asked the Minister for Labour if it is proposed to issue a White Paper setting out the policy of the Government in relation to increased worker participation in decision-making in industry.
26.
Ceisteanna—Questions. Oral Answers. - Worker Participation in Industry.
25.
asked the Minister for Labour if his Department is currently studying the policies and practices of the Governments of Germany and Norway in relation to the extension of worker participation; and, if so, whether it is proposed to take steps to introduce similar policies in this country.
With your permission, a Cheann Comhairle, I propose to take Questions Nos. 25 and 26 together.
Information on developments in other countries on what is described as worker participation is available to me.
My attitude is that, if suitable forms of this are to be developed in this country, it would be better that they should emerge and grow from the working of the normal processes of consultation and bargaining between employers and trade unions without interference by the State.
I believe, too, that better long-term results are likely to be achieved in this field through first negotiating workable arrangements at shop-floor level and subsequently building on the experience thus gained.
A White Paper on the matter is not contemplated at this time.
In relation to the encouragement of this major innovation in Norway and Germany is it possible that in respect of State sponsored bodies the Minister might conceivably exercise some responsibility and take some initiative in developing these forms rather than expect them to sprout in the year 1990 from the consciousness of Irish people? Could we have a more serious reply from the Minister to a question of that nature?
The opportunity is there with semi-State bodies.
Is the Minister aware that the law which is being abolished in the EEC for multi-national companies will have provisions specifically for worker participation and that that law will apply to this country? Would he not consider, therefore, that it is likely with the harmonisation of company law within the EEC worker participation will become something which will be almost mandatory? Would he not consider now is the time to think about what we should be doing to adapt ourselves in this regard?
Could the Minister not see the Minister for Transport and Power and ask him to introduce it in the ESB as was recommended in the Fogarty Report?
That is one useful form.
Does the Minister distinguish between industrial relations and industrial democracy? Industrial relations is something which can be employed both by the employers and the trade unions in the workshops and in the offices but industrial democracy means participation by the workers. Will the Minister say whether or not he has read the Labour Party policy document on industrial democracy?
And the Fine Gael one, too.
Question No. 27.
After reading both documents, I still find it very difficult to appreciate what form of industrial democracy they are advocating.
(Interruptions.)
I was asked about a dozen supplementaries and I am trying to answer some of them. Deputy Corish asked me if I was distinguishing between machinery for negotiating disputes and that of participation. I know there is a difference between the joint industrial council and the workers council. I would prefer that it would evolve from works councils. While it has been said that we are not interested, I want to say that I am deeply interested but I have not any great pressure from workers or trade unions in this matter. Any participation that will evolve from the present system of having works councils established—a number of firms already have them— will be welcomed and will be more effective due to its evolving by mutual consent and agreement rather than being enforced by me. We are in constant touch with the ILO and with the OECD. Both of these have a very fixed conception of worker participation not in line with what the Deputies have been talking about.
What about semi-State bodies?
The Minister said there was no great pressure from trade unions. What greater pressure could the Minister have than resolutions passed unanimously by the various trade unions and the Irish Congress of Trade Unions with regard to this matter? Do you want them to picket your office or your home or something like that?
Question No. 27.
As I said before, there is a variety of suggested participation ranging from extreme Marxism to mere communications. Nobody has yet quite pointed out at what level it is wanted.
If there are doubts in relation to any part of our policy document come up and talk to us about it.
We will settle for a small bit of republicanism and the Minister can forget about his Marxism. In the hope of trying to develop a better society in this country, would the Minister even agree to set up a national working party to look into the question of both employer and trade union organisations with a view to putting forward practical joint proposals for the implementation of these measures? The Minister's confusion might be dispelled in that manner and we might have some elementary piece of legislation.
The Deputy is making a speech.
I should like to add to what I have already said for Deputy Desmond's benefit that workers and management have very much dialogue in this country at present and they are the people who can best evolve worker participation.
The State are not doing anything.
I will be very glad to help them in any way I can. The only thing I am worried about is that if some types of participation which I have been studying and which have emerged from some sources which have been mentioned here were put into effect we would have no trade unions at all. We would have no need for them.
The remaining questions will appear on tomorrow's Order Paper.
With your permission, a Cheann Comhairle, I should like to raise on the Adjournment the matter of the series of accidents on the Inchicore Road, Dublin, and especially the very serious one that occurred yesterday.
The Chair will communicate with Deputy O'Connell.