Vol. 251 No. 4
asked the Minister for Finance the number of outside reporters at present employed on the production of the Official Reports; from what sources they were employed; if he will indicate the rates of remuneration; and how these rates compare with the rates for the official reporters.
25.
asked the Minister for Finance the number of extra reporters employed for Oireachtas duty in January, 1971; how they were recruited; what payment per day was made to them; and if any of them are non-nationals.
27.
andDr. O'Connell asked the Minister for Finance the reason for the employment of non-national reporting staff in the Oireachtas; and the rates of pay for these as against the normal rate of pay for this work.
I propose, with your permission, a Cheann Comhairle, to take Questions Nos. 24, 25 and 27 together.
I am informed by the Ceann Comhairle that during the week which began on 25th January, 1971, two reporters from England were engaged to supplement the normal reporting establishment attached to the Houses of the Oireachtas and that during the present week it is proposed to employ three such reporters. These steps have become necessary because of the temporary additional demands on the reporting staff caused by the current proceedings of the Committee of Public Accounts.
The reporters from England were engaged by the Ceann Comhairle on a contract basis with an agency in London. Neither the Ceann Comhairle nor I is aware what the agency pays to the individuals whom it supplies.
In addition, a former Editor of Debates who is now on pension has been employed at the maximum of the rate appropriate to a Reporter. The scales for Reporter are from £1,595 to £2,300 for a man and from £1,295 to £1,845 for a woman. Furthermore, a former lady member of the reporting staff is engaged at the rate appropriate to casually-employed reporters, viz £2 5s a day attendance fee plus £1 8s per 10-minute take.
Would the Minister be able to say whether or not this extra work has been brought about because of the fact that, although the Seanad only met four times last session, it was decided to have the Seanad meet this session on the same days as the Committee of Public Accounts and the Dáil met? This is what has caused all this and would the Minister be prepared to state whether or not the figure of £17 per day is correct for the ladies who came across the water to do the job?
£29.
Just a moment. Is that correct or is it not?
I do not know.
The Minister may not know officially, but would he say what is paid? I do not care what the agency pays them; would he say what he is paying them?
I do not know officially or unofficially, what these people are paid. As I explained, the contract is made with an agency and I do not know what is being paid by the agency to the individuals.
Would the Minister not be able to divide the amount paid to the agency by two, in one case, and by three in the other, and say what it is costing the taxpayers of this country to pay these people in view of the miserly rates we pay to those who are doing the job all the time.
(Cavan): Arising out of the Minister's——
Might I answer the first part of Deputy Tully's supplementary? There seems to me to be an implication in what he said—that there was some Machiavellian scheme to call the Seanad together on particular days——
A stupid scheme, not Machiavellian.
The fact of the matter is that the Committee of Public Accounts decides its own procedure and when it will meet. The normal complement of reporters is sufficient to meet the requirements of the Dáil and Seanad, but the Committee of Public Accounts, as Deputies know, is meeting at considerable length and requires reports to be available by the following Monday and this is not possible with the normal reporting staff.
What about the Seanad?
Why had we to travel to Britain for the five reporters?
Because they are not available here.
Not qualified?
Not one.
(Cavan): Arising out of the Minister's reply, might I ask the Minister whether these people who have been recruited from abroad are bound by the Official Secrets Act and how it is proposed to enforce the Official Secrets Act in respect of them.
That seems to be a separate question.
It is, I think, a separate question and I cannot answer it precisely except that I presume, and I must accept, that the Committee of Public Accounts had regard to this matter.
Is the Minister not aware that offers were made to the Oireachtas of reporters for reporting?
I am aware of the fact that they were not available apart from the additional people I have mentioned, the former Editor of Debates and the lady who had formerly been employed full-time as a reporter here. Apart from these, I am aware of the fact that there were no suitably qualified people available.
Were there not offers made by workers in newspapers?
There were none suitable for employment.
I am informed that they did offer their services.
Suitably qualified?
Yes.
The information available to me was that none such was available from the newspapers or otherwise.
I presume the Minister is responsible for payment for these three people to the agency in Britain. Is that not so?
I am responsible for sanctioning the——
The Minister for Finance pays, does he not?
Yes.
Could the Minister tell us how much is paid per person per day to this agency and the expenses?
I can say how much is being paid to the agency.
That is what I want.
There is a daily fee of £29 for each person together with all travel and living expenses.
What would that come to? There must be special rates for living allowances and for travel. Could the Minister put a figure on these?
I am afraid I could not put an actual figure on it.
The Minister should be able to do that. That information should be in his brief on these four questions.
It is not totalled.
The next time a claim comes from the staff the Minister will not, I hope, be able to say: "We cannot afford to pay these rates."
I should like to make it clear that there is no comparison in the rates paid to anybody, whether they be official reporters, translators, interpreters or anything else who are engaged on a free-lance basis and those paid to people who are employed on a permanent basis.
What about the temporary who is getting 50s a day and 25s a "take", for God's sake?
May I ask a final supplementary question? May I ask if the Minister would generally accept that it is quite evident for some considerable time past that the staffing arrangements of both Houses of the Oireachtas, particularly during 1970, have been under considerable strain, including reporting staff arrangements, and if he would, together with the Ceann Comhairle, make an immediate and very urgent review of these arrangements with a view to expanding staff generally in the House?
That question is dealt with in Question No. 26 which I shall be replying to later on.
Would the Minister ensure that those particular people are not "on" for any secret session of the Public Accounts Committee from now on?
I cannot control this.
Will the Minister see that somebody does? Is the Minister aware that those people could go back to England and sell either as a book, or to the Sunday Express or Sunday Times or News of the World, what they have heard at the secret session of this Committee during the past few days?
I do not control this.
(Cavan): The Minister has told us that he is responsible for sanctioning these appointments. Surely before he sanctioned them he gave consideration to the question of the Official Secrets Act and how these people would be bound by it and would the Minister tell us what steps he has in fact taken in that direction?
No, that is not my responsibility.
(Cavan): Surely it is.
No, it is not.
I want to ask the Minister a very simple question: why did he want to withhold from the Dáil the information which he later had to give regarding the payments in respect of each such reporter employed? Am I correct in asserting that the Minister endeavoured to withhold that information?
No, the Deputy is not correct.
That is so. It was dragged out of him.
If the Deputy wanted to ask that question he should have put it down.
Question No. 26 — Deputy Sir Anthony Esmonde.
26.
asked the Minister for Finance if he is aware of the shortage of personnel in the Oireachtas Reporting Staff, and, if so, if he will take immediate action to remedy this situation.
Under section 8 of the Staff of the Houses of the Oireachtas Act, 1959, the number of reporting staff is determined, with the sanction of the Minister for Finance, by the Chairman of Dáil Éireann, after consultation with the Chairman of Seanad Éireann.
I am informed that the present authorised establishment for the reporting staff would be sufficient in normal circumstances if all vacancies could be filled. At present, however, circumstances are not normal in that the current investigation by the Committee of Public Accounts into the grant for Northern Ireland Relief, 1969-70, means an extra burden on the reporting staff when the Dáil and Seanad are sitting simultaneously. In addition, there are two vacancies for Reporter and three for Reporter Grade II.
My Department are in touch with the Office of the Houses of the Oireachtas with a view to the filling of these vacancies as soon as possible. In the meantime, recourse is being had to the temporary employment of outside reporters.
Is the Minister aware that the Oireachtas staff are waiting here for a period of four or five months for a commission to be held to appoint people on that staff? Could he indicate to the House what is the reason for the delay?
I am not aware of what the Deputy says. I am aware that steps are being taken, as I said, to fill these vacancies in so far as this can be done. I think it is no harm that Deputies should acknowledge the fact that verbatim reporting is becoming a dying art. This is a fact of life.
What does the Minister mean by that?
I am calling Deputy Desmond for a final supplementary.
The Minister says verbatim reporting is a dying art. I want to know if the Minister has any plans for holding a commission or adopting whatever procedure is required to appoint staff here to Dáil Éireann? They are already two or three short. A reply to say that verbatim reporting is finishing is just unadulterated nonsense.
I do not think the Deputy was listening to my reply.
Would the Minister answer my question?
I added in my reply to his question at the end of it, as I had already said, that steps are being taken at present in conjunction with the Offices of the Houses of the Oireachtas to fill these vacancies.
When?
I cannot say when.
The Minister has not answered my question and I am entitled to an answer. Why does the Minister not have the commission instead of foostering about it?
Would the Deputy allow Deputy Desmond to put his question? Deputy Esmonde is not so entitled.
I am entitled to a reply. I have equal rights with any other Deputy here.
Will the Deputy please resume his seat? The Deputy is not entitled to anything.
I have equal rights with any other Deputy. The Minister will not answer and I am entitled to ask why he will not answer.
Deputy Desmond will put a final supplementary question.
With your permission, A Cheann Comhairle, I shall raise this matter on the Adjournment.
Would the Minister accept that these positions could be filled quite expeditiously if he would review, as a matter of urgency, the current inadequate structure and the whole basis of the payments made to the Oireachtas Reporting Staff because while they are alive and working they must be paid? They have to be recruited and nobody will take up the job on the basis of the rates offered?
I have no evidence whatever to suggest that what the Deputy suggests is correct.
28.
asked the Minister for Finance if overtime payment has yet been paid to the official reporters employed in Dáil Éireann for the long debate in May, 1970; and, if not, why.
No payment has been made as the reporting staff do not belong to grades which are eligible for paid overtime.
Is the Minister suggesting that the girls and the men who worked here all night during the night of the long debate are not to be paid anything extra for doing that work?
Certain grades of staff were paid additional gratuities in respect of it but there are certain grades at which and above which overtime is not paid——
Specify them?
——and in these cases, the cases the Deputy has in mind, I think, normally compensation is given by way of time off during Recess.
Does the Minister not agree that his answer is too ridiculous for words——
No.
——that the group of girls and two or three men who worked here all night during that debate under great strain might have been offered time off? In fact, they were not offered time off and did not get time off instead of it. They do not want time off; they want money. I would refer to the Taoiseach: Is it not true that on the night that the Dáil adjourned before Christmas I approached you and asked you to intervene and you said you would? Has anything been done about it since?
I have been in touch with the Minister about it, yes.
And the Minister's answer is that he is not going to pay these people.
The Minister is bound by regulations like everybody else.
Of course he is not bound by regulations; if he was he could not be paying nearly £40 a day to bring three girls from Britain.
Hear, hear.
It was not the night of the long debate, as suggested by Deputy Tully, it was the night of the long knives.
The Deputies might get together and——
The remaining questions will appear——
Might I ask if the Minister will have another look at this matter and see if something can be done to put it in order?
Without any commitment whatever, yes.
Unfortunately, I was under the impression that I got a commitment from the Taoiseach.
Oh, no.
——and from Deputy Lemass earlier on this.
I gave the Deputy no commitment other than that I would communicate with the Minister.
The Taoiseach said he would look into it.
Is that a commitment?
You should see that justice is carried out.
The remaining questions will appear on tomorrow's Order Paper.
Because of the great alarm that is widespread among people particularly among those living along Border areas I propose, with your permission, a Cheann Comhairle to raise on the Adjournment the inadequacy of police protection along the Border. I have been waiting for a week for an answer to Question No. 53 and I would, therefore, ask the Chair to let me have——
The Chair will consider the matter.
Will the Ceann Comhairle let me have a reply to the question in writing?
The Deputy will get such a reply.
