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Dáil Éireann debate -
Wednesday, 17 Nov 1971

Vol. 256 No. 12

Committee on Finance. - Landlord and Tenant (Amendment) Bill, 1971 [Seanad]: Second Stage.

I move: "That the Bill be now read a Second Time."

This Bill arises from recommendations that have been made by the Landlord and Tenant Commission. In fact, it is only the first instalment of the legislation which will result from the work of the commission. The commission were appointed in January, 1966, and their terms of reference cover the whole law of landlord and tenant with the exception of the rent restrictions code. All the recommendations that have been made by the commission in the two reports which they have furnished to-date have been accepted by the Government subject only to relatively minor amendments. This acceptance involves the promotion of legislation to make considerable changes in the Landlord and Tenant Acts of 1931, 1958 and 1967. A comprehensive Bill dealing with these changes is being prepared. This Bill —the Landlord and Tenant Bill, 1970 —was introduced in Dáil Éireann last December by way of long and short titles. It will be a substantial and complicated piece of legislation involving the repeal and the re-enactment, with amendments, of the Acts of 1931, 1958 and 1967. This present Bill will also be absorbed in the comprehensive Bill. The text of the comprehensive Bill has yet to be finally settled. Meanwhile, because a certain urgency attaches to some of the changes in the law recommended by the commission, the Government decided to introduce this present Bill.

As was indicated in the explanatory memorandum which was circulated to Deputies when the Bill was introduced in Seanad Éireann last August, the Bill deals with three matters. These are— first, the grant of sporting leases, secondly, the grant of renewal rights and of the right to purchase the fee simple to tenants holding under a certain type of pre-1931 lease and thirdly, a necessary amendment of section 10 of the Rent Restrictions (Amendment) Act, 1967. The proposed amendment of section 10 of the 1967 Act does not stem from the recommendations of the Landlord and Tenant Commission. The section is, however, defective as it stands and it is desirable to amend it as soon as possible.

The proposals that concern sports clubs are, of course, the most important. What is being proposed is that outdoor sports clubs should in certain circumstances have the right to a 99-year lease. This proposal is based on a recommendation of the Landlord and Tenant Commission and it is designed to deal with a problem of considerable urgency. Lands used for sporting purposes, such as golf courses and football grounds, are usually situated close to cities or towns. The demand for land for development of one kind or another means that in many cases these lands have acquired a greatly enhanced value in recent years. As a consequence, it is only natural that landlords should, in cases where the tenancy of a club has expired or is about to expire, be increasingly tempted to refuse to grant a new tenancy to the club and to hand over the land for purposes of development. Under existing law, a sports club normally has no right to obtain a new tenancy from its landlord. Unless the law is changed, therefore, it is likely that many clubs will simply disappear. The Government recognise, just as the commission do in their report, that facilities for outdoor sports confer important benefits on the community. We recognise also that any loss of these facilities could well be irretrievable since clubs, once dispossessed, are most unlikely to be able to provide themselves with fresh sportsgrounds, at least where the larger centers of population are concerned. We believe that action must be taken now if these facilities are, as far as possible, to be preserved. The Government have therefore decided to promote this legislation.

The solution proposed by the commission, and which the Government have accepted with certain amendments, is that where a club uses land for outdoor sport or recreation and where it satisfies certain conditions it should be given a right approximating to the right to a reversionary lease under the Landlord and Tenant (Reversionary Leases) Act, 1958. The conditions to be satisfied are designed to ensure that only clubs that have a genuine claim will stand to benefit. Broadly speaking, the proposals in the Bill are that the validity of a club's claim should be tested in two ways. The first relates to the term of its lease, or, if it does not hold under a lease, the lenth of time it has held the land. The second relates to the club's investment in the land. The club must have expended a reasonable sum in developing or adapting the land so as to render it more suitable for the purpose of the sport—for instance, on club buildings, drainage, the levelling of the land and so on.

The Bill modifies the recommendation of the commission in a number of ways. As regards the length of time, the qualifying period recommended by the commission has been reduced from 25 to 21 years. The Bill proposes that a club should qualify in this respect if it has been in continuous occupation or possession for the purpose of the sport for 21 years prior to its application for the lease or if it holds the land for that purpose under a lease the term of which is not less than 21 years. Furthermore, the Bill proposes that continuous possession for the purpose of sport for the necessary period will suffice. That is to say, a club is not necessarily being required to show that it had a formal tenancy or series of tenancies during the qualifying period. Provision is also being made to clarify the position where the land is not used solely by the sports club—for instance, where the landlord has retained grazing rights. In such a case, it is being provided that user of the land for the purposes of sport must be the primary user, if the club is to benefit. The Bill again modifies the commission's recommendation in relation to the minimum sum that has to be spent on development of the land or on buildings. The commission recommended that the club's expenditure in this regard should be not less than 15 times the amount of the yearly rent. The Bill follows this recommendation as far as it goes but it proposes also that the amount must be at least £1,000. On the other hand, the Bill does not include a condition which was recommended by the commission, namely, that there should be permanent buildings on the land which are used in connection with the land for the purpose of the sport although the Bill does allow the expenditure requirement to be met in whole or in part by expenditure by the club on permanent buildings provided those buildings are used in connection with the sport. In section 2 (3) of the Bill, special provision is being made for a situation where a subsidiary portion of the land used for sport does not fulfil all the conditions required to attract the right to a new tenancy but the major portion does or is freehold. In order to preserve the club as a going concern in such a case, the Bill proposes to ease the conditions to enable the club to obtain a lease of the subsidiary land. The proposed conditions require the club either to have a lease of the subsidiary land for a term of not less than 12 years or to show that it has been in continuous occupation or possession of that land for at least 12 years. A further condition is that the subsidiary land does not amount to more than one-fourth of the total area of land which the club uses for sport.

The Bill also modifies the recommendations of the commission in relation to the terms on which the new lease—which is called a "sporting lease" in the Bill—is to be granted. The commission recommended that the new lease should approximate to a reversionary lease granted under the Landlord and Tenant (Reversionary Leases) Act, 1958, that is, a lease for a 99-year term at a ground rent. The most important modification of the 1958 Act provisions that they recommended was that the rent should be subject to review at 33-year intervals at the option of the lessor. This modification was reflected in the Bill as introduced in Seanad Éireann. However, I accepted the general view of the Seanad that 33 years was too great an interval between reviews of the rent and section 5 (3) (a) of the Bill now provides for reviews of the rent at 25-year intervals. That means that the lessor can now procure reviews of the rent on three occasions during the term of the lease, instead of two as the commission recommended. While the Bill gives effect to the other variations of the 1958 Act provisions that the commission recommended, it does not follow the recommendations of the commission in regard to the method of fixing the rent in a sporting lease. If the Act of 1958, as amended by the Landlord and Tenant (Ground Rents) Act, 1967, were to be applied to sporting leases, as the commission recommended, the rent would be fixed at one-eighth of the "gross rent", that is, one-eighth of the national open-market rent. This is the formula which has evolved over the years for determining the ground rent of built-on land, but I think it is clear that it is a formula that reflects the fact that much the greater part of the value derives from the buildings rather than from the land itself. It would, in my view, be inappropriate to apply this formula in the case of a sports club where the land itself rather than the clubhouse or other building normally constitutes by far the more valuable element. Accordingly, the Bill proposes that the club should be required to pay a fair rent, just as they would have had to pay if there had been no danger of clubs being refused new tenancies because of encroaching urban development and no need for this Bill at all. Accordingly, section 6 provides that, where the rent in a sporting lease has to be determined by the court—because the parties concerned have failed to agree—the court shall fix a fair rent. This section also provides guidelines for the court in the determination of a fair rent.

While on the subject of sporting leases, I think I should mention also the provision relating to compensation for disturbance. Subsection (3) of section 4 provides that the compensation provisions of the 1958 Act shall apply in a case where a sports club that is otherwise entitled to a sporting lease fails to obtain one because the landlord or any superior landlord is able to satisfy the court on a number of specific points. One of these points is that he requires the land for development and has obtained planing permission, and another is that it is reasonable that a sporting lease should be refused. The application of the compensation provisions of the 1958 Act means that compensation will be measured in accordance with the court's opinion of the extent of the loss suffered by the sports club as a direct consequence of the refusal of the sporting lease.

The only remaining matter that I believe I should mention at this stage in connection with sporting leases concerns the proposals contained in subsection (7) of section 2. This subsection proposes that the provisions relating to sports clubs shall operate from 3rd March, 1970. This was the date of a public announcement of the Government's decision, which had been taken that day, to frame legislation in relation to sports clubs on the general lines of the recommendations contained in the Second Report of the Landlord and Tenant Commission. The official statement of that day, which was released through the Government information Bureau, stated that it was proposed that the benefits accruing under the legislation would operate from the same day. The statement was published at the time so that all those who might be affected would be aware of what was intended and thus enabled to negotiate in the knowledge of the proposed changes in the law.

The second matter with which the Bill is concerned is dealt with in sections 8 and 9. This matter is of particular concern to certain tenants in Sandycove, County Dublin, and to others holding in similar circumstances. Section 8 is a replacement for section 10 of the Reversionary Leases Act of 1958. It extends the right to a reversionary lease under the 1958 Act, and consequentially the right to acquire the fee simple under the Ground Rents Act of 1967, to a new class of tenants who hold under a certain type of pre-1931 lease. These tenants did not qualify for such rights under the Acts of 1958 and 1967 because their houses, although built by the original lessees under what would nowadays be called building leases, reverted to the landlord when the original leases came to an end. The landlord subsequently granted new leases to persons who had no entitlement to the lessee's interest under the old lease. Consequently, when these new leases in turn began to run out the tenants who held them, since they were not the successors of the original lessees, had no right to a renewal under the 1958 Act. The Landlord and Tenant Commission in their Second Report have recommended that the right to a reversionary lease under the Act of 1958, together with the right to acquire the fee simple under the Act of 1967, should be extended to the tenants in question. They also recommended that, in line with similar provisions in the 1958 and 1967 Acts, these rights should be available for a limited period to those lessees whose leases expired up to five years prior to the amending legislation provided the lessee under the expired lease was still in possession of the property, that he had not entered into a new arrangement with the landlord and that no other person was entitled to a reversionary lease of the property. The proposals in section 9, which concern lessees whose leases have already expired and which, as I have said follow similar provisions in the 1958 and 1967 Acts, concern particularly certain tenants in Sandycove. The situation of the Sandycove tenants whose leases have expired is what gives urgency to these proposals and it is the reason for their inclusion in the present Bill.

Apart from provisions based on the recommendations of the Landlord and Tenant Commission the Bill deals with one final matter, that is, an amendment of section 10 of the Rent Restrictions Act of 1967 to remedy a defect in that section. In accordance with section 10 of that Act the tenant of a rent-controlled dwelling must, generally speaking, have the landlord's written consent to an assignment of the dwelling. This provision has had an in advertent result in the case of those dwellings that technically come under the Rent Acts but are held on long leases. The application of the Rent Restrictions Acts—which involves the control of rents together with protection of possession—was extended by section 2 of the 1967 Rent Act to owner-occupier dwellings. These are dwellings whose occupiers hold under leases for terms of more than 21 years. The extension in 1967 of the application of the Rent Acts to owner-occupied dwellings was necessary for the protection of lessees, mainly certain owner-occupiers in Sandycove— the same people with which sections 8 and 9 of the Bill are concerned— who had no protection in regard either to security of possession or the level of rent once their existing leases expired. One of the consequences of the application of the Rent Acts was, however, as I have mentioned, that the tenant's right to assign his interest is restricted. This means that the owner-occupier of a dwelling held on a long lease and coming under the Rent Acts cannot make a valid assignment of his property without the landlord's consent. There are certain circumstances where this restriction does not apply, namely, where the dwelling is used in part for business purposes, where the lease expressly authorises assignment without consent or where the assignment is to a bona fide resident member of the tenant's family. An assignment made without the landlord's consent, where such consent is required, is void. Section 10 of the Bill is designed to rectify the matter, with effect from the passing of the 1967 Rent Act, and to validate any assignments that may be void solely by reason of section 10 of that Act.

I trust that the Bill will meet with the approval of the House. It is, as I have said, only the first instalment of a considerable body of legislation that arises from recommendations made by the Landlord and Tenant Commission. Before I conclude, I should like to take this opportunity to express on my own behalf and on behalf of the Government our thanks for the very valuable work which the members of the commission have done and continue to do.

(Cavan): The Minister has told us that a comprehensive Bill dealing with the landlord and tenant code and codifying, so to speak, the Acts of 1931, 1958 and 1967, will be circulated in the future. He has not told us when exactly he hopes to circulate this Bill. It was introduced last year and my own opinion is that it is long overdue.

The landlord and tenant law is a highly complicated code. It is set out in very technical Acts that have been amended from time to time and it is no exaggeration to say that general practitioners in the legal profession find it difficult to follow the implications of these Acts and that apart from specialists, very few people are really familiar with the complicated landlord and tenant law as we have it. I think the Minister said that he was endeavouring to ensure that the new Bill he is introducing will be as simple as possible and that the sections will be easy to follow. That would be welcomed by the public generally as well as by the legal profession.

Landlord and tenant law is a branch of the law which affects a great number of people and it can be viewed from two points of view. It can be viewed from the point of view of the landlord on the one hand who relies on it as a source of income, and from the point of view of the tenant on the other hand who occupies property as a dwelling or as a place of business. There are strong arguments on either side. I am of the opinion, and I have been strongly of the opinion for some time that the trend should be to enable tenants in occupation, lessees in occupation, to buy out the landlord's interest, to purchase the fee simple interest, on reasonable terms.

Our landlord and tenant code refers to building leases and reversionary leases and it is very hard to fit it into the various categories. In conferring a right on a tenant or lessee to purchase the interest, regard should be had to the age of the building. Regard should be had to the length of time for which it has been let, and regard should be had to the amount paid for the property by the lessor. That is not taken into account at present, I think. It is interesting to note that that feature appears in this Bill. So far as I know, this is the first time that such a yard-stick for fixing the rent has been introduced into legislation.

Where a lessor or his predecessor has not been in possession of property or buildings for 50 years or upwards, and many of them have not been in occupation for much longer than that, and have not spent any money on it, and where that property has been maintained and improved and insured by the tenant, the tenant should be given the opportunity as of right to buy out the fee simple interest in that property on reasonable terms. One of the considerations to be taken into account should be the cost of that property to the landlord when it was built or when it was bought by him. In doing that no injustice would be created against the landlord.

It is in the national interest that as many people as possible should own the building in which they live or work because, if they own those buildings, they will be more likely to spend money on them, to keep them in proper repair, and to decorate them. The general overall picture would be that our towns would look better and be more attractive, and that property would be kept in better condition. That is all I want to say in a general way about the landlord and tenant code.

I do not think we are moving fast enough towards conferring a right of purchase. Although there is a trend in that direction, I do not think we are moving fast enough especially in regard to property which has been out of the possession of the landlord for a great number of years or, in fact, in cases where it has never been in the possession of the landlord.

This is a piecemeal effort, as the Minister has said, to deal with matters requiring urgent attention. The first provision in the Bill confers on sporting clubs the right to retain possession of land used for sporting purposes. It is right that that provision is being introduced. It is correct that sporting clubs should have fixity of tenure on reasonable terms. Otherwise, as the Minister said, with the increasing value of land in urban areas, or in areas adjacent to towns, the probability is that sporting clubs will be ejected and the land used for other purposes. Around the city of Dublin there is a trend towards race courses being sold and the land used for development because the value of land has increased enormously and because land is becoming scarce in the vicinity of cities and large towns. So far as this provision is concerned to give leases for 99 years to sporting clubs that have been in occupation for 21 years, I think, it is reasonable.

It is right, too, that the Minister should go further, as he has done, and give them a right to acquire the lease of land rented by sporting clubs subsequent to the original lease or the parent lease and used for a shorter time. Occupiers of this type of land will qulify for a new lease if they have been in occupation for 12 years. That is reasonable because golf clubs and other sporting clubs have increased the area of land used by them over the years. If that provision were not in the Bill there could be a situation in which a sports club could get a lease for portion of the land occupied by them, and could not get a lease for the rest of the land. The point was raised in the Seanad that the figure should be ten years instead of 12 years. I suppose there has to be a beginning and an end some place and by and large 12 years is not altogether unreasonable.

I also agree that it was right not to follow the recommendation of the commission in regard to the fixing of rent for this type of land and that one-eighth of the market rent would not be reasonable in this case. The argument put forward by the Minister is rather sound, that in the reversionary lease, under the landlord and tenant code, buildings were the important things, the valuable things, that the buildings had not been put there by the lessor but by the lessee. Here it is different. It is the land which is valuable.

In section 6 it is stated that the rent to be fixed by the court, if the court has to fix the rent, is to be the fair rent. The section does not stop there. It goes on to set out all sorts of guidelines and, if my reading of these guidelines is correct, each and every one is weighted in favour of the sporting clubs. Subsection (2) provides:

In fixing the rent the court shall have regard to the general intention of this Act in relation to sports clubs which is the advancement of outdoor sports, games and recreations and the preservation of open spaces for the common good and, without prejudice to such other considerations as it considers relevant, may take into account the rent or other sum previously paid for the property by the sports club and any covenants and conditions under which it was so paid, to the rent paid by other sports clubs of the same kind in the same or comparable locality, to the contribution made by the sports club to the enhancement of the property, and to the price paid by any person who is a necessary party to the granting of the lease in the acquisition of his estate or interest.

This is the provision I mentioned earlier. The provision in relation to taking into account the amount paid by the lessor would be very relevant if the lessor had acquired the property within the past few years when it was subject to the tenancy in favour of the sports club but I think that all those guidelines there are weighted against the owner of the land and in favour of the sports club. It looks to me as if the court is being invited to fix a low rent because the land is being used for the advancement of outdoor sports, games, recreation and the preservation of open spaces.

The rent fixed in these cases should be a fair rent and I would invite the Minister on Committee Stage to put another guideline in there, a guideline which would enable the courts to have regard to the financial position of the sports club or the members of the sports club. I do not think that is unreasonable. You could have a very wealthy sports club who would be in a position to pay a market rent or a fair rent. That is something that the court should be entitled to take into account. You could have a sports club whose members were comparatively well off people who could afford to increase their subscription and in those circumstances it would not be reasonable that the owner of the land should subsidise the club. Rather, the club members should increase the subscription in order to pay a reasonable rent. On the other hand, you could have a struggling football club or some other club that was not wealthy or whose members were not wealthy and which was catering for a different section of the community, a section not so well off, and that is something that should be taken into consideration. In making this suggestion to the Minister I am not breaking any new ground because another section of an Act that I will be speaking about in a few minutes already enables the court to take into account the financial circumstances of the landlord and of the tenant in fixing a rent under section 4 of the Rent Restrictions Act, 1967, which was in force for only two years.

I was glad to see powers being given to the court to insert a covenant providing for the termination of the lease should the property cease to be used for sports purposes because many abuses could arise where a lease would be got under this section and then the sports club might fold up and the property pass to one of its members or to somebody else and be used for commercial purposes. It is right that that provision should be inserted.

The next matter covered by the Bill is the renewal of leases which have fallen between two stools, with particular reference to the Sandycove area of Dublin and the Proby estate. This is something that might be dealt with in more detail on Committee. Something is being done in this Bill to improve the situation and to improve the lot of the tenants but I understand that sufficient is not being done. Deputy Cosgrave is much more familiar with this problem than I am and I understand he may deal with it. These tenants complain that they have been deprived of the right to purchase the fee simple interest in this property because they were compelled to renew their leases at rents which exceeded the poor law valuation and were, therefore, disqualified from the right to purchase the fee simple interest.

It is generally accepted—I am speaking in a general way—that there is a severe hardship on the tenants on this estate, the Proby estate, that advantage has been taken of them and that the landlords took advantage of technicalities in the law which enabled them to exploit the tenants and to deprive the tenants of rights which it was intended that they should have. I understand that this Bill does not go far enough to completely cure that situation and I would ask the Minister to listen carefully to arguments which will be put forward and to go the whole hog and put an end to this.

The next point covered by the Bill is the amendment of section 10 of the Rent Restrictions Act, 1967, which really had results which were never intended by the framers of the section or by this House. As Senator O'Higgins said in the Seanad, the members of the legal profession took the bull by the horns and ignored that particular section and proceeded as if it were not there. I am glad that the Minister now confirms the action of thelegal profession and that he has made this section retrospective.

I suppose it is unusual to hear someone from these benches or, indeed, someone from the Opposition side of the House approving of retrospective legislation. I want to go on record as saying that, in general, I am utterly opposed to retrospection in legislation but there is a difference here because this is simply to cure a mistake which this House made on a previous occasion and to re-enact the law as it was intended it should be in 1967.

There is one matter that I am sorry has been left out of this Bill although it is not strictly relevant to it. The Minister might have availed of this Bill to amend or re-enact section 4 of the Rent Restrictions (Amendment) Act, 1967, just as he availed of this Bill to amend section 10 of the same Act. Section 4 of the Rent Restrictions (Amendment) Act, 1967, enabled the landlords of short tenancies, weekly tenancies, et cetera, to have the rent of those tenancies revised and revised on very fair terms. That is the section I spoke about a few minutes ago. I shall not read it in detail; it is a long section. That section has written into it that the court shall take into consideration in revising the rent the circumstances of the landlord, the circumstances of the tenant and shall proceed on the basis that hardship will not be worked on either party. But, the very last two lines of that section—subsection (3) of section 4 of the Rent Restrictions (Amendment) Act, 1967— say that no applications shall be made under section 8 of the principal Act after the expiration of two years from the passing of the Act.

From memory, I think that was the 9th May, 1969, and that slipped the attention of many people who wished to have their rents adjusted one way or the other, and I understood from the Minister that the intention was to re-enact that section for a further period; as a matter of fact, when I saw an amendment of section 10 of the Act of 1967 I thought for a moment this was the section we were dealing with, but it is not. I think the Minister should have dealt with that section in this Bill. It would be just as relevant to deal with section 4 as it was to deal with section 10.

As the Minister said, this Bill is another example of how Bills like this can be introduced in the Seanad and dealt with there in a very constructive way. This Bill was introduced in the Seanad and got a very full reading there, but the Minister's approach to this was somewhat different from his approach to the Courts Bill. He had his mind more or less made up about this Bill, and I do not think many amendments, if any, were made to it in the Seanad. At any rate, it got a full, constructive, intelligent reading and debate there, and on that account it will not take so long to deal with it here.

I should like to join with the Minister in his word of thanks to Judge Conroy and the other members of the Landlord and Tenant Commission for the work they are doing, for the patience they are showing and the reports they are bringing in. We propose to give the Minister the Second Reading of this Bill.

I should like to support what Deputy Fitzpatrick has said about the terms of the Bill and to join with him and with the Minister in complimenting the commission under the chairmanship of Judge Conroy for the manner in which they have considered the very complex aspects of laws that affect a great many people. Some of us who had occasion, one way or another, to appear before the commission on behalf of constituents who were intimately concerned with the problem, appreciate the amount of time and attention given, and indeed, the generous way in which the commission listened to the various matters that were brought before them. They endeavoured to give a full and fair hearing to everyone who wished to make representations. The Bill, as the Minister said, is an interim part of a much more extensive proposal to amend the Landlord and Tenant Laws, but urgent problems have arisen which have been the subject of concern to a number of people in certain respects, as a result of which this measure has been brought forward.

There is a general welcome for the proposal in respect of sports grounds and sports clubs. This, I suppose, in the main applies to golf courses, football grounds and sports clubs of that character. Deputy Fitzpatrick, however, did refer to another aspect of it which may not involve a very large number of cases but which might well be the subject of some investigation. So far as Dublin is concerned, up to the moment there are three race courses here: one of them is now the property of the Racing Board, Leopardstown, and will continue to be used and has been very greatly developed as a permanent race course. However, there are places where race courses may no longer be available for one reason or another. The general question of sporting amenities of this character might be considered, because, as the Minister said in the course of his introductory speech, if property is once developed it is impossible to restore it to its former use. This aspect of the matter and the need for sporting facilities in areas adjacent to both cities and towns might require further investigation. The work which the commission did on this aspect of the matter showed a considerable amount of enlightened thought. I know they received many representations from sporting clubs on the matter and gave it very full consideration.

The other aspect of this that I am particularly interested in is the proposal to deal with a matter concerning certain tenants in Sandycove, County Dublin. Sandycove, Dún Laoghaire, is in my own constituency and I am very familiar with the problem which has agitated the minds of a number of tenants there of the Proby Estate. This has been the subject of discussions in this House both by way of debate and Parliamentary Questions, and was the subject of strong representations by the tenants themselves to the Landlord and Tenant Commission. This indicates that the landlord concerned, and his representatives, had full knowledge of the situation as it existed, and that in fact, while the Landlord and Tenant Commission were sitting and considering this problem steps were taken, and successfully taken, to coerce some tenants to enter into arrangements with the landlord under exorbitant terms.

It is not necessary on this occasion to go into the whole history of this matter, but I think it is generally known that the manner in which these estates were acquired a very long time ago does not in any way entitle the successors of those who acquired these estates to deal in the arbitrary and dictatorial manner in which the successors in title have attempted, and successfully so in certain specific cases, with tenants and occupiers of houses.

As Deputy Fitzpatrick rightly pointed out, the position here arises because of the complicated problem of building leases and reversionary leases. The 1931 Act did not cover these cases. Apparently in certain respects, neither did the 1958 Act nor the 1967 Act cover them either. I know that the Minister has received representations from the tenants concerned and has got details of the specific cases. It is not necessary to name the persons concerned. I will outline the details briefly.

While the Landlord and Tenant Commission were considering this matter, proceedings were taken against certain tenants whose leases had expired and because of the loophole that existed in the 1958 Act the Proby Estate took action against the tenants. In one specific case the tenant successfully contested ejectment on four occasions but he ultimately had to settle for a very substantial sum of money. This man settled for £3,000 because of the loophole in the 1958 Act. The settlement was forced on him because of the loophole. Another tenant, having no lease, was seeking to get rights and privileges similar to those which it is now proposed to confer on others.

The point has been made by Deputy T.J. Fitzpatrick (Cavan) that it is commonly accepted that some if not all of the houses on the estate were not built by the previous landlord, Lord Proby. In fact, this was admitted in court during the eviction proceedings against one particular tenant. The matter was very complex. The commission had to deal with a great problem.

Sections 8 and 9 of the Bill deal with the claims of certain tenants but because this was not done in earlier legislation some tenants have been excluded. I agree with Deputy Fitzpatrick when he says that normally everyone dislikes retrospective legislation. In this particular case the landlord and his agents were aware that the Landlord and Tenant Commission were sitting and investigating the whole question. While this investigation was being conducted, and when it was obvious that the commission would sit for a long time, steps were taken to compel certain tenants to settle with the estate. These tenants were unlucky in that their leases were expiring. Because of this some of them were forced to settle. This surely was a case in which, if the recommendation which is now being implemented in sections 8 and 9 had been applied in the Acts of 1958 or 1967, the problem would have been covered.

This matter should be considered with a view to covering the cases of people who have had to come to terms. Obviously tenants in an estate of this character have little power to deal with wealthy landlords and are forced to come to terms. It could be said that the exorbitant terms with which certain tenants had to comply in order to remain in possession of their houses highlighted the problem. The same unjust action would have been taken against the other tenants but for the fact that their leases did not expire at that particular time. For that reason another look should be taken at individual cases and, if possible, amendments should be introduced which would cover them. The individual cases do not need to be mentioned here by name. It is generally acknowledged that full details are available to the Minister and were presented by the persons concerned to the Landlord and Tenant Commission.

I support the view expressed by Deputy Fitzpatrick that in so far as possible the tendency should be to enable the tenants to purchase their houses. The general improvement from the point of view of having an interest and a stake in their dwellings is obvious. This is in line with general policy adopted in respect of local authority housing. It must result in people taking more interest not only in their own property but also in the locality as well.

As was mentioned earlier, this is a complex and difficult part of the law. Any steps which can be taken for the implementation of the recommendations of the commission in the wider legislation mentioned by the Minister will undoubtedly be welcomed by persons affected and legal practitioners. The earlier Acts are extremely complex. Those who had to study law will remember that special study of the terms of these Acts was required of them. In many cases there was a special course dealing with aspects of these Acts. Anything that will simplify the study of it or simplify the application and interpretation of it for those concerned will be welcome. This particular piece of legislation is an interim measure to deal with certain urgent problems and to that extent we will give it as speedy a passage through this House as it got through the Seanad.

I would like to urge again that the tenants on the Proby Estate at Sandycove who are not covered by this legislation should be covered. The fact that this has been discussed here may bring to light cases that have not already been notified. There are a number of cases of very great hardship. Because of the manner in which action was taken to deprive them of rights which are now being granted to other tenants, at a time when the Landlord and Tenant Commission are sitting, this reinforces the case for retrospective legislation. In this case the landlord took action to "jump the gun". He took action because of the state of the law at the time, but knowing the commission was sitting and realising the circumstances and the difficulties of tenants who had no option but to try and come to terms with him. This now reinforces the case for taking remedial action to compensate the people concerned and to put them in a position where their situation will be the same as the other tenants who have been covered by the proposal.

I should like, on behalf of the Labour Party, to welcome this Bill and to make a few brief comments on it. The Minister said that the Bill deals with three specific problems as a result of the Conroy Commission on landlord and tenant problems. The Bill is made necessary at this time because of the demand for building land and for building development, particularly in the cities and the larger towns in this country. The developers' eyes are turning to the last remaining green belts in the city of Dublin, such as sports grounds, whether they be race courses, football clubs or golf courses. Only the corporation parks are safe. There are still three race courses adjacent to Dublin and one of these, Baldoyle, has already been sold to a developer. This leaves Leopardstown and the Phoenix Park and I believe both of these are being preserved for people who want to follow that sport.

There are two golf courses, at Newlands and at Lucan, awaiting the passage of this Bill since there is a threat to their continuance on their present sites. Golf courses are the only open spaces in some areas and the pressure to have these developed for housing and other purposes is very great. Those of us who have advocated the great need for houses in the city and in our own constituencies must realise the conflict which exists. Once development takes place on these open spaces they are developed indefinitely and one must strike a balance between the need to preserve certain open spaces in a built-up area. I feel there is land available for housing in this city and in other areas—areas such as Bray, near the centre of the town— which can be developed for housing and office building. If these last remaining open spaces are used, then our towns and cities will become congested and will have no lungs to breathe.

The chances of a person living in an area where there is a golf course becoming a member of that golf club and using its facilities are almost nil, since most 18-hole golf clubs have a membership of approximately 1,000. Very many people in the areas where those golf courses are situated have no chance of availing of that amenity. Any club which takes advantage of this legislation should have represented on its committee some people from the adjacent locality who will insist on people from that area being allotted places in that golf club. The practice has grown up that when two or three vacancies occur in a golf club in a particular area these are given to the friends of the committee and certainly to people who have generous incomes——

(Cavan): And low handicaps.

——and who can afford the very high subscription rates which many city clubs require at the moment. I feel this Bill is preserving the restrictive practices which exist in golf clubs at the moment. I hope the Minister, when we come to the Committee Stage, will see to it that people who live in the different areas will have some say over the use of these open spaces if sporting leases are granted. Newlands and Lucan hope to have their leases extended when this Bill is passed and I believe there are others as well. There is, however, the position where golf clubs are offered such large sums of money for their land that they can afford to sell off to the developers, go to the outskirts of the city and maybe even as far as my constituency, buy land at a much cheaper rate and start a new golf course or a new sports ground in that area. The type of person who is a member of these golf clubs can afford to drive down on Saturday afternoon and Sunday morning and use the facilities of the club while those who have built beside the original club find that the old club is developed without their having any say in that development. There is no pressure group and the committee of the club is not really representative of those in the particular area. That is one point I make in regard to golf clubs. It is a point worthy of note. The committees of these clubs are not democratic. They are not representative of the area. I should like some provision whereby local representation on such committees would be insisted upon particularly in the case of those clubs which may avail of this measure to get extension of leases.

The section dealing with the Proby Estate has largely been dealt with by other speakers. On behalf of the Labour Party I welcome the Bill and I hope it will be implemented with all possible speed.

I am grateful to the Dáil for its approval of the Bill. The main point of difficulty was that raised by Deputy Cosgrave in relation to the Proby Estate. I do not think the problem is as widespread or as grave as he suggests. Neither do I think it is right to say, as Deputy Fitzpatrick suggests, that the amelioration of the position of these tenants does not, in fact, go far enough. The Bill is retrospective for a period of five years. That is, I think, as long as anybody could reasonably expect. So far as I can ascertain—this, I think, is borne out by what Deputy Cosgrave said—the only people who are not satisfied are the two people we know of who entered into contracts before the question of this change in the law came up. I have great sympathy with them because, quite clearly, they have had to pay a great deal more than those who were able to avoid entering into contracts. On the other hand, what Deputy Cosgrave suggests would be rather dangerous. He suggests that the Oireachtas should come along and set aside existing and executed contracts. While one might think it not entirely morally wrong to seek to do this, the fact is that, if one accepts the principle that the Government should promote legislation to upset existing and executed contracts, then there would be no knowing where this would end. I am advised that any such exercise could run into serious constitutional difficulty. If this sort of principle were pushed to its logical conclusion, one could visualise a situation in which a Government would ask the Oireachtas to set aside contracts between individuals simply because the Oireachtas did not like one of the individuals concerned. Indeed, the Oireachtas could be asked to do that in respect of contracts into which the Government had itself entered. The principle is a bad one and, because it is, I could not accept it. But, even if I were willing to accept it, I am precluded by the Constitution from doing so. That is not to say that I do not sympathise with individuals who have been forced by the Proby Estate to settle with the estate. Fortunately, they seem to be few in number. We have had details of only two. There have been references to the possibility that there may be a few more: these may have settled on more advantageous terms. I am satisfied the Bill goes as far as it can go. It benefits almost everybody affected by the unusual nature of the leases or tenancies in this estate.

This Bill is really only a small first instalment of a great deal of new legislation. I introduced a comprehensive Bill last December by way of Long and Short Titles. It has not been possible, unfortunately, to publish that Bill yet because of its great complexity and the difficulty in drafting it. I would refer the House to section 4 of the Rent Restrictions Act, 1967.

(Cavan): I was going to ask the Minister would he accept a simple amendment to extend that?

I will come to that. What I want to do now is to give an example of how complex this legislation can be. Section 4 is simply the insertion of a new subsection in section 8 of the Principal Act, the 1960 Act, and this subsection runs to five full pages. It is very difficult to read a subsection of this length and then to go back and insert all that into section 8 of the principal Act and then read the whole of the new section 8. Although I am not altogether certain about it, the section may ultimately run to ten pages.

(Cavan): If I may say so with respect, it is typical of the rent restrictions code.

That gives one an example of the difficulty in drafting this type of legislation. I asked the draftsman to try, so far as is humanly possible, to make this legislation less complex but I am not certain that it is possible, unfortunately. The fact that a subsection alone runs to five pages shows the problems we have and I say this by way of apology to the House for the delay in the appearance of the main Bill. So far as the content of the particular subsection inserted by section 4 of the Rent Restrictions Act, 1967, is concerned, I cannot myself recall having said that I would re-enact it but I am told that I undertook at some stage in connection with the comprehensive Bill—not this one—that I would consider the re-enactment of section 4 (1) of the 1967 Act in view of the fact that its two-year life had expired.

(Cavan): It could be simply amended by substituting “six” for “two” in the last line. Six years would bring it up to 1973. I shall put down an amendment on the Committee Stage.

I find it rather difficult on reading this now to understand why I did undertake to consider it in relation to the comprehensive Act because it seems to be purely a rent restrictions matter, not a landlord and tenant matter. The reference in section 10 of this Bill to the Rent Restrictions Act is purely fortuitous because it is not really a rent restrictions point at all; it is an unexpected consequence in landlord and tenant law of a technical slip in a Rent Restrictions Act. The point Deputy Fitzpatrick is now urging on me is, I think, purely a rent restrictions point.

(Cavan): It caught many people on the wrong foot.

Many solicitors, I regret to say, do not seem to read these Acts when they come out. Many of them heard about this for the first time when the two years had elapsed.

(Cavan): As the Minister said, it is nearly impossible to read them.

The two years elapsed on 8th May, 1969, and it was only about then that most of the solicitors became aware of it.

(Cavan): The Minister himself was then practising.

I was. My problem, apart from whatever sympathies I might have in regard to the point, is that it does not appear that this is an appropriate Bill in which to make a substantive amendment of the rent restrictions code. However, I shall consider the point as to whether that could be done but it is rather a major point in rent restriction matters and I may have to consult my colleagues in the Government as to whether they are prepared to make this concession. There may well be Members of the House who possibly would not agree with the effect of the amendment he suggests. I should consider the point but I must have reservations about it because I believe it is a substantive rent restrictions matter and not a landlord and tenant matter.

I think I have dealt with the main points raised in the debate. I am grateful to the House for the welcome given to the Bill.

Question put and agreed to.

(Cavan): I have two amendments to put down. This day week?

Next Tuesday?

(Cavan): There may be another another amendment in connection with the probate point. I take it the Minister would accept it on Monday?

Committee Stage ordered for Tuesday, 23rd November, 1971.
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