Dáil Éireann debate -
Wednesday, 31 Mar 1971

Vol. 252 No. 11

Committee on Finance. - Vote 41: Transport and Power (Resumed).

Debate resumed on the following motion:

That a supplementary sum not exceeding £10 be granted to defray the charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1971, for the salaries and expenses of the Office of the Minister for Transport and Power, including certain services administered by that Office, and for payment of sundry Grants-in-Aid.

—(Minister for Transport and Power.)

Mr. O'Donnell

Before I reported progress I had been referring to the situation that now exists eight or nine months after the Minister had come into this House last July and given an undertaking that the necessary action would be taken to overcome the difficulties which had then appeared in the tourist industry. It is an appalling situation and a completely indefensible one as far as the Minister is concerned. We find that instead of the improvement in Bord Fáilte, particularly in the marketing section, which the Minister had undertaken would be brought about, the situation, as we enter a new tourist season so far as Bord Fáilte is concerned, has deteriorated considerably. Without going into detail which would take a couple of hours, the sitution now is that instead of facing the problems which were there last summer and which should have been tackled in the early autumn in time to launch a realistic dynamic promotion and marketing campaign over the winter months we find that the marketing manager has resigned, several key marketing posts in the company have been left unfilled, staff morale is at its lowest and the industrial market research company which examined the internal set-up of Bord Fáilte have made some very drastic recommendations.

We find there are fewer British travel agents pushing Irish Ireland than ever before. The Hotel and Accommodation Directory for this year, the most important piece of promotion literature which should have been in the hands of travel agents last November or October, was not circulated until February. We also find the current issue of that directory has undergone drastic change and has been considerably reduced in size. I should like the Minister to explain why there was such delay in circulating the directory to travel agents. How does the Tourist Board expect travel agents to sell holidays in Ireland when they did not have the official accommodation directory available to them? What do these travel agents and tour operators abroad think of Ireland when they see this cheap, shoddy little book which we issued this year and which lacks the most basic information? It is not even related to the previous directory. How can tour operators and travel agents sell Ireland without this information? When they got the book it lacked most of the vital information. Despite the fact that the Minister wrote to me himself—I appreciate that he did so when I raised the matter at Question Time—and said there was no undue delay, I have a copy of a letter sent by Bord Fáilte to travel agents at the end of January apologising for the delay in circulating the hotel guide because of production difficulties. This is a very serious matter. We are only codding ourselves if we think we can sell Ireland abroad if our Tourist Board stoop to these slipshod, inefficient methods.

In addition, we find, particularly in Britain, that in the tourist markets abroad the State bodies other than Bord Fáilte which are engaged in tourism such as Aer Lingus, CIE, Shannon Free Airport Development Company and the B and I Line are in open, cut-throat competition with one another. There is intense rivalry and petty jealousy that should not exist. I am not making this allegation lightly. I had occasion to go to Britain at the end of January to investigate air services between Britain and France and particularly the decision to terminate the direct Manchester-Shannon Air Service. I spent six days investigating it. I have written a report of which I shall give a copy to the Minister later; I have already given it to some State bodies directly concerned. I want to quote one significant paragraph from it which says:

The picture that emerges from my investigations in Britain is one of where five State bodies using taxpayers' money and all having spent some money in making the Manchester-Shannon service viable, were unable to generate enough business to fill three aircraft per week. For me the worst aspect of this whole exercise——

that is my investigation——

was the way in which it revealed a total lack of co-operation between the five State bodies mentioned. I have been appalled at the way in which one tries to blame the other and at the rivalry and petty jealousy that exist. Indeed, the most difficult part of my entire investigation was to try to sift through the maze of contradictory statements and view-points from representatives of the different State bodies.

This is an appalling situation. In my opinion, the greatest problem for the Minister in regard to the tourist industry is to tackle this situation of the relationship between the various State bodies. The Minister's job would be very simple in regard to the tourist industry if he were dealing only with Bord Fáilte but in recent years other semi-State bodies have entered into the tourist business. Somebody will have to decide what the specific function of each of these bodies is to be. The situation in relation to Britain is disastrous. In reply to my question about the recent operation of tourist workshops in North America the Minister said that the result was satisfactory. I have met people who were there and I am pleased to acknowledge that that is so, but one comment I heard was that there is considerable duplication and lack of co-ordination between the efforts of semi-State bodies in North America as well.

Aer Lingus is not servicing the British tourist market. The policy of Aer Lingus so far as Britain and the Continent are concerned is that its services are geared to feeding the trans-Atlantic route. Because of modern technological developments and bigger and higher powered aircraft the long haul service is the one that pays; the short haul services are different propositions. No steps have been taken by the Minister to introduce realistic cross-Channel fares and no effort has been made by either Bord Fáilte or the six semi-State bodies operating in Britain to cater for the huge ethnic market there. There are an estimated four million people of Irish parentage in Great Britain and this vast market has been taken for granted by us down through the years. These unfortunate people are being fleeced by the shipping companies and the airlines. A constituent of mine returning to Limerick has to pay £31 10s to fly from London to Shannon. It must not be taken for granted that second and third generation Irish will spend their holidays at home. A scheme should be devised, and I see no reason why it could not be devised, to enable special travel concessions to be given to people returning home to stay with friends and relatives who do not need hotel accommodation. I have suggested this time and time again but fares continue to increase.

Two trainee nurses who are neighbours of mine returned home for three days at Christmas to visit their mother who had fallen ill. It cost them each £31 10s return air fare from London to Shannon and they also had their fare from the hospital to the airport and from Shannon Airport to the particular part of Limerick they were going to. Without fear of contradiction I can say that it cost those two girls £70 in travelling expenses alone. They could go to Spain for a fortnight all-in for the same price. These are hard facts and we have got to face up to them. There is no point in blaming the postal strike and the political situation in Northern Ireland. Neither the Tourist Board nor the semi-State bodies are doing their job in the British market. I am very enthusiastic about the future potential of the Irish tourist industry but I have a sence of frustration about what has been going on. The Minister will have to devise some system to ensure that the semi-State bodies will co-operate with the private interests engaged in the business in the British market.

I make no apologies for referring to the ethnic market in Britain. We should be ashamed of the way we have neglected our own kith and kin in Britain. The Most Reverend Dr. Harty, Bishop of Killaloe, pointed out some months ago that we are not pleading for any charity for these Irish people; it is very good business in the material sense to try to encourage as many Irish people to come home as possible. In most cases they are coming into villages and hamlets which would not normally see tourists and their money is as good as any other tourists' money.

Extra money has been voted for the advertising campaign which has recently been carried out. I have a breakdown of the advertising expenditure on the British market this year. I have the official advertising schedule from Bord Fáilte, but I will not say how or from whom I got it. In my opinion Bord Fáilte's advertising policy in Britain has been wrongly orientated. They have advertised in the Sunday Times colour supplement, the Observer colour supplement, the Daily Telegraph, the Guardian and the Radio Times. All this advertising has been concentrated on the upper market.

I have been to Britain on numerous occasions and I have engaged in the hard physical exercise of persuading tourists to come here for their holidays. I have arranged for them to come here and I have looked after them when they arrived. I believe Bord Fáilte's advertising policy is totally wrong. The theory behind advertising in such papers as the Sunday Times is that wealthy people read them and if they come here they will spend more money, but what we seem to forget is that with the abolition of the £50 travel allowance this type of tourist can go to any part of the world for his holiday. I am not advocating that the schedule should be changed completely and that no advertising should be done in this type of news media. I must say the colour advertising in the Sunday Times was beautiful and has been highly commented on, but the stark fact is that it is not achieving the results is should achieve.

A much higher proportion of our advertising in Britain should be directed to the mass circulation newspapers and to advertising on radio and television. To prove I am not talking through my hat in this I can show that this could be most effective. A very good friend of mine, a leading travel agent in Manchester, who brings on average 15,000 to 20,000 people into this country every year, took a full page in The Guardian and three half-minute slots on television this year by way of experiment. The television advertising cost £695. The Guardian advertisement cost £700. The expenditure was almost identical. What were the results? From The Guardian advertisetisement he got approximately 600 replies; for roughly the same expenditure on television he got 6,438 replies.

Dr. O'Donovan

That will not be in tomorrow's newspapers.

Mr. O'Donnell

The conversion ratio, the acid test, is 25 per cent as against 55 per cent. Far too much emphasis is placed on the high-class market. Out of our total advertising budget a relatively small fraction has been directed towards the 4,000,000 Irish living in Britain. A few paltry advertisements in the Sunday Post is the sum total of it. That is disgraceful. The result is British travel agents, with the exception of a few, are not interested in Ireland.

The work shop operation in North America was very successful and what the Minister told us today bears out the information I had. The prospects are good and I trust that market will go some way this year towards counteracting the fall in the British market.

Europe is a neglected market as far as we are concerned. The Continent offers us, after Britain, the best potential for tourism. Since the initiation of our application and negotiations for entry to the Common Market Ireland has become better known on the Continent. All the market surveys indicate that there is a tremendous potential market on the Continent for Irish tourism. What do we find?

In the light of the troubles we had to contend with in Britain and America last year one would have expected there would have been a special, intensive operation directed at the Continent of Europe. What do we find? We find the expenditure on marketing and promotion in Europe for 1970-71 is the same as it was for 1969-70.

There will have to be a complete rethinking of the whole future of Irish tourism and I sincerely hope that on the next occasion the Minister comes in here he will have something practical to tell us and that he will be able to report to the House that definite concrete steps have been taken, and drastic action, where necessary, with a complete reorganisation and restructuring of Bord Fáilte to ensure that a proper relationship will be arrived at between Bord Fáilte and other State bodies interested in tourism.

I have questioned the Minister recently about the problem in the British market and whether or not special steps should be taken. The Minister said today that other forms of publicity and promotional work in Britain will be carried on in the months ahead. Last week Mr. Boyd from Britain and Mr. Evans, a director of Bord Fáilte, spelled out publicly in the national press the difficult problem in the British tourist market. Both were of the opinion that this would be a difficult year; there would be a decline in traffic from Britain and some special effort would be needed.

At Question Time today I suggested to the Minister it might be a good idea to have an operation carried out in Britain similar to the operation in North America. Despite the lateness of the season, both promotionwise and publicitywise, I am convinced that a special drive in Britain just now would yield good results. I believe that Bord Fáilte, the other State bodies and even the Minister have fallen down very badly in that no special steps were taken to counteract the difficulties of the British postal strike. It should have been "action stations" and, when the strike was over, a special plan should have gone into operation and a special advertising and publicity campaign should have been mounted and all the available manpower from Bord Fáilte and elsewhere should have been sent into Britain to do a follow-up on the advertising. It would not have been difficult for the regional boards to organise groups of hoteliers and travel agents to go into Britain.

At this late stage a crash programme on the British market would pay dividends and I would be grateful if the Minister would give us some indication when he comes to reply of what he means by other forms of publicity and promotional work in the British market in the months ahead. It is not months ahead. It is tomorrow and next week. Months ahead will be too late for the 1971 season. I understand Bord Fáilte have recommended this special type of publicity campaing in Britain. They estimate it would cost £14,000 and they have not been able to get this £14,000.

Mr. B. Lenihan

That is a story. It is nonsense.

Mr. O'Donnell

In the light of what the director of Bord Fáilte said last week it is obvious that something must be done immediately. The proximity of Britain means it would not be difficult to organise a special drive in Britain. Unless this is done now we will have disappointing results in 1971 where the British market is concerned. The Minister has announced that the question of a national travel agency being set up is under consideration and even the possibility of purchasing an interest in Thomas Cook & Co., is being considered. I can see merit in the idea of having a national travel agency. My opinion is that, unless drastic and much more fundamental changes are made in Government policy in relation to the tourist industry, and in relation to Bord Fáilte and the other semi-State companies already in the business, a national travel agency, or the purchase of Cooks, will not produce a magic formula that will solve all our problems overnight. I hope that the report of whatever consultants have been engaged to examine the marketing of Irish tourism will be made public and that we will have an opportunity in the House of debating in depth the whole future of this most important national industry.

Dr. O'Donovan

I do not propose to follow Deputy O'Donnell's promotional effort on behalf of tourism. I will confine my remarks to the Supplementary Estimate itself but I want to ask the Minister a few questions, some of which he may feel bear only slightly on the Estimate. This is the first opportunity I have had to complain about the inclusion in the Transport Bill at present before the Seanad of the section regarding the examination of engine drivers. I want to complain about the trouble it has created for me. I understand that the Minister is reconsidering it and I am glad to hear that. It may have been purely accidental, but I do not mind admitting that I did not see the Bill.

Mr. B. Lenihan

It has to come here yet.

Dr. O'Donovan

I appreciate that. The Minister mentioned two cases of the employment of consultants in relation to transport. I am sufficiently old-fashioned not to believe in consultants at all, or almost at all. If you are lucky and if you get a break, you will get something from them. Various occupations used to be regarded as a bit outré at one time. The advertising industry was regarded as being not quite a respectable profession at one time. It is quite certain that the greatest crowd of charlatans ever to come together has been accumulated in the consultancy business. The Minister will say that he always gets the best. I take it that care is taken in the selection of consultants, but they cost a lot of money. I was told by one industrialist, a very shrewd man, indeed, that his costs were cut by 30 per cent after he employed a firm of consultants. He is a bacon curer. To have a proper consultancy set-up you must get together a most involved group of people. You want a full team of men who work well together. You want good cost accountants, a good work study man, a good mechanical engineer, and a whole list of people. This costs a very large amount of money indeed. I am not aware of any consultancy firm that has any such group of people permanently employed as a team on its own staff in this country. Obviously you want different types of consultants for different jobs. This is why we so often get them from across the Atlantic despite the enormous figure of £1,000 a week per man. That was the figure the last time I inquired and I suppose it is £1,500 per week per man now. They would want to be very good to justify that kind of expenditure. However, we will have an opportunity of talking about the B & I on another occasion so I will leave it at that.

I want to ask the Minister two fairly straight questions about the shortfall of £425,000 in Cork and Limerick. The figure in the Estimate is £1.466 million. That does not refer to Dublin. Therefore the shortfall is £425,000 out of £1½ million. Is it a shortfall of almost one-third. I want to ask the Minister a more important question. Year after year we have colossal expenditure on airports. We have infinitely more expenditure on them than we have on anything else except roads, and the expenditure on roads is paid for by the people who use them. Here we have £5 million estimated for construction work at airports including furniture and buildings. What rents does the State get from the air companies for what I call the "cosmopolis" out at Collinstown as it used to be called?

Mr. B. Lenihan

Aer Rianta, the Airport Authority, are making money on them.

Dr. O'Donovan

Obviously they are making money but the surplus was £420,000 and the capital expenditure for one year alone was £5 million.

Mr. B. Lenihan

That is only current. That is not management. That £425,000 has nothing to do with capital expenditure of £5 million which the Deputy is talking about.

Dr. O'Donovan

I am making the point that airports are extremely expensive.

Mr. B. Lenihan

That is true. There is no doubt about that.

Dr. O'Donovan

Do we get the accounts of Aer Rianta in detail showing the rents they get?

Mr. B. Lenihan

We do, yes.

Dr. O'Donovan

I will look it up myself. I want to say a few words about tourism. Deputy O'Donnell made a very good point and I agree with him when he said that the hotel booklet list was not readily available last year. Of course it is cheap. This is an important item for residents of this country. I take it that hundreds of thousands of copies must be produced. Why not produce one printed on expensive paper and sell it at a slightly higher price? I think you would get people to take it. As Deputy O'Donnell said, there was a fairly long period last year when you could not get a copy of it in most parts of the country. This affects tourist revenue inside the country. It was easier to buy a copy in a remote country town than in Dublin.

I am glad the Minister has set up the National Tourism Council and I hope it will achieve something. The Minister went on to talk about the current exceptional situation. This situation is only exceptional compared with two or three years ago. The fact is that it is a situation which we will have with us for a long time. I do not have to explain the various aspects of this. The Minister knows what I am speaking about. We were all aware of the efforts made by Bord Fáilte and they deserve credit. They made an effort to get over the effects of the postal strike in Britain. I am inclined to be critical of some of their operations so it is only fair to say that. The Minister mentioned the national economic growth. It might have been as well for him to have omitted reference to it. It is a myth at the moment. The only reason why there has not been a savage fall in the GNP during the past 12 months has been the increase of £100 million in the Government current expenditure and the increase of £50 million in Government capital expenditure. This must be paid for in future. Part of the current expenditure will have to be paid for in the future. This increase of £150 million between current and capital expenditure is over 10 per cent of the GNP. At the end of this suitably deflated calculation, by an inadequate index, we get a growth rate of 2 per cent. This is a joke. There has been no growth rate whatever in this country over the past 12 months. I suspect that the Minister knows that as well as I do. I do not blame the Minister for giving figures prepared by the Central Statistics Office, his own Department and the Department of Finance.

I want to say one critical thing about Bord Fáilte. I believe that Bord Fáilte were altogether too liberal in their approach to hotel grants in the west. I said this last year. Work was estimated at one price and carried out much more cheaply. I suspect that the people in Bord Fáilte believed that the Department of Finance was like an elderly wolfhound with no teeth whatever and that all they had to do was say "We want the money" and the Department of Finance would give it to them. It did not work out like that, not because the elderly wolfhound got its teeth back, but because the Government found they could not meet it. I know of one place where a man must be in serious difficulties. He was quite well off but his grant did not come to hand for a long period. I do not know whether he has got it yet or not. The assumption inherent in a great deal of official thinking was that there would never be a time like the 1950s again. I might end by saying that perhaps we will be very lucky if times are not worse than the 1950s.

Mr. B. Lenihan

I thank Deputy O'Donnell and Deputy Dr. O'Donovan for their constructive contributions. I could make a very wide-ranging reply on this aspect because of the many activities involved, but the nature of the debate has been, of necessity, truncated. I would like to deal with the tourist aspect, and point out the practical steps which we have taken to deal with what is a difficult situation, and one not of our making. I cannot emphasise enough the fact that it has been very difficult for the various agencies concerned in the tourist business—and they all have a part to play under the Bord Fáilte umbrella. It has been very difficult to push peaceful Ireland to people in Britain, Europe and North America in face of the publicity given to the unfortunate activities in the north-eastern part of Ireland. This is a basic fact of life. This is why Bord Fáilte have undertaken this special campaign which I inaugurated in conjunction with them over the winter and spring months to spend £400,000 on an intensified promotional campaign in Britain, Europe and North America to offset the ill-effects of this publicity. The Irish airlines have spent £4 million on worldwide publicity particularly in North America, Britain and Europe in order to ensure that their planes are as full as possible and that their targets are achieved in regard to the considerable growth expansion envisaged by them in passenger travel this year on the North Atlantic routes. CIE, through their carrier operation in connection with their tours and hotels, have done an intensified marketing drive in North America, Europe and Britain, as have SFADCO.

I should like to make the point that I have had numerous consultations with the various State bodies concerned with the tourist business and Bord Fáilte. I am concerned that there should not be overlapping of their activities on external markets. We have got together on this aspect and we are having consultation as to how best all these activities in the carrier and tourist business can be rationalised. There is a danger in going too far. I believe that a certain degree of competition is good because it keeps the executives and staffs on their toes and maintains drives and momentum in the organisations. If they were amalgamated into one organisation they might go "soft", in the business or selling sense. I would aim at a degree of competition between them but at the same time a rationalisation of their activities. This is what we are seeking to achieve and this is what consultants are at present examining, how best to ensure that there is an avoidance of undue overlapping, an avoidance of duplication, and at the same time to maintain the competitive edge on the part of their various executives who are fighting hard for visitors from markets abroad.

Mr. O'Donnell

Does the Minister agree with State companies being in competition with one another and with private enterprise for the same business?

Mr. B. Lenihan

This is what we are seeking to rationalise. Indeed, apart from the State bodies, I have also had consultations with the private interests, both here and abroad, who are concerned with bringing people to Ireland and I hope to have further discussions with the Irish travel trade here and further discussions with the travel trade in Britain, America and Europe, in regard to how best to have a degree of competition between all concerned, but certainly not overlapping, not duplicating and not, as Deputy O'Donnell says, looking for the same customer. This is what we must achieve and what I think will be achieved. As I said, I have had a number of discussions with both private and semi-State interests on this aspect.

Bord Fáilte are the overall umbrella providing the general promotional and advertising aspects and I should like to emphasise that we have given them this extra money to embark on this campaign this year; we have strengthened the board of Bord Fáilte by adding two people to it who have been successful in the tourist industry and we have set up a national tourist council representative of the various carriers, hotel and travel trade interests in order to ensure communication with Bord Fáilte. In addition, there has been a complete reorganisation of the management structure of the board and at the moment there is a review being carried out of their marketing activities. In general the board are concerned very much at present as to their future structure and role in the Irish tourist industry. Consultations are taking place at the moment with the other State-sponsored bodies as to how best to get down to positive product selling, whether a national travel agency is desirable or not, in what way the private industry might be brought in on such a development. These are all matters which are being considered at present. There may be need for a change in the role of Bord Fáilte. As I said, heretofore, they have been the umbrella organisation and there may be a need for more hardselling, person to person selling, of holidays here to travel agents, wholesalers, handlers and carriers, at the grass roots level, as it were, than the present Bord Fáilte promotion.

I think there is room for the two and that both go hand in hand. As I see the future, Bord Fáilte will provide the umbrella with the overall advertising and promotion and within that umbrella there would be various agencies, State and private, engaged in the hardselling. This to a degree is already done by Aer Lingus, by CIE through their tours organisations, by SFADCO and by private interests as well. I should like to see an intensification of that activity and how best to harmonise the overall global promotion work of Bord Fáilte with the person to person hardselling of the various organisations working within this umbrella.

There should be greater harmonisation of these activities and a greater unity of purpose between the organisations concerned, both public and private. Deputy O'Donnell referred to the fact that reports from the North American market are encouraging. This is true and all the reports we have from our airlines, from CIE, SFADCO and Bord Fáilte are encouraging. The British market is a problem. It has been tackled by Bord Fáilte in the past few months but there was an unfortunate synchronisation of the peak of their advertising and the mail strike. They took various steps to get out of that situation and I want to pay them a tribute for this. I think Deputy O'Donovan referred, inter alia, to it. It was just coming to the peak of the special advertising campaign and the British organisation of Bord Fáilte adjusted straight away to a telephone promotional campaign. They made special efforts via the telephone by communicating the telephone numbers of various Bord Fáilte offices to the trade generally in Britain, by advertising their telephone numbers and by making personal calls to various people in the tourist industry generally and to various Irish associations. An intensive telephone campaign was carried on when the strike broke and it held the situation which otherwise could have been very serious.

Mr. O'Donnell

Would the Minister comment on my point, to which I have referred on a number of occasions, about the ethnic market in Britain?

Mr. B. Lenihan

Again this is a matter to which Bord Fáilte have always paid attention.

Mr. O'Donnell

They have not. I disagree with the Minister.

Mr. B. Lenihan

I have discussed this matter with them and they do not think that anything further needs to be done in this direction. Generally as far as bringing people here is concerned it is to the non-ethnic market that we need to pay particular attention because as time goes on and as we have less emigration and fewer Irish people abroad, which is the pattern now developing—the airlines are very conscious of this, particularly on the North America market—it will be all important to reach out beyond the traditional Irish ethnic markets that heretofore have been very important, and will continue to be important. However, that slice of the tourist cake is not expanding as emigration decreases and the expanding slice is the non-ethnic market. Both the airlines and Bord Fáilte are very conscious of this and are seeking to reach outside the traditional Irish market and to attract people to come here who otherwise would not know anything about Ireland, who would have no connection with Ireland and who would have no reason for coming here. It is in that direction that real progress needs to be made in tourism. While I am not taking away from the traditional ethnic market, which will always continue to be important, taking the long-term view the real impact has to be made outside the ethnic market.

Mr. O'Donnell

Would the Minister not agree that second or third generation Irish people offer as good a potential market, that they are the most easily attracted section of the entire British market and their money is as good as that of the others?

Mr. B. Lenihan

That is not being neglected. I want to emphasise that that aspect of promotion is not being neglected but is being developed. But I am saying that in apportioning money for promotion one must bear in mind that to a growing extent in the years ahead there will be a need to encourage a higher proportion of people from outside the traditional Irish ethnic sources of supply. It would be a very grave mistake to pin the whole future of Irish tourism on the Irish ethnic market alone and the other aspect is the all-important, stable, long, term investment which will be the growing one in the future.

Deputy O'Donovan had some remarks to make about consultants and I agree with him to this extent, that consultants are necessary but one must know what one wants and where one is going when one hires consultants. Taking on consultants on the blind, as it were, is a mistake. Otherwise, you really do not make progress with them. But if one has an idea of how one is doing and knows what needs to be rectified and puts that to them and gives them a specific job to do, their second opinion can be of tremendous help, but only in that context. So long as they are pinned down to a specific job and asked, as it were, to offer a second opinion to bear out or not bear out what you think is the solution to the problem and to point out specific options in regard to specific problems, consultants can in that way be of help. We have had very practical success with them in the past 18 months. I have been very keen on introducing them to examine the operations of all State companies. We had them in the ESB and a very excellent reorganisation of the whole management structure of the ESB has taken place as a result of their recommendations. The reorganisation suggested by them could very easily have been suggested by me or my officials. The proposals were rather obvious in many ways in bringing a business-like management structure to the top of the ESB with proper delegation of responsibilities, but it was important to have an outside organisation to give a second opinion. This opinion accorded with our own views and the reorganised management structure has worked very well in the ESB and has helped enormously to reduce the tension that existed in the industrial relations side of that organisation.

Similarly we had consultants in the transportation field to rationalise the activities of B & I, British Railways and CIE with a view to sharing terminals and ships and operations across the Irish sea.

Mr. O'Donnell

We must be careful there also.

Mr. B. Lenihan

Again, we had a pretty good idea of what was needed. We knew it was futile to embark on a capital expansion programme where B & I could start building terminals side by side with British Railways and with CIE also coming in on the situation. We put this to the consultants who have now come up with recommendations bearing out our views and we are seeking to implement their recommendations with the co-operation of the three organisations I have mentioned.

Mr. O'Donnell

Would it be possible to have a copy of the consultants' report for Deputy O'Donovan and myself in relation to cross-Channel freight shipping? I do not think that report has been circulated.

Mr. B. Lenihan

We have not got that yet but we have had a preliminary report which has been published and which incorporates, more or less, what I have brought out, but we are waiting a more detailed report.

Mr. O'Donnell

And that will be available?

Mr. B. Lenihan

Yes. Similarly we are doing this type of exercise at present in regard to tourist travel arrangements and the various State companies and private interests involved. Another investigation of this kind is currently taking place in regard to CIE's internal transport situation. Again, we know the answers there to some extent but it is no harm to have them pointed out and have the options put before us. That report will also be available in regard to CIE. There are two stages and we hope to have one report very shortly and another within three months.

In regard to any of these consultants we set very stringent date lines for production of reports and recommendations. It is very important that we should always be alert to the performance of all our State companies. They are doing an excellent job but I see no point in Parliament being complacent about it. It is important that we should always act as a watchdog on behalf of the people we represent. Whoever is Minister for Transport and Power and charged with responsibility for these organisations which are concerned with very heavy capital expenditure, must be enternally vigilant. My main concern in having consultants in the past 18 months to look into the various organisations is to ensure that the organisations be kept on their toes and be able to see themselves with the help of these consultants and make an assessment of their present and future operations. In that way we can watch their performance. No matter what one thinks about consultants I think it makes good sense to keep State-sponsored organisations continually under this kind of review to ensure that what is done on our behalf by them is done with the greatest efficiency and with proper planning ahead so that the community gets the best value.

We shall have occasion in the coming months to debate much of this field on various measures of legislation. We shall have the Nuclear Energy Bill which has been passed by the Seanad and will come before the Dáil. On that measure we shall have full opportunity to discuss the whole future of power development in Ireland and development of resources for power generation. We shall have the Road Transport Bill which is now practically through the Seanad and which will give an opportunity for a comprehensive review of road transportation. Very shortly we shall have the B & I Bill. The First Stage has been moved and the Second Stage will be taken very shortly, and we can then discuss our whole sea transportation policy.

We shall also have an ESB Bill dealing with the whole future of rural electrification and plans to ensure proper financing of the ESB in this regard so that the whole rural electrification programme can be completed within the next five years.

Mr. O'Donnell

Will this be a special Bill apart from the Nuclear Energy Bill?

Mr. B. Lenihan

Yes. Deputy O'Donovan referred to our airports. The idea here is to separate the operation of our airports entirely from the airlines. This is already being done in Shannon, Cork and Dublin. We propose to introduce very shortly a National Airports Authority Bill putting all State airports under a single authority that will be charged to operate in a commercial manner independently of our airlines. It will deal with our own national airlines or any others on a purely commercial basis. I want to emphasise that it is important that this should be so because in the world of the future it may be necessary to have many airlines coming to many parts of Ireland. It is important as far as the State is concerned that the airports, with their facilities and amenities, should be under State control and separate management and have the responsibility of operating for our benefit while they have the benefit of the whole community and should be able to make their own commercial decisions as to what they should charge airlines, how to handle customers, provide the necessary amenities required in modern airports and also provide necessary revenue. The capital cost that Deputy O'Donovan referred to in regard to airport construction and renovation in the current year is quite acceptable. It is designed to provide the very facilities needed to cater for the sort of aircraft now coming in through our national airline and other airlines.

The new 747 has placed a tremendous strain on airport managements and airport personnel. This new runway development and passenger development has been necessitated by the dramatic transformation of aircraft technology which has led to the development of the Jumbo Jet. It is imperative to have a rapid through-put of passengers in order to ensure the maintenance of the business. This has led to exceptional capital development at our airports in the current year which we hope we will not need to repeat in the immediate years ahead.

Dr. O'Donovan

Let us hope it will be less than £1 million next year.

Mr. B. Lenihan

I can assure the Deputy it will. I want to thank the House for the contributions made and even though we have had a rather truncated debate, when the various Bills I have mentioned come before the House, there will be an opportunity to raise in detail all the issues that can be covered on a full Estimate debate.

Vote put and agreed to.