On the order of business, I suggest that the proceedings which have taken place here yesterday afternoon and this morning——
Order of Business (Resumed).
Could those Fianna Fáil Deputies who are talking up there either leave the House or keep quiet?
Order.
It is not ability anyway.
It is not disability either.
Order. Deputies will obey the Chair.
I was about to suggest that the proceedings we have had here yesterday and again today will not help us to get through the business and I suggest to the Taoiseach and to the other Deputies in the House that Parliamentary democracy will function only if the system is properly used; it cannot operate if the machinery of debate is by-passed. Nobody will be completely satisfied since both sides feel strongly on the matters to be discussed and both sides will, possibly, have to accommodate the other side to some extent. I suggest that in order to make it possible to get a rational timetable to discuss the major matters that have to be disposed of before Christmas—they would include the question of internment and also some of the business the Taoiseach mentioned earlier—some arrangement will have to be reached and the question as to whether it is possible to get agreement on all of the business is a matter that might be left over for discussion elsewhere. At the same time, if we value the democratic system, we can only preserve that system by making it work and that means a reasonable approach by everyone. I suggest to the Taoiseach and to the Labour Party Chief Whip that it ought to be possible to decide on a timetable which will enable us to do that before the Dáil adjourns for Christmas.
I should like to make it quite clear that, as far as the Labour Party are concerned, we have already indicated to the Taoiseach that we are prepared to facilitate all the business on the Order Paper with the exception of the Prices and Incomes Bill which we regard as undemocratic. We also regard this threatened internment as undemocratic. We cannot sacrifice one principle to try to defend another principle. With that exception, we are prepared to facilitate the Taoiseach in every way. We are also prepared to give extra time. As far as the Labour Party protest is concerned, we make this protest to demonstrate clearly to the Irish people that, if democracy is in danger, it is in danger because the Taoiseach and the Fianna Fáil Party refuse a debate in Parliament on this major issue.
I am entitled to my say. I have not refused a debate. In relation to the Prices and Incomes Bill, we regard inflation as the greatest economic threat to this country at the present time. We believe our Bill is the best means whereby we can defeat inflation. We believe, too, that it is a matter of great urgency for many reasons. We have had this Bill before the House ever since the commencement of this term, long enough to have had a debate on it not only here but in the Seanad as well. I know there are difficulties facing us now because of the shortage of time between now and Christmas, but the Government want this Bill before 1st January when its provisions will begin to operate. I am prepared to agree to our Whip sitting down with the other Whips to discuss a timetable, as suggested by Deputy Cosgrave.
Could we not——
I have not finished. As Deputy Cosgrave said, in order to maintain the democratic principles of this House there must be some give and take. I have given twice already but there has not been the slightest give on the part of the Labour Party.
This may be a simple question: why can we not have one extra day's debate on the Taoiseach's announcement last week? Can we have a one-day debate on the subject matter of the Taoiseach's announcement last week? Every Deputy is, I understand, willing to give time for it. It will not interfere with the timetable. Could we have that debate tomorrow?
I will give that provided the Labour Party will give in return.
Give what in return?
The pieces of legislation we want.
We will not give it.
We will give a day in lieu.
Would the Taoiseach not——
(interruptions.)
Order.
I have my principles too.
We have endeavoured to introduce rationality. Let us try now to proceed along these lines. Would the Taoiseach not agree that had this internment announcement not come—the normal days' sittings had been arranged—we would have proceeded with the business as arranged and we might or we might not have got the Prices and Incomes Bill through? We accept fully that the Taoiseach does not want to prejudice that Bill to a greater extent than it is prejudiced already by giving time which he cannot recover but, if the other side of the House is willing to give him the full time lost, he will be in no worse position than he would have been had the internment issue not been raised at all. It is improper and unwise and, I think, from his point of view undesirable, to appear in this House to be using this internment measure and the fate of a debate on it in order to achieve a timetable for the Prices and Incomes Bill which might not otherwise have been achieved. To use the internment issue for this purpose is creating difficulty here and it is asking the House to enter into discussions without preconditions to see if we can solve this problem.
We can get nowhere on this until we get down and talk to each other. I have asked the House to take business as ordered. Would the House agree now to proceed with the business and let the Whips proceed to work out a timetable?
The Taoiseach knows from his experience that, of the five items on the Order Paper, four of them are ones which normally would go through, two in less than a quarter of an hour; the other two might take an hour or a little bit more. The Taoiseach knows that. What, in effect, he is saying is that he wants a guarantee from the House that the Prices and Incomes Bill will go through. If he wants to take a chance on that he is not prejudicing that chance by giving time for a debate on the other important matter; he can still vote it through if he wants to. But we will not say to him that we are abandoning our opposition to the Prices and Incomes Bill. We are, I think, being perfectly reasonable. We will give him all the time he wants, all night, if he wants it, right up to Christmas Eve——
Christmas Day.
Not Christmas Day. I think this is a matter with which, if the Taoiseach reflects on it, he will find it quite easy to deal and I suggest that what he does now is give time for a debate on the internment issue tomorrow and then there will be ample lime for the Taoiseach and his party to deal with the Prices and Incomes Bill in the way in which he intended from the first.
Deputies
Hear, hear.
What has the Taoiseach got to say to that reasonable request?
I am still holding to my proposition that it is not unreasonable for me, in return for a concession offered, to ask for a concession from the Labour Party.
What concession?
I am talking in general terms. In return for the concession offered I asked for another concession; I have undertaken already to provide in two different ways a vehicle for a debate on the internment statement and, so far, neither has been acceptable. What I am suggesting now is that we proceed with the business and ask the Whips to meet and report back here, say, before Question Time. Then the Labour Party can start this procedure again, if they want to, of getting their members put out.
Do not be catty, now.
The Government procedure is responsible for it.
Is it not reasonable to suggest that we proceed with the business, as ordered? Let the Whips get together and report back to the House in two or three hours.
Has the Taoiseach or the Fianna Fáil Party any suggestion other than what has been made?
Oh, for goodness' sake——
Yes.
The Taoiseach is changing his mind.
Surely this cross-talk is wasting time? Is it not much better to discuss the matter and, if we cannot reach agreement, then that is that?
Let us be clear that, on the Prices and Incomes Bill, the Labour Party will vote against every section—which will take some time. Because of that, we could not give a guarantee to the Taoiseach that we would allow the Bill to go through before a certain time or date. That is fair. If the Taoiseach is prepared to accept that, then I can see no reason why the Whips should not discuss it and report back at 2.30 p.m.
We are discussing here what the Whips should be discussing.
The Whips would not have authority——
We will agree to that. We shall report back to the House at 2.30 p.m.