asked the Minister for Education if there is any change in his Department's policy on the development of the community schools in view of the degree of opposition to their introduction and development in the form at present envisaged.
Ceisteanna—Questions. Oral Answers. - Community Schools.
94.
When the Deputy speaks of the degree of opposition to my community school proposals he is, in fact, speaking of the way in which these proposals have been misrepresented both inside and outside this House. It has been said that the proposals involve the taking over of vocational schools by religious communities. The truth is that the religious did not wish to be connected in any way with the control of vocational schools. They had as far as the management of post-primary schools in these areas was involved entire control either actual or potential over two-thirds of the pupils. Having, however, been convinced of the educational benefits to be derived from one sufficiently large school in the areas concerned they have agreed to make a major concession on their part. Their agreeing to participate in the running of community schools meant the sharing of their control equally with representatives of the parents and of the vocational education committee.
When the misrepresentation in relation to my proposals ceases and when they are seen for what they are—a realistic effort to provide equality of educational opportunity particularly for the children in areas of lesser population—then I hope that I will be given credit for having stood by them.
I might add lest the Deputy should rise in relation to this matter the position of minority communities that he might be well advised to wait until the necessary deeds of trust have been drawn up.
Arising from the Minister's reference to misrepresentation, I wonder would he cease misinterpreting the nature of these sectarian institutions by referring to them as community schools since they are, in fact, divisive of the community and destructive of community spirit and community existence?
Would the Minister not agree that the Labour Deputies, with the spasmodic help of Deputy FitzGerald, have damaged the cause of this country by their misrepresentations regarding the community schools project and have given the enemies of Ireland plenty of ammunition to use against our country?
Which enemies?
I fully agree with what the Deputy has said. In fact, for what they thought would be cheap political advantage, they did not hesitate to use such a word as "sectarian" which has no place in the vocabulary of this State.
It has a place in the practice of the Minister's party and in their Constitution.
The question asked by the Deputy was possibly worthy of him but the answer was unworthy of the Minister. Is the Minister aware——
Is Professor FitzGerald engaging in this as well?
May I ask the Minister——
Acting Chairman
We cannot have an argument across the floor of the House. If Deputy FitzGerald has a question, would he ask it and will the Minister reply to it and we will proceed to the next question?
The Minister is being provocative.
The Minister is not being provocative.
Acting Chairman
I would be grateful if Deputies and the Minister would not take part in a dispute across the floor of the House.
Is there any truth in the newspaper report that the Minister proposes to amend his scheme with a view to giving parents direct representation by election on the boards from the outset?
I have an answer to that question for Deputy Desmond.
I am anticipating. Is the Minister aware of the policy statement by Fine Gael that if he proceeds with his scheme the Fine Gael Party in Government will reverse it and ensure that these schools become genuine community schools and does he intend to persist with this scheme in the light of that?
The hotch-potch that was dished up by Deputy FitzGerald as Fine Gael policy was, to put it mildly, lamentable. It was a policy which appears to give everything to everybody and nothing to anybody, a part of the road with everybody. In fact, under his policy he could never produce one, solitary community school.
Could I ask the Minister to answer my question?
Acting Chairman
Question No. 95.
Why will the Minister not answer my question?
Acting Chairman
Would Deputy FitzGerald allow questions to proceed?
I have answered the Deputy's question.
Acting Chairman
Will the Minister please answer Question No. 95?
When I had read the Deputy's policy then I re-read it and I could not believe my eyes.
Acting Chairman
I must protest against the Minister answering a question which is not before the House. Question No. 95.
95.
asked the Minister for Education if, in respect of the proposed deed of trust of the proposed community schools, he intends to consult with the Vocational Education Committee prior to the execution of such deeds.
Yes.
Could I ask the Minister when a copy of the deed of trust will be put in the Library of this House?
Every party will be given an opportunity to see the deed of trust and any suggestions they might make in relation to it will be considered.
If every party is to see it, could I ask the Minister when we shall see it.
I am not talking about political parties. I am talking about the interested parties in relation to the schools.
Does this include the Protestant school authorities who wrote to the Minister on the subject——
I was rather amused when I found that the Deputy stated in his policy statement that the minority question was a difficult one. I would have assumed from the supplementaries he has been asking for a considerable time that he had no difficulty with it at all.
Would the Minister answer my question? Is he going to consult the Protestant school authorities or not? Are they excluded from "every party"? They are not part of the community?
The Deputy will wait until he sees the deed of trust and then I shall be quite willing to answer any questions.
What about atheists? The Deputy does not know what to do about them.
I shall consult all the interested parties.
Is the Minister suggesting the Church of Ireland Board of Education is not an interested party in relation to community schools?
No. I am not suggesting anything of the sort.
Then, is the Minister going to consult them?
Yes.
Right. Thank you. You have to work on it to get an answer.
96.
asked the Minister for Education the departmental policy in respect of size (pupil number) of community schools.
The Department is operating on the basis of a minimum of 400 pupils being necessary for an adequate post-primary school providing courses up to leaving certificate level. The Department would prefer a higher minimum number but will accept the minimum of about 400 where that is the total enrolment in a centre.
Is the Minister prepared to be flexible in this matter or is it an absolute minimum of 400 no matter what the circumstances are, even if it is a question of an Irish-speaking school?
I must be flexible where there are very exceptional circumstances.
Good; so it is not a minimum of 400.
97.
asked the Minister for Education if the future appointment of parents within the communty school structure will be on an elected basis initially; and if the nominee system for parents is now withdrawn by his Department.
The Deputy does not seem to understand the position. In areas in which schools, secondary and vocational, already exist and are being amalgamated, the parent representatives will be elected straightaway. It is only in new areas of cities that the question of nominating parent representatives for the first three years arises, for reasons which I have already explained at length in this House.
Am I to take it that in relation to both Tallaght and Blanchardstown the nominee system is the one now in operation and will continue to be in operation for the next few years?
That is right.
In view of the vociferous denunciation of the Minister's nominee system in both Tallaght and Blanchardstown, would he not now reconsider it and allow elections to take place immediately directly among the parents involved and drop this nonsense of nominations in the next three years as a complete democratic fraud?
He does not know how to work a democratic system.
Of course, Deputy FitzGerald will recognise that I have just stated that in the areas where the schools are already in operation the parents will be elected immediately. In relation to Tallaght and Blanchardstown I have explained on many occasions that we do not know who the parents of the community schools will be. We are waiting for three years so as to be assured of who the parents will be and then they will elect their representatives.
When the Minister becomes suddenly aware of the identity of those parents, would it be beyond the bounds of the Minister's ingenuity and imagination——
Acting Chairman
Would Deputy Desmond ask a question?
Bluntly speaking, to have an election of the parents themselves?
That would be democratic. That is out.
Is there no hope at all?
No hope at all.
Talk about democracy.
You can talk about it but you cannot have it.
98.
asked the Minister for Education if he will state the precise formulation of the condition of employment of teachers in the proposed community schools relating to suitability in respect of "faith and morals" as will be issued by his Department to selection boards and boards of management.
When the deed of trust in connection with community schools has been drawn up copies of it will be available to all interested parties including the Deputy.
Could I ask the Minister if there have been any negotiations between the teaching organisations concerned and the Department or if any draft has been agreed say, between the Vocational Teachers Association and the Department in regard to this condition of employment involving faith and morals?
No. I do not propose to deal with this further. As I say, when the deed of trust is available I shall be willing to discuss it.
I must protest strongly to the Minister at his failure to answer the question.
Acting Chairman
Has the Deputy a question to ask?
I have asked the Minister if he can indicate whether or not there has been an exchange of correspondence between the trade unions concerned, the vocational teachers, about this phrase "faith and morals", a particular condition of employment which I gather has been the subject of negotiations between the VTA and the Department and which I also gather has been amended on a number of occasions. Could the Minister please tell us the current stage of negotiations on the faith and morals of the vocational teachers who would be taking up employment in those schools?
I do not think that question is relevant.
Would the Minister say——
Acting Chairman
If the Minister does not get a chance to reply to the question——
I am asking the Minister a question.
Acting Chairman
Give him a chance to reply.
I have already said I shall discuss this or any other matter when the deed of trust is prepared.
When it is all over.