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Dáil Éireann debate -
Thursday, 18 Nov 1971

Vol. 256 No. 13

Committee on Finance. - Vote 8: Public Works and Buildings (Resumed).

Debate resumed on the following motion:
That a sum not exceeding £10,988,000 be granted to defray the charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1972, for the salaries and expenses of the Office of Public Works; for expenditure in respect of public buildings; for the maintenance of certain parks and public works; for the execution and maintenance of drainage and other engineering works; and for payment of certain grants-in-aid.
—(Minister for Posts and Telegraphs.)

The Estimate of this particular Government Department covers practically every part of the country and many features of our life. I said last year that it is possibly the most important Government Department in relation to the quality of life we are going to have in the future because it deals with physical features, it deals with our historical heritage, it can affect the shape of our capital city for years to come, it deals with recreational facilities and it is also a commercial department in the sense that it is responsible for arterial drainage and works in connection with those matters.

As I said last year, the Board of Works has within it a very good tradition of caring although sometimes that tradition seems to become weakened. One hopes that tradition will be fostered and, if anything, enhanced. It has a great deal of influence in this city because it is responsible for many of the public buildings and the standard of maintenance and care that it chooses to give to these could set an example for the private sector. The Board of Works can also initiate public building for Government Departments. The architectural standards it insists on can set a very necessary headline for the speculators who have been destroying so much of Dublin. The Board of Works should in its approach to building in this city be ultra-careful in regard to the problems of conservation.

We have never got any details from the Board of Works of the financing of the provision of Government offices. I believe from a newspaper comment —there is not anywhere else to get the information unfortunately—that the Government Departments sited in these new office blocks around this part of the city are all there on a rental basis like any other tenant. The Government have no propriety interest in these premises beyond whatever propriety interest they may acquire under the Landlord and Tenants Acts as occupying tenants.

A change of policy has occurred in relation to the new building being built in Kildare Street for the Department of Agriculture. Again we have to rely on newspaper comment but I understand a sophisticated financial system of leasing, leasing back and various refinements on that technique have been put into relation to ensure that eventually the fee simple will come back to the State. It would be interesting and only proper if the Parliamentary Secretary would in his reply inform the House, as representative of the taxpayers responsible for that building, what precise financial arrangements have been made to have it built, how it is going to be operated and the finances involved generally.

It has been rumoured that the Government have been God's gift to the speculators, who have erected these concrete and glass boxes all about, in relation to the rents they were prepared to pay in advance of letting. It is time we were told what these rents are and how they compare with going commercial rents.

The Board of Works have a big responsibility in relation to the headlines they set, the quality of the buildings they erect and the financial return they are prepared to pay because it can set a line for the private sector. The line they set can be very important in that over extravagance or generosity could be an inflationary factor.

In addition to that the Board of Works have tremendous influence in regard to the recreational facilities available. Being in charge of the Phoenix Park is, of itself, a task of massive importance. In his speech the Parliamentary Secretary adverted to some of the problems that are becoming acute in relation to the Phoenix Park. He mentioned the volume of motor traffic that is using it and the volume of horse riding that is taking place there. There will have to be control of both of these features. It would be a pity, and impossible, to ban the park to either or both. The number of fatal accidents at cross roads, in particular Mountjoy Cross, has been alarming. Steps will have to be taken to prevent any recurrence of these. It would be contrary to the nature of a recreational park to have to erect traffic lights in it and I would urge the Board of Works not to erect traffic lights if some other means of controlling traffic can be found. Lorries and buses are prohibited and I have no doubt this prohibition will and must continue.

Much of the through traffic in the Park at the moment is due to the fact that the bridge at Blanchardstown is not being used and traffic is being diverted through Castleknock Village and the Phoenix Park instead of going straight up the main Navan Road. If that bridge were repaired it might relieve the Park to a considerable degree.

People go to the Park at weekends to exercise themselves and allow their children to play. These people must have access to the Park and unfortunately they come in motor cars. They park their cars on the grass and on the verges of the road and they cause a certain amount of damage in so doing. This is a dilemma which is going to be difficult to solve. Perhaps the amenity study which is being carried out by students in the city will come up with some answer to the problem.

The problem of horse riding, and I am not referring to commercial horse riding, but to riding schools which have hacks of livery will have to be tackled because as far as I can see at the moment horses are ridden in any part of the Park. The result is that areas near the gate and at certain crossing points are a morass of mud when the weather turns wet. It is unfair to the horse trainers who pay quite a substantial sum each year for the privilege of training horses in the Park that their facilities and their training gallops should be interfered with by horses from the riding schools. I am glad to note however that the Parliamentary Secretary does not intend to prohibit horse riding in the Park. It is a feature of the Park's activities and it adds to the appearance of the Park and the views available to see people riding horses through that nice parkland. It is possible that special walks or rides will have to be provided so that the matter can be controlled.

I am glad the agitation to provide a municipal golf course in a part of the Phoenix Park has died by the provision of such a course on the far side of the Liffey between Islandbridge and Chapelizod. I would urge the Parliamentary Secretary to resist any attempt whatever at any encroachment of the Phoenix Park. It is too precious and for a growing population it is almost too small to permit any further encroachment. The fact that the golf course was resisted is an indication that the Board of Works is well aware of the value of this amenity and the importance of preserving it.

Another way in which the Board of Works has a big effect on the recreational facilities of this country is its responsibility for the inland waterways particularly the River Shannon. I should like to take this opportunity to pay a tribute to the men employed in Shannon Navigation for the help they are to users of the Shannon and for the dedication they give to their work. There is no question of their being confined to any 40 hour week; these men are available at all times to help tourists and other users of the Shannon.

The level of the Shannon which, strictly speaking, is not within the bounds of control of the Board of Works, is something which has caused great anxiety to boat operators during the last two summers. I mentioned last year the fact that the CIE cruiser was unable to ply north of Athlone for most of the 1970 summer season and that owners of vessels other than the average cabin cruiser were chary of crossing Lough Ree. I mentioned, too, that the reason for this was that the level of the water in Lough Ree was being deliberately kept low by the ESB and that there was a conflict of interest between the needs of the ESB and the tourist needs of the Shannon. There are two different Departments unfortunately involved—the Office of Public Works would be involved with tourist needs and the Department of Transport and Power with ESB needs. Some progress has been made in that the ESB has now at this late stage through the Minister for Transport and Power indicated that there might be an improvement next year, but I would suggest to the Office of Public Works, which has overall responsibility for the River Shannon, that this is not good enough and that the value of this river to the tourist economy, especially in the next couple of bleak years, will far outweigh any value it may have to the ESB by way of providing power for Ardnacrusha station. The ESB admit, to use a watery analogy, that Ardnacrusha is only a drop in the ocean in the overall production of the ESB. To try to maintain a high level in Lough Derg at the expense of Lough Ree is economically unjustifiable, particularly as it is being held in Lough Derg, I understand, merely for an emergency at Ardnacrusha, so that the reserve could be put into the national power grid, should the need arise. This is a callous approach, and ultra-conservative, on the part of the ESB when you consider the damage it is doing to navigation on the Shannon.

One flotel operator in Athlone, who came here nine or ten years ago, converted barges into floating hotels and he has been a very successful operator and has been a great boon to the economy of the town. He has had to move his headquarters from Athlone down to Killaloe. This is a big blow to Athlone and to the North Shannon area as well, as these barges plied north of Athlone as well as south of Athlone. The reason he has had to move is lack of water in the river at Athlone immediately north of the weir and lack of water in Lough Ree—it was dangerous for him to cross Lough Ree and for him when he got north of Lanesboro. The position there has been improved to some extent by the dredging which is taking place, but the improvement is only minimal and will not affect the position so long as the ESB open the sluice gates at Athlone and let water down south.

The position in Athlone could have been improved for this man by the Board of Works directly, because in the bed of the river in Athlone, to the east of the navigation channel between the weirs and the town bridge, there are old mooring stones lying there from times gone by when large yachts used to be moored in Athlone. These are a navigational hazard and any large boat navigating from the navigation channel to go to a mooring on the east quay is in danger of fouling its propeller on these stones. The Board of Works were asked on numerous occasions to lift them. The Board of Works navigation boat with its portable crane has been moored at the dock in Athlone for many weeks over the past few months, and to a lay person like myself and the boat users in Athlone, it is a mystery why the Board of Works, knowing that this need was there, knowing that these stones serve no purpose beyond being a hazard—why this boat capable of lifting them was not directed to lift them from the bed of the river once and for all. I strongly criticise the Board of Works for allowing that position to continue.

During the past summer, it was noticeable that there was considerable activity with hired boats on the Shannon and that the persons using them were in the main from Germany and France. I understand that the prospects for next summer in the same tourist market are good. The English market is dead as a dodo and it would be a pity if this continental market which is being developed could be in any way prejudiced by making navigation hazardous over Lough Ree next summer. I urge the Office of Public Works to support all the boat owners in the pressures they are putting on the ESB and indeed to assert itself over the ESB and to assert its prior claim to regulate the waters of this, out largest inland waterway, so as to ensure that tourist activities on the River Shannon next year can continue unimpeded.

I should recall too that the areas being served by the upper Shannon are what are known as some of the underdeveloped areas—Counties Roscommon, Longford and Leitrim—and any business that comes to these areas is welcome and a very essential boost to their economies. It makes nonsense of the policies for western development and encouraging industries to go west when this readymade industry is not encouraged so as to become fully utilised. Every boat that lands in Rooskey, Carrick-on-Shannon, Drumsna and Boyle brings spending into the area and a certain degree of prosperity, and any boat that cannot go north, that has to stay at Athlone or cannot even reach it is a loss to the area. I cannot emphasise strongly enough or often enough how important it is that the level of Lough Ree for this coming tourist season will not be interfered with. There is no good saying to me that the ESB have never let the level drop below the statutory minimum. The statutory minimum is no longer applicable because it does not leave enough water for the type of craft that wants to use Lough Ree and the Shannon above it.

I would urge the Parliamentary Secretary to ensure that the new regulations, the new bye-laws, relating to the Shannon should be fully thrashed out with all interested parties and, if possible, have them in operation and well publicised before next summer. Every boat and boat hirer should have a copy of them. They should be distributed to all boat hirers to be left in hired boats. It is important that these bye-laws should not be imposed on any of the groups using the Shannon. They should be brought into operation only after the fullest consultations. I know that some submissions have been made by associations of persons interested in the Shannon in connection with some of the bye-laws. Some of the changes they suggest would make nonsense of the bye-laws, and I do not think they would be prepared to force them, but I do think they should be done the courtesy, as the users of this great waterway, of being consulted before the bye-laws are finally framed. The Parliamentary Secretary did indicate very properly that he was prepared to meet these people but I think he should take the initiative and arrange these meetings and have these bye-laws passed into law.

I was glad to hear that attention is being given to the canals. These are essential parts of our inland waterway system, and as I indicated earlier, these are the one part of the tourist industry which showed promise during last summer. Every time I cross a levelled bridge on the Royal Canal, it brings home to me the terrible sin committed in allowing that waterway to fall into disuse. It was a nicer waterway than the Grand Canal because it went through more interesting country side and it had numerious spurs which served many towns in the midlands and provided a wide variety of touring facilities. It is so far gone now unfortunately that it is beyond repair. If there were stretches of it from the Shannon eastward or from Dublin westward that could be restored, I would ask the Office of Public Works to examine these with a view to restoring them.

The Barrow navigation should get urgent attention because it goes through most lovely country and it should be opened up for boat users so that access over its full length would be easily available. I have never travelled that waterway but I understand that there are navigational difficulties here and there on it, but it would not be over-expensive to remove them and I would like to see them removed and this waterway made completely accessible.

I want to refer to the Ballyconnell Canal and the possibility of linking the Shannon with Lough Erne. If the Shannon could be linked with Lough Erne and the Barrow navigation improved, we would have an inland waterway system from Limerick to Enniskillen, from Waterford to Limerick, to Enniskillen and to Dublin—a wonderful system with a wonderful potential for tourism.

Eventually, too, it might be possible to persuade the authorities in Northern Ireland to restore the link from Lough Erne to Lough Neagh and one could foresee the day when it could be possible to travel by inland waterways from Limerick to Belfast.

The other matter that I would like to deal with is the responsibility of the Office of Public Works for our historical heritage. I wonder sometimes whether there is sufficient urgency within the Office in relation to the problems under the archaeological and national monuments headings. One of the most urgent tasks facing the Office is the archaeological survey. As the Parliamentary Secretary has told us, it was decided in 1965 to make a survey on the ground of the entire country. Yet, in 1971 after six years during which there have been tremendous physical changes in the country, only the counties of Louth, Monaghan and Meath have been completed under this survey. We are told that it was extended last year to counties Cavan, Westmeath and Longford and that it is proceeding satisfactorily. I beg to differ from the Parliamentary Secretary on that statement and to say that it is misleading because my information is that outside Dublin there is now one officer available on the ground for work on this survey. If it was possible only to complete three counties since 1965, I can forsee a very slow rate of progress in the future.

Because of land reclamation works, arterial drainage, the extending of towns and the building of new roadways, it is critical that this survey be carried out as a matter of urgency so that anything worth saving would be saved. I understand that a new headquarters is being built outside Mullingar on a Board of Works site. Therefore, with new headquarters and with the will in the Office, all that is required is personnel and I would urge that personnel be recruited even to the extent of providing scholarships for graduates in archaeology so as to ensure there will be no shortage of personnel coming into the service in the years ahead.

A matter that I mentioned here last year and which has caused anxiety to people interested in archaeology is the destruction of ring forts. As I said on the previous occasion, it was in a ring fort that the Ardagh Chalice was found. There are many ring forts throughout the country and unfortunately many others have been bulldozed out of the way in the course of land reclamation work. If the significance and potential importance of these forts were explained to the farmers and contractors concerned I have no doubt that they would be willing to co-operate and leave them until such time as they could be excavated. I do not know whether preliminary investigation would indicate whether they were worth saving, but it might be possible to give a quick decision in respect of these forts to contractors concerned as to whether they should be bulldozed or preserved for further investigation. It is my experience that the farmers of Ireland take immense pride in their being anything of historical importance on their land and I am sure they would be anxious to co-operate in ensuring that anything worthwhile would be preserved and that there is access to it and that it is never damaged. Possibly some sort of task force could be set up within the Office of Public Works for the purpose of investigating ring forts.

I am aware that there is liaison between the Department of Agriculture and Fisheries and the Office of Public Works concerning the danger to ring forts but many of them are not mapped and I understand that permission for the demolition of some of them has been given without any excavation being carried out. None should be demolished without prior excavation. The archaeological survey has been progressing too slowly. If it is not speeded up the whole exercise will be pointless and too many valuable relics will have been lost.

The major conservation works to which the Parliamentary Secretary referred are to be commended and one would hope that they could continue on an ever-expanding scale. It is good to know that Clontuskert has been given attention. Last year I mentioned Clontuskert as being a prime example of what neglect can do. It collapsed in 1968 and nobody had been aware of the state it was in. I was interested to note that Trim Castle, a very dramatic monument, is receiving attention. There are so many places that need urgent attention that the matter is almost a cause for despair. Last year, too, I mentioned Inisboffin, which has various historic remains. There was an Augustinian monastic settlement there and this monument was restored in 1912 but nothing has been done with it since with the result that much of it has been overgrown. There is a hole in the sacristy roof and some grave slabs have been broken. I can understand that it is outside the resources of the Office of Public Works to attend immediately to every national monument and to give them the attention they deserve, but throughout the country there are local archaeological societies and perhaps the Office of Public Works might consider arranging closer liaison with these societies and, indeed, appointing officers to make arrangements for these people to look after and care for monuments in their areas and do a certain amount of restoration work on them. The Mullingar association did excellent work on a site in their area. Such liaison could result, perhaps, in urgent work being carried out until such time as major conservation works could be executed.

There is a growing interest in things historic throughout the country and this interest should be fostered by the Office of Public Works, but it would necessitate the appointment of special officers or the setting up of a special section to harness this enthusiasm and guide it into practical work. Another way in which this local enthusiasm could be harnessed would be in the collecting of grave slabs. There are many grave slabs in graveyards throughout the country. These stones are historic and should be collected. Very often they become broken. At one time there was a tradition in rural Ireland—in Clonmacnoise to be precise—that when a grave was opened it was considered lucky, if one might use the term, to bury with the remains pieces of some ancient stones with the result that a lot of very valuable pieces have been lost in that innocent but, unfortunately, harmful way.

The storing of such remains as grave slabs or interesting stones is something that must be a problem for the Office of Public Works. These are museum pieces but, of course, the National Museum is in no position to receive any more for its collections. It is already overcrowded and a big percentage of its collection cannot be put on view at all. I would suggest to the Parliamentary Secretary that the Office of Public Works have in Athlone an ideal venue for showing many of these remains and that is Adamson Castle. I understand it is not an ancient monument for technical reasons. The Department of Defence on handing it over reserved rights for certain soldiers' families to continue living there but to all intents and purposes because of its antiquity it is an ancient monument. It is in excellent condition. It has been maintained in that state by the Department of Defence since the foundation of the State. It has within itself apartments which would be suitable for displaying and storing things such as grave slabs or historic stones that might have become isolated from the buildings to which they were originally attached. I read a letter in a newspaper recently, which I meant to keep, in which somebody referred to the fact that a Sheelagh-na-Gigh had been removed from a wall and that it appeared to have been lost. This would be unfortunate because these figures are very interesting. Their origin, I understand, has never been completely explained but if there were any in situations where they might be liable to damage or theft they should be removed and stored in a suitable place where they could be documented so far as any documentation is possible. The Parliamentary Secretary should suggest to the ancient monuments section to consider Athlone Castle as a site for storing these relics. I did ask his collegaue in Education to consider it as a place to which to move the Army museum from Dublin. It is not being shown in Kildare Street and this castle would provide a most appropriate setting. The answer unfortunately was "no". As this property belongs to the Office of Public Works I would ask the Parliamentary Secretary strongly to use it for this purpose.

I should like to refer to the provision of plaques at historic sites. I mentioned 18 months ago, when we had the last debate on this Estimate, that all that was available on a site was a warning notice that anyone causing damage would be prosecuted and that it was the property of the Office of Public Works. There was no explanation of the history of the site or no information at all for the casual tourist. I am glad to see that this is under way but the speed at which it is being done is regrettably slow. Eighteen months have passed since this was mentioned by me and I am sure it was known to the Office of Public Works long before that. I hope there will be some sort of crash programme to get these things erected. I would suggest that the local societies to which I have referred earlier could be used. They would be only too willing to involve themselves in work of this nature because it is part of their activities. I do not know who planned or designed these plaques or what information they will contain. I was in Cashel and the plans there are commendable because from reading them one can get a picture of the site and the various buildings on it. Clonmacnoise, on the other hand, is not well done. There is a plaque and a site map of the remains showing the different periods in different colours but it is a bit confusing and could be improved. A lot of care should be given to the design and inscription of these plaques. There is an urgent need of toilet facilities at Clonmacnoise. It is the most important monastic remains in the country and it is visited each year by many thousands of tourists. The lack of elemental toilet facilities is a serious drawback. There is no shortage of suitable discreet sites in the area and I would ask that this be attended to as a matter of urgency.

The other main feature in which the Office of Public Works impinge on national life is as builders of schools. I readily concede that their efficiency here primarily depends on the availability of money but nevertheless every parish priest and reverend mother in the country has every Deputy in this House annoyed and plagued and pestered trying to get priority for his or her school. I do not know what the procedure in the Office of Public Works is for deciding the priority between schools. I know that the procedure for finding out exactly at what stage a school stands leaves something to be desired. It would be of immense help if each year a list of schools that would positively be done in the following year could be published. I concede that lobbying might result to try to upset that list but if school managers became satisfied that once they appeared on the list to be done their school would be done and that they would not be put off in favour of somebody else such lobbying would drop off and would eventually cease. At the moment the chief reason for frustration is lack of information about how priorities are decided, about how much money is available, about how many schools are to be built, about the technical difficulties within the Office of Public Works in getting the designs completed.

Priorities are decided by the Department of Education, not by the Office of Public Works. We advise them on the suitability of sites and we build the schools in the order of priority drawn up by the Department of Education.

Who provides the money?

It comes from this Vote.

So it is a question of the two Departments getting together——

They do that.

——to iron out these problems for school managers. If there could be more consultation and more information forthcoming a lot of these frustrations on the part of parish priests would be released and a Deputy's lot might be a happier one.

There are so many features which are relevant to this Department that one could speak for a very long time but I have dealt with the matters with which I personally am acquainted or about which I have strong feelings. I want to emphasise again to the Parliamentary Secretary how important it is that the level of the River Shannon in the summer of 1972 will never be let fall to the level to which it was allowed go in the years 1971 and 1970. He may say that this is primarily a matter for the ESB, over which he has no control, but he should look to have legislation introduced restoring to his Department the full control over that waterway, particularly now when its tourist potential and its actual tourist revenue are greater than its need for the ESB. This is a matter of supreme importance for the whole Midlands and for that undeveloped area of North Roscommon and Leitrim.

The waterways generally should have priority in the activities of the Department but I would urge that the Shannon get first priority among waterways because it is the greatest potential source of recreation for our own people and for tourist revenue in the economy.

Níl mórán le rá agamsa ar an Meastachán seo ach is maith liom an ócáid chun mo chóghairdeachas a dhéanamh leis an Rúnaí Parlaiminte go mór mhór mar gheall ar an suim atá aige i bPáirc an Fhíon Uisce, Baile Átha Cliath. Is maith liom freisin an ócáid a rá, go h-iondúil, is breágh liom éisteacht leis an gcéad cainteóir ó'n Fhreasúra, sé sin, Deputy Kenny. Deirim leis, nuair atá sé annseo, gur mór an trua é nach labhrann sé níos minicí sa Teach. Dá labharfadh, bhéadh árdú mór ar chaighdeán na díospóireachta.

If there is one reason more than another why I would be complimentary to the Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister for Finance it is because of the interest he has displayed and the recognition he has given in respect of the Phoenix Park, Dublin. I say that not from any parochial point of view but because in the times in which we live the Phoenix Park is one of the most important monuments we have. It is one of the biggest and I think the best of public parks in Europe and I compliment the Parliamentary Secretary on the concern he has shown to keep the Phoenix Park as it was originally intended to be, and on behalf of the people of Dublin and, indeed, of the people of Ireland, I thank him.

Having said that, I would take the opportunity of reminding the Parliamentary Secretary that, with all his concern, there is perhaps the danger that the Phoenix Park will lose its identity, that an effort will be made to change the character of the Phoenix Park, which will not be to the benefit of the people whose privilege and pleasure it is to use that park.

There has been progress in the field of technology. We are living in times of tension and pressure. Especially in Dublin, green spaces are being eaten up; children are forced, in some circumstances, to live in unnatural surroundings. There are certain limitations, generally speaking, on the lives of people.

The Phoenix Park is one area where, without charge, people are free to go, without any danger to themselves. One need have no fear that children will meet with any misfortune there. In the Phoenix Park people can remove themselves from the so-called progress, from the undoubted tension, and live at least for a few hours in peace and quiet, can rest their eyes on the natural colours and beauty of the countryside, notwithstanding the fact that the park is situate in the metropolis. There can be seen the natural furniture, the deer, the beast, the horse. There can be seen children at play or people reading quietly. We can see there the ideal life which unfortunately is receding from us.

I would be concerned that the Parliamentary Secretary would resist the pressures which would change the character of the Park. As the Parliamentary Secretary has said, traffic has now reached the point where the freedom that one enjoyed some time ago in the Park no longer exists. I hope the Parliamentary Secretary will indicate to us in his reply how he proposes to contain this problem.

While the Park is for the use of all the people and while I accept the fact that people will travel in their cars to the Park I would hope that they might be required to park their cars at a given point and that they would use the rest of the Park on foot or on horseback or, perhaps, if it could be arranged, on bicycle.

On the other hand, if we are going to allow the use of cars in the Park, it is necessary that a speed limit should be established. I would suggest a speed limit not in excess of 20 miles an hour. On the main road, white lines should be laid down, indicating the right and left sides of the road. At the moment it would seem that people imagine they are at liberty to use the main road in the park any way they like. These are precautions that would be necessary if motorists were to have the full run of the Park. The distance from any one point of the Park to another would not be greater than three miles. I do not see any reason why people would not be prepared to park their cars at one point and to use the rest of the Park on foot.

I mentioned earlier the natural furniture. I referred to the horse. Because, perhaps, of the affluent times in which we live and the demand for horseriding, I am afraid this has got somewhat out of hand, as has been mentioned by the Parliamentary Secretary. I referred to this matter last year but, being conscious of the fact that there were quite a few people engaged in the enterprise of making horses available, I was concerned that they would not lose their livelihood, although I have doubts as to whether or not people should be at liberty to commercialise the Phoenix Park. Where this is done, a substantial fee should be imposed and we should recover from those who are commercialising the Park an amount of money which would go towards the cost of renewal of the sod which is removed, an amount which would compensate for the damage done by the horses. There are hundreds of horses involved. They are mutilating the Park to an extent which makes me unhappy.

There is another feature. I referred to this last year and subsequently I got a note from the Office of Public Works. At the moment anybody who has 15s or £1 in his pocket can go to one of these stables and take out a horse. He can tell a lie and say he is an experienced horseman. He can be supplied with a fairly fiery horse and take it into the Park. As has happened, he may be thrown from the horse. The horse then moves riderless through the Park and there have been occasions when accidents have occurred. If a serious accident occurs, normally the injured party would be entitled to compensation, but in this case he can take action against the rider of the horse who may not have more than the 15s which he paid for the horse, or against the owner of the stable who may not have the money which would be judged in court as suitable compensation. It is absolutely essential that this matter should be resolved very soon.

I should not like to let this opportunity pass without paying a compliment to the staff of the Phoenix Park, the Park Superintendent and his staff. They get a certain amount of botheration from some people but they manage to control the Park without causing insult or annoyance to anyone. They maintain the Park in a fashion which does credit to them. In certain areas of the Park they should look at the desirability of providing more footpaths. They request people not to walk on some of the green margins but in the absence of footpaths, if people want to move from one place to another, they must trespass on the green verges.

In the new primary school curriculum great emphasis is placed on the study of environment. I should like to seek weekly incursions into the Phoenix Park by students from all the schools on the perimeter. Obviously the Park cannot be supervised all the time but the incidence of vandalism in the Park is less than it is in any other part of the city of Dublin. This may be attributable to the work of the staff but it also derives from the fact that the atmosphere and the environment do not lend themselves to vandalism.

I said that I would confine myself to speaking about the Phoenix Park but there is one other point I should like to make. I said in Irish that I welcomed the Estimate because it gave me the opportunity and the satisfaction of listening to Deputy Henry Kenny. Having said it in Irish I should like to repeat it in English lest it might not be made known to the public.

I should like to refer now to the proposal to introduce a simultaneous translation system into this House. This is an excellent idea and it should have been attended to years ago. It will be of great advantage to Deputies. We all desire to have the Irish language spoken in this House. To those of us who are anxious to express our thoughts in Irish it would appear that there is no anxiety or desire on the part of other people that those thoughts should be made known because of the fact that they are expressed in Irish. I am relating my comments to the proposal to introduce a simultaneous translation system here. It is unfortunate that in this country, where we are told that we have national newspapers, papers that are interested in everything that is national, papers that will at times take issue with the Government because of their attitude to the Gaeltacht, people who speak in the Irish language do not get their names mentioned in the papers.

That is not a matter for the Parliamentary Secretary. He has no responsibility for that matter.

I hope that the introduction of a simultaneous translation system will help to provide a solution to that problem and eliminate that extraordinary situation.

Mr. O'Donnell

I do not propose to speak at great length, although this is an Estimate to which I usually contribute. My main reason for intervening is to express my disappointment at the very bad news contained in the Parliamentary Secretary's statement so far as the constituency I represent and Limerick county are concerned. I deplore the decision which led to the Parliamentary Secretary stating:

The amount sought, £878,000, is less than the £1,176,000 provided last year and it does not enable a start to be made on the Maigue Scheme.

I am sure this news will come as a bombshell to the hundreds of farmers who live along the River Maigue which flows not merely through a good agricultural region but through a considerable part of the Golden Vale which is regarded as the finest agricultural region in Western Europe. This scheme has met with a continuous series of mishaps.

When the late Donogh O'Malley, God rest his soul, was in charge of the Board of Works he initiated a scheme of drainage for Limerick, starting with the Deale, proceeding to the Maigue and then to the Mulcaire. The Deale scheme was completed and steps were taken to proceed with the Maigue scheme. Unfortunately, objection was lodged and subsequently in the High Court and, on appeal, in the Supreme Court the scheme was found to infringe the rights of a certain party in Adare. The result was the Board of Works had to amend the scheme. A new scheme was introduced. We were absolutely certain that the decks had been cleared and work would start on the Maigue. Now the Parliamentary Secretary says that the provision this year will not enable a start to be made on the Maigue. I want to know, and so does every farmer in the area, what has gone wrong. When will the scheme start? What has happened to the machinery that was there after the Deale had been completed? Has it been transferred to the Boyne? There are a few machines working. The Parliamentary Secretary describes this as a very small scheme. So many people's hopes and livelihoods are dependent on this major catchment being drained one would think the order of priority would naturally dictate that the agricultural potential of the catchment area would be taken into account. The Maigue flows through the finest agricultural area in Western Europe, the Golden Vale. I deplore the decision of the Board of Works and the Parliamentary Secretary and, indeed, the Government will have some explaining to do to the people in that area.

With regard to the Mulcaire, the Parliamentary Secretary said this is listed among the schemes for consideration and preparation. He then went on to talk about a new concept. He talked about the application of cost benefit techniques to arterial drainage. A cost benefit analysis, he said, into the question of arterial drainage has been initiated by the Board of Works in co-operation with the Department of Finance. This is the first time this has happened in my ten years in this House. What the hell do the Board of Works and the Department of Finance know about the agricultural industry? There is no one in the Board of Works capable of assessing the productivity of the land in the area concerned. The next thing we will hear is that the Board of Works and the Department of Finance, having set up a cost benefit analysis, Messrs. McKinsey will be called in. That will be the next step. That is the pattern nowadays.

I am in favour of cost benefit analysis. I have advocated it in respect of a certain State company. I am a firm believer in assessing the social advantages of economic programmes and plans but, surely to goodness, common sense must dictate that, if an area of land which is subject to severe flooding is drained, the productivity of that land must inevitably increase substantially. Anyone with even an elementary knowledge of agriculture or farming knows that. It is common sense. It is even more commonsensical when one takes into account the area through which the Maigue runs, starting at Kilfinnan and running right down through Kilmallock to Limerick city, with the Morning Star and Groody tributaries. Surely this scheme, if completed, must increase to an enormous degree the productivity of the land. I cannot see where a cost benefit analysis comes in here. It is a mad idea.

The Agricultural Institute have carried out certain studies into this. Studies have also been done in other countries. It is not the Board of Works or the Department of Finance who should be carrying out these studies. This is an exercise much more suited to the Agricultural Institute because they have both the expertise and the know-how essential to assess the benefits from arterial drainage.

Some 18 months ago the Parliamentary Secretary very kindly received a deputation of the landowners along the Mulcaire. This river is on the Limerick/Tipperary border. Deputy Smith will know all about it. The Parliamentary Secretary was most courteous. He listened attentively. Before that deputation came to see him a cost benefit analysis had been carried out by a group representing the Mulcaire catchment area. They produced for the Parliamentary Secretary facts and figures which showed the losses they were incurring along the catchment area through which the river flows, losses in productivity, losses because lands flooded were infested with fluke and other animal diseases. Their facts were backed up by a veterinary surgeon who had expert knowledge of 15 years work in this region. He gave details about the benefits which would accrue from the drainage of the Mulcaire catchment area. In his introductory statement the Parliamentary Secretary said:

With a view to reaching a conclusion on such matters the Department of Finance, in collaboration with the Office of Public Works, has put in hands a full cost benefit study of arterial drainage.

When the Parliamentary Secretary comes to reply I want him to answer certain questions. Where is this study being carried out? By whom? Who are the people carrying it out? What are their qualifications? What experience have they of the agricultural industry? What are they hoping to prove as a result of this particular exercise? I challenge the Parliamentary Secretary and the Board of Works to send these gentlemen down to the river Mulcaire catchment area or to the Maigue catchment area and I defy them to produce results which will not show the advisability and the advantages of proceeding with the drainage of these catchment areas.

The Parliamentary Secretary then went on to talk about the objectives of arterial drainage. He asked whether drainage schemes were intended primarily to relieve flooding of land or to alleviate the problems of those living in areas subject to flooding. To me, this is simply outrageous casuistry. I have never heard anything so outrageous in any ministerial or Parliamentary Secretary's brief in this House. I understood that the purpose of arterial drainage was so obvious that there was no need to couch it in terminology of this particular nature. What that kind of language will mean to the hundreds of farmers in Limerick when they hear that it is not proposed to proceed with the schemes I do not know. God alone knows what will happen about the Mulcaire scheme. The Parliamentary Secretary said that the board has been operating to a brief 30 years old and it may well have to reassess the objectives of arterial drainage.

The whole question of arterial drainage is closely allied to agricultural production and the social and economic problems of rural Ireland. As well as being the concern of the Board of Works it is also the concern of the Department of Lands and the responsibility of certain local authorities. I had thought the whole question of arterial drainage within the context of agricultural and rural development would have been looked into and responsibility for it might very logically and, perhaps, with considerable benefit be assigned to the Department of Agriculture and Fisheries.

I will not be surprised if next week the Parliamentary Secretary announces that Messrs McKinsey are coming in to assess this assessment of the cost benefit analysis. I cannot be blamed for suspecting that this cost benefit analysis is a delaying tactic and is being used by the Government as an excuse because they do not have enough money to carry out the drainage. The Board of Works, the Department of Finance and the Department of Agriculture and Fisheries all know the benefits to be derived from arterial drainage.

I am pleased that work on the River Groody, which is a small river just outside Limerick city, is proceeding. The Parliamentary Secretary has said this is a relatively small scheme but even so I am sure it will provide a very good subject for any examination which may be carried out into the benefits of arterial drainage. This Estimate is normally a non-controversial one but I make no apologies for having expressed my views so strongly about the whole question of arterial drainage.

The Board of Works is co-operating with the Department of Transport and Power in relation to canals and the river Shannon navigation. As one who is interested in transport particularly in relation to the tourist industry, I think it is true to say that the development potentials of our canals and inland waterways as tourist attractions cannot be over-emphasised. I believe there is colossal potential on the river Shannon, on the canals and on other inland waterways particularly in the light of the attractiveness of this country to foreign visitors. Natural amenities such as rivers, lakes and canals should be a source of enjoyment to our own people and a valuable tourist attraction. The same can be said about our national monuments, parks and other examples of our heritage. These national monuments and national landmarks can be used effectively. They should be developed in a responsible manner so as to be a source of pleasure and enjoyment to our people as well as serving as a constant reminder of our great heritage.

While acknowledging the work done by the Board of Works in this respect I should like to pay tribute to a voluntary organisation called An Taisce which have done a tremendous amount in focusing attention on the need to preserve antiquities of various kinds. I am not familiar with the national operation of An Taisce but I am very familiar with the small group of dedicated people in Limerick and the tremendous work they have done excavating and cleaning up outstanding historical landmarks contained in what are internationally known as the Walls of Limerick. They have focused attention on the vast amount of antiquities and history contained in places like Lough Gur adjacent to Limerick city. An Taisce and organisations like it should be given every encouragement.

While I am conscious of the way our historical monuments, national parks, waterways and canals can make a valuable contribution to the development of our tourist industry the real value of preserving our ancient monuments and historical landmarks is that they serve as a reminder to younger generations of our vast cultural and historical heritage. This type of work must be encouraged and continued.

The outstanding example of such a development is what are known as the castle tours which have been developed by the Shannon Free Airport Development Company. While certain people scoff at Bunratty and look upon it as a mere tourist gimmick, with the reconstruction and renovation of the castle into its present state and shape, apart from being an attraction to tourists, it is also a most interesting place to visit, and I am glad to know that more and more schools are availing of the opportunity to take senior pupils particularly to these castles, not for the purpose of indulging in mediaeval banquets and imbibing the very potent liquor down there, mead, but of giving a practical lesson on history.

I am also glad to see that at long last the problem of providing a decent Garda barrack in Limerick city is being overcome. This has been a source of continuous annoyance and difficulty. I am very gratified to find that it has now been possible to secure a suitable site on which to provide the muchneeded Garda headquarters in the city of Limerick and I hope there will be no delay in the construction of this building. It almost shames me to talk about the building which has had to serve as Garda headquarters in a city the size of Limerick. I hope that all the stops will be pulled out and that the building programme will proceed as rapidly as possible.

Deputy Cooney pointed out that he raised matters some 18 months ago and Deputy Tunney told us that it was not a good idea to debate an Estimate of £11,000,000 or £12,000,000 when most of the money had, in fact, been spent. That leads me to recall that the debate on this Estimate last year went on for a period of many months, and while it is not for me to make decisions on these matters, I think every Deputy and every member of the Government would like to see the Estimates dealt with more expeditiously.

I want to deal with the matters raised under various heads rather than in the order in which they came up, but as the last speaker referred to Bunratty Castle, I happen to have here a report from An Taisce to the Government. I cannot reveal the full contents as it is not a published report yet, but it says:

in relation to the eight museums who specialise in folk material, the most ambitious and at the same time the most successful of these is the folk park at Bunratty.

I should like to agree with Deputy O'Donnell and An Taisce that this has indeed been a great success.

I should now like to deal with some marine questions. Deputy Kenny led the Fine Gael contribution and one of the questions he asked was in regard to Roonagh Point in County Mayo and Clare Island, County Mayo. He quoted the figure of £40,000 being allocated, but, in fact, a proposal for the extension of Roonagh pier was sanctioned, the cost being about £50,000. Plans and specifications were prepared and are with Mayo County Council for some time for consideration, and when Mayo County Council come back to the office of Public Works, I hope there will be no delay as a result of what we hear from them, but it may be that the plans will require alternation and some more work may be necessary; but at this particular point of time the proposals for the extension of that pier are with Mayo County Council.

A proposal to improve the landing facilities on Clare Island has also been sanctioned. These works consist of an extension and raising of the deck level of the existing pier, extension landward and realignment of the paved area adjacent to the breakwater, realignment on one side of the boat slip and provision of a crane. It is proposed to proceed with this scheme and provision has been made therefor in the Estimates for 1972-73 and it is expected to invite tenders very shortly.

Deputy Kenny was concerned with a rather broad area around his constituency, the Erris peninsula from Ballycastle to Broadhaven Bay and down the Achill area. There are many proposals for marine works in this area and I think the most important of these is in Ballyglass, for which proposals estimated at £250,000 are being considered at this time by the Department of Agriculture and Fisheries. When I mention a sum of £250,000, Deputies will realise that we are thinking of a major development in this area, and, as you would point out, a Leas-Cheann Comhairle, the final policy decision is one for the Department of Agriculture and Fisheries, but I think it is only right that I should put on record the works which we plan to carry out. While this is not the very final decision, I would say that it will be very close to the works which will be carried out in due course.

First, it is proposed to erect a pier to accommodate boats, two abreast, drawing 7½ feet of water; secondly, it is proposed to erect a storm wall; thirdly, we are concerned with the provision of an approach; and then, if feasible, the provision of lighting. We found in the various other harbour works we have undertaken over the years that the provision of lighting has been a tremendous help to the fishermen because they are not then confined by the time of day or the conditions of light as to when they can come in and go out and they have greater availability of the high tides. A scheme has been sanctioned for works at Reenroe, estimated to cost £18,000 and it is hoped to commence work on this in the spring of 1972.

Other proposals in this area, which I am sure Deputy Kenny will be glad to hear are being investigated, are new schemes at Frenchport and Blacksod, improvements at Belderrig and Doonea and Coolabinneas, Achill Island. At Porturlin, a scheme of works estimated to cost £19,000 is in hand since July, 1971, and this scheme consists of dredging the approach channel and pool, the raising of the storm wall, repairs to the old sea wall, removing pieces of concrete from the sea bed, rebuilding part of the old CDB pier, and the provision of lights.

Deputy Kenny was concerned particularly with this question. He said that people were willing to earn a living from the sea and that provided the necessary facilities were available, this type of activity would enhance greatly the prospect of an area. I have pointed out already that policy as to where the particular facilities are provided is not a matter for my Department, but I would like to make it clear that my Department have surveyed all the areas concerned and have made recommendations to the Department of Agriculture and Fisheries. That Department are now considering these recommendations and I have no doubt there will be no excessive delay in reaching policy decisions on this matter. Development of the five major harbour centres decided on by the Government is continuing and the experience of the Office of Public Works is that as quickly as we can provide facilities the fishing fleet expand faster than we ever anticipated, so that we find it necessary to consider further expansion as soon as a scheme is completed. That trend is encouraging and, regardless of what exchanges we have had in the House during the week concerning the negotiations in relation to the inshore fishery problem in the context of the Common Market, statistics prove that the activities of the Office of Public Works, in co-operation with the Department of Agriculture and Fisheries, have resulted in this industry growing to a much greater importance than what it was when the negotiations were first entered into.

Ours being an island country, it is only natural that most Irish people would have a love for the sea. It is clear now that a good living can be made from the sea by those who wish to earn their living in this way. The inborn skills which the Irish have in this respect go back probably to the time of the great voyageur, Saint Brendan.

He did not fish.

He was certainly very fond of the sea. He travelled so far afield that he would not have been able to survive without catching some fish.

He was more interested in getting places than in fishing.

I understand he built a monastery in America and he hardly would have reached there if he had not been able to fish. I have no wish to play down anything that was said here last night by Deputy Kenny who spoke at considerable length. Obviously, he put a great deal of work into the preparation of his contribution and we have not had very much time to prepare a reply. However, I would like to deal with the various matters he mentioned. At the outset Deputy Kenny complained that the practice of handing out copies of a speech only after the Minister or Parliamentary Secretary concerned had stood up to read the speech made it difficult for the speaker who was to follow. I do not know who was responsible for this particular rule but I am certain that it is not the Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister for Finance who is responsible for it. Perhaps it would be a matter for the Committee on Procedure and Privileges. I have not been able to trace the origin of the practice but I understand that in earlier days no copies of a Minister's speech were circulated and that the practice of circulating them was adopted for the purpose of facilitating Deputies. So far as I am concerned personally I would endeavour to facilitate Deputies in any way I could.

Does the Parliamentary Secretary not recall that the present Minister for Health in his capacity as Minister for Posts and Telegraphs and Transport and Power used to circulate a document giving the main points of the activities of his Departments during the year. That was a very good practice.

I will look into this matter. It is something that had not occurred to me until it was mentioned during the debate. I would like to say, though, that in a private conversation with Deputy Kenny, I tried to give him a synopsis of the major items in the Estimate.

So far as I can recall, the Office of Public Works have on occasions in the past given a run down of their proposed activities in advance of the Estimates being introduced.

I have prepared a history of the Office of Public Works and some time I hope to have an opportunity of using it. I have researched the Department back to their inception. There was a time when the Office of Public Works employed one out of every seven people in the country. However, we will consider the suggestion with a view to giving Deputies a breakdown on our activities at a date earlier than that on which the Estimate is introduced. Deputy Corish will appreciate that one can never be sure as to when an Estimate will be taken. This week, for instance, some Bills were dealt with in the House which I am sure Deputies would have expected to have been dealt with at much greater length. Therefore, if I released a copy of my speech, say, this week, there would be the possibility of my not getting in to introduce the Estimate for a further couple of weeks.

It would be the same speech.

It might not. I have been advised now that what has been given out in the past is a list in relation to subhead E which is the biggest subhead in our Estimate and relates to new works, alterations and additions including furniture, for new buildings.

That is what I meant. It was a good idea.

We shall revert to that practice next year. This might facilitate Deputies by informing them of where there are changes in expenditure, and, consequently, would help to improve the contributions. So far as I am concerned the more criticism and advice that I can get in the House the better. I listen to everybody and I try to shape the policies of the Office of Public Works in a way that will reflect the wishes of the people. By and large I think that I have made a reasonable interpretation of the people's wishes.

Deputy Kenny inquired about Portacloy. Here, unfortunately, it is impossible to design a scheme to climinate ground swell entirely. Some swell might be eliminated by the provision of a breakwater across the entrance to the bay but this would be very expensive. When the scheme for Portacloy was being designed several meetings were held with local fishermen. The final scheme was agreed with them before commencement. Subsequently, the scheme was expanded during the progress of the work at the request of the fishermen and in consultation with them. Consultations with fishermen are invariably held but it has often been found that, while schemes have been agreed on with fishermen before commencement, they have later changed their minds and have requested alterations or additions to the schemes. I assure Deputy Kenny that it is not just the engineers and the experts of the Office of Public Works who decide where the pier, landing place or breakwater should be situated. He seemed to suggest that the local fishermen, who knew every current, every drift and every swell, would be better able to decide where these things should go. I assure the Deputy that all the activities carried out under the heading of marine works are done in consultation with the local fishery interests. He quoted from the fishermen's journal and I shall not enter into any dispute on that but it is a little unfair to say that the marine engineers employed by the Office of Public Works do not consult local interests, that they built a pier costing £20,000 of taxpayers' money and that it is now no use. It is just not done. The kernel of policy is that, before any work is done, any technical advice we can give to the fishermen is given and any advice they can give us is listened to. We try as far as possible to meet the wishes of these people and to see that the most satisfactory scheme is provided.

Deputy Tully dealt with major harbours as distinct from fishery harbours. He was most concerned about Drogheda harbour and he asked what has happened to the proposed development scheme. This is a concern of the Department of Transport and Power. The Drogheda Harbour Commissioners are carrying out an improvement programme with the aid of a grant from the Department of Transport and Power and the Office of Public Works are at times called upon, but only in a consultative way. I do not know whether the Estimate for Transport and Power has yet been taken, but if Deputy Tully wishes to pursue the matter further that is where it should be done.

I should like to give some information about our activities at Cleggan harbour, County Galway. The works recommended by the County Galway survey team and being carried out are (1) removing the silt from within the harbour; (2) providing a new crane for handling the boom; (3) lengthening and cleaning the inner slip; and (4) providing a winch on the slip. The estimated cost of this is £11,000 and the county council will contribute 25 per cent. Repairs estimated at £4,000 are also being carried out on the pier on behalf of the county council and the cost will be repaid by the council. The works are in hand and will be completed before 31st March, 1972.

In relation to Roundstone, County Galway, the works recommended by the survey team are widening and repairing the slip and are estimated at £3,000. The county council will contribute 25 per cent. All preliminaries have been completed but the work cannot start until a foreman is available. The two foremen in County Galway are engaged at Cleggan and Shruffaun. These are both jobs sponsored by Roinn na Gaeltachta. Efforts are being made to recruit another foreman and if these are successful Roundstone can be started this year. The only other one in this particular series is Emlaghmore. The work recommended by the survey team consists of facing the quay and raising the level above the main high-water spring tide. The cost is estimated at £6,000 and the county council again are contributing 25 per cent. The position in this case is similar to that of Roundstone.

Deputy Kenny, in relation to coast protection, raised a question about Carramore. He suggested that the protection wall at the pier was too low and as a result ten acres of land and three houses are flooded by the sea. He asked that something should be done about this under the Coast Protection Act, 1963. In the case of all matters that come under the Coast Protection Act, 1963, it is in the first instance a matter for the local authority to submit proposals. If Deputy Kenny will arrange for the local authority to submit proposals in respect of Carramore, when this is done they will be considered under the provisions of the Coast Protection Act, 1963.

Deputy Tully, under a similar heading, asked whether the Office of Public Works could provide the necessary money to make good damage to a wall in County Meath which is being damaged by an under tow. Again the Meath County Council should examine this proposal to see whether it is a case for action under the Coast Protection Act, 1963. If so, they can refer their proposals to the Commissioners of Public Works and I promise they will be considered in conjunction with several other proposals we have already received.

Deputy Tully and other Deputies were concerned about the Government's policy of decentralisation. Referring to the provision made this year under Subhead E, they said that it looked as if this was only a gimmick and that it would never happen and they asked why not admit this. Deputy Kenny, I think, was a little bit more astute when he quoted an article from a Sunday newspaper. All I am entitled to say is that decentralisation of Government offices, while not a matter for me, is very far from dead. Indeed, I would expect some positive developments in the very near future.

There were a number of questions asked about drainage, particularly by Deputy O'Donnell. I think I would be unfair to the House if I said anything more than what I said in my original contribution, that is, that the question of drainage is under review; that the Department of Finance, in collaboration with the Office of Public Works, has put in hands a full cost benefit study of arterial drainage as administered at present; that the Office of Public Works is working under a system that has been in operation now for 30 years and it is time to have a new look at the entire matter. But, I should like to assure Deputy O'Donnell, without going into any of the specific rivers which he mentioned or, indeed, any of the others mentioned during the debate, that the Department of Agriculture and Fisheries and An Foras Talúntais are on a committee collaborating with a team doing the cost benefit analysis. If I had been misleading in my original address, it is the Department of Finance, the Office of Public Works, An Foras Talúntais and the Department of Agriculture and Fisheries that are carrying out this survey.

Mr. O'Donnell

That leaves a bit more credibility than the information originally given.

Yes, I agree.

Mr. O'Donnell

Because, the Department of Agriculture, surely, is the final authority on the advantages of draining land.

Yes. This will ultimately be a matter for Government decision, priorities and so on. In some countries in the European Economic Community arterial drainage is done in a slightly different way. Their criteria as to the justification for it are based mainly on social considerations rather than on economic returns and there could be an argument made, for instance, that in parts of the West of Ireland, in particular, in the Gaeltacht areas, where there are steep mountains, most of the tillage land would be along the banks of the river and the rest of the land is fit only for grazing cattle or sheep. While under the present system of costing this might be found to be uneconomic to drain. socially it might be more desirable. I announced the introduction of this analysis last year. It is now under way. It will take some time. You cannot just carry out a proper cost benefit survey in 12 months. I am afraid that until such time as it has been produced, it would not be right for me to anticipate how the Government will view the matter in relation to next year's Estimate. We have made some recommendations to them but the full survey is absolutely essential.

The situation in relation to the European Economic Community and the question as to where the best social benefit or economic benefit might lie must be brought out and shown clearly. The present policy is to do the biggest and the most economic scheme. whereas it might be more desirable to do smaller and less economic schemes for their social content. If there is to be a change in policy, the cost benefit analysis must be carried out so that it may be understood what is going on and the reasons for the Government decision.

Mr. O'Donnell

I am very much in favour of cost benefit analysis but the point I made was that I did not see the need for it in respect of a project like arterial drainage, the advantages of which agriculturally are so obvious. That is my point.

This is what I hope we are going to prove. As the Deputy well knows, the percentage of the Capital Budget allowed for arterial drainage has been diminishing consistently over the years.

Mr. O'Donnell

It may serve a useful purpose in that it would spell out the actual advantages that we have taken for granted. I agree with the Parliamentary Secretary there.

The original inspiration for my suggesting this was that the percentage of the Capital Budget allowed for arterial drainage has been diminishing, not all that much in money but in relation to national spending.

I should like to assure Deputy Tully that there is no question of trying to save money on maintenance. So long as there is useful work to be done the men will be kept on. I have got two answers here because I know Deputy Tully has a specific question down about this for next week and if he were here I would know whether I should leave it over until then or not. I will just explain the position in this way: In relation to the Glyde and Dee drainage scheme, in which he was most particularly interested, the position is that the most effective period for maintenance work on drainage schemes is from early June to November. This year men were taken on on the Glyde and Dee scheme when conditions were suitable, at the beginning of June, and will be let go during the present month because the work is finished. There is no question of their being laid off to counter wage increases. In any event, money spent on maintenance is recoverable entirely from the county council. Any lay-off on maintenance is because no useful work can be done. It does not cost the Office of Public Works one penny to carry them out.

Also, Deputy Tully suggested that the Commissioners of Public Works were very cute or were being a little oversmart in making a provision in the 1945 Drainage Act whereby if a well dried up after a drainage project they were not legally responsible. In relation to the drying up of wells, there was a Common Law decision— it has nothing to do with the Act— which excludes the Office of Public Works from any liability whatsoever once these wells come from underground channels that have not been mapped. However, I should like to give this undertaking to the House: the Commissioners will view individual complaints sympathetically. This has not been done in the past but this will be done from now on and I think in relation to some wells Deputy Tully was complaining about in the current year he cannot complain that he was not sympathetically treated.

While I have dealt with drainage in an overall way, I should like to say one word about the Boyne. The most scenic area of the Boyne Valley is not being drained at all, with the consent of the farmers. I would say that in relation to all arterial drainage schemes undertaken, more attention is being paid to conservation in relation to the Boyne and in particular in relation to the disposal of spoil. I have been in that area and I have not seen what Deputy Tully was complaining about, but I think it is being very well done and I should like to compliment the engineers and officers in charge of the scheme.

There were one or two things that Deputy Tully said yesterday that really concerned me deeply. One of them I knew about and one of them I did not believe and I cannot answer now adequately. He complains about the failure of the Office of Public Works to reply to letters written by him as a trade union official. I am not sure what letters the Deputy is referring to and if he will supply me with the details I will have the matter looked into and see that replies are issued without further delay.

The other matter which concerned me deeply was—I am sorry the Deputy is not in the House but, no doubt, word will get back to him of what I am now about to say—Deputy Tully accused the Office of Public Works of committing a grave injustice towards a former employee who, he alleges, was dismissed on very flimsy grounds. I offered to discuss this case with the Deputy during the past week but a mutually convenient opportunity did not arise.

To be quite honest, I am astonished that he should have stood up in this House and made such sweeping allegations without first paying me the courtesy of listening to the other side. The truth is that Deputy Tully is not in possession of the full facts of the case. I think he performed a disservice to the man whose cause he is championing by raising this matter publicly in this way. I do not intend to follow his example by going into any great detail.

Suffice it to say that I am fully satisfied that this man was dismissed for good and proper reasons. If anything, the Office of Public Works leaned too far in the direction of leniency by offering to employ him in another capacity and by offering him the option to resign rather than be dismissed. I invite Deputy Tully, if he so wishes, to discuss this case with me fully and privately and I will explain all the reasons why this disciplinary action was taken. I have the file here.

I will tell him. That is not his form.

I was quite surprised myself. I think I have said enough. We would only do this man and his family a disservice by discussing it further. In view of the various representations made to me he is probably identifiable to many Deputies.

Deputy Tully was also concerned about income tax deductions. The Commissioners of Public Works deduct tax in accordance with instructions received from the Revenue Commissioners. Based on previous experience, they make deductions even before they hear from Revenue in an effort to spread out the burden as much as possible. It can happen occasionally that, when a man's circumstances have changed and his actual liability becomes known, a fairly big sum can remain to be deducted within a specified period. I think this is what the Deputy was worried about.

The problem in general is being examined to see if anything can be done about it, but a simple solution rests with the employees who are usually aware of all the relevant circumstances, that is, to ask to have increased amounts deducted from their pay each week in anticipation of a quarterly assessment. What that boils down to is that if an employee requests that an arrangement be made for an evenly spread out sum to be taken from his wages, that will be done. It is the employee who does not make that request who occasionally finds himself in the situation about which Deputy Tully was concerned. I am glad to say it does not happen too often.

Deputy Tunney and Deputy Cooney were concerned about Trim Castle and what it is intended to do about it. In Trim Castle a limited archaelogical excavation is in progress to supplement our information on the history of the site. Conservation works to protect the monument are in progress and will be continued. We do not own Trim castle. We are the guarantors only. I intervened in the debate to say that some work has started at Trim Castle.

I should like to thank Deputy Tunney very sincerely, not for his kind remarks about me, but for his kind remarks about the Office of Public Works employees in the Phoenix Park. I made a note of the points he raised about speed limits and I noted with great interest his suggestion that the horse owners using the Park might be assessed for some sort of compensation for the damage done to the turf by horses. Each year on this Estimate I have listened to the different ideas and suggestions from Deputies and I have had them examined individually. I have come to the conclusion that a proper assessment of the Park and its amenities and facilities, and how we can retain its character so that people can go there and relax in safety, should be undertaken. Anybody who knows the job the students did for us in Kilkenny in the national park area survey knows that we will get a good report and a good job from them. Then we can decide on proper park management and we can ensure that this amenity is developed in a way that will best suit the needs of people of the capital city and also visitors from around the country and from abroad.

It was suggested by some Deputies that what we said about the proposed golf course sounded as if we were taking a step backwards. That is far from being true. The biggest difficulty was overcome with the very fine co-operation of the Gaelic Athletic Association and the vocational education committee. The vocational education committee had a site for the development of a large technical school in the region of what is known as The Ranch in Ballyfermot. If we were to develop an 18-hole golf course in the Phoenix Park the Office of Public Works would have to acquire this site. As it turned out, the vocational education committee felt that if they could locate their school nearer to the Islandbridge end of the Phoenix Park extension they could cater not only for students from Ballyfermot but also for students from Walkinstown, Drimnagh and Crumlin.

There is also a fully developed Gaelic athletic pitch on the site which they now occupy and which they have agreed to service and use in co-operation with the Civil Service Gaelic club. I should like to compliment these people on their co-operation. Many lettings have had to be terminated and although I have not written this to them formally yet—they may have changed their name but I know them; they were one of the first deputations I ever received back in 1955; the Inchicore Plotholders Association—I regret that it does not seem likely that we will be able to extend their tenancies. They are hard-working men and they certainly work these plots to a magnificent degree. I am looking into the possibility of finding somewhere else where they can carry out this activity but, unfortunately, I cannot say that I am very optimistic about it. Every Deputy who knows Dublin well knows that land is at a premium.

Deputy Kenny mentioned the need for guide books at national monuments. Deputy Cooney and other Deputies referred to this matter also. The need for providing guide books, photographs and so forth on the site of national monuments is appreciated, but the task of providing high quality, attractive brochures is a formidable one. Proposals are under consideration to tackle this side of our activities in an organised way, but quick and spectacular results need not be expected. It is hoped to make up what I admit is a deficiency on the sites of our national monuments gradually and steadily.

Deputy Kenny was concerned about our inland waterways. He asked about the Ballyconnell Canal. As requested by the Minister for Transport and Power, we have carried out a survey and furnished a report to him. We have so far heard nothing from the Department. The restoration of the canal is feasible and it would not be very costly. With regard to the suggestion about extending the canal to Lough Erne and ultimately linking the Shannon with Belfast, there would be greater problems to solve because arterial drainage would be involved. We would be talking in terms of millions of pounds. However, when the Ballyconnell Canal is restored, as I hope it will be, I think the natural evolution will be the eventual linking up of the canal with the Shannon. The demand for this type of facility is increasing very fast.

As far as cruiser traffic on the Shannon is concerned, our information is that the boat hirers had an excellent year despite the fact that it was not a good year for tourism generally. Apart from other considerations, cruising relieves traffic on the roads. Everyone will agree, I think, that this is an ideal form of recreation. It has resulted in a marked improvement in the economy of remote and depressed areas. I agree with the statement made by many speakers that the potential of our inland waterways as a tourist and recreational attraction cannot be overestimated.

Deputy Kenny was also concerned about Clonmacnoise. A scheme is under consideration for the provision of proper amenities. The Office of Public Works, Bord Fáilte and the county councils are co-operating in this. The county council are acquiring a site and the Office of Public Works will design a scheme for the provision of the facilities required. The matter is in hand and we hope the scheme will be executed expeditiously.

At Question Time some time ago Deputy Kenny and I had an exchange about the level of Lough Ree. I hope now to put the record straight because Deputy Kenny was not satisfied with what I had to say to him in that particular exchange. Statutory control with regard to the level of the lake rests with the Electricity Supply Board. The Minister for Transport and Power is responsible for the Electricity Supply Board. He is also responsible for Bord Fáilte. Naturally, he must weigh the views of both these bodies in the balance. Our interest is to maintain the level in the interests of the navigator and we intend to press our interest. We will back up every complaint about navigational difficulties caused by the mooring stones at Athlone. This is the situation with regard to the level of Lough Ree. Statutory control rests, as I said, with the ESB. While we are in charge of navigation, they can at any time, without consultation, decide to lower the level of the lake. A couple of years back they intended to do just that and would have done it were it not for the intervention of the Minister for Transport and Power.

Deputy Cooney had something to say also about the bye-laws on the Shannon and he advocated consultation with interested parties before bye-laws are formally adopted. We have invited observations from all interested parties. The observations received will be fully considered and, where necessary, discussions will be initiated with the interested parties because bye-laws are required to protect the rights of the people rather than to cause restrictions on their employment.

Interference with graves and vandalism generally is a very serious problem and I agree with Deputy Cooney that local vigilance is in the last analysis the best defence against unwarranted interference with our heritage. It is proposed to improve many facets of our information service and the provision of the guidebooks to which I referred earlier will be a first step in this direction.

The Deputy was concerned, too, about Athlone Castle. I understand the idea is to establish a military museum there. I am not aware that this project has been abandoned. Neither do I know if it will be proceeded with. We would be glad to know what the ideas of the local people are with regard to its future.

The Deputy was concerned about our archaeological survey. What people do not appreciate here is the great difficulty we have in recruiting the requisite technical staff. The team based outside Dublin has been reduced because one of our archaeologists resigned on marriage. We cannot prevent women getting married but we hope to replace this officer as quickly as possible. The work is progressing satisfactorily within the limits of our financial and technical resources.

There were queries about some of our national schools. Deputy Tully was concerned about the school at Duleek. Two prefabricated classrooms were erected there in the play space in front of the school. This was considered the most suitable site for the location of these classrooms. There was some difficulty about drainage. Water was lodging against the dwarf wall on which the prefabs were built. The erectors of the prefabs were then instructed to provide GT gulley traps and sumps to take away this water. The electricity supply was connected on 28th March, 1971, and the electrical contractor received a complaint on 17th November, 1971, that the heaters were not working. This complaint will be investigated on 22nd November.

I should like to deal with the proposed new school at Killbeg, County Meath. A grant was sanctioned by the Department of Education on 11th February, 1971. Sketch plans have been prepared. The manager has been asked to obtain planning permission and he is in consultation with an architect from the Office of Public Works regarding the sinking of a well. As soon as these matters have been satisfactorily dealt with the preparation of working drawings will be commenced. The estimated cost is in the region of £18,000.

The proposed new school for mildly mentally handicapped children at Ballina, County Mayo, is, I believe, the project closest to Deputy Kenny's heart. A grant was sanctioned by the Department of Education on 21st October, 1971. Outline planning permission has been obtained and preliminary drawings have been submitted by the manager's architects. These will be examined and the architects will shortly be advised as to the necessary amendments so that working drawings may be prepared and tenders invited. The estimated cost will be in the region of £38,500 and the grant will be £34,650.

Kilbride National School, County Meath, is of cross-wall construction. The nine-inch block cross-walls were erected in November, 1969, and the contractor was warned that it would be necessary to place the trussed purlins in position as soon as possible so as to brace the cross-walls. The trussed purlins were not on the site at this time; they were being made in the builder's yard. The walls were left without any bracing for a considerable time as a result of which, one stormy night, three of the cross-walls were blown down. Progress on this project was very slow and the "virtually complete" certificate which we get from time to time has not yet been certified. The contract date was 31st July, 1969, and the date of completion was 3rd July, 1970. The architect warned the contractor of the necessity to brace the unsupported cross-walls. This is a problem but it is a matter we hope to sort out soon.

Deputy Kenny complained about the delay in paying subcontractors. The payment of contractors by the Office of Public Works is made with as little delay as possible. In a number of cases the contract is placed not by the Office of Public Works but by the school manager or by the main contractor who is locally responsible. While there have been some complaints in the past about final payments the matter has been cleared up completely in the last year. There should be no complaint now but if the Deputy is aware of any such complaints I should be pleased if he would let me know and naturally I shall have them looked into.

I was asked about the £2,000 expenditure on Leinster House. This sum resulted from the paying off of some final accounts which were not received in time to be paid last year.

I agree that the entrance to Leinster House presents many problems especially on days like Budget Day when many people wish to come and view the activities of the House. While this is not entirely a matter for the Office of Public Works we have looked into the matter. We have come up against security problems and aesthetic problems. We have written to the Clerk of the Dáil and I quote part of that letter:

We refer to your letter of 4 Samhain, 1970, about the possibility of improving the Waiting Room at the Kildare Street entrance to Leinster House, and to say that we accept your view that any attempt to enlarge the existing structure laterally might meet with objections. These objections could be reinforced by the unbalancing effect on the appearance of the entrance, viewed either from the street or from Leinster House, if the other lodge were not also extended. In addition, it would be necessary to remove the existing large tree, an act which in itself might draw critical comment.

We concluded by saying:

Should you consider that a discussion of the problem generally with our Architect would be helpful we would be happy to arrange for his attendance.

The Clerk of the Dáil has not invited us to send our architect to discuss this matter. It is a matter largely for the Committee of Procedure and Privileges in consultation with the officers of the House, the senior officer being the Ceann Comhairle. If people are worried about these complaints, I suggest that they pursue the matter in this way. We have communicated with the Clerk of the Dáil and at all times an architect from the Office of Public Works will be available.

We have again the hardy annual, the temperature complaints. The position is that the new office block is air-conditioned and this is controlled automatically to give conditions, namely, temperature and relative humidity, which are suitable to most people. Unfortunately it is not possible to vary these conditions for individual rooms in the building and some people favour conditions different from those favoured by the majority. The balance of Leinster House is heated by hot water radiators, some installed and in operation for many years, and some installed in recent years following structural alterations carried out when the new office block was completed. There is no temperature control or humidity control system provided in this part of the system.

That is painfully obvious.

It might be possible to fit thermostatic radiator valves to a number of radiators in this section of the building. These would provide a measure of temperature control and would certainly help to prevent excessively high temperatures. These would have to be fitted during the autumn heating season.

The Dáil Chamber is heated by warmed air and is provided with extract fans to provide adequate fresh air. This system is not controlled thermostatically, but is carefully watched during the sittings and suitably adjusted to prevent excessive temperatures during the heating season. The Chamber can, however, become excessively hot during the summer months, generally for a few days only, because no cooling facilities are available.

It can also become draughty, of which the Parliamentary Secretary is I am sure aware, as it is at this particular moment, over here.

I will not delay the Deputy. The Public Gallery in this House has accommodation for 132 people, and on occasions nearly as many people again can be accommodated, standing behind the seating. In normal conditions, entrance to and egress from the Gallery is via one wide double door at one end of the Gallery. From this door visitors come or go by a staircase in the Press block which leads directly to the outside. The double door to the Gallery which I have referred to has always been there, but the staircase which is of incombustible construction, is a new one, provided as part of the scheme of alterations and additions. In addition to the normal exit, there had been an emergency exit in the centre of the Public Gallery. This was removed under the alteration scheme and replaced by a new emergency exit in a more suitable position near the opposite end of the Gallery. Although this exit has to be kept locked for security reasons, there is a key kept in a glass case beside the door for use in emergency. There is always an usher on duty in the gallery who is briefed on what to do in an emergency. In addition, on specified occasions when big numbers are anticipated, such as on Budget day, a member of the fire picket is stationed beside this door with a spare key in the lock.

Deputy Tully complained that we had not made good the fire damage in Iveagh House. The repairs of the fire damage are finished for at least three months, he will be glad to hear. He was anxious to know what new provisions were being made for Kildare Street. The money for this is for a new roof in particular, the biggest part of the expenditure, fire precaution works and improved heating and lighting. He also inquired about an office being built in Monaghan. This office has been finished and is now occupied by the local employees of the Department of Education. The new building in Drogheda to be built on the site of the old Custom House will provide accommodation for all Government staffs in the town, excluding, of course, the Garda and Posts and Telegraphs staff.

Deputy Tully also referred to a plot adjoining the ball alley at Dunshaughlin Garda station, on part of which Meath County Council applied many years ago for the erection of a fire station. The request had to be refused by the Office of Public Works because the Department of Justice considered that the entire site should be reserved for Garda purposes. The county council have not re-opened the matter since, but if they wish to do so, the Office of Public Works will be quite prepared to ask the Department of Justice to reconsider the position.

I think I have covered nearly all the main matters raised, but if I have overlooked something, I shall be only too happy to answer Deputies personally, if they make inquiry. I hope I have dealt with most of the points raised and I commend the Estimate to the House.

I did not hear all the reply and the Parliamentary Secretary may have dealt with it, but there was a reference to the President Kennedy memorial. Was the Parliamentary Secretary referring to the Kennedy concert hall?

Yes. The position is that the Committee has met and made a report to the Minister, and in reply to questions not very long ago, the Minister said that he intends making recommendation to the Government in the near future.

I trust that it will be expedited.

I agree.

Vote put and agreed to.
The Dáil adjourned at 8.40 p.m. until 3 p.m. on Tuesday, 23rd November, 1971.
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