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Dáil Éireann debate -
Tuesday, 25 Jan 1972

Vol. 258 No. 3

Electoral Amendment Bill, 1971: Second Stage.

Tairgim:

Go léafar an Bille den Tarna Uair anois.

Mar is eol do Theachtaí tugadh cúis os chomhair na gCúirteanna a rá go bhfuil forálacha áirithe den dlí a bhaineann le toghcháin in achrann le hAirteagal 16 den Bhunreacht a deireann gur le rún-bhallóid a déanfar an vótáil i dtoghcháin do Dháil Éireann. Faoin dlí mar atá sí faoi láthair, caithfear uimhir an vótálaithe a scríobh ar chomhdhuille an pháipéar ballóide a tugtar dó; caithfear an sraithuimhir chéanna a bheith ar an bpáipéar ballóide agus ar an gcomhdhuille; caithfear na páipéirí ballóide agus na comhdhuilleanna a choimeád ar feadh bliana agus d'féadfaí na caipéisí seo a scrúdú ar ordú ón Dáil nó ón Árdchúirt. Dúradh go bhféadfaí trín chleachtadh seo an páipéar ballóide a úsáidigh vótálaí ar bith a chur in aithint agus go bhféadfaí a fháil amach chonas a chaith sé a vóta. Uime sin, dúradh go raibh an cleachtadh in achrann leis an bhforáil faoi rún-bhallóid sa Bhunreacht. D'aontaigh an Ardchúirt go raibh altanna áirithe den dlí toghchánach neamhbhunreachtúil agus tar éis achomharc an Árd-Aighne a mheas chinntigh an Chúirt Uachtarach an bhreith seo.

The purpose of this short Bill is to deal with the situation arising from the Supreme Court decision on the secrecy of the ballot. The effect of a declaration of unconstitutionality is to remove from the law the provisions declared to be unconstitutional, and the law, excluding such provisions, continues to have effect. The Dáil electoral law must therefore now be read as excluding the particular provisions found to be unconstitutional and at future Dáil elections the elector's number may not be written on the counterfoil of the ballot paper, but procedure otherwise —including the provision for serial numbers on the ballot papers and counterfoils—will remain unaltered. Amendment of the Dáil electoral law is not, therefore, essential and an election could be held without amending the law but it is desirable that it should be tidied up.

The law relating to Presidential and Seanad elections was not at issue on the court case but a procedure identical with the Dáil election procedure for entering the elector's number on the counterfoil of his ballot paper is contained in each of these codes. The Constitution provides that voting at Presidential and Seanad elections shall be by secret ballot and difficulty would, therefore, arise in relation to the conduct of these elections. It would clearly be improper to comply with procedure which has been found to be unconstitutional in the context of Dáil elections, but clear authority to depart from this procedure would be lacking. It is necessary, therefore, to amend the law before a Presidential or Seanad election can be held.

The Referendum Acts also contain provision for inserting the elector's number on the counterfoil of his ballot paper. While there is no specific provision in the Constitution requiring that referenda be conducted by secret ballot, it is clearly desirable that a vote at a referendum should enjoy the same protection of secrecy as a vote at a Dáil. Presidential or Seanad election and the Bill also proposes to amend the procedure at a referendum. Detailed procedure at local elections is contained in regulations and it is proposed to amend these regulations before the next local elections.

The courts did not advert to another procedure in the electoral law by which a ballot paper could conceivably be traced back to an individual elector after the election. This procedure is contained in the postal voting rules which are common to Dáil and Presidential elections and referenda. In accordance with this procedure the form of receipt signed by the postal voter indicates the serial number of the ballot paper received by him. As in the case of other election documents the receipts are retained for a year and it would be possible by reference to the receipts and the ballot papers to find out how an individual elector voted.

It would, of course, be necessary to have an order from the Dáil or the High Court to obtain access to these documents. However, the provisions found unconstitutional by the courts were struck down not on the basis that there was likelihood that the manner in which an elector voted could be ascertained but on the ground that there was a theoretical possibility, however remote, that this could be done. Accordingly, under the arrangement proposed in the Bill a postal voter will in future simply acknowledge receipt of a ballot paper without specifying the number of such ballot paper. The Bill also makes the necessary minor consequential changes in the postal voting rules. Corresponding changes are proposed in the procedure at Seanad elections where voting is entirely by post.

Deputies are no doubt familiar with the system of voting for the election of Panel members to the Seanad. The elector is required to produce his voting papers to a prescribed person, that is to say the Clerk or Clerk Assistant of the Dáil or Seanad. County Registrar, City or County Manager, County Secretary or Garda Superintendent, who witnesses the elector's signature on the declaration of identity and signs a certificate which is then attached to the envelope sent to the Seanad Returning Officer. The purpose of this arrangement is to make it impossible for anybody other than the elector to whom the particular ballot papers were sent to vote by means of these ballot papers.

This safeguard will be somewhat weakened by the fact that the declaration of identity and the ballot paper envelope will no longer show the serial number of the ballot papers. Subsection 5 (e) of the Bill seeks to remedy this by requiring the prescribed person to destroy each outer envelope, that is to say, the envelope addressed to the elector, produced to him and thus ensure that an elector, having already voted by means of his own papers, cannot subsequently produce his own outer envelope and another elector's ballot papers to a second prescribed person.

It will be seen that the Bill prescribes new forms of ballot papers for use at Dáil and presidential elections and referenda. These new forms are identical with the forms at present prescribed except that the space for the insertion of the voter's number on the counterfoil has been removed.

Some wrong impressions seem to have gone abroad about the effect of the court ruling and I would like to correct these. The only procedure found to be unconstitutional was the practice of writing the elector's number on the counterfoil of his ballot paper. The courts were also invited to declare it unconstitutional to have serial numbers on ballot papers and counterfoils but did not do so. The serial number will, therefore, be staying. It has been said also that it will now be impossible to prevent or detect personation. This is quite incorrect. In the future as in the past, the prevention of personation will depend on the vigilance of presiding officers, personation agents and gardaí present at polling stations. In the future as in the past, conviction for personation will depend on the evidence of these officers and agents. The only difference now is that it will no longer be possible for an election court trying an election petition to identify and exclude corrupt votes and order a new count to be carried out excluding such votes. To put this in perspective, it should be remembered that we have not had a Parliamentary election petition since the State was founded.

I have no doubt that the House appreciates the importance of having these necessary amendments to the various electoral codes effected as quickly as possible and I am confident that the House will see fit to give the measure a quick passage. The Bill is purely a technical measure, its sole purpose being to deal with the situation arising from the Supreme Court ruling, and on this basis I commend it to the House.

We welcome this Bill which, as the Minister has pointed out, is simply a technical measure. In certain areas there has been some element of doubt expressed from time to time regarding the secrecy of the ballot. Because voting papers may be retained for a certain period this did not help to eliminate the doubt that existed, particularly in small rural areas. The removal of the voter's number from the counterfoil of the ballot paper will remove all doubts regarding the secrecy of the ballot.

Heretofore the system was that the counterfoil had a number and there was a corresponding number on the back of the voting paper. The presiding officer put down the number given on the voters' list on a special part of the counterfoil so that theoretically one could trace how a person had voted. This left a certain amount of doubt in the minds of the public.

I have never understood why it was necessary to put this number on the back of the ballot paper. Apparently this practice had been adopted since the foundation of the State. The Minister has not made any observation as to why it was thought necessary to do this during the years but now it is deemed unconstitutional. This measure will cover Dáil and Seanad elections, presidential elections and referenda but there is no mention of voting in county council elections.

That is not covered by legislation. It is covered by regulations which will be adjusted.

I did not understand that. However, I take it that the same provisions will extend to county council elections?

Can the Minister state if it will be possible in future to put down the voter's number on the brown cards which are sent to the electorate before the elections telling them where they are to vote? I expect it will be possible to do that and I consider it desirable that it should be done. Perhaps the Minister will tell us if this will be done; if not, perhaps something could be done to keep that form of notification because it is helpful.

I note from the Minister's statement that the only part of the procedure deemed to be unconstitutional was the practice of writing the elector's number on the counterfoil of his ballot paper. However, there will still be a number on the back of the voting paper——

And a corresponding number on the counterfoil.

I think it is only fair to say that voting is now untraceable, even though there is the same number on the counterfoil and on the back of the voting paper.

I beg to differ with the Deputy. The voting is not untraceable because there are personation agents in the polling booths, as the Deputy knows.

They will not know the number of the ballot paper issued to any individual.

Of course they will. The papers start at a certain number and end at a certain number. The Parliamentary Secretary is the most innocent man in the world when it suits him.

I should like the Minister to tell us why it is necessary that the number should be on the papers. I do not see any great objection to having the number on the counterfoil——

Why is it necessary to have the number on the ballot paper?

I should like the Minister to tell us why it is deemed necessary to have numbers in sequence on the counterfoils and on the back of voting papers. If the Minister intends to put the number on the voting paper, why not put it on the front of the paper. It appears to me that there is still an element of secrecy or deception about it. If there is a good and valid reason for retaining the number, perhaps the Minister would tell us.

I did not know that the placing of numbers was not unconstitutional. The unconstitutional factor was writing the elector's number on the counterfoil. I take it that the Minister could have dropped the matter of having numbers on the back of the voting papers if he wished. I am sure he has given this matter consideration and I should like to hear him explain the reason for the continuance of this practice.

It never ceases to astound me how decent and simple are the Fine Gael Party about matters relating to elections and how astute and what shrewd operators are Fianna Fáil. We have had a speech from Deputy Hogan which indicates clearly that Fine Gael really believes men are honest but to my mind this Bill clearly indicates that Fianna Fáil are not honest. We have had this time and again. We had the Electoral Act of 1959, the Bill dealing with the constituencies, the various referenda, all showing that the only desire of the Fianna Fáil Party is to be dishonest. Their only fundamental desire is to be dishonest if they can.

That is a disgraceful thing for the Deputy to say.

It is not disgraceful if the Minister will allow me to say so.

What is worse is that the Deputy probably believes it.

It has been proved time and again in the courts. They have been shot down time and again by the courts and they will be shot down again.

The Deputy's statement is disgraceful.

Is it disgraceful? I do not believe that this Bill answers the question. If the Minister were honest he would have instructed his civil servants to produce a Bill providing that there would be a number on the counterfoil but no number on the ballot paper. Did he do that? Of course he did not. The method of identifying how people vote is not what is written down because there is a personation agent there. Which party created the impression that the ballot was not secret? Will the Minister answer that? He will not answer it because he cannot.

The Deputy is being childish.

I am not being childish. The Minister is a "babby". He is well known to be a "babby". This has been called a kiddies' Government and there is no greater kiddy in the Government than the Minister.

Most of the baby talk is coming from the Deputy.

The Deputy was some kid himself in his day.

I hope I am not scraping too close to the bone.

If there is no number on the ballot paper what do you do with illegal ballot papers shoved in?

There is the stamp.

What does the Parliamentary Secretary mean by "illegal ballot papers shoved in"?

Anyone can get unnumbered ballot papers printed.

Is there not a presiding officer? Is it not his business to look after that? The ballot box is beside him. Can he not insist that the person shows him whether he has a ballot paper.

What happens if somebody hands in three or four similar papers printed in the same way and stamped? How do you differentiate?

I do not understand the Deputy. How does anybody hand in three or four ballot papers?

There must be safeguards against that.

If the Deputy is now admitting that this is the kind of thing Fianna Fáil have been doing I will buy that.

The Deputy is making the charge that the Fianna Fáil Party are filling up these voting papers. That should be withdrawn.

I certainly will not withdraw it. I saw clear evidence of it in a by-election in West Limerick.

That was the Deputy's first time in West Limerick and it will be his last.

Let us get back to the Second Stage of the Bill.

I am on the Bill. I am too close to the bone on the Bill. That is why they are shouting.

Notice taken that 20 Members were not present; House counted and 20 Members being present,

I was dealing with the question as to why there should be any number on the ballot paper and alternatively why should there be any number on the counterfoil. What is the point? If there is no number on the counterfoil the presiding officer can count the number of ballot papers he has issued and give a certificate to that effect. If there is any discrepancy in the ballot box that can cause a difficulty. Quite frankly, it is just as dishonest, coming from the Fianna Fáil Party, as the attitude to the law was coming from the Fianna Fáil Party. Who said all around the country that how people voted was known?

Mr. Browne

What difference would it make to have a number on the ballot paper if the voter's number was not on it?

There is a personating agent at the table. The Deputy is not as simple as he pretends. The Fianna Fáil Party are not nearly as simple or as ignorant about elections as they pretend. The other day the Minister for Transport and Power said: "We have doctorates in elections". I am sure they have. They know more about how to manipulate elections than any other party in almost any other part of the world.

The Deputy means how to win elections.

How to manipulate elections.

That is an insult to the Irish people.

I am delighted to have this audience. It is an audience that is worth talking to, unlike last week when the only person on the Fianna Fáil benches during my contribution to the debate on unemployment was the Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister for Local Government.

Wait until the next time that the Labour benches are empty.

A worthwhile audience such as this brings the debate to life. It is not the kind of pretence that one usually associates with the Government Party. They have no interest in what takes place in this country. The civil servants tell the Government what to do and if the Government decide to take their advice that is that. The only function that ordinary Deputies have is to walk through the Division Lobby.

This happens to be the Supreme Court on this occasion.

Let me say that I did not take very much interest in this case and I did not realise that it was only the writing on the ballot paper of the elector's number that caused the entire system to be ruled unconstitutional. I do not mind admitting that I understood this was due to the fact that there was a number printed both on the counterfoil and on the ballot paper. In spite of all the codology going on here this afternoon, it must be admitted that it is as easy to track a ballot from the number printed on the counterfoil as it is to track it from the number printed on the ballot paper.

Tell us about it.

It is quite easy.

I have told you already. There would be no trouble in doing so at the count. The Parliamentary Secretary will continue in East Donegal to tell the people that the manner in which they voted can be ascertained.

I have never said that to anyone in my life nor do I ever intend saying it to anyone.

The Parliamentary Secretary will get an opportunity of making his contribution.

Fianna Fáil have a very shrewd method of operating. The big shots in the party never put themselves out on a limb but they always have little men to do the job for them and that is why——

That is why we are here.

That is not why Deputy Browne is here. He will not walk me up that garden path. I have never given reasons as to why any particular individual is here.

We would not know about these matters down in Wexford.

At least the Fianna Fáil people in Wexford have shown more independence than those in other parts of the country. It suits Fianna Fáil to be able to say: "We will know how you vote and if you vote against us you will not be given a job on the roads next time you are unemployed" or to say: "You are due for a gangership but you will not be promoted if you vote against us". It would not be anyone such as Deputy Connolly who would say something like that. It would be done much more subtly.

Did the Deputy not endeavour to get a foot in in Leix-Offaly at one stage? He was sent back, though.

The Deputy has not seen the last of me so far as Leix-Offaly is concerned.

Acting Chairman

Deputy Connolly, too, will have an opportunity of making his contribution later.

Deputy O'Donovan made a violent attack on Deputy Connolly.

What I meant was that a decent man like Deputy Connolly would not put himself out on a limb. This Bill is all very well but it does not deal in any way with the fundamental problem. According to the Minister's brief, this Bill is for the purpose of complying with the decision of the Supreme Court. In the section of the Department of Local Government which deals with elections, did it not occur to anybody to reconsider the whole matter? I am sure it must have occurred to somebody. I hope civil servants adopt the same attitude towards problems now as they did when I was there: that was that they gave them much thought. Therefore, I have no doubt that other points were put to the Minister but he did not seem to bother about them because it suits Fianna Fáil to operate in that way.

It cannot be said that I have ever made allegations against Fianna Fáil but I stand over the allegation that it was they who were responsible for telling the people in the West of Ireland that it would be easy to ascertain how they voted.

It is true.

Fairy tales.

We are told in the Minister's speech that detailed procedures at local elections contain regulations and that it is proposed to amend these before the next local elections. This House has certain rights regarding regulations, and all I can say is that since the local elections are due to be held in June next the Minister will be pushed hard to get through these regulations before then.

They are not being held in June.

Of course, they can be postponed. However, Deputy L'Estrange is making an allegation now and that is something that is not allowed in this House. We here are all honourable and decent men and we must not make allegations or anything of that nature.

In relation to the Seanad elections which, from a political point of view, do not count a great deal, I notice that great care is to be taken to ensure that voting cannot be traced. Therefore, if a man promises to vote for "Mr. A" but if "Mr. A" suspects him subsequently, he will have no means of ascertaining whether his suspicions were justified. We are told that subsection (5) (e) of the Bill seeks to remedy this by requiring the prescribed person to destroy each outer envelope, that is, the envelope addressed to the elector, and thus ensure that an elector, having voted already by means of his own paper, cannot produce subsequently his own outer envelope with another elector's ballot paper to a second prescribed person. This shows that thought was given to the system in the Department of Local Government and I do not believe that thought was not given to the point I made earlier in this discussion. Therefore, recommendations must have been made to the Minister but, no doubt, the Minister saw fit not to accept them. We are told that the only procedure found to be unconstitutional was the practice of writing the elector's number on the counterfoil of his ballot paper. This was the case that was made to the court. We are told that the court were invited also to take into consideration the question of numbers on ballot papers but that they did not do so. In other words, all the Government are prepared to do is to accept the decision of the court in relation to the net matter on which the court decided and they do not have any thought themselves in relation to a much more serious matter. I do not believe the practice of writing the person's voting number on the counterfoil is a serious matter at all because the only case in which it could come up would be where there was a petition about an election and, as the Minister said correctly, there has been no petition in this country since 1923. No election has been petitioned, though indeed we have had a few long counts. The Minister says:

The serial numbers will, therefore, be staying.

This does not surprise me. This Government are so conservative that they never move at all. The Minister also said:

It has been said also that it will now be impossible to detect personation. This is quite incorrect.

I do not know who said this but I do not think the ballot papers were ever used to detect personation. I do not see what it has to do with the ballot papers.

This Bill implements the decision of the court—I admit that—but apart from that it is a pretence and an absolute cod. The Bill is just a joke and is typical of people who carry out something in which they are not particularly interested because it might cut the ground from under them. The pretence that is brought to bear on the voters in the more remote parts of rural Ireland——

You would never reach the quota then.

I think very often they do not reach the quota down in that part of the country. This is not an honest Bill. It is a typical example of the way the Fianna Fáil Party behave when they are put in a spot. They always try to get out of it one way or another. The same applies to the other Bill coming up this evening. They realise that the correct thing to do would be to have a referendam on going into the Common Market as a straight issue and then referenda about the Constitution. No. The ikey stunt was thought up to have only one referendum and abolish the Constitution. If the Constitution is abolished this whole thing will go.

(Interruptions.)

Deputy Connolly is quite wrong. I did appeal to the courts and it was neither popular nor profitable. I do not remember that I ever got any pats on the back. I think I got more compliments and congratulations from the Fianna Fáil Party than I did from the other parties in the House, to be fair to them. I think they admired the kind of effort that they approve of in an individual. Let us be fair to them about that. It is not right for Deputy Connolly to suggest that I am not interested in this because I am interested, being a genuine democrat and having always maintained that, whatever decision the people come to, the people are right.

The Deputy did not think they were always right.

It was the former leader of the Fianna Fáil Party who said that in public.

Looking into his own heart.

Acting Chairman

Let us get back to the Bill. Deputy O'Donovan.

The people have no right to do wrong.

There was a dispute recently as to whether he said: "The people have no right to be wrong" or "The people have no right to do wrong". To the best of my recollection it was "The people have no right to do wrong" but I think it means the same. Fianna Fáil Deputies need not pretend that I am not honest about this. I certainly am, but I will not lay my head on a block about it. No sensible man will do that twice in one lifetime. Once is enough.

Not three times anyway.

This is not an honest Bill. If the Minister for Local Government had approached this in an honourable way nobody would have supported him more than myself. I would not have said one word about the Bill if it had been approached in an honest, upright way. It is the duty of a Government to keep the laws going correctly and, if a defect is found, to remedy it. There is a defect here and the real defect has not been remedied.

I should like to welcome this Bill. It is a short Bill and it has been brought in to deal with the situation arising from the Supreme Court decision on the secrecy of the ballot. Everyone who is over 21 and entitled to vote believes that there should be complete secrecy of the ballot. When people vote, whether at local elections, referenda or Dáil elections, their votes should be cast in complete secrecy. I understand that the present system of election in regard to secrecy has been in operation here since 1923. It has continued under our 1937 Constitution. We have had changes of Government during that period and no Government made the changes which are proposed now. These proposals came about as a result of a petition to the Supreme Court and they are in line with the Supreme Court decision.

I find it hard to understand why Deputy O'Donovan says that the Bill is just a joke and that it is dishonest. When the Government bring in a Bill they know well that it is the right of any individual to appeal to the courts and to appeal to the Supreme Court. That court has shown that it is completely impartial. It has made many decisions against Acts which have been passed here, and that is as it should be. The Minister introduced this short Bill to bring the law into line with one of their latest decisions.

The Minister said that the courts were also invited to declare it unconstitutional to have serial numbers on ballot papers and counterfoils but did not do so. Up to now a person's number was recorded on the ballot paper and also on the counterfoil.

Not on the ballot paper.

On the counterfoil. There is a little weakness here and it is the question of how one is to identify corrupt practices. It depends on the evidence of personating agents, Garda officers or presiding officers. Under the old system it was probably easier, having the number on the counterfoil. From now on it will be difficult, but the Supreme Court gave a decision. It was also invited to give further decisions which it did not give. This Bill just goes as far as to comply with the Supreme Court decision. Surely nobody can say that it is dishonest to bring in a Bill to comply with a Supreme Court decision.

Would the Deputy not say that it is a niggardly Bill?

It is a necessary Bill.

As they say in religion: "There is no point in being holier than the Church itself." This is a short Bill. It should not have been held up. It is important. If one wanted to find out how somebody voted it would be very difficult. There is no use in saying there are people going around the country who say they know how people voted. That is all codology. There are very few people who know how the next person votes.

Has it happened?

It has not.

I know it has happened.

There is no good in saying that it is Members on this side of the House who do it. People may have tried it in the past but they were outside the House, not in it.

They would not try it in mid-Cork.

The whole thing is ridiculous. People have more commonsense. Everybody prides himself that his vote is secret. The ballot paper is marked, it is folded and it is put into the box. That is complete secrecy.

I have no respect at all for the common man as an individual in the sense that he can be talked into it in the local pub.

That is an amazing statement. You are saying that you have no respect for a common man's intelligence—that he does not know how he will vote.

Acting Chairman

Will the Deputy address the Chair?

Deputy O'Donovan was saying he had no respect for the common man's intelligence in regard to the way he will vote and whether he will vote in secret. The Deputy thinks there can be skulduggery in this.

Can he be pressurised?

Not at all. People are completely independent. We have come to the stage where all the people are equal.

It is mid-Cork the Deputy is talking about.

A person knows when he puts his vote into the box that that box will be opened the next morning and that the votes in it will be counted. The box will be turned upside down, the ballot papers will be straightened out by the sorters and then they will be counted. Is that not the system of counting?

Acting Chairman

Will Deputy Meaney address the Chair?

Deputy O'Donovan and I are friends and we like discussions now and again.

Acting Chairman

Outside the House, please.

I am trying to point out that you cannot identify how a person votes and Deputy O'Donovan is saying the opposite. The votes are counted and the law provides that the papers are kept for 12 months and that access can be had to them through a certain process of law. I cannot recall that having been done. This Bill is in complete line with the Supreme Court decision. The Minister has stated that the courts were properly invited to make further declarations but that they did not do so. I have no doubt that at the next election everything will be in order.

This Bill is necessary because of the Supreme Court decision on the secrecy of the ballot. I welcome it but I am afraid it does not go far enough. I agree we have publicminded people in this country who are interested in fair play and justice and, despite what I might say about some justices and judges, we still have an independent Judiciary, particularly in the Supreme Court. The Minister said that the courts were invited to declare unconstitutional the practice of having serial numbers on ballot papers but that they did not do so. I do not know why it is necessary to have these numbers. The Department must have had some doubts because it is provided here:

The back of each ballot paper shall be numbered consecutively and the back of the counterfoil attached to it is to bear the same number. The number on the back of the ballot paper shall be printed in the smallest characters compatible with legibility.

Who is to decide that? Will there be specific instructions to every returning officer? Will the Minister give definite instructions on that?

In any case, it seems the Department had doubts when they decided to have the numbers printed on the back of the ballot papers. On the ordinary ballot papers there will be the numbers and the words "an election for the constituency of". Why is that necessary? I am not at all satisfied that votes cannot be traced. Under this system a personating agent in a particular booth will know the number of every person who votes. I know that from past experience. I have been director of elections in eight or ten constituencies. In a particular booth a series starts at I and ends at 100. The personating officer can put down in rotation how the people vote. He can see that No. 6 on the register voted first. No. 15 voted second and No. 13 third. He could tell you the number.

The Deputy is assuming that each block of papers starts with No. 1.

I am not assuming anything. The personating officer is beside the presiding officer. He can get his own ballot paper—personating officers usually vote in that particular booth. He sees that he is No. 34 on the register. He notes the start of the serial number and he can get the registered number of every person who votes.

In that block of 100, anyway.

They are sitting beside the presiding officer and they can see the votes coming in. It can be done. There is another matter. It is easy to think that the stamp should be sufficient but I am surprised the Minister did not go further in this Bill and introduce a proper stamp. At every count there is arguing and bickering about the stamp. The stamp should be capable of cutting a hole into the paper.

They will not go to the expense.

They will not press the stamp sufficiently.

A lot of these stamps are too old.

It is a pity the Minister has not gone further and provided for the introduction of a stamp that would perforate the paper. Deputy O'Donovan said there are astute operators in Fianna Fáil and I agree entirely with him. He said Fine Gael had indicated that the people are honest. We made that mistake, because anybody as long in politics as I am knows how astute Fianna Fáil are at election time. I was interested to hear Deputy Meaney say that votes cannot be identified but I know people in rural areas of Ireland who think the opposite.

Deputy O'Donovan hinted at this being all codology. The Minister for Local Government said it was disgraceful to make such allegations. A Minister for Local Government before the present Minister had a county council lorry going around the county with 37 to 40 road workers personating at one pooling booth after another. That is true. Some of them swore affidavits afterwards about that incident. It did not happen too far from the present chairman's constituency.

Acting Chairman

This is not covered in the Bill.

It may not be covered in the Bill but this skulduggery goes on.

They do not do it in Galway.

Here in the city of Dublin personation goes on at an alarming rate. I saw people going into houses and coming out having changed their clothes and put on wigs, hats and old skirts. The Parliamentary Secretary may laugh at this but Fianna Fáil have carried on in this manner at by-elections in this city and elsewhere.

Acting Chairman

Deputy L'Estrange must get back to the Bill.

There are peculiar members of the electorate everywhere.

Peculiar or otherwise, they have swung elections for the Fianna Fáil Party with such behaviour.

The Deputy missed the point.

They have won elections by their carry-on. The vote should be secret. I want the House to put an end to the despicable aspects of such conduct by unscrupulous Fianna Fáil people. Such people, Mafia from the Parliamentary Secretary's county, went around in the dead of night— Deputy O'Donovan mentioned this earlier—in Sligo Leitrim, Roscommon, Donegal, west Limerick, Kerry and Wicklow. The Mafia may be broken up now because Deputy Andrews does not agree with Deputy Blaney who was one of the principal organisers—and a useful one—in the party in bygone days. They went to the homes of widows at night and told them to vote for "so-and-so" or their pensions would be stopped. They told them that they would find out who they voted for and that if they had not voted for Fianna Fáil they would lose their pensions. They also went to the road workers at the dead of night and said that they would find out who they voted for and that if they had not voted for Fianna Fáil they would lose their work on the roads. They went to forestry workers and to Land Commission workers throughout the country. This is very well known and if this Bill does nothing more than put an end to that despicable practice, which has gone on for far too long, it will be doing something worthwhile.

I am not satisfied. I want the Minister to arrange to take the numbers off the ballot papers altogether and to arrange for a proper stamper so that we will not have the trouble which we have had at previous elections. I have seen arguments going on for hours over stampers. A stamp should be made which would perforate the voting papers.

I would like to support Deputy O'Donovan and Deputy L'Estrange. I am glad there are some people who have sufficient interest in the practice of politics, which are at their lowest ebb, so that they are prepared to come into this Chamber and discuss this Bill. I was afraid when I saw this Bill that it would pass through the House in five minutes because it is a small technical Bill. I am glad that that has not happened. An opportunity has been given to talk here about the Bill and, with the leave of the Chair, about some ancillary matters connected with this Bill.

I would like to point out that this Bill was not brought before us by a reforming Fianna Fáil Government which recognised the defects in the electoral system. It has been brought before us reluctantly by the present Minister for Local Government who has been forced to do so by the Supreme Court. I do not think this Bill goes far enough but I would like to commend the public spiritedness of the private citizens who took the action which, in the first instance, compelled the Minister for Local Government to come into this Chamber and bring this Bill before us. I agree completely with Deputy O'Donovan and with Deputy L'Estrange in that I do not think this Bill goes far enough.

No election is ever completely crystalline, spotless and pure. We, as a small party, face the enormous financial advantage which the Fianna Fáil Party with their secret reservoirs of big industrial funds have at election times. The extent of their resources in the form of cars, loudspeakers, posters, ministerial spokesmen, and State-paid Mercedes cars would make one wonder how the process of elections could be conducted in a democratic fashion at all. There was a certain candidate in this city who used to provide free drinks. That did not do him too much good. Even if we had a clean system of elections we are up against such things. One of the most despicable things which Fianna Fáil ever did was to abolish the law which compelled the election agent to make a return accounting for the expense of a candidate's campaign and insisting that that expense must not exceed some fraction of an old penny in respect of each voter in that constituency.

I am not saying that that Act was enforced. It was evaded blatantly. I have been engaged in election work for 20 years. I have been at many elections in my time. I have observed what happened at close quarters, particularly in 1954 and 1957 when, in the first instance, I was in the Fianna Fáil Party—God forgive me, everybody is entitled to one mistake—and I could see the machine working from the inside. I was outside the party in 1957. I could see what happened from the outside on that occasion.

A Deputy

What will happen now?

I followed Deputy Noel Browne into Fianna Fáil and I followed him out of it like a little child. I regard myself as not being fully responsible for my actions at that period. I had not attained adult status at that stage. I remember meeting a good friend of mine in the Fianna Fáil Party—he remained a friend even after I left the party—and we discussed the election in which Fianna Fáil succeeded in taking the seat from Deputy Noël Browne. This man boasted that he had spent £15,000 on the election campaign.

He must have had a political levy.

What can one do against people like that, even if the system was straight, which it is not? Deputy Browne was in no position to spend £15,000. I recall being an area director for Fianna Fáil at an election in 1954. By the time the final count was reached all political divisions among the parties had disappeared and the only point to be decided was whether ex-Deputy MacEntee or Deputy Noel Browne would retain the seat. I remember seeing amongst those counting the votes two of the people who had been canvassing for Fianna Fáil in the election campaign which had taken place in the three preceding weeks. I had to tap one man on the shoulder because he put into a MacEntee box a transfer with a Browne preference on it. There were something like 200 votes separating the candidates so this did not matter too much, but in an election like we had in 1965 in Longford/Westmeath and in Dublin North-East four votes settled the issue. The importance of the secrecy of the ballot and of the utilisation of this sort of influence is vital to the maintenance of any sort of democracy in this country.

The Minister referred to the necessity for making a change before the local government elections. It is not too much to ask the Minister to give us some small hint here—Deputy O'Donovan has probed him with his characteristic sense of humour on this issue— as to when the local government elections will be held. At the moment in Dublin there is no local government at all. We have one man holding meetings with himself and, presumably, the shaving mirror, and signing orders in the name of Dublin Corporation. The Minister has said that the White Paper on local government organisation would have to be implemented before the local government elections could be held. It is not good enough for the Minister to talk blandly here about the next local elections, which are due in a few months time, and give us no hint as to when these elections will be held. I put this challenge directly to the Minister.

Like Deputy L'Estrange and Deputy O'Donovan, I see no need at all for the retention of the serial numbers. The point has been made that personations might be made easier if they disappeared. I do not think this point is valid. First of all, if the supreme exponents of personation, to wit, the Fianna Fáil Party, are content that the serial numbers should remain on the paper, then obviously they do not regard these as a material obstacle to their conducting the practice of personation at which they are so expert. I do not see why these serial numbers should be retained.

The point about the stamp is very important. I have acted as a personating officer on several occasions and acted as director of elections on eight occasions, and if I may say so I have been successful in every one of those except two which I regard as being consequent upon factors outside my control. I, too, have witnessed the manner in which the returning officers have scrutinised the stamp to see if it is there, if it is faint or if it is not. A stamp should be introduced of a kind about which there could be absolutely no doubt as to whether it appeared on the paper.

It has been said here that the secrecy of the ballot is unbreakable, that it is impossible to detect how a person votes. We had this idyllic picture of voting in Ireland painted by the Minister for Local Government and by Deputy Meaney, a perfect system, worthy of classical Greece in which everybody rationalises his mind and then goes out and votes for Fianna Fáil. Who is fooling who in all this? In Dublin certainly it may be difficult to get away with intimidation or influencing voters, for instance, in the polling stations in the constituency which I have the honour to represent where the votes run into thousands. However, there are polling stations— and I noticed this when I was directing the Labour campaign in Longford-Westmeath some time ago—which run well below the 100 mark and which are in private houses. There are polling stations which run down as low as 30 in some parts of this constituency. Given a low vote in an area like that there may be 15 to 20 people who are voting in that particular box, and for anyone to suggest that it is not possible to work out exactly who is or who is not voting for Fianna Fáil is for that person to seek to pull the wool over the eyes of the electorate. These are the polling stations where you find the biggest concentration of Fianna Fáil cars, Fianna Fáil posters, where you find personating agents at desks for Fianna Fáil, who can see the number as the slip is torn off, who can look beady-eyed at the person who is doing the voting. You will not get a Fine Gael man there probably and you certainly will not get a Labour man there doing this, because neither of us have the resources, but you will certainly get a Fianna Fáil man there doing this.

The Minister for Local Government and Deputy Meaney can say that the idea that the ballot is not secret is ridiculous. The fact remains—and Deputy L'Estrange and Deputy Dr. O'Donovan are completely right here —that this fear is inclucated in the minds of people—and, particularly, old people, people dependent on pensions and people with memories going back to the personating days of the 20s and the 30s, when the practice of personating was widely used, as any historian knows—that it will be known what way they vote. That fear is inculcated assiduously by the Fianna Fáil organisation in the country.

Deputy Dr. O'Donovan has made another excellent point which characterises one of the most disgusting things about Fianna Fáil. It is not the Minister for Local Government who goes down and does this exercise; it is not any of the people in the front bench. It is like Henry II getting rid of Becket. He does not say: "Kill Becket". He says: "I wish somebody would get rid of Becket," and a nod is as good as a wink to a blind horse. The Ministers in their beautiful mohair suits travel around in their State cars, believing they preside, moryah, over a world of truth and beauty, but the local representatives, the back benchers, know their duty to the Department and in addition to going round the country saying we are all communists here, we are all divorcees and everything else, another little trick they do is to drop the hint in the ear of the old person in one of these small polling stations that his pension or his livelihood is in jeopardy if he does not vote according to the party line. Anybody, like Deputy L'Estrange, who keeps sophisticated tally card records in a rural constituency knows perfectly well that, in a small polling station of, say, 50 voters, at the end of an election you can put a name on everybody who voted. I should like to go further and say these polling stations are too small. I do not know if this is directly relevant to the Bill, but I just want to make the point. I know it would create a difficulty. The polling stations were originally designed in the days when everybody either walked or used a bicycle; today transport and communications are much more rapid.

They changed the number last year. It is now up to 300.

I am glad to hear that from Deputy L'Estrange. Let us hope in that case that it will be more difficult, but I still say that given any structure of politics—and heaven knows no structure of politics is perfect, and I as a professor of political science am the first to concede that professors cannot construct perfect political systems—in a small country like ours with relatively small polling stations, with the presence of Fianna Fáil personating agents, with the number on the counterfoil the same as the number on the ballot paper, there will be this hidden fear among certain people that their vote will be known, and I honestly believe that the Fianna Fáil organisation in rural Ireland relies heavily on this fact. When we consider that there are only 144 seats in this House and that the majorities are rarely in excess of two or three seats, we realise how important the exercise of this power is and how fundamentally important the use of the vast resources of the Fianna Fáil Party is in intimidating people into voting for the party. If this fear were erroneous I would accept with pleasure Deputy Meaney's assurance that it was erroneous, but it exists, and if it exists it is because that party has inculcated it into the electorate over the past 40 years.

I am amazed at the members of the Labour Party and the Fine Gael Party who are using this now as an excuse for all the defeats of the last 30 years. Apparently all the members of the Fine Gael and Labour Parties are the honest people of politics.

Notice taken that 20 Members were not present; House counted and 20 Members being present,

The Fine Gael and Labour Parties abuse this Bill to explain to the people that the cause of their downfall and defeat over the past 30 years is that somebody put a figure on the back of the ballot papers. In fact, their downfall over the past 30 years is due to the fact that the people put figures in the right places, on the front of the ballot papers and they will continue to do so. Deputy Thornley, as well as other Deputies, have been moaning and groaning about the secrecy of the ballot, about the fact that somebody scribbled a number on the back of the ballot papers. I am sorry for him as, indeed, I am sorry for the other speakers who went to such great lengths to try to prove that this was the cause of their downfall.

I thought he admitted that when he was in Fianna Fáil he was defeated.

I got more votes than the Deputy.

Yes, but the Deputy appeared more times on television at the people's expense. That will not happen again.

It is just as well the people did not see the Deputy very often or they would not have voted for him.

The Deputy with Mr. Basil Chubb misled the people on many occasions.

That is why democracy exists.

After the Deputy came into the House he admitted that much of the tripe dished out on television over the years was impractical, that now that he was involved in practical politics he would have to conform with the way of politicians.

Proportional representation is practical. Does the Deputy want to get rid of it?

We see now that Deputy Thornley on television is a different man from Deputy Thornley in the House. If he was not pushed so much by other forces in Dublin North West he would not possibly be using some of the language he has been using in this House and outside it over the past few months. During the past few months the Deputy has been using rather peculiar language in relation to certain organisations. That is because pressure has been put on him and he is yielding to pressure inside the House in order to save his own skin for fear that other people at some stage might be resurrected to contest elections in the future. On the next occasion Deputy Thornley might be glad of a few marks on the ballot papers as, indeed, might other members of the Labour Party. The foul type of character assassination that we have heard tonight from Deputy Thornley and others, the references to honourable members of the Fianna Fáil organisation will not be accepted by the people. Members of our organisation would not stoop to those tactics. The people in the last analysis decide. They have decided over the years. They have put their marks in the right place and I am quite certain they will continue to do so in the future. The official workers of the Fianna Fáil organisation, because of the tremendous vote over the years, because of the confidence of the people over the years, have done a wonderful job. Deputy Thornley and others now seek to cast a slur on the effectiveness of the Fianna Fáil organisation and on the characters of the Fianna Fáil workers. These workers are honourable men and women who have devoted their time and energy to ensure that the people understood the policies of this party. It was on the policies as presented by the party that candidates were elected not because numbers were scribbled on the ballot papers.

I am glad that at last we are educating Deputy Thornley and all the other doctors of the Labour Party, together with the other doctor they intend to bring in, Dr. Paisley. I am quite sure he will fit in well with the other doctors in the Labour Party. They seem to have a monopoly at the moment. It appears that the ordinary rank and file are no longer wanted. They will no longer be looking for a mark on the ballot papers from the ordinary rank and file workers because they have been ditched by the Labour Party and they are endeavouring to import people like Dr. Paisley to replace the honest to God hard-working Labour members who in the past sought the confidence of the people to elect them because they understood their problems.

The Deputy is not saying anything about the Maoists.

The Labour Party doctors have decided that they will bring in more doctors in order to bolster up the party. I am quite sure that in the course of the next few days we will see ballot papers properly marked in Wexford. I hope there will be no writing on the back of them. I am quite sure there will be a lot of people written off as a result of the ballots that will take place there and possibly Deputy Thornley will be one of them. The question of large scale personation has been outlined by Deputy Thornley. Of course, this is another fairy tale that the Labour Party have trotted out from time to time when they have done badly. In the last Dáil they were much stronger than they are in this Dáil and with the decline in the party they will be much smaller in the next Dáil.

During the last election campaign we heard about the wonderful policies of the party. The only thing the public want are policies that will be pursued by a party. We know what happened the Labour Party on the last occasion, despite the fact that they had large scale personating teams out in Dublin city. I know in my own area that thousands of pounds were poured into the campaign by individuals who did a very extensive tour and obtained this money. Many of the votes obtained by the Labour Party in the Ballyfermot area on the last occasion were as a result of this type of personation that Deputy Thornley indicated was in existence in Dublin South West. Whose money was it? It was the hard-earned money of the Dublin workers which was paid out by contributions at political level. The Labour Party got substantial contributions from the ordinary workers of Dublin. Deputy Thornley spoke about the amount of money contributed to the campaign but he did not mention about the crucifying of the Irish workers to extract the last halfpenny from them so that certain Labour Party members might be elected.

What about the thousands of pounds put into the Deputy's party by the £1,000 subscriptions?

The Deputy has nothing to say about the 80,000 who are unemployed.

Deputy Thornley has nothing to say about that. He has nothing to say about the large sums of money given to Labour Party candidates to contest the last election. He spoke about the amount of money spent in the campaign in Dublin South East.

By Fianna Fáil.

By the Tacateers and the racketeers.

The money spent on the Fianna Fáil election campaign was money subscribed to the election fund in that area and it was devoted to that purpose.

By fairy godmothers.

By the Tacateers.

By fairy godmothers? All I can say is that the situation on the Deputy's side is very different. The Labour Party put their hands into the pockets of the Irish workers. They extracted this money from them by blackmail and then devoted it to the activities I have described. Deputy Thornley cannot deny that.

What about the letter sent out by the Fianna Fáil organisation to industrialists telling them to subscribe to the Fianna Fáil organisation? The letter was signed by the Taoiseach.

I will deal with Deputy L'Estrange in a moment.

Would Deputies please allow Deputy Dowling to make his contribution without interruption? All interruptions should cease.

The Deputy should speak on the Bill.

We will get back to the Bill and the comments made by some of the speakers, such as Deputy Thornley and Deputy L'Estrange. Of course, Deputy L'Estrange was worse. I do not know what value is put on what he says. We know that he has been challenged outside on many occasions. Nobody would take any notice of what Deputy L'Estrange says.

Anything I say here or elsewhere is true.

This character assassin, Deputy L'Estrange, has from time to time endeavoured to utilise this House for his own fell purposes.

I have been proved right, even in what I said two years ago about the Garda Fallon murder.

He uses this House to degrade people and, when challenged outside the House, he refuses to meet the challenge.

On a point of order. In the interests of decorum. I would ask that the Deputy withdraw "character assassin".

That is quite in order.

With reference to the character assassin. Deputy L'Estrange, he was challenged in the Press about a statement he made here and he failed to respond to the challenge.

I made a statement which was true.

No one takes any notice of what he says in this House and there is no need for me, or any other Deputy, to dwell on the statements Deputy L'Estrange makes because the people know Deputy L'Estrange; they know the number of occasions on which he was challenged and they know the number of occasions on which he failed to respond to the challenge.

Who was the "Holy Joe" during the last election?

Deputy Dr. Thornley —this great doctor in the Labour Party —mentioned local elections. Deputy Thornley knows well the reason why there is no corporation in the City Hall. It is because a number of members of the Labour Party and of the Fine Gael Party failed to measure up to their responsibilities.

Fianna Fáil does not believe in democracy, of course.

They endeavoured to deprive people of medical and other services by a cut back in the rates and in the provision for the Dublin Health Authority at the time. They were not concerned about the continuity of Dublin Corporation. From the references here one would think that this party alone was responsible and that there was no responsibility on other elected members to do a particular job. Deputy Thornley, of course, sees himself as "Councillor Thorneley".

He sees himself as a councillor in the next Dublin Corporation. I do not know whether or not there will ever be one but, if there is, and if Deputy Thornley is a member, I hope his contribution will be a little more factual than his television ones. He will be dealing with a different type of person from those with whom he deals in Montrose. He will be dealing with people really concerned about problems, with the Fianna Fáil members, with people who showed their concern when others tried to wreck the democratic system by the action they took, not once but on a number of occasions, in the council chamber; and, no sooner were they dissolved, than they went around crying and asking could the order dissolving them be rescinded because they wanted to go back into the Dublin Corporation. I am sure the Minister for Local Government will give the people an opportunity of electing responsible members to Dublin Corporation at some time in the future. Possibly Deputy Thornley and others, who failed to play their part properly, will get some votes.

The Minister will not give the opportunity just yet though.

Maybe not. We have to take our time. We have to assess the situation. I hope when the next election comes the people will have the right to mark ballot papers because, if some had their way, there would be no ballot papers at all. There are members of the Labour Party who do not approve of this system, who do not approve of people having the opportunity to indicate whom they want to support. Now, after 30 years in the wilderness, they are whinging about it being possible to check back on how some guy voted out in Cabra or in some other area. This is just a coverup for the inefficiency of the Labour Party. I do not know whether or not Fine Gael indulge in personation but, if there was personation, they should have been efficient enough to spot it. I must admit that on the last occasion a number of people got through the net in our area—that was the last election in which they will get through the net—from the Labour Party. These highly organised professional highwaymen were brought in.

Was that why the Deputy was so low down?

I was at the top.

He was, like fun.

Let the Deputy have a look at the returns. One could sympathise to some extent with Deputy Thornley if he were sincere about the situation but I would advise him to ask some of his own members about the carry-on on the last occasion. Even I was disgusted.

It must have been bad.

That is the understatement of the year.

I was disgusted at the scale on which the Labour Party participated in this deplorable crime.

No wonder the Deputy's face is red.

My face is not red at all. I do not suppose there is much more I need to say.

I referred to the Labour Party and the manner in which they attacked the faithful and honest workers of Fianna Fáil.

It is a pity the Deputy does not talk about the Bill.

This is in relation to the Bill. I must answer the criticisms of Deputy Thornley in relation to honourable members of my organisation who have been attacked here by character assassins. Deputy Thornley boasted he got a number of votes; he did, with the help of the public money pumped into RTE and with the help of the workers and the levy they had to pay.

I thought I was no good on RTE.

At times the Deputy was all right. He looked well when he was done up. They did a very good job on him out in the studio. When we saw him here, however, the Deputy was a completely different man and I must say I was disappointed.

Sorry about that.

I am sorry this attack was made on members of the Fianna Fáil organisation and I repudiate once more the scandalous attack by Deputy Thornley and others on loyal workers of this organisation.

In so far as the Bill goes we welcome it. It is somewhat extraordinary that on such a major constitutional matter no initiative was taken by successive Ministers for Local Government until the matter was finally brought to the courts. Electoral law should be under continuous review and we should not have to wait until the courts decide an issue to discover whether or not certain articles are or are not constitutional. We were aware of a constitutional query, as it were, in relation to the particular practice under discussion. It is astonishing that Mr. Boland did not take action as Minister for Local Government; he has been very eloquent about the sacrosanct provisions of the Constitution. Deputy Neil Blaney as Minister for Local Government took no initiative in this. He, too, had an opportunity of ensuring that the unconstitutional section of the Electoral Act would have been deleted but did not do so. Yet, he now careers around the country assuring everybody of his undying devotion to the Constitution. He was rather loath in his pretty busy period as Minister for Local Government to apply the Constitution to the electoral law.

Having welcomed the Bill in that context I think the Minister does not deal with the serious matter of abuse which still exists in electoral practices. There is nothing to prevent a personating agent taking a number off the ballot paper, putting it on the register opposite the name and number of the elector and then subsequently—say in a very small electoral area where a count of the 250 or 350 electors is done separately by the returning officer—there is nothing to prevent the possibility of the elector's identity, and how he voted, being known to those in possession of the register. In that context there is a real possibility of abuse in many rural areas.

I recommend to the Minister the study done by Trinity College political science students under Professor Basil Chubb in relation to Donegal. Fianna Fáil and Fine Gael personating officers were in a position to indicate pretty accurately how families in certain townlands, Catholic and Protestant, voted. Using the electoral law as it stands and as amended I am sure they will still be in a position to track down with reasonable certainty how a particular person voted. I am thinking of a small electoral register of about 300 people. I gather the new regulation is that no polling station shall have less than 300. This tends to prevent abuse but I gather the possibility is still open.

I have raised the matter now because I have raised it here before and I am not raising it merely in relation to the Second Reading of this Bill. The Minister should give some general indication of his views. However, I strongly welcome the fact that the courts and the judiciary have now found that the practice of writing the elector's number on the counterfoil of his ballot paper is unconstitutional.

I am still rather concerned about the postal voting system. I have raised this matter also on a number of occasions and I propose now to make only a few brief points in relation to it. I have previously suggested there is the possibility of serious abuse in relation to the postal voting system. I am not satisfied that we have given the security forces, the Army and the Garda, who must avail of the postal voting system, the assurance they should have. These are critical times in which one should give more than an offhand assurance. We should be able to say authoritatively and unequivocally to a garda or member of the Army that his vote cannot be traced. This is a serious matter. I have pointed out to the Minister that in a recent by-election in South County Dublin in which I was director of elections for the Labour Party we had available to us the actual return of the postal vote, because in our opinion the counting of the votes was not done properly and we were able to say that so many guards and so many Army personnel on that register voted for Labour or for Fianna Fáil, or Fine Gael or for Independent candidates. When you consider that in a constituency like South County Dublin, where the total number of postal votes is about 430, you can say that 23 members of the Garda or Army voted Labour, 70 or 80 voted Fianna Fáil, 60 or 70 voted Fine Gael and 30 or 40 voted for the Independent candidate, you see the position. You have the postal vote register and you can start the kind of thing which used go on in the old days when a Fianna Fáil Deputy went to a house and said: "I know you did not vote for me; I checked it at the count and I shall remember that." The unfortunate family were intimidated into voting the "right way" the next time.

This does happen in certain rural areas and indeed in certain urban areas. People think in the same way. The Irish electorate, I regret to say, in terms of their entitlement under electoral law are illiterate, unaware and uninformed of their legal rights. They do not know and are not told of their electoral and constitutional entitlements. That is why we find ourselves discussing this matter now in this way. Fortunately, Deputy Dowling has now gone. If this is the level of contribution one can expect from Fianna Fáil in regard to electoral law I tremble to think what the prospects would be if the like of Deputy Dowling ever reaches ministerial office. We shall show our contempt with general silence. However, I would ask the Minister to have another look at the postal voting rules.

This is provided for in this Bill. I do not know if the Deputy has studied the Bill itself.

I have. I have marked the section here. I want to get on to one particular rule the Minister might make. He recently conveyed to returning officers in various places that particularly where postal votes are being counted they should be turned face downwards. Normally, returning officers turn the other votes face upwards. A further suggestion in relation to postal votes is this: I think it is highly invidious, undesirable and most questionable that the votes of a particular occupational group, especially the security forces, should be counted separately either the night before the count or during the count itself. The Minister may have observations to make: I am talking about what I have seen happen and which may not have been according to electoral rules.

I am sure the Minister is aware that some returning officers take a rather liberal view of what people want at a certain polling station and, in fact, they may not be acting in accordance with the statutory rules. I suggest that these postal votes should be counted with the other votes. Measures should be taken to ensure that it would be physically impossible, either from the point of view of observation or otherwise, to define how even a proportion of the security forces in a constituency cast their votes.

Following the passage of this Bill, the Minister will send copies of the revised regulations to the returning officers. We are slipshod and lacking in normal democratic dignity in relation to the manner in which we conduct our elections. Far too many people are asked to vote in scruffy, insanitary "kips" of polling stations; old disused tennis clubs, dilapidated halls, and run-down premises without any sanitary facilities or electricity are used for this purpose. Frequently people have to vote by candlelight at by-elections in rural areas. Under our Constitution people have the right to vote, and on average people vote every three and a half years, but it is degrading and not in keeping with the democratic traditions we are trying to build up and it is destructive of our democratic procedures that people should be asked to vote in such conditions. I would ask the Minister to direct returning officers to have some minimum general standards applied with regard to polling stations. We have long enough between elections to investigate the condition of the stations.

The job of the presiding officer is not an easy one. Adequate finance should be made available to him to conduct his job in an efficient manner. It is not unknown that returning officers frequently ask the candidates and the directors of elections for the various parties to continue throughout the night with the proceedings because otherwise he would have to pay another £200 or £300 to the polling clerks for another day's work. This kind of skimping and the failure to make adequate provision to ensure that the count is conducted properly is to be deplored.

There should be some rule or regulation introduced whereby counting of votes would be conducted with a reasonable degree of expedition. It is an absolute farce that in some cases it takes from 48 to 60 hours to count votes. In these days when electronic calculators are available, when one can have much improvement in counting procedures, it is ludicrous that such long delays should occur. There is nothing more ridiculous than to have the electorate waiting for hours on end for the results of counts. Generally, the returning officers do not employ enough counting clerks. The Minister should make available through his Department new and modern equipment which would enable polling clerks and returning officers to carry out their work quickly.

The Minister should make known to the superintendents and the Garda Síochána in each area the procedures relating to the presence of candidates and their supporters outside polling stations. It must be stated that the Government have been more prone to use this kind of subtle face-to-face intimidation of electors. I do not think electors are unduly influenced by people screaming and yelling at them outside the polling stations and by stuffing Fianna Fáil canvassing into their pockets in the hope that this will cause them to vote for Fianna Fáil candidates. It is undesirable that there should be such a plethora of microphones, cars and so on, in front of the polling stations so that the electors have difficulty in entering these stations. This may add a certain gaiety, tension and excitement to the atmosphere but many electors have told me they are sick and tired of this nonsense. There should be clear directions given to the Garda Síochána to ensure that the electors are not intimidated by such performances.

The Minister might consider using the facilities available to him on Telefis Éireann and the publicity arrangements in the Department of Local Government to make available to school-children and to the young people who will be coming on to the electoral register information regarding the electoral system. Only a fraction of the electorate have the slightest idea of what PR is about or how a ballot paper should be marked right through the paper. Our electorate are ill-informed regarding these matters and the Minister should give serious consideration to making available to young people a comprehensive guide on the subject. This will enable young people to understand what they are doing when they cast their vote.

I hope that the next Electoral Bill to be brought before the Dáil will include votes at 18 years. Politicians have a nerve and a cheek to talk about democracy and the exercise of the franchise when on average most people are unable to vote until they are 22½ years of age. If people are old enough to marry or to join the Army——

The Bill has nothing to do with that matter.

I shall leave it at that and urge the Minister to consider these points.

I appreciate the reception the Bill has received from both Opposition Parties. Although many other matters have been raised in the course of the debate and many suggestions have been made to me that there are other aspects of the electoral law which may be in need of revision or improvement again I should like to reiterate that I am merely dealing here with the position that has arisen because of the decision in the Supreme Court. I realise fully that other aspects of the electoral law are in need of improvement, aspects of a technical and a procedural nature. A fairly comprehensive Bill is being prepared at the moment to deal with these matters and I hope to be able to introduce it in the House in the not too distant future.

Deputy Hogan raised an interesting point. I should like to elaborate a little on the history of the question of including the voter's number on the counterfoil of the ballot paper. It goes back to the 1923 Electoral Act. The voting procedure in parliamentary elections is based on that Act which closely follows the provisions contained in Part I of the Ballot Act, 1872. The Ballot Act, 1872, required each ballot paper and the attached counterfoil to be numbered, the number being printed on the back of the ballot paper and on the face of the counterfoil. It also required that the voter's number on the register of voters should be marked on the counterfoil.

The voting system under the 1872 Act was specifically designed to permit scrutiny of votes after an election, should the necessity for this arise. The introduction of the 1872 Act was preceded by a report of a special parliamentary committee on the electoral system. Specific consideration was given by that committee to two different systems of voting which were then current in Australia. One was the South Australia system and the other was the Victoria system. In the South Australia system there was absolute secrecy. On establishing his right to vote, the voter received a ballot paper bearing neither number nor mark. In the Victoria system, before being handed to the voter the ballot paper was marked by the returning officer with a number corresponding to the voter's number on the electoral roll.

The framers of the 1872 Act rejected the South Australia system and accepted the Victoria system with the modification that the ballot paper and the counterfoil should be numbered serially, the number on the ballot paper being printed on the back. Before the ballot paper was handed to the voter his number on the voters' register was marked on the counterfoil. So it was the Victoria system which the Oireachtas borrowed in 1923, via the Ballot Act, 1872. I suppose it is no harm to remind the House, in view of the criticisms of this requirement which have come from the Opposition Deputies, that the 1923 Act was passed by the Cumann na nGaedheal Government at that time. Since then a joint committee of both Houses of the Oireachtas sat and considered our electoral law. They did not recommend that there should be any change in this regard.

It is a bit unfair for Opposition Deputies to insinuate that there was a lack of initiative on my part and that I was forced to bring this forward because of the Supreme Court decision rather than taking this step myself. As I said, I am preparing a comprehensive Bill to deal with improvements in procedural and technical matters relating to electoral law. Because of the imminence of the referendum at the moment, and the possibility of a general or Presidential election, or a Seanad election at any time, it is incumbent on any Minister to take action as soon as possible after such a decision has been issued from the Supreme Court. This is why I came forward with this interim step to tidy up this section of our electoral law.

Deputy Hogan referred to the issue of voters' polling cards and suggested that this should be continued. He asked whether this Bill will interfere in any way with the issue of voters' polling cards which enable electors registered on the voters' list to know in advance their exact number on the voters' list. This is done for the convenience of voters and this Bill will in no way interfere with or change that procedure.

Great play was made with the use of serial numbers on ballot papers. Deputy Hogan raised this matter and a number of other Deputies had various things to say about it, including Deputy L'Estrange. Some allegations were made which I wish to refute. It was alleged that it was possible to trace the manner in which any voter had, in fact, voted through the agent in the polling booth being in a position subsequently to compare the number on a ballot paper with the actual marking on the ballot paper as discovered at the count.

It has been done.

It requires an extreme stretch of the imagination to imagine that such a system could be applied successfully. The requirement that the number on the ballot paper should be as small as is compatible with legibility would greatly reduce the possibility of anybody being able to read the number easily.

It can be read easily in the majority of constituencies.

The counterfoil which is retained by the presiding officer and submitted to the returning officer is in a block and it is not easy to keep a tally on the numbers as they roll off. The primary point that should be remembered is that people who are privileged to work in a polling booth are bound to secrecy.

That is gone.

Anybody who divulged any information which he received while acting in an official capacity in the polling booth would be liable to suffer penalties under the law.

I think that is gone.

There is an obligation in law to maintain the secrecy of the ballot. I do not think the Deputy should challenge me on that one. The question of local elections was raised and I want to make it clear to Deputies who are interested in this matter that regulations governing local elections must be approved by resolution of both Houses of the Oireachtas. Any Deputy who is anxious to question any changes in these regulations would have the opportunity to do so when the regulations came before the House and could insist on having the matter debated.

They are not coming this year.

The regulations will come fairly soon, I think.

The local elections are not coming this year. The Minister's own men are saying that they are not coming this year.

Whether or not local elections are held this year is completely irrelevant on this Bill, although I should like to facilitate Deputy L'Estrange in view of his very great anxiety as to whether he will have to face the electorate in the present year in his own area——

I am not afraid. I faced them at ten elections.

I am sorry but I cannot relieve him of his anxiety or help him in any way.

Fianna Fáil people are telling everyone throughout the country that the Minister informed them that they will not be held.

As far as I am concerned the law remains as it stands and the local elections are due to be held this year. No decision not to hold them has been taken by me or by the Government.

I do not know whether some Deputies studied this Bill carefully. There is not very much that is new in it other than the removal of the provisions which make it obligatory to record the voter's number on the counterfoil, but in dealing with the Bill they seemed to insinuate that there was quite an amount of personation at elections. They reached the extraordinary conclusion that this was so and that it was carried on only by Fianna Fáil. Facts do not prove that there has been wholesale personation at any elections that have been held here since the foundation of the State and there has not been any occasion on which a petition has been presented either to the Dáil or to the courts for the purpose of dealing with such matters. Therefore, it is somewhat glib and a little too easy for Deputies to come here and simply make these types of political charges. The fact that an all-party committee sat in 1960-61 to consider this issue and that they decided at the time not to recommend any changes on this particular aspect of electoral law, is of some significance. It was alleged by Deputies O'Donovan and L'Estrange, among others, that under this particular system the Government were able to intimidate persons by implying that it was possible to discover after an election which way any person voted. This allegation is dishonest and if Opposition Deputies were of the opinion that there was any truth in it I would suggest to them that Depuies of their own parties who were members of that joint committee on the electoral law could have pressed for this change during their time as members of that committee. Instead, the committee were unanimous in their decision not to recommend any change and the only reason I am making a change is because I am obliged to do so as a result of the decision of the Supreme Court. It would be no harm to remind the House of who represented Fine Gael and Labour on that committee. Among the members were Deputy Cosgrave, Deputy Jack McQuillan, then a Deputy, George Russell, then a Deputy, and the late Deputy Sweetman. However, much more interesting would be to tell the House that a certain Senator L'Estrange, as he was then, also was a member of the committee which did not recommend any change in this law. So much for the allegations that have been made to the effect that there was a reluctance on my part, or on the part of any predecessor of mine, in bringing forward legislation of this kind.

The old Fianna Fáil TDs were not as clever as the mohair-suited boys of the present generation. In the past ten or 12 years these have learned what it takes.

However, Deputy L'Estrange raised an interesting point in relation to the stamp and I would agree with him on this. There is no necessity to change the law on this matter. In fact, the law envisages that the mark will be embossed or perforated so that the choice is there already. I share the view expressed by the Deputy about having the mark stamped clearly on the ballot paper and I will look into this matter which I consider to be of some importance.

Would the Minister recommend that they be perforated since so much time is lost at counts?

As I have told the Deputy, I am prepared to look into the matter and to take some action in regard to it. Deputy Thornley referred to the limit of expenses of political parties or of any candidate at election times. As he is aware, perhaps, this arrangement existed up to 1963 when it was dropped. It was dropped on the recommendation of the all-party joint committee on the electoral law so that again this was a question on which all sides of the House decided to take certain action, but we now have members of parties who were represented at that committee coming here and criticising decisions of their colleagues.

I accept no responsibility for what was done in 1963.

Of course, but the Deputy should appreciate also that in making the allegation it would apply to all parties in this House. It was not a particular wish of the governing party at the time, Fianna Fáil, that such should be the case. Therefore, the point I made was a fair one in consideration of what the Deputy said.

There was another rather amusing allegation from the Labour Party to the effect that Fine Gael and Labour did not have enough money to provide personating agents at all the booths in rural areas. This may be an indication of the philosophy of the Labour Party and it may well be the reason for much of their failure in the political field since their establishment. Since their foundation they have never managed to increase substantially their representation in the House. Certainly, they have never presented any great danger to a governing party.

Deputy Thornley believes that it is the availability of finance that enables any political party to man the polling booths and to have an efficient political organisation on the day of voting. In that he is mistaken greatly and I would like to assure him that persons who carry out these functions for Fianna Fáil—the party of which I am proud to be a member—do not do so for any remuneration.

Who is the Minister codding? Not only are they remunerated but they are provided with tea and sandwiches and anything else they want. They get from £3 to £5 a day.

Certainly, they are given tea and sandwiches and are looked after very well by the local organisations.

When I acted as personating agent for Fianna Fáil I was offered remuneration but refused to take it.

I am talking about rural constituencies of which the Deputy seems to know little except, perhaps, for his occasional trip beyond Chapelizod.

They are paid both in rural and urban constituencies.

Perhaps it is a lack of belief in their own parties that leaves Fine Gael and Labour in the position where they have not the dedicated workers to support them. If they had such dedicated workers, they would not have any problem.

It is in the belief that they will get a job that people perform these duties for Fianna Fáil.

I would not think so. It was a member of the inter-Party Government who made the statement that no Fianna Fáil man would ever get a job on the Corrib drainage scheme. That statement is on record and the man who made it was proud of it subsequently and, indeed, saw that it was carried out.

Did the late Donogh O'Malley not say that Fianna Fáil people would get preference?

Any Fianna Fáil man who applied for a job on the Corrib drainage scheme was turned down.

This is a wide ranging debate.

The question of the condition of polling stations was raised but, although it may not be relevant to the Bill, I take the point. Deputy Desmond said that some of these stations are unsuitable for the purpose and that there was a certain amount of inconvenience to those who worked in them on election days. I would like to point out to the Deputy that the selection of polling stations is made by local authorities in the different areas and often returning officers have great difficulty in finding suitable locations for polling. In order not to involve people in long journeys they make great efforts to locate the polling stations as near as possible to the area in which the people are living. These are difficulties that any returning officer must face but, all in all, they have been doing a fairly good job down through the years. However, I will remind the county councils to consider this point when selecting polling stations in the future.

The question of postal voting rules was raised by Deputy Desmond. I think he is under some misunderstanding here. There is no question of counting the postal voters' ballot papers separately from other papers and there never was. The returning officer, of course, opens the postal voters' papers before the commencement of the count. This is usually done the night before as he has to indicate the time and place at which he is going to do this and inform the candidates and their agents in advance. Up to now the returning officer was obliged to compare the number on the receipt with the number on the ballot paper envelope and, subsequently, he had to compare the number on the ballot paper envelope with the number on the ballot paper itself. Under the Bill which I am proposing to the House this procedure will no longer be necessary. While it existed, and it still exists until the Bill is passed, of course, it did give an opportunity to candidates' agents if they wanted to, to get some indication of the trend of the postal vote in advance of the actual count because the ballot paper had to be unfolded. Under the Bill, this comparison of the numbers will not arise and the returning officer will be able to take the ballot paper out of its envelope and drop it, without unfolding it, into the sealed ballot box which then goes to the place of count the following day and is counted with the other ballot papers in the ordinary way. I trust that that will eliminate any possibility of discovering in advance how the postal votes went. That is contained in section I of the Bill.

I think I have answered most of the points made. As we will be dealing with each section separately later, any other points will, I am sure, be answered to the satisfaction of the Deputies.

Question put and agreed to.

Shall we take it now?

Shall we let the Whips arrange it?

The Deputy does not wish to take it now?

I would prefer not to.

We could arrange it for next week.

We can take it next week then.

Committee Stage ordered for Tuesday, 1st February, 1972.
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