Dáil Éireann debate -
Wednesday, 25 Nov 1970

Vol. 249 No. 13

Adjournment Debate: Sale of Schools.

Mr. P. Belton

Today I asked a question about the number of disused schools sold in the last 12 months and how these sales were effected, whether it was by public auction or by the invitation of tenders. The Parliamentary Secretary told me that the information would be given in a tabular statement and I got a statement later on. In answer to supplementary questions, the Parliamentary Secretary told me that one school was disposed of by public auction. Most people would prefer such sales to be by public tender or bid because it is the fairest system. A person would bid what he thought the premises were worth. He would be afraid to go too low. If he really wanted the premises he would go a bit higher. If there was no interest, such a person might drop his price. But this could be covered by a reserve price on the premises.

As I said, the Parliamentary Secretary told me there was only one public auction in the last 12 months. I went through the list and there was only one — the one I mentioned in my supplementary question — the one at Glandore national school. There was another school in that town which was sold by tender. Was there some ulterior motive for this? Why was this particular school sold by auction? Was it done so that it could be bought cheaply by someone who wanted the site? Why was it sold in Dublin? Why was the sale given to an auctioneering firm, one of the directors of whom is a member of Taca? In fact, I think he is a director of Taca, but I will check that. How was it done by this company? They were not doing business in this part of the country. Was it done because they wanted to get into this part of the country and the Parliamentary Secretary helped them out? Was it done to improve their business in this part of the country in the future? In fact, this looks very bad to me because the Parliamentary Secretary's father is a director of the actual firm mentioned.

Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister for Finance (Mr. Lemass)

They made £42 on it.

Mr. P. Belton

The Parliamentary Secretary's father is a director of this company. I should like to ask the Parliamentary Secretary if there are not auctioneers in Cork, adjacent to this place. Surely there are auctioneering firms at Roscarbery, Skibbereen or Dunmanway? Why did they have to come to Dublin? Is it contrary to the practice of the Department to give the sale to some of the auctioneering firms in the country where the property is placed? Is it contrary to the practice of the Department to give the sale to some of the auctioneering firms in the district or do they have to go to Dublin or even to Galway? I should like to ask how this particular firm was picked. There are many auctioneering firms in Dublin. How was this firm picked? What is the procedure which was gone through to give it to this firm? Who has the sole right to pick out the firm and to give the sale to a particular firm? When I see the firms in Cork and in the villages and towns adjacent not getting this sale, I think it shows that the Parliamentary Secretary is either showing incompetence, or his Department did not advise him properly, or that there is a degree of patronage in this.

There is absolutely no doubt about it. This has taken away business from small auctioneers where the few quid that would be got on this would be a lot to them. But it was taken up by an avaricious auctioneer in Dublin. In fact, to me, it is against everything the Government say they believe in— decentralisation. Instead of keeping the money in country areas they are coming to Dublin to give it to their friends.

This auction was held in Dublin. Any interested party in Glandore had to drive 210 miles to Dublin and 210 miles back. They probably thought it would go for more money. One person bought it. This property has a total area of 3,000 square feet and was sold for £825. You would not build a cow shed for it in the area — and you had no reserve price on it. It was given to the auctioneer and no reserve price or sale price was specified. Was it to cut down bids that the auction was held in Dublin so that a certain few could bid for it?

This property is situated in the fabulous seaside resort of Glandore: 3,000 square feet goes for £825. Just to give the Parliamentary Secretary and to give people listening an idea of what 3,000 square feet represents, let me say that it is the same area as 3 houses bought in Dublin under the Small Dwellings (Acquisition) Acts costing £5,000 each — and it is sold for £825. It is bigger than 99 per cent of licensed premises in Dublin: this will give an idea of the size. It is the size of a small hotel or guest house and, with very little addition, could make a fabulous business — again, for £825.

Why was the auction held in Dublin? Why was this particular auctioneering firm given the job rather than anybody else? Why was there no reserve price on this property? Why was it not put out to public tender? It demonstrates complete incompetence that the people in charge of it have done this. I can see nothing else in it but a complete patronage job, if not a dishonest job.

Mr. O'Sullivan

As the Deputy representing the area where this school was sold, I would not be doing my duty to the people I represent if I did not say something about this transaction, for "transaction" I call it. Deputy Belton has explained the position clearly. He stated that this school is situated in the village of Glandore, County Cork, 210 miles from Dublin city. An advertisement appeared in the public press. Anybody in this locality who was interested in the sale of this school had, first and foremost, to find out where Messrs. North, auctioneers, had their premises in Dublin and then to hire a car, if they had not a car of their own, and travel the distance from Glandore to Dublin, and back again, in order to bid for this national school. Surely to God, in this day and age, the Department of Finance could get some responsible auctioneer in Cork for this purpose? I can assure the House that there are plenty of responsible auctioneers in Cork who are doing as much business as Messrs. North, or maybe more, even though they have not the "pull", and they would be quite capable of selling this school.

Why was this school picked out for public auction in the city of Dublin? Let me examine the following table of schools which were disposed of in the past year. The statement is as follows:—

Former National Schools sold since 1st November, 1969.

Name of former School	Location	Method of disposal	Price
Knocknagorna N.S.	Athea, County Limerick	Sold following public invitation to tender.	£300
Gormanstown N.S.	Ardfinnan, Clonmel, County Tipperary.	do.	£530
Killea N.S.	Near Kiltyclogher, County Leitrim.	do.	£65
Glandore N.S.	Skibbereen, County Cork	Sold by public auction	£825
Cloghoola N.S.	Millstreet, County Cork	Sold to St. Brendan's Diocesan Trust as a result of negotiations.	£240
Fionán Naofa N.S.	Dingle, County Kerry	do.	£1,250
Killoscully N.S.	Newport, County Tipperary.	Sold to trustees on behalf of the local community, as a result of negotiations.	£275

Why were the other schools in that list not auctioned in Dublin? How is it that it was possible to have them sold after tender or else sold as a result of negotiations? They picked out the school in Glandore. I am voicing the opinion of the people in that locality. They will be very troubled when they read in the newspapers tomorrow that this area was singled out. Glandore is one of the loveliest villages in Ireland and property in that area is commanding a very high price. What went on behind the scenes here? Indeed, what has happened is no surprise to me because I am well aware of many similar transactions and I am sure the majority of the people are well aware of that fact, too. It is about time, however, that someone stood up here and brought these facts to the attention of the public at large. I know the person who bought this property. I know the people who were interested in it. I know many others who would have bid for this school if it had been auctioned in the locality. I am speaking now neither for Fine Gael nor for Fianna Fáil nor for labour: I am speaking for the community in the area who want to see justice done and who are determined that this type of thing will not happen again.

Is this auctioneering firm the sole firm which has been given the business of disposing of the property of the Department of Finance in this country? I want a clear answer to that question. Is any other firm of auctioneers in this country given the right to sell property in any part of the country belonging to the Department of Finance? Glandore is probably one of the farthest points from Dublin in this Republic and yet a firm of auctioneers in Dublin was chosen to dispose of this property in the fabulously beautiful village of Glandore. They did not go down. If they had gone down, it would be all right. They sold the property in their auction rooms here in Dublin. I want to know why this procedure was adopted. Why has this firm of auctioneers been given the right to sell the property?

Mr. L'Estrange

Mr. Seán Lemass, the former Taoiseach, is a director of that firm.

Mr. O'Sullivan

Did the Government consider that there was no member of the auctioneering profession in Cork county capable of selling £800 worth of property?

Mr. L'Estrange

They had not subscribed to Taca.

Mr. O'Sullivan

Surely it is a reflection on the auctioneering firms of Cork County. Is it that the Government do not trust them?

Mr. L'Estrange

Hear, hear.

Mr. O'Sullivan

It is about time we got to the bottom of this matter. There will be many more instances that will be raised in this House and publicised by people who have the courage to do so — and the responsibility. I am sorry to have to keep the House so late tonight in order to voice the uneasiness that is felt in the Glandore area in regard to this matter. It is a matter which any decent Irishman would be sorry to have to raise. I do not give a hoot who the firm are, what their policy is, whether they are Taca, not Taca, un-Taca or de-Taca——

Mr. L'Estrange

They are Taca.

Mr. O'Sullivan

I want to say on behalf of the people whom I represent that we have plenty of auctioneers of ability and integrity who would be able to dispose of any property that has to be disposed of by the Department of Finance in Cork county.

Mr. L'Estrange

They have not grasping hands.

Mr. O'Sullivan

If the Government are not willing to give this type of business to auctioneers in the area concerned then let them tell the people that they will not do so and that they will support only one auctioneering firm in this country. Then the people will know what the Government are. The time has come when the people will see to it that fair play is given to everybody — to the clients and to the auctioneers.

Mr. L'Estrange

Integrity.

Mr. O'Sullivan

The people who motored all those miles to Dublin to buy this school did so not because they wanted to come here — knowing that every other school in this list was sold by tender or as a result of negotiations. They knew that all they had to do was to tender and post it in Glandore to Messrs. North, auctioneers, Dublin, and that if they submitted the highest figure they would be the purchasers.

Mr. L'Estrange

Who bought it? A haven of rest for the Taoiseach, is that it?

Mr. O'Sullivan

I am here because the people of the area I represent asked me to raise this matter. I am not raising it as a political issue but because I want to get fair play for the people whom I represent. I want to ensure that the man down in Glandore has as much right to buy the school as the man living in O'Connell Street, Dublin, and that the man living in O'Connell Street is not going to get a chance of buying the school because people in Glandore could not afford, for one reason or another, to come to Dublin and to bid for it. I want to know also if this is the only firm to canvass the property in Cork county belonging to the Department of Finance. If it is the position that this auctioneer has a complete monopoly in this respect, I should like the Parliamentary Secretary to say that this is the last time he will have it and that fair play will be given to the other auctioneers throughout the country and especially in the county where the property is located and that it will be sold there.

Mr. T.J. Fitzpatrick

(Cavan): What did the advertising expenses amount to?

Mr. Lemass

I have not that information.

Mr. P. Belton

You have to pay for the fellows going down to look at it, too.

Mr. Lemass

I know it is on the record of the House but, for the information of Deputies, let me say that the tabular statement which I gave to Deputy O'Sullivan and to Deputy Belton reads as follows:

Former National Schools sold since 1st November, 1969.

Name of former School	Location	Method of disposal	Price
Knocknagorna N.S.	Athea, County Limerick	Sold following public invitation to tender.	£300
Gormanstown N.S.	Ardfinnan, Clonmel, County Tipperary.	do.	£530
Killea N.S.	Near Kiltyclogher, County Leitrim.	do.	£65
Glandore N.S.	Skibbereen, County Cork	Sold by public auction	£825
Cloghoola N.S.	Millstreet, County Cork	Sold to St. Brendan's Diocesan Trust as a result of negotiations.	£240
Fionán Naofa N.S.	Dingle, County Kerry	do.	£1,250
Killoscully N.S.	Newport, County Tipperary.	Sold to trustees on behalf of the local community, as a result of negotiations.	£275

I should like to say at the outset as I said here last Thursday, and as I am quite prepared to repeat tomorrow that, generally speaking, I subscribe to the idea of the employment of local auctioneers so far as possible in the sale of State property in areas outside Dublin. I should like to mention to the House some sales which were conducted in recent years by local auctioneers on behalf of the Commissioners of property outside the city of Dublin. I should like to inform Deputy O'Sullivan that only one commission was given by me to the firm of auctioneers which was referred to and I hope they can retire and increase the value of their shares as a result of their commission of £42.

Mr. P. Belton

That is not the point.

Mr. Lemass

Auctioneers nominated by the Parliamentary Secretary in all cases and premises sold by auction were as follows: Fanore, Clare, Michael McMahon, Ennis, County Clare. If the Deputy can attach a label to him he can do so. I will read them out as they come: Ballyhaise, Cavan, Denis O'Keeffe, Cavan.

Mr. P. Belton

This was before the Deputy was Parliamentary Secretary.

Mr. Lemass

Fethard, Tipperary, P.F. Quirke of Clonmel, County Tipperary; Hollyfort, Wexford, Allen and Kenny, Gorey, County Wexford. Does the Deputy like that one?

Mr. P. Belton

This was before the Deputy was Parliamentary Secretary.

Mr. Lemass

Mount Merrion, Dublin, P.J. O'Dwyer, Clare Street, Dublin; Bunbeg, Donegal, Campbell and Brennan, Glenties, Donegal; and the garda station in Midleton was auctioned recently by a local auctioneer whose name I have not got here but I know that we succeeded in getting a price well in excess of £1,000 because of local interest and that was the most hopeful estimate of our valuer.

Mr. P. Belton

You got £825 for 3,000 square feet.

Mr. Lemass

In this case I felt it desirable to employ one of the big autioneers. As I said last Thursday there are about 20 in the big league with connections all over the world. I chose one of the big auctioneers because this is a popular tourist resort location and it seemed to me that it should attract considerable interest from well outside the surrounding area.

Mr. P. Belton

Why did you not put a reserve price on it?

Mr. Lemass

We did. The bidding at the auction was quite keen. The school was built 135 years ago for a sum in the region of £300.

Mr. P. Belton

So what?

Mr. Lemass

Another old school in the same area referred to by Deputy Belton — about two miles away in fact — at Reen-o-greena was sold the previous year for £311 as a result of inviting public tenders.

Mr. P. Belton

What is the area?

Mr. Lemass

It is a slightly smaller area.

Mr. P. Belton

I know it is.

Mr. Lemass

It is not quite as old a school but as a result of inviting tenders we got £311. In the case of Glandore we got a price well in excess of that given as a reserve to the auctioneer.

Mr. P. Belton

No businessman would sell anything without having a proper reserve on it.

Mr. Lemass

I consider that my decision in the Glandore case was right and justified as the price secured exceeded the reserve. I assure the Deputy that no property is sold without a reserve price. As the question was asked by Deputy O'Sullivan the purchaser was Frederick Stuart L'Estrange Woods.

Mr. P. Belton

Where did he come from?

Mr. Lemass

He bought it.

The Dáil adjourned at 11 p.m. until 10.30 a.m. on Thursday, 26th November, 1970.