asked the Minister for Social Welfare (a) the actual level of expenditure in 1969-70 under each of the following headings and (b) what that expenditure would have been had the rates of benefit and assistance applicable in Northern Ireland been payable in the Republic in that year: (i) old age contributory pensions, (ii) widows' contributory pensions, (iii) unemployment benefit, (iv) disability benefit, (v) other social insurance benefits, (vi) non-contributory old age pensions, (vii) unemployment assistance, (viii) widows' and orphans' non-contributory pensions, (ix) home assistance, (x) children's allowances, (xi) rehabilitation and maintenance of disabled persons and persons suffering from infectious diseases, and (xii) occupational injuries benefits.
Ceisteanna—Questions. Oral Answers. - Social Welfare Services.
As the reply is in the form of a tabular statement I propose, with your permission, a Cheann Comhairle, to circulate it with the Official Report.
Following is the statement:
Expenditure in 1969-70
|
Service |
Actual Expenditure |
Estimated cost at Northern Ireland rates |
|
£ |
£ |
|
|
Old Age Contributory Pensions |
11,361,799 |
12,465,000 |
|
Widows' Contributory Pensions |
9,385,916 |
14,260,000 |
|
Unemployment Benefit |
8,128,649 |
11,420,000 |
|
Disability Benefit |
14,352,957 |
19,472,185 |
|
Other Social Insurance Benefits:— |
||
|
Orphans' Pensions |
43,653 |
40,000 |
|
Maternity Grants |
151,446 |
835,650 |
|
Maternity Allowances |
280,333 |
376,447 |
|
Marriage Grant |
96,827 |
—(a) |
|
Treatment Benefit |
764,314 |
—(a) |
|
Non-Contributory Old Age Pensions |
17,759,044 |
—(a) |
|
Unemployment Assistance |
6,695,356 |
—(a) |
|
Widows' and Orphans' Non-Contributory Pensions |
3,010,943 |
—(a) |
|
Home Assistance |
1,268,942 |
—(a) |
|
Children's Allowances |
13,852,392 |
32,000,000 |
|
Rehabilitation and maintenance of disabled persons and persons suffering from infections diseases |
(b) |
— |
|
Occupational Injuries Benefits |
1,050,783 |
1,361,000 |
(a) No corresponding scheme exists in Northern Ireland.
(b) The Minister for Social Welfare has no responsibility for the administration of these schemes.
Will the Minister state what is the total sum involved?
It is under quite a number of headings.
What is the total of all the headings?
The total is not given.
Could the Minister add them up?
There are about 12 different headings.
Yes. Would the Minister add the 12 figures?
The Deputy can do that when he gets the information.
Will the Minister not agree that there is totally inadequate provision made by the Government for the widows of this country if they are to retain the standard of living they were used to heretofore?
This is a statistical question.
Will the Minister——
Would the Deputy please resume his seat?
I am asking the Minister for Social Welfare who is responsible——
This playing to the gallery is totally out of order.
Is it out of order for the Ceann Comhairle to make that remark.
Is it proper that the Minister should evade giving an answer orally in the presence of the widows of Ireland who would like to know what the position is?
Could I ask the Minister to read out the figures so that I can add them if he is unable or unwilling to do so? Will the Minister read out the figures?
Will you not allow the question to be answered?
This question does not arise. This is a statistical question and the Minister has answered it. Question No. 16.
I have not got the answer to it.
I want to ask a supplementary.
How can supplementaries be put if the answer is not given?
Hear, hear. Could I have the answer?
The Minister has been asked for 12 different figures. If the Minister would facilitate the House by giving the 12 figures, we will do the simple arithmetic for him. Could he please give the figures?
We are waiting for the answer.
I have called Question No. 16.
My question was not down for written answer. It involves the giving of 12 figures. We have had answers in this House running for 20 minutes. Could I now have the answer to Question No. 15?
It is not a matter for the Chair. The Minister is entitled to give the reply in any form he wishes.
I will read out the figures quickly, if the Ceann Comhairle permits, although it is a tabular statement. The headings are: Service; Actual Expenditure; Estimated cost at Northern Ireland rates.
That is all we want.
Old age contributory pensions, actual expenditure, £11,361,799; estimated cost at Northern Ireland rates, £12,465,000. Widows' contributory pensions, £9,385,916; at Northern Ireland rates, £14,260,000.
For about half the population.
Unemployment benefit, here, £8,128,649; Northern Ireland, £11,420,000. Disability benefit, £14,352,957; Northern Ireland, £19,472,185.
Are you not ashamed?
Other social insurance benefits: orphans' pensions, actual expenditure, £43,653; at Northern Ireland rates, £40,000. Maternity grants, £151,446; Northern Ireland, £835,650.
Five times as much.
Maternity allowances, actual expenditure, £280,333; at Northern Ireland rates, £376,447. Marriage grants, actual, £96,827; Northern Ireland, none. Treatment benefit, £764,314; Northern Ireland, none. Non-contributory old age pensions, £17,759,044; Northern Ireland, none. Unemployment assistance, £6,695,356; Northern Ireland, none. Widows' and orphans' non-contributory pensions, £3,010,943; Northern Ireland, none. Home assistance, £1,268,942; Northern Ireland, none.
They do not need it.
Children's allowances, £13,852,392; Northern Ireland, £32,000,000.
Thirty-two million.
Occupational injuries benefits, £1,050,783; Northern Ireland, £1,361,000. You have very little to boast about when you add them up.
Is the Minister not ashamed?
For half the population it is almost double.
It is not as pleasing as you would like it to be.
16.
asked the Minister for Social Welfare what level of expenditure would be involved in the introduction of earnings related benefits in the Republic on the same lines as those in Northern Ireland.
It is estimated that the cost of a scheme of earnings related supplements to flat-rate disability and unemployment benefit on the same lines as those in Northern Ireland would be of the order of £6 million a year. I would emphasise that the estimate is very rough due to difficulties in relating sickness and unemployment experience to pay levels.
Could we start again? I cannot hear. I could not hear a word of that.
It is not my fault.
I am entitled to hear the answer.
It is not the Minister's fault.
The Minister has replied to the question.
He replied in a low voice during noise. Could I now have the answer? Will people please let us hear the answer?
He went at a gallop but he would not go to the country at a gallop.
I read out the figures of a tabular reply, something that has never been done in my experience in this House.
Could I have the figures in regard to Question No. 16?
Are you not ashamed of what you are doing to the widows of Ireland?
Order. Would Deputy L'Estrange please restrain himself?
I want to ask the Minister whether he will agree that the approximate total of the figures he gave is about £87 million.
I called Question No. 16 and the Minister has replied to it. We cannot go back to Question No. 15.
There is only half the population in Northern Ireland and therefore the figure the Minister gave us the other day saying it would cost only £50 million——
The Minister has replied to Question No. 16. We cannot go back to Question No. 15.
As nobody heard the answer I am taking it we did not have it.
That was the Deputy's fault.
Would the Minister answer my supplementary on Question No. 15 or give us the answer on No. 16 so that we can hear it?
If the Minister wishes to reply again to Question No. 16 we might make some progress.
I did reply to it.
What are the figures?
It is estimated that the cost of a scheme of earnings related supplements to flat-rate disability and unemployment benefit on the same lines as those in Northern Ireland would be of the order of £6 million a year. I would emphasise that the estimate is very rough due to difficulties in relating sickness and unemployment experience to pay levels.
This figure must necessarily be conjectural because we can never tell how many people may get sick in a particular year.
I will not hold the Minister to it.
17.
asked the Minister for Social Welfare the estimated cost of introducing in the Republic a scheme of supplementary benefits similar to that in Northern Ireland.
A scheme of supplementary benefits here similar to that in Northern Ireland would pre-suppose the existence of a comprehensive social insurance scheme here on the lines of that in Northern Ireland. As this is not the case, it would not be possible, and indeed it would be unrealistic, to attempt to estimate the cost of what would be, in effect, only a supplement to such a scheme.
Could the Minister tell us, since he is unable to estimate the cost of this, how he arrived at his figure of £50 million as the cost of raising our social welfare benefits including this benefit, to the level in Northern Ireland?
I gave the figures and, if they are examined, the Deputy will find I am as correct as I was in the estimate I gave before.
But how can I find out? If the Minister himself does not know the answer to this, which is an integral part of the £50 million, how does he arrive at £50 million?
It is an estimate.
Would the Minister give us the estimate he made in relation to this particular item in order to arrive at his £50 million?
I am calling Question No. 18. We cannot debate this question all evening.
Any figure I give must be an estimate.
Yes. Good. Would the Minister say what estimate he used in reference to this particular matter in arriving at his figure of £50 million?
The figures I gave the Deputy in the answer.
But the Minister has not given any figures in reply to this question.
I gave the Deputy the figures in reply to a question yesterday.
Now there can be no cross-examination. I have called Question No. 18.
Would the Chair agree the Minister has not given any figures in reply to this question and he now tells me that the answer to this question is the figure he gave? Where do I go from there?
Order.
Is the Minister prepared to stand up like a man and give us the answer?
We cannot have a debate on this.
He must know what figure he used. Is it a State secret? Is it covered by the Official Secrets Act?
If Deputy FitzGerald would obey the Chair we might get Deputy Desmond's supplementary question.
Might I ask the Minister why, with the actuaries and staff available to him in the Department of Social Welfare, and the staff available to him in the Economic and Social Research Institute and in the Department of Finance, he is incapable of arriving at a figure in the light of the known cost of the supplementary benefit system in Northern Ireland at a projection of a comparable figure for the Republic? Does the Minister seriously suggest that it is not possible in his Department to arrive at a projected figure, remembering that he assured us last week that the differential was, in fact, in the region of £50 million? Would the Minister please examine his brief?
I gave an answer to the specific question last week and, if the Deputy likes to look back at it, he will find it is correct.
How can we?
What the Deputy is asking is what would be the supplementary benefit cost of a scheme we have not got.
Exactly, and which they have in Northern Ireland.
That is a different question altogether.
I am calling Question No. 18.
Is the Minister aware of the cost of the supplementary benefit system in Northern Ireland?
I am.
And is the Minister aware that the population of the Republic is roughly twice that of Northern Ireland and, on a very crude projection, one has merely to double the figure to arrive at the rough cost?
Not necessarily.
What is the figure in Northern Ireland?
I have no objection to the Deputy carrying out that exercise if he wants to do what Deputies are seeking to do, namely, to show that we cannot afford to pay benefits similar to the benefits being paid in Northern Ireland. If that is the Deputy's ambition, he is welcome to do that exercise.
What is the Northern Ireland figure?
As the Minister for Health said a moment ago——
The Minister for Lands.
Order.
Would the Minister tell us what is the figure in Northern Ireland?
I am calling Question No. 18.
Would the Minister tell us——
Would the Deputy please sit down?
It is a relevant question.
Order. Question No. 18.
Would the Minister give us the Northern Ireland figure? He is afraid to do so.
Order. Question No. 18.
18.
asked the Minister for Social Welfare (a) the amount spent on school meals and milk in the Republic in 1969-70; and (b) what the cost for that year would have been if these provisions had been on the same scale as in Northern Ireland.
The figures are (a) £259,000 and (b) in the region of £6,000,000. The figure at (b) is arrived at on the assumption that the service would be applied in all areas here and not only in urban and Gaeltacht areas as at present.
So their scheme costs 24 times as much for half the population. It is therefore 48 times better than ours. Is that a fair calculation?
I do not know if it is as good at all, but it does cost more.