andDr. O'Connell asked the Minister for Health if he intends taking any action such as withholding funds against those hospitals under the control of the Archbishop of Dublin, Most Rev. Dr. McQuaid, who has made it clear in a recent statement (details supplied) that he will not permit these hospitals to take part in an agreed system based on professional merit alone for appointments in the consultative grade.
Ceisteanna—Questions. Oral Answers. - Hospital Appointments.
9.
Dr. Browne
I have seen the report of the statement referred to by the Deputies, which was a report in the Irish Medical Times of 12th November, 1971, but I could not agree that it is clear from it that it is the system of appointment for consultants which was in question. However, on that question, I have already made clear the steps which must precede the introduction of a common selection procedure for consultants. First of all, I must await the establishment of Comhairle na n-Ospidéal. Section 41 (I) (v) of the Health Act, 1970, clearly provides for consultation with the comhairle, and with the bodies engaged in medical education, before any common selection system is settled. In view of this, it is premature to debate the question of introducing a common appointment system for hospital consultants.
I hope to circulate to voluntary hospitals within the next week my detailed proposals for the establishment of Comhairle na n-Ospidéal and after consideration of any further views they may offer, to bring the relevant draft regulations before the Dáil and Seanad in February next, to become effective on 1st April if they are approved.
Did the Minister last July not give an undertaking to the Dáil that Chomhairle na nOspidéal would have the right to establish a recruitment system based on special qualifications and, indeed, with the proviso that, if the particular hospital did not wish to have the particular person, they had the right to reject him on reasonable grounds?
On the contrary, I made it clear during the passage of the Health Bill that Comhairle na nOspidéal when first formed will have only the power of recommending sanction of consultants in voluntary hospitals and health board hospitals, that is to say, consultants paid for directly or indirectly out of public funds. When Comhairle na nOspidéal have been established, I made it clear that they would examine and have consultation with everybody concerned—the latter possibility is embodied in the Health Act—on a selection procedure for the appointment of consultants in voluntary hospitals. I made it perfectly clear that Comhairle na nOspidéal from the time of their inception, when the Resolution was passed in the Dáil and Seanad, would have power only of sanction or withholding sanction and the selection procedure would come at a later stage.
Would the Minister not agree that, in reply to a parliamentary question, he said that under no circumstances was it intended to take away the proprietary control of these voluntary hospitals from the governing body and would he not agree also that all other voluntary hospitals are prepared to co-operate in the establishment of a national selection system which would be equitable and under which people would be chosen on their merits? Am I right about the Minister's reply and, secondly, about the co-operation of all the other voluntary hospitals?
No. If the Deputy will read the reply——
I have read it.
——to the question asked on 22nd July he will see a draft statement of what I would regard as the rights of voluntary hospitals and their obligations.
Did the Minister send the circular to the voluntary hospitals?
I sent the circular to the voluntary hospitals. Their rights arose from discussions we had with the voluntary hospital boards, both with regard to ownership of their property and also with regard to their right to make representations against the appointment of any particular consultant if and when Comhairle na nOspidéal has, under the Health Act, the power of selection procedure.
Would the Minister consider a reasonable ground for the rejection of an appointment made by Comhairle na nOspidéal under their system grounds other than those of the professional qualifications of the doctor appointed, for instance, the religion of the particular doctor or his attitude towards such things as family planning, contraception and so on? Would he consider these reasonable grounds for rejection?
I prefer to wait until this procedure is discussed.
The Minister is aware, no doubt, that there was an objection raised by a particular surgeon, Professor Collins, to the fact that these three hospitals are not prepared to co-operate. He said it was a great pity because all the other hospitals were co-operating. Would the Minister not think it a good idea to consult with the chairman of these three hospitals to ensure the system operates properly?
The doctor to whom the Deputy refers was going on the basis that Comhairle na nOspidéal at a later stage would have, through a resolution passed in this House and in the Seanad, a selection procedure established and, until we have a debate on that subject, it would seem unreasonable for me to make generalisations. I do not believe, when this procedure is put through, that there will be any great difficulty about the appointment of consultants and that the vast majority of voluntary hospitals will agree to their appointment.
Not the vast majority.
What is the situation? I am not clear from the Minister's reply whether there has been, in fact, a refusal to co-operate, what form the refusal has taken, how it has been notified and by whom? Are we talking gossip or is there, in fact, disagreement of some kind?
The Deputy should read my reply of 22nd July——
I did read it.
——in which I gave my ideas of what were the rights of voluntary hospitals and their obligations. Their obligations are considerable. They are receiving State moneys to meet deficits and there are capitation grants. I suggested there should be given to them certain rights, but none of this will arise until Comhairle na nOspidéal, some time, not earlier, I should think, than the latter part of 1972 or early 1973, will be given the powers of selection procedures. Before that I have to consult the voluntary hospitals and the medical teaching bodies. It will be difficult to have the voluntary hospitals abandon the right to appoint their own consultants and it will take long negotiation. Because of that none of this is of urgency.
Has there, in fact, been disagreement and have some hospitals notified that they do not propose to participate in this scheme? In what terms was that notification and from whom did it come?
I have had no formal indication of any kind contrary to the statement I gave the House on July 22nd last.
The Minister is aware of the disagreement at the Holles Street Hospital meeting?
That is an entirely different matter.
Have the voluntary hospitals notified any disagreement?
No hospital authority of this State have objected to the terms and to the rights indicated in the reply to which I have referred.
The hospital authorities have not notified any disagreement.
The Archbishop is chairman of the hospital.
Names should not be bandied about in this House. People outside this House have no chance of defending themselves and no opportunity for reply.
It is about time people were appointed because of their professional qualifications and not because of their religious qualifications.
Nobody disagrees with that.