asked the Minister for Health if he will state the number of (a) persons, (b) heads of households other than insured persons and (c) insured persons in the middle income group.
Ceisteanna—Questions. Oral Answers. - Middle Income Group.
15.
As the Deputy will be aware, there is at present no national fixed income boundary between the lower and middle income groups for the purposes of determining entitlement to health services. In the circumstances it is not possible to give firm statistics under the headings referred to in the question. It is broadly estimated, however, that about 60 per cent of the population is the middle income group. The number of insured persons in that group would be about 600,000 while self-employed persons and those of independent means would probably be in the region of 170,000. Most of the latter would be heads of households.
The foregoing figures are on the basis of preliminary estimates and I give them with the qualification that more precise estimates at present in process of preparation may show a considerable variation from them.
I thank the Minister for the information he has given me but in view of the fact that the new health scheme, which the Minister for Finance announced, will come into operation on 1st October next, could the Minister explain how it is proposed to ensure that those who are in the middle income group will be paying a certain sum which, apparently, the Department have not yet decided, to make up a £2 million fund on 1st October if they do not now know or have only a hazy idea, as the Minister said, of the number actually involved in the group?
The people who have medical cards will not be required to contribute. That is one distinction one can make.
We know that already.
There is a fringe of people between the lower income group and the middle income group which is related to eligibility which varies throughout the country and so I cannot give any more precise estimate than I have given to the Deputy. A person who is not the holder of a medical card and who is under the income limit to be prescribed of £1,600 or £60 valuation will be required to pay contributions. I cannot make it any simpler for the Deputy.
I do not want the Minister to make it too simple; otherwise it might have a peculiar effect. We are not accustomed to that kind of thing. Does the Minister not agree that in view of the fact that it seems to be almost impossible to estimate or pick out the people who are in the so-called middle income group, nobody can estimate that the proceeds of an amount of £x multiplied by the number of those people would produce £2 million? That is what I would like to know. It is not the Minister who is responsible, I am quite sure.
This is an approximate calculation based on the figures I have given of the numbers of persons who will be paying. It is based on a rough estimate from the number of people who already go to hospital and who are listed in the various health authorities as having the right to hospital treatment under the middle income group. It is a rough estimate; I have just made that admission.
Surely the number of people from the group who go to hospital would bear no relation to the number of people in that so-called group? Is it not true that what has happened is that you have the sum of X and Y but do not know the value of either X or Y?
I think that when the scheme starts the Deputy will find the estimate was not very far out.