Dáil Éireann debate -
Wednesday, 24 Feb 1971

Vol. 251 No. 13

Committee on Finance. - Adjournment Debate: Health Grants.

Mr. Tully

The matter I raise is the delay by the Department of Health in announcing the amount of health grants to local authorities for the year 1971-72. My reason for doing so tonight on the Adjournment is twofold: first, because of the outmoded arrangement in this House whereby matters of urgent importance cannot be raised in any other way; and, secondly, because I wanted some information from the Minister which it is important that local authorities would have this week. I want to apologise to you, Sir, and to the people who are being kept here, particularly the staff who I know will have to work overtime without getting any pay for it. I have 20 minutes to make a case. I propose to take two or three minutes at the most and I am quite sure the Minister will be as brief in his reply.

I simply want to know why it has not been possible up till now to notify local authorities of the amount of health grant which they will be given for the year 1971-72. For the past few weeks preliminary estimates meetings have been held all over the country. The object of these meetings by the local authorities is to strike a rate for the coming year. In each case it has been found impossible to strike a rate because no county council knew what amount of health grant they would receive. The matter is made more complicated this year because, for the first time, from 1st April, the new health committees will come into operation. It is bad enough to have these arrangements to make having found out what money we have to work on, but it is worse when the local authorities cannot say what the amount of the health rate will be or what the amount of the rates will be because of this failure of the Department to supply the information.

I know the Minister can say that the county council have quite a long time yet finally to strike their rate. That is quite true but take the case of the county council which have had one or two preliminary meetings and have reached a figure except for health and have arranged to have their ordinary meeting next week to strike the rate and who still find they can get no information from the Department of Health as to what the amount of the health grant will be. If the county council are unable to strike the rate at their meeting next week they must then go to the trouble and expense of calling a special meeting at a later stage for the purpose of striking the rate. If it were a question of not being able to supply the information I could understand it. However, the Minister will remember that several weeks ago I asked him in this House if he was aware of this situation building up and if he would do what he could to ensure that the information would be passed on in good time. He told me that, while he could not guarantee it would be done, he would do everything possible to ensure the information would be in the possession of the local authorities in time for the striking of the rate.

I do not know who is responsible. The bush telegraph tells me it is not the Minister, that he is as anxious as I am that the information should be available, but that in fact the Department of Finance are the people who, for some peculiar reason of their own, cannot be forced to disclose the information which we want. I want to know from the Minister tonight if he can supply the information to the local authorities this week and, if he cannot, if there is anything this House or anybody can do to try to get that information.

We talk about co-operation between local authorities and various other types of co-operation, but this is the greatest example of lack of co-operation where a Department of State have failed to give vital information to the local authorities. Not alone my local authority but every local authority are in this position. They have not got the information and there is nothing they can do about it. If the Minister can say that the information can now be made available I will not delay the House any longer.

Mr. L'Estrange

I agree with what Deputy Tully has said. This information should be made available immediately. I hope it will be made available in this House, and that the Minister or the Government do not use a function in some part of the country to make it available, as has been happening so often. The Minister should try to see that this House functions properly. The Government are by-passing this House too often.

From the information I have it seems that the county councils of Ireland are looking for increases ranging from 15s to £2 in the £. Those increases are, on average, three to four times the amount sought in any previous year and the members of local authorities will try to hold the scales as evenly as possible between the people who sent them there and the services that require money. They realise the demands place a huge burden on the backs of the ratepayers. Another matter which must be taken into consideration—perhaps it does not arise here—is that the road grants have been cut for the past few years.

An Ceann Comhairle

The question of road grants——

Mr. L'Estrange

I know. I am mentioning it only in passing, which I am certainly entitled to do. I remember Dr. Ryan telling us that the extra cost of health would not amount to more than 2s in the £ for the different county councils of Ireland. We were told in a White Paper that was issued prior to 1965 that it was the Government's intention to stabilise the health rate, but it has not been stabilised since. It is a huge burden and the time has come for the Minister for Health to take action.

Deputy Tully has spoken about the county councils meeting. The county council of which I am a member is meeting next week. It must be remembered that the rate must be struck within 21 days of the first meeting. The county councils of Ireland will be facing the problem which Deputy Tully has mentioned. Therefore, it is the Minister's duty to supply this information so that the county councils can carry on with their work as expeditiously as possible.

Minister for Health (Mr. Childers)

As the House knows the regulations in regard to the expenditure of the Department of Health under the Health Act, 1970, provide that there will be grants to defray one half of the expenditure of the boards, other than capital expenditure, and expenditure on loan charges as authorised under the Act which is not met by receipts other than grants and contributions under this section. Then supplementary grants are given for a percentage over 50 per cent of the cost of the services after consultation with the Minister for Local Government and the Minister for Finance.

I can quite understand that the members of local authorities wish to know the amount of the contribution from central sources as soon as possible and I will do my very best to make that information available within the course of the next seven days. I cannot go further than that.

Mr. Tully

Would it be possible to have it this week, because most of the meetings are on Monday?

Mr. Childers

It may be possible this week but I cannot give a guarantee. I will do my best to get the information in time for local authorities to know the position before Monday, but I cannot absolutely guarantee that. The reason for the delay lies in the preparation of the Budget. This is not the only country in the world where the Budget has been very much affected by inflation. Inflation can be seen all over the world in a variety of countries, some of them with extremely stable Governments like our own——

Mr. L'Estrange

The Minister has his tongue in his cheek when he says that.

Mr. Childers

——and some of them in countries where the Government may be changing from year to year. The pattern is more or less common. There are one or two countries which seem to have a gift for avoiding excessive inflation. We are not one of them at this moment. We have had many debates on the character and origin of inflation. I think the House knows the position. It is true to say that, if we have not been able to adopt the concept that increases in incomes and prices should only be in accordance with the growth of production, we are, to say the least, in extremely good company. It so happens that our inflation was serious for ourselves in 1969 and 1970.

It is equally true to say that there are other countries in Europe—and I will not keep the House by elucidating the information—where their inflation in a particular year, such as 1970, has been extremely serious. That does not excuse us from not trying to get away from this infernal inflation. We ought to learn gradually the rules about inflation so that we can surpass other countries in an endeavour to avoid it.

That is the reason for the delay. The Government must consider the Budget as a whole, bearing in mind the inflation that will be known to every Deputy in the House. Every Deputy in the House will know that we have to consider the Budget as a whole and, in the context of the Budget, we are considering the contribution we can make towards the relief of rates. As the House knows already, in many of the rural counties the Government are paying 75 per cent of the total cost of the health services through the element of agricultural relief grant that applies to the cost of the health services in those counties.

In some of the cities and larger towns where a local rate is struck, it is quite evident that the figure is not 75 per cent. It is nearer 58 or 59 per cent of the total cost, as it was in the passing financial year. That is the position and all I can say is that I will promise the House that I will do my best to get this information through as soon as possible.