asked the Minister for Education if he will make available in the Library of the House the scale of dietary drawn up by the medical officers of industrial and reformatory schools and approved by his inspectors; and whether he is satisfied that this scale is in fact adhered to in these institutions.
Ceisteanna—Questions. Oral Answers. - Industrial Schools.
113.
Diet charts which are kept in these schools are available for inspection in the schools. Inspections which have been carried out have revealed that the scale of diet is satisfactory and is being adhered to. The very substantial increase in grants to these schools which was made in 1969 has enabled the schools to improve the scale of diet accordingly.
I do not feel that any useful purpose would be served by seeking diet charts from individual schools and placing them in the Library of the House.
That was not what I asked. I am not asking what is actually done. I am asking what is the scale of dietary laid down under Rule No. 6 of the Rules and Regulations for Certified Industrial Schools.
The Deputy will find in the reply to one of his later questions that these rules and regulations about which he has only recently become aware are very old. In fact much of what they recommend is a minimum requirement and much of what is being provided at present is far in excess of these minimum requirements. I appreciate the Deputy's point but the practice now is that dietary charts are kept in the schools themselves. If he wants any information on them I suggest he communicate with the schools concerned.
The Parliamentary Secretary has examined these and is quite satisfied?
Perfectly so. If either Deputy FitzGerald or any other Deputy knows of any instances that they are not satisfactory, we shall be glad to hear about them.
114.
asked the Minister for Education whether he considers it reasonable under the regulations for certified industrial schools that children of 14 years should have not less than three hours literary instruction plus up to six hours industrial training; and whether we will take steps to ensure that the total daily hours worked will not exceed seven.
115.
asked the Minister for Education whether the punishment book referred to in clause 12 of the regulations for certified industrial schools is maintained in these schools; and, if so, whether he will enable Members of the House to inspect these books.
116.
asked the Minister for Education what training is now being given in industrial schools in accordance with clause 9 of the regulations for certified industrial schools.
With your permission, a Cheann Comhairle, I propose to take Questions Nos. 114, 115 and 116 together. The Deputy's questions derive from Rules and Regulations for Certified Industrial Schools which were framed many years ago and which in relation to the matters raised by him are no longer being operated. For example, with the exception of four institutions, three of which cater solely for boys, all industrial school children go out to local schools for their education and there is now no industrial training for such children. In the case of schools which cater for delinquents, the emphasis is on rehabilitation through education by means of a specially prepared curriculum. No industrial school now keeps a punishment book.
It is one thing to say that the rules do not apply because the children go out to school—that may be a reason for the rule about the amount of literary instruction not being applicable any more—but I do not understand about the punishment book. Is it suggested that no punishments are inflicted in industrial schools any more?
It is not so suggested. Apparently for one reason or another, which I cannot explain to the Deputy here, they are not and have not been kept for some time.
Does the Parliamentary Secretary not think this is a very serious abuse? These rules were laid down to protect the children in various ways. Rule No. 12 was laid down to protect them from unsuitable or improper punishment. It states that all serious misconduct and the punishments inflicted for it shall be entered in a book to be kept for that purpose which shall be laid before the inspector when he visits. Can the Parliamentary Secretary explain to the House how his inspectors have failed to insist on this and how they have allowed this practice to fall into disuse?
As I indicated to the Deputy earlier, many of these roles are a carryover from the last century.
They relate to minimum standards which were in operation from Dickensian times. I can assure the Deputy that at visitations and inspections the inspectors go into all aspects including the treatment and discipline of the children. The keeping of a book, which I think the Deputy will accept might not always be infallible, has been disregarded for many years.
Can the Parliamentary Secretary say in what way it is improving on minimum conditions to remove an essential safeguard?
Only if one accepts that it is an essential safeguard. In the present climate particularly, it is not even necessary as a safeguard.
Is the Parliamentary Secretary really assuring us that in none of these schools punishment is meted out beyond what is necessary?
One can hardly give that assurance in relation to any school.
As there is concrete evidence to the contrary, does he not feel this protection for the children should be reinstated?
I would hope we could get away from this negative Dickensian approach. I am not suggesting that it is the Deputy's approach. If it seemed to be necessary and desirable in the interests of the children or to prevent more punishment, I am sure it could be reintroduced.
What is negative about it? The purpose of the book is to ensure that no punishment can be given which the inspector will not be aware of?
The actual noting of punishment could in the past have been a matter of satisfaction to some people, but we all take a more enlightened view now.
That is not the purpose of the book.
It is one of the effects of the book. We are concerned with human nature as well as statistics. I certainly have never heard of a punishment book and I do not think the Deputy had either until someone directed his attention to this. I do not think he should be concerned with something he did not know about until this week, when suddenly he found out the book was not there and now he wants it resurrected.
If the Parliamentary Secretary can think of another safeguard which would be more effective, I would be prepared to accept it, but he has not offered me any other safeguard.
One relies on the regular reports and the reports from inspectors.
When we come to Question No. 118 we shall know how regular the inspections are.
117.
asked the Minister for Education how many workshops will be available in the new De La Salle remand home in Finglas; how many places these workshops will have: and how this figure relates to the total number of inmates the home will cater for.
The preventive centre at Finglas will cater for 46 boys in the age range 10-14 years and 25 boys in the age range 15-17 years. School accommodation for the senior boys will consist of one workshop for 25 boys and one classroom. There will be three classrooms for the junior pupils.
118.
asked the Minister for Education how many inspections of each industrial school and reformatory were made in each of the years 1968, 1969, and 1970 to date.
The compilation of this information would involve going through the files for all these schools for the years in question. I am not satisfied that the amount of time and work which this would involve would be warranted.
That reply is not worthy of the Parliamentary Secretary. We are dealing with a serious matter here. We want to know whether the inspectorial system has worked. We have concrete evidence that in one instance it has not. We are entitled to know how often these inspections take place. It is not a major problem. There are 29 schools. How many inspectors are there altogether?
That does not arise on the question. There are 28 industrial schools and three reformatory schools. The information which the Deputy seeks in relation to this question and all the other questions he has down today could keep one section of the Department going for quite a long period. There are other things to do. We cannot set up an information service for Deputy FitzGerald to go back to whatever year of dot he wishes.
1968 is not the year of dot.
We are referring here to 31 schools and it would mean going over the files in each section. The Deputy should appreciate that statistics are not the end of affairs and that other things have to be done in the Department.
The Parliamentary Secretary is stonewalling. We are entitled to know how frequently these schools are inspected. If the Parliamentary Secretary says it is too much trouble to go back that far, he can give us the figures for 12 months back.
It was not feasible and it was not possible with the work load involved to get that information. If the Deputy wishes to put down a question relating to 12 months back at a later stage we could possibly do that.
119.
asked the Minister for Education what financial provision is made by his Department to enable managers of certified industrial schools and reformatories to maintain contact with discharged children in accordance with clause 16 of the regulations for certified industrial schools; and what a proportion of children discharged in 1968 and 1969 have, in fact, been contacted in person by managers since their discharge.
The financial provision for industrial schools and reformatories relates to the number of children in these institutions at any given time. There is no detailed information in my Department as to the contacts maintained by managers with those discharged in the years in question.
Does the Parliamentary Secretary mean that the inspection system does not disclose whether this very valuable regulation is being enforced or not?
The managers contact and inform the inspectors about them. I think the Deputy asked what proportion of the children discharged in 1968 and 1969 have, in fact, been contacted in person by managers since their discharge. Unfortunately, pen and pencil records of each contact made, informal or otherwise, are not kept, and the Department are not notified on this basis, but they do, in fact, keep contact and we are satisfied to that extent.
120.
asked the Minister for Education whether he makes financial provision for children aged 16 or over who wish to remain at a certified industrial school or reformatory.
Under section 12 of the Children (Amendment) Act, 1941, children may be retained in industrial schools up to the age of 17 years, at the request of their parents or guardian, for the purpose of continuing their education or training. The usual capitation grants are paid in such cases.
If the child does not either have a parent or guardian can he be kept on at his own request?
If the child has not a parent or guardian?
Yes, that is what my question was about. Many of the children do not have parents or guardians and this fact comes out very clearly in the report.
While I believe it can be paid, I do not want to make a statement without first checking.