried out this work. I do not know exactly what the cost was but I am sure it was substantial. I do not think it is fair to ask Deputies or Senators to work under these conditions, which must be injurious to health. There is no reason why the central heating should not be improved and I would ask the Parliamentary Secretary to look into this matter.
I hope when he is replying the Parliamentary Secretary will answer my questions, not like a previous occasion when I raised certain matters but because he is Dublin orientated he dealt with ancient monuments and buildings around Dublin and made no reference to the West of Ireland or drainage in that part of the country.
I had only 45 minutes.
I do not mind how long the Parliamentary Secretary had, he should give a fair amount of time——
If I can get in now I shall give the Deputy four hours.
——to dealing with the problems I have raised here which may not be important to some people but which are very important to me and the people I represent.
Because of the unusual length of this debate the Parliamentary Secretary has many important points to reply to. I hope when he is replying he will deal with the points raised by all Deputies.
If the debate goes on much longer I shall be confined to 30 minutes.
There is plenty of time next week. It was only while listening to this debate that I was prompted to intervene. I am surprised and amazed at the number of complaints made and tributes that have been paid to the Board of Works and the Parliamentary Secretary. I am disappointed to have to say that I cannot join in with those tributes. The Parliamentary Secretary is probably full of good intentions but I have not seen them implemented in the area I represent.
I do not like to be parochial in a debate such as this, which is of immense national importance, but other speakers have referred to the work done in their own constituencies and from hearing what work is being carried out in other constituencies I have decided that my constituency and my county must be unique. I have not seen much work done or much money spent on my constituency since I became a public representative. I became a member of Cork County Council in 1964 and at that time the agenda was full of notices of motions in connection with drainage, the improvement of harbours, piers, et cetera. There is a volume of work awaiting the Parliamentary Secretary. During the past six years we have had deputation after deputation to the county council in connection with the drainage and the cleaning of rivers in the area. If the Parliamentary Secretary does not believe what I am saying I suggest he draws a line from Rathmore right across to Blarney and find out how much money has been spent in the southern part of the county during the past ten years. When the Parliamentary Secretary gives me that information I shall withdraw the allegations I have made. I have not seen any evidence of money spent on the cleaning and draining of rivers.
Deputy Andrews made a good contribution to this debate. I am not concerned with providing golf courses in the Phoenix Park—I am not familiar with the area—but I do think the Board of Works should get their priorities right. There are a number of rivers in my constituency. There is the Kealkil River on which a number of small farms are situated, and there is also the Toon River and the Buingea River. Six years ago Cork County Council received a deputation, and as a result we sent a deputation to the Parliamentary Secretary's predecessor. Everyone though something was going to be done but nothing has been done and because nothing has been done small farmers in the area are deprived of land project grants. This is due to the fact that there is insufficient outlet and the river is silted up. In my opinion it is not a very difficult job. There are a considerable number of overhanging trees, but the job could be done for a small amount of money.
In the Ballinhassig area we have the most fertile land in the county but it is flooded for six months of the year. When I put down a Parliamentary question about five years ago I was told this project was 17th on the priority list. When I made further inquiries I was told that six years before that it was seventh on the priority list. How is it decided where the money is to be spent? What factors are taken into consideration? Is it the kind of land or the number of farmers who will benefit? The restrictions imposed on land reclamation means that work will be limited if and when we join the Common Market. It is for that reason I am concerned with the slow progress made in my county.
An illustration of the snail's pace at which the Board works occurred recently in my home town. A floor was being put down in a Garda sergeant's house. He understood that a certain type of floor was going to be put down and because this man lives close to the prison cell the only room he has to entertain his friends in is this particular room and he wanted the best type of floor put down on it. He was, I think, justified in demanding this and last May he was given the impression he would get it. I made repeated representations to the office in Cork and the head office in Dublin but because of the cost involved the Board of Works decided, in their wisdom, that the matter should be referred to the Department of Justice. I pointed out to the Board of Works that a sergeant living ten miles away was given exactly the same type of floor. This man and his family have been waiting six months for their new floor because of the cost involved, despite all the expense of the visits made by inspectors and architects from the board. This is a classic example of the penny-wise, pound-foolish attitude of the Board of Works.
I have heard the condition of schools and Garda barracks discussed here and I know this is a problem shared by other Departments and it may be that all the blame should not be attributed to the Board of Works but I had a case where a Garda barracks was without running water and while I and other Deputies made representations to the Board of Works about it some 1½ years ago, it is still without a running water supply even though the Board of Works stated that they had advertised for a contractor. They got a contractor to do the boring but the position is still the same and if the Parliamentary Secretary wishes to look this up I am referring to Crookstown Garda station. It seems it takes approximately 1½ years to do something that a private householder could have done in a month or two.
I cannot understand why there should be such delay. It is deplorable because people get fed up waiting. We have problems about running water in some of our schools in my constituency. I shall not deal with these in detail because this is a matter in which the school manager, the Department of Education and the Board of Works may be involved and it is difficult to find where responsibility lies and where the delay is caused because of the joint interest of the different bodies. However, if the Parliamentary Secretary can do anything to expedite such work as soon as he has the responsibility of carrying it out, I would be quite prepared to join with the others who paid tribute to him here today but until I am satisfied there is an improvement I cannot do so.
I believe the points I have mentioned are important and, reverting to what I said at the outset about drainage, surely this is a problem that must be tackled? It is causing great hardship and loss of income to those concerned. I may be naive but where you have local authorities doing a job under a local improvements scheme on minor rivers and drains I suggest there should be some scheme whereby the local authorities would be in complete charge of such work. I think that would be much more effective and efficient. As it is, you have some that are the responsibility of the Board of Works and you have other minor rivers and drains that are being dealt with locally but on very limited funds. I should like to see a scheme comparable to the Local Authorities (Works) Act under which moneys would be provided for local authorities to enable them to do the work. I am convinced from experience that once you must go to a Department, make representations and use pressure through the local authority, you are bound to have delay. If schemes such as this could be simplified by giving complete authority to local authorities we would get far better results.
We have a considerable number of ancient monuments and historic buildings and while I would not suggest that they should get top priority I have seen old castles in County Cork and the only attention given them by the Board of Works that I have seen is to put up a notice saying "This is the property of the Board of Works". Many of these have fallen into disrepair in recent years because relatively small repairs were not carried out but a stitch in time saves nine. I regard those buildings as great tourist attractions. I live near one of them and you find that the only people who display an interest in them are the tourists. I would ask the Parliamentary Secretary to ensure that they are not allowed to fall into disrepair.
Coast erosion is a serious problem and I understand that because so much money is needed it is difficult to provide the necessary funds. It is a problem that I think is increasing. A great deal of land is being eroded and nothing is being done about it, particularly in County Cork, where there is such a huge coastline. Although we have made representations through the county council to the Parliamentary Secretary very little, if any, progress has been made.
Is it true that there is only one engineer responsible for the whole country?
I am told this is so. I do not know if it is correct, but I should like to remind the Parliamentary Secretary that the problem is growing and unless it is tackled in time it will be impossible to provide sufficient money to deal with it. I hope that when the Parliamentary Secretary is replying he will deal particularly with what I have said in connection with drainage in County Cork.
At a recent meeting of Cork County Council when we were discussing this matter no less a person than the great Martin Corry stated we would never have any of these problems attended to until we got a Parliamentary Secretary from Cork county because he said that the Parliamentary Secretary will attend to the problems of his own constituency first. When the present Parliamentary Secretary was appointed I put down a question to him seeing that he did not have such problems in his own constituency in the hope that he would give Cork county its just rights.
I want to deal first with arterial drainage. Recently a major arterial drainage scheme began in my constituency, the Boyne drainage scheme. I am sure the House is aware of the great benefits this scheme is conferring not only on County Meath but also on County Kildare. There is a great increase in employment and I understand the Board of Works are paying very good wages. This is commendable.
There are some drawbacks which I hope the Parliamentary Secretary will do his best to alleviate in due course. One of these is that the Boyne drainage is resulting in the drying up of wells in a number of cases. Some time ago I received a reply from the Parliamentary Secretary to the effect that no genuine wells would be interfered with. Since then my attention was drawn to a large number of wells which have dried up in the Bective area near Bective Abbey where the work has commenced on a very intensive scale. I know that some of these wells are very deep and by any standard could be described as genuine wells. It is obvious that their drying up and the considerable expense involved for the owners occured as a result of the work on the Boyne drainage scheme. This may be an inevitable result of drainage work but I would ask the Parliamentary Secretary to ensure that compensation is given to the people affected in this way.
There is another danger consequent on the lowering of the water table which results from drainage work of any description and that is the possibility that dry ground may become parched. I have no solid evidence that this has occured as yet but I would ask the Board of Works to keep a wary eye on the situation.
Another matter which arises is the question of spoil disposal. In some cases the amount of spoil as a result of drainage works greatly interferes with the productivity of land along the banks of the river.
Progress reported; Committee to sit again.