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Dáil Éireann debate -
Thursday, 3 Feb 1972

Vol. 258 No. 7

Committee on Finance. - Vote 43: Defence (Resumed).

Debate resumed on the following motion:
That a supplementary sum not exceeding £10 be granted to defray the charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1972, for the salaries and expenses of the Office of the Minister for Defence, including certain services administered by that Office; for the pay and expenses of the Defence Forces; and for payment of a grant-in-aid.
—(Minister for Defence.)

During the debate, Deputy Dowling suggested that fatigue duties should be abolished. As the Deputy will know, fatigue duties can be popular or unpopular depending on the men. I agree with the Deputy that in general fatigues are not popular but it must be accepted that they are more or less a permanent feature of military life. I will have the Deputy's suggestion examined.

Deputy Cooney referred to the employment of civilian orderlies for fatigue duties in barracks. There are 93 civilians employed in barracks throughout the country to do cleaning duties and civilian boilermen are employed to maintain the solid fuel heating systems in barracks. It is not practicable, however, to relieve soldiers of all fatigue duties. Indeed, there are good reasons why men should be responsible for the cleanliness of their own quarters and why the Army as a whole should not be too dependent on civilian assistance.

Deputies Clinton and Tully made complaints about representations to Members of the Oireachtas by serving personnel. Members of the Defence Forces are expressly forbidden from addressing communications or requests on service matters to Members of Dáil Éireann, Seanad Éireann, other public bodies or members of the Press. The reason for such restraints, which are common to other Government employees, must be obvious to anyone who wishes to preserve the non-political character of the Army. I should add that procedures whereby Army personnel can apply for redress of wrongs or pursue complaints are provided for in the Defence Act of 1954 and in Defence Forces regulations. The terms of these procedures are brought to the notice of all ranks.

Quite obviously the Minister has not served in the Army.

I served in branches of the Army. I served in the FCA and the LDF.

I am talking about the regular Army. The Minister would have something to complain about. Tell a commanding officer to right some wrong and see where you get.

Or try to get a medical card from him.

Conditions are so good that members have nothing to complain about.

Do not be codding yourself.

The Minister must be allowed to conclude.

I think adequate facilities are available——

I assure the Minister they are not.

Deputies Clinton and Tully referred to the promotion of NCOs to officer rank. A limited number of NCOs have been selected in the past to undergo potential officer courses and have been appointed officers on successful completion of those courses. A competition was held in 1970 and 31 NCOs who had successfully completed their courses were appointed officers in December of that year. It is proposed to have further officers' courses. This is a system which is acceptable and which has proved satisfactory and it will be continued.

If the Minister is to build up the Army the place to get officers is from the ranks of serving members.

Deputies Clinton and Dowling referred to the need for resettlement arrangements for personnel on leaving the Army. I will deal with this at length to indicate clearly that opportunities and concessions are made available to military personnel on retirement. There is a scheme of concessions in existence to assist ex-servicemen to secure employment in Government Departments. The scheme provides for the awarding of extra marks and an extension of normal upper age limits in competitions as:

(a) General service clerical officer, departmental clerical officer and tax officer in the Civil Service;

(b) Assistant preventive officer;

(c) Prison officer;

(d) Male attendant in the Central Mental Hospital, Dundrum;

(e) Postman;

(f) Driver tester.

The Deputy will appreciate, therefore, that facilities and concessions are made available to military personnel on a fairly liberal basis in their resettlement. The scheme in operation also provides for preference for ex-members of the permanent Defence Forces in the filling of subordinate posts in Government Departments. These concessions are available during a period of two years after completion of service in the permanent Defence Forces.

In relation to the AnCO training scheme, arrangements exist for the attendance of Army personnel of 40 years and upwards at courses of training in such skills as turning, grinding, milling, welding, et cetera, at training centres under AnCO control. There is a very good liaison between the Department of Defence and AnCO and a number of very useful schemes are in operation to the advantage of apprentices and serving personnel.

In the matter of further education courses, arrangements exist for the attendance of other ranks in the permanent Defence Forces at courses leading to the leaving certificate and group certificates. The purpose of these courses is to raise the educational standard of the men in the permanent Defence Forces which would enhance their prospect of employment on return to civilian life. This is a very useful development. It permits serving personnel to continue with their studies and go on to leaving certificate, day group certificate and so on. We have 43 men enrolled at six centres at present on leaving certificate courses and on day group certificate courses there are 85 men enrolled at five centres. This is a welcome innovation and gives serving personnel an opportunity to continue with their education.

Deputy Dowling referred to the method of purchasing equipment for apprentice schools. I cannot accept that any serious problem exists regarding the equipment of these schools. I am satisfied that any particular need that is brought to attention through the normal channels can be provided for under existing arrangements. It is possible that there is some misunderstanding in the matter. If the Deputy has any particular case in mind we will be glad to hear of it.

Naas was very badly equipped. I do not know whether anything has been done there recently.

The question of Naas is under constant review. That, I suppose, is a familiar term but, anyway, we are conscious of the importance of Naas as a training centre and I can assure the Deputy that any shortcomings there will be made good as quickly as possible.

The question of the high rate of income tax deductions was raised by Deputy Collins. Each year, in anticipation of the income tax assessment being received from the Revenue Commissioners, my Department make arrangements whereby non-commissioned officers and men are encouraged to agree to the recovery from their pay each week of a sum approximating to what they would have to pay under PAYE. Unfortunately, a large number of personnel do not avail of this facility and it is necessary, when the tax assessment becomes available from the Revenue Commissioners in the autumn, to recover in many cases large sums and this is a very painful operation.

Why is it not made compulsory? Why not insist from the start that they do pay?

The facility is available whereby the men can opt to pay a certain amount each week.

Yes, but it is made compulsory after six months. Why not make it compulsory from the start? It is done with us all.

That is the PAYE system.

It does not matter what it is called. The Minister should hear what the soldiers call the other one.

Some proposals for an improvement in the present system are being examined at the moment and we hope to make the operation as painless as possible.

Deputies Clinton, Tully and Dowling referred to the provision of housing accommodation. This, too, is an old chestnut, of course. I explained on previous occasions that the local authorities are primarily responsible for the provision of housing and soldiers have an equal claim on local authority houses with other members of the community. Army accommodation has already been considerably improved in recent years and within the limits of the available resources it is my intention to have this improvement continued. We will do a certain amount in relation to accommodation but, in the main, it will be a matter for the local authorities. Where the need seems greatest we will endeavour to provide some assistance.

Deputy Clinton referred to the ages of serving personnel and contended that the average age of personnel was too high. We look upon the age as being reasonably satisfactory. For the information of the Deputy, 80 per cent of all non-commissioned personnel and 55 per cent of line officers are under 40 years of age. This, I think, is a fairly satisfactory state of affairs. Some imbalance in the officer age structure will be corrected I expect by the increased numbers of cadets coming in. This 55 per cent will be raised.

Deputies Coughlan, Clinton, Nolan and Cosgrave referred to compulsory military training as part of the ordinary educational facilities. This in the main and in a general way would be desirable but there is no legislation in existence under which it could be introduced. This is something that might be considered in the future. It is a policy matter and it is something towards which I would be, on the general principle, favourably disposed.

Deputy Malone referred to the rehabilitation of the Curragh lands. Following the reception of a deputation from the Curragh Sheepowners Association in June, 1970, proposals for the fertilisation and rehabilitation of the Curragh lands which would not impose any financial burden on the State were invited. We had a discussion with a representative group and outline proposals were received from a joint executive of the Curragh Sheepowners and Claimowners Associations who are working in conjunction with the Kildare County Committee of Agriculture. Detailed proposals are now awaited and will be sympathetically examined. We are well disposed to be helpful in this connection. The association have also been invited to submit proposals which would not impose any financial liability on the State for the eradication of furze and the clearing up of the lands and at the same time being mindful of the military requirements there. The Department of Defence are doing a reasonable operation in relation to the Curragh lands and they should not be expected to undergo any further expenses in improving the lands for the users.

The Naval Service came in for some comment by a number of Deputies, especially Deputy Kavanagh. I want to put on record that three coastal minesweepers were purchased last year which was a considerable improvement in the naval position. These vessels are capable of not alone fulfilling a naval role but they are suitable for fishery protection duties as well and they have been found very effective in this role by other countries. As well as that, a new all-weather fishery protection vessel is under construction in the Verolme Dockyard, Cork, and is nearing completion. This vessel, which has very modern equipment, is expected to be in commission by the end of April next. It is evident that the Naval Service has had a considerable boost this year and while much more needs to be done to bring it to maximum effectiveness strides have been made and will continue to be made to improve this highly valuable service especially in the context of future fishery protection.

The question of the strength of the Naval Service was raised by a number of Deputies. The efforts to recruit personnel were tremendously successful to a point where recruitment had to be stopped. A total of 186 recruits were enlisted in the service during 1971. There is, of course, the old problem of the shortage of executive branch officers. We are conscious of the need to improve and increase our naval executive officer strength and measures are in hand which we expect will attract suitable personnel.

You are not paying them enough.

We are in a highly competitive market and we find it difficult to compete with the merchant navy. However, we are endeavouring to remedy that and we hope that what we propose will have the effect of attracting suitable people. I am sure the Deputy appreciates that we have a problem. We are ourselves well aware of it.

Deputy Nolan and Deputy Esmonde proposed that the Naval Service should be permitted to make foreign cruises. This would certainly be an innovation. It is a proposal towards which I am personally well disposed and it is a proposal that will be put into effect at the earliest possible opportunity. I am not saying how soon that will be, but the proposal is being examined. It is a commendable one and, as soon as we find it possible to do so, we will consider providing for foreign trips for our navy.

On the subject of naval operations, a number of Deputies referred to the adequacy, or inadequacy, of An Slua Mhuirí equipment. Each company there are two in Dublin, one in Cork. one in Limerick and one in Waterford —is equipped with one whaler for sailing and rowing. A motorised whaler is on order. It will be delivered before March, 1972. We recognise that An Slua Mhuirí needs attention and we are examining what can be done. We are conscious of the need to provide suitable vessels for this valuable branch of the Defence Forces and we are examining certain types of vessels which might be suitable.

Deputy Kavanagh and Deputy Esmonde referred to the necessity for providing a hydrographic survey. I dealt with this matter in reply to Parliamentary Questions during the year. The Government have decided in principle that such a service should be established as part of our Naval Service, but the implementation of that decision must be deferred until such time as the staffing resources of the Naval Service are brought fully up to strength. There are deficiencies in the service and, until such time as we provide the priority requirement of staff, it will not be possible to give attention to the provision of a hydrographic survey. As well as that, this is a type of service involving other Departments, principally the Department of Transport and Power, and, while a comprehensive study has not been made in recent times, the charts are periodically brought up to date; within the limits of available resources every effort is made to meet this requirement and keep the records correct.

Deputy Clinton referred to the Army Equitation School. The record for last year was not bad. Riders and horses won, or helped to win, as members of a mixed Army/civilian team eight first places at the eight international shows they attended during 1971. This was an improvement on the four first places secured in 1970. The total prize money won in 1971 was approximately £2,500. Bord na gCapall are at present availing of the stabling and other facilities at the Army School of Equitation for six of their horses. The training facilities are also being used by six civilian riders selected by the board under the direction of the board's civilian trainer and the services of that trainer are being availed of by the Department of Defence for a trial period of three months, ending 5th March, 1972, so that the prospect for the future is considerably improved. We hope that in the coming year this combination will have the effect of bringing further prizes to this country and recapturing some of the glory won by Army jumping teams in the past.

Is there any good reason why the Minister does not open this team to all ranks?

This was mentioned before. The qualities and application of military personnel generally are observed and it is easy to see whether a young man in either the non-commissioned or the commissioned ranks has any special application where horses are concerned.

Is the Minister saying he will have to make an officer of him before allowing him to jump?

That is a useful point.

I am sure the man would have no objection.

We are giving NCOs the opportunity of becoming commissioned officers and, if they show potential as horsemen, this is something we could usefully examine. Show jumping riders are very difficult to get in our experience in the cadet competitions and I would be anxious to consider any proposal which would make available to the Defence Forces and to the nation men of the calibre and quality competent to give good performances in international jumping arenas.

The Minister has, of course, heard of Sergeant Finlay.

One of our earliest star performers.

The matter, as I said, is worthy of consideration. It is only proper that we should give reasonable opportunities to all Defence Force personnel and I would be only too glad to do anything possible in this field.

Deputy Cosgrave referred to the reduction in the provision for the purchase of horses. In 1970-71 the amount provided was £16,000 and in 1969-70 it was only £12,000. It was felt that a provision of £11,000 would cater for likely offers of suitable horses. If, however, the sum does not prove sufficient, the question of making additional funds available will be considered. The purchase of suitable horses is kept under constant review and Bord na gCapall have also been consulted in this matter. This is part of the scheme of co-operation between the Departmen and the board and this is an aspect that will receive all the attention it merits.

Deputies referred to the military implications of our entry into the EEC. The position in relation to military commitment, if there is one, is outlined in paragraph 6.7, page 57, of the recent White Paper issued by the Government. The paragraph states:

The Irish Government, in applying for membership of the Communities, declared their acceptance of the Treaties of Rome and Paris, the decisions taken in their implementation and the political objectives of the Treaties. The Government have, furthermore, declared their readiness to join as a member of the enlarged Communities in working with the other member States towards the goal of political unification in Europe. It should, however, be emphasised that the Treaties of Rome and Paris do not entail any military or defence commitments and no such commitments are involved in Ireland's acceptance of these Treaties.

Deputy Dowling referred to the question of gratuities for single officers and men on the termination of their service. This is a matter which has been and is being considered by my Department. There are some difficulties involved and there is no immediate solution envisaged. The position is that married rates of pay for officers and men are higher than those for single personnel of the same rank. Yet the pensions for married and single personnel are not very different in amount. In the case of officers the maximum pay of single officers represents a much higher percentage of pay than does that of a married officer. A single soldier receives the same basic pension as a married soldier though the latter's rate of pay is much higher. A married soldier receives a married pension, of course, in addition to his basic pension.

Deputy Cosgrave raised the question of pensions. He claimed that the 1937 scheme was a contributory scheme and that the widows of officers who died before the full contribution scheme came into operation in 1970 should, therefore, receive the full contributory pension. The position is that the 1937 pension scheme was not, nor could it be regarded, as a contributory scheme. There can be no justification, therefore, for paying a full contributory pension in such cases. The benefit has been in operation since 1937 while it has only become operative in the Civil Service and local authority service from 1st October, 1969.

I think I have referred to most points raised by Deputies but there is one here which was raised by Deputy Davern and about which a number of Deputies may be concerned. It concerns the qualifications for IRA widows' pensions, the scheme which was brought into operation last year. There have been instances where for one reason or another persons qualified for pensions did not accept them. The qualification here is that if a member is entitled to a pension by reason of a certificate issued by the referee his widow gets the pension. We have no case of a refusal. This is important because on personal considerations of principle and so on some of those granted pensions did not accept them.

The whole trouble is over the special allowance. That is the great case of trouble and confusion. Some were really entitled to pensions and did not get them for a variety of reasons.

I appreciate the Deputy's point but at this late stage it would be impossible to review the entire pensions position. I have covered most of the main points made by Deputies. Those to which I have not referred will receive due consideration. The House may expect to receive my full co-operation on any proposals which would make for the betterment of the Defence Forces.

Might I ask the Minister about a matter he appears to have overlooked? I referred in my contribution to the question of the evacuated Gormanston Camp. Has the Minister had an opportunity of rectifying the situation there? He is aware that certain people are prepared to treat it as the cratering of Border roads is being treated by the same type of people and there is likely to be action by people who will be encouraged by those concerned. Surely the closing of that gate is in the very same category as the cratering of Border roads, preventing people having free use of a public road which they have used for 30 or 40 years.

The Deputy is probably exaggerating the position a little.

I am not.

As I informed him on a previous occasion, I am investigating this matter. There is a matter of the security that must be observed and there is the question of making personnel available to look after the gates which will have to be closed at a certain time. The aggrieved people have remedies. They have ways of reaching their homes and in any case it is a problem we are looking into at present.

The legal advice they have is that you have no right to close the gate on them.

I could not concede that point.

That is their legal advice. If the gate is blown off its hinges by some illegal organisation the Minister will put a full guard on it for 24 hours a day, I am quite sure. He says now he has no personnel and cannot put a barrack policeman on it until 12 o'clock at night. That is rather stupid.

That is only part of the story.

I live and have lived there for a long time and I should know the whole story. During the Emergency the gate was open until 12 o'clock at night every night.

I shall endeavour to ensure that no injustice will be done to anybody.

Would the Minister consider getting the Army legal advisers to contact these people with regard to the purchase of their holding there? Although the Minister said he thought this had been done, it has not been done yet.

This would be very acceptable if it were possible.

Arrangements can be made if the Minister is prepared to consider them.

I will give that proposal every consideration.

Vote put and agreed to.
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