Dáil Éireann debate -
Wednesday, 22 Mar 1972

Vol. 259 No. 14

Committee on Finance. - Vote 8: Public Works and Buildings (Resumed).

Debate resumed on the following motion:

That a supplementary sum not exceeding £100,000 be granted to defray the charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1972, for the salaries and expenses of the Office of Public Works; for expenditure in respect of public buildings; for the maintenance of certain parks and public works; for the execution and maintenance of drainage and other engineering works; and for payment of certain grants-in-aid.

—(Minister for Local Government.)

Mr. Finn

I spoke on this for five minutes yesterday evening. The most serious problem affecting County Mayo is drainage. The Moy drainage scheme was not completed. Something in the region of 800 extra works were not included in that scheme. The people in the south of the county near the Corrib-Mask-Robe and the Lung felt that the machinery should be transferred from the Moy to those rivers. Thousands of acres of land in the south of County Mayo have been left flooded. It would be a great help to a small farmer in the west to get a land project grant for ten, 15 or 20 acres.

I see there is no allocation for the Lung, for the Robe or for the Mask. I cannot understand why that scheme was not continued. I do not blame the Parliamentary Secretary. I am sure he is doing his best to get the necessary finance from the Minister. I would suggest that the main arterial river should be done. This would be of tremendous benefit because farmers in modern conditions could do a lot of this work themselves in the catchment areas. There have been several protests from farmers' organisations in the south of the county about the drainage of the Robe and the Mask. There was no money made available in the main Estimate and there is none in this Supplementary Estimate. I suggest that the Parliamentary Secretary should allocate some money so that at least the main artery could be opened. Not alone would this help the farmers but it would be of great benefit to us as politicians. We have been blamed for the delay in carrying out this work.

I come now to the question of schools. There are some very poor schools in County Mayo, particularly national schools. Some schools have only dry toilets and have no running water. In some cases extensions are urgently required. In Bonniconlon national school 30 pupils are being taught in a hallway. A pre-fab extension should be provided without delay so that the children can be taught in normal and healthy conditions. With other Deputies and Senators from the area, I visited that school. The conditions there are appalling. I trust the necessary accommodation will be provided immediately.

The same applies in the case of Balla where an extension has been sought for a considerable time. The Prison and Balla schools have been amalgamated. There is not sufficient accommodation not only for the Prison children but for the Balla children. The extension to Balla school should be carried out immediately. In Ballina vocational school the number of pupils has doubled in the past three years. An extension is being sought which I hope will be provided.

An Ceann Comhairle

Would this be a matter for Education rather than for the Office of Public Works?

Mr. Finn

No, it is the Office of Public Works who must provide the money. The Department of Education have agreed. I had a letter yesterday from the parents committee of the Cloonlyon school in Charlestown, County Mayo. A strike is taking place there at the moment. I have been asked to raise this case as a matter of urgency. The manager and the parents are very anxious that the work should be carried out immediately but it would seem that they are not getting any assistance from the Departments concerned. It is not good for the community that a strike should take place. The amount of money required to provide water and sewerage for small schools is a matter of only £2,000 or £3,000. I am quite confident that the manager and the parents' association have done their best to have the accommodation provided. It is tragic that there should have to be a strike because of appalling conditions. This occurred in my parish also. Thank God, that has been rectified.

An Ceann Comhairle

Surely it is a matter for the Minister for Education to sanction the expenditure?

Mr. Finn

When the Minister for Education has given sanction, as he has in practically all of these cases, it is the duty of the Office of Public Works to provide the money. I do not know whether it is the Department of Education or the Office of Public Works who give the percentage grant. If it is the Department of Finance who pay the money, I would suggest that in areas where the holdings are small, a larger proportion of grants should be given. Nine-tenths is the proportion given in certain cases but where there is hardship and money has to be collected from poor people the grant should be almost 100 per cent.

An Ceann Comhairle

The percentage grant is a matter for Education. The Office of Public Works, on the instructions of the Minister for Education, carry out many of the projects mentioned by the Deputy. It is not a matter for the Office of Public Works.

Mr. Finn

Who pays?

Mr. Lemass

We act as the agents for the Department of Education who decide on policy.

Mr. Finn

The Department of Education recommend to you, and you pay the money?

Mr. Lemass

They define the amount of the grant.

Mr. Finn

The only problem in the Parliamentary Secretary's case is the delay in giving the money. Sometimes there is delay. The Parliamentary Secretary would agree with me on that?

Mr. Lemass

No, I do not think there is undue delay at any time. There is at times a delay if some of the works are not carried out to the satisfaction of the architect.

Mr. Finn

Sometimes you may not have the necessary money. I want to compliment the Parliamentary Secretary. He has sanctioned the school for mentally handicapped in Castlebar. I want to thank the Office of Public Works for the Broadhaven Bay development which is taking place and which was very badly needed in the west of the county.

Mr. J. Lenehan

The Deputy will not get any votes on that one.

Mr. Finn

When we have a five-seater we will be getting votes and I will be getting a few down there.

An Ceann Comhairle

I am sorry to interrupt Deputy Finn again. The debate on this Estimate concludes at 11 a.m. and the Parliamentary Secretary will be called at 10.55 to conclude. Other Deputies may want to intervene in the meantime.

Mr. Finn

I am sorry.

An Ceann Comhairle

I am sorry too, but this is the agreement reached by the House.

Mr. Treacy

Could I avail of this opportunity to impress upon the Parliamentary Secretary and his office the urgency and importance of implementing the arterial drainage of the River Suir and its tributaries? The Parliamentary Secretary will be aware of the very strong representations made over the years for the commencement of this work. He must be aware of the constant recurring flooding in the Suir basin from Thurles to Waterford. Any information the Parliamentary Secretary can let me have in respect of this matter will be very welcome. We had reason to believe that the work would commence in 1970, likewise in 1971. We are now in 1972. The condition of the river is extremely bad. The basin is cluttered in many parts and this contributes to flooding. The tributaries are also in a bad condition due to weeds and other obstacles.

The local authorities in my constituency are unable to cope with the work of relieving flooding in the Suir and its tributaries. For the past number of years they have been hoping that this much needed work would be commenced. The Suir is one of the largest rivers in Ireland and serves some of the best land. Farmers have sustained grievous loss in recent years because of the inundation of their land. Lives have been lost, property destroyed. The local authorities are gravely perturbed. I shall be very grateful if the Parliamentary Secretary can indicate when the arterial drainage of the Suir will commence so that, at long last, we in Tipperary will be rid of the terrible scourge of constant and recurring flooding that we have had to endure for so long.

Mr. J. Lenehan

I have been listening to Deputy Finn talking about the terrible position in east Mayo. If it is as bad as the Deputy has pointed out, in my opinion it must be due to poor representation of the constituents. We have no serious trouble in west Mayo with regard to schools but, of course, everyone knows who are the representatives of west Mayo.

I want to thank the Parliamentary Secretary for dealing with the problem at Broadhaven. This matter has been under consideration for a considerable time but finally it has received attention. The Mayo County Council have undertaken to help and I hope the Parliamentary Secretary will ensure that the work is carried out. These piers are badly needed and I want to thank the Parliamentary Secretary for his help in this matter. The provision of the piers will contribute in a major way to the economy of north-west Mayo.

With regard to schools, it is no use blaming the Government or the Office of Public Works. Where there is a good manager there will be a good school but if the manager is lackadaisical the school will suffer. In my part of the county we have not got a problem with regard to schools. If schools are not improved or if new buildings are not provided it is not the fault of the Parliamentary Secretary.

However, when the old schools are vacated they should revert to the Government as some kind of compensation. They should be dealt with by them and should not be sold privately or be allowed to stand idle. In many cases the buildings are quite good; they may not be large enough for schools but some use should be made of them rather than allowing them to become derelict buildings.

With regard to the construction of schools, we should stop building these new glasshouses. Whoever had the brilliant idea of building these glasshouses in the west probably thought that the population will decline in the near future and cheap glasshouses will be available then. In the winter these new buildings are like fridges but in the summer they are much too warm. In fact, they would be ideal for growing tomatoes.

I should like to refer to the maintenance of river drainage. The maintenance of the River Moy will mean a tremendous impost on rates in County Mayo; I think it will be in the region of about £80,000. The people of Mayo cannot afford to pay this amount of money. The river serves only a small part of the county and it is difficult to see how a man living in Blacksod or in Achill should be asked to pay for the maintenance of a river that is many miles away. The people whose lands are improved because drainage work has been carried out are those who should pay the cost. I would ask the Parliamentary Secretary to reconsider the decision in this case and to give some grant for maintenance of the river.

Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister for Finance (Mr. Lemass)

Many of the items mentioned in this debate dealt with individual schools, Garda stations and local problems that affect the various constituencies. As I have only five minutes to conclude I shall communicate by letter with the Deputies on the matters they raised.

However, there are a few points I should like to deal with, especially some matters mentioned by Deputy Kenny and Deputy Finn. I should like to tell them that so far as arterial drainage is concerned we are working from a 30-year-old brief. I do not know why everyone should be so pessimistic.

As a result of the survey we are carrying out, I expect that there will be greater activity. If we become members of the EEC, good drained land will be in much greater demand but, on the other hand, if we do not join the EEC—I hope this will not happen—agriculture will become depressed. There is more than adequate good land available that is not now being used. Therefore, it is in the national interest that we have our information brought up to date in the context of the evolving situation.

Deputy Fitzpatrick spoke about the purchase of property by the Office of Public Works. They have a special property section that deal with the acquisition of properties for State purposes and the disposal of surplus State properties. On the whole, the activities of this section are worthwhile and they do a good job.

Deputy Kenny suggested that allowances should be made for possible pay increases when the Estimates are being prepared. However, the long-established rule is that Estimates are prepared on the basis of known requirements and commitments. To allow for contingencies would be an undesirable and, perhaps, dangerous practice.

Deputy Spring was concerned about maintenance of national monuments. Without dealing with the individual cases he mentioned, I should like to say that the provision for this service has increased from a sum of £60,000 in 1966-67 to £222,000 in the current year. I admit there is a considerable backlog of work to be overtaken but we are doing this and the progress made is encouraging. We are conscious of the necessity to provide a good service and we welcome the interest of Deputies, whether by way of complaint or compliment.

Deputy Timmons was concerned about the Asgard and I would point out that there is provision for this matter in the Estimate. The future of the Asgard is ensured and I should like to congratulate the committee for the excellent work they have done. In relation to Howth Harbour, major works will start later this year and I shall have the seats examined to make sure that they are in good repair.

With regard to drainage maintenance works, the money is recoverable from the local authority. It is not true to say that work is limited by the money available. The purpose of this section of the 1945 Act is to ensure that maintenance will be of a high standard and this is kept in mind at all times. Consultations take place between local county engineers and engineers from the Office of Public Works in relation to drainage maintenance works. The General Council of County Councils have been informed that full consultation is welcomed by the engineers from the Office of Public Works.

The cost benefit survey is well advanced and a report is expected before the end of this year. As the capital cost of arterial drainage is a national charge, it is right that the benefits derived by the nation as a whole should be assessed and related to the total cost.

I commend the Supplementary Estimate to the House.

Mr. Treacy

Will the Parliamentary Secretary get in touch with Deputies in relation to matters referred to yesterday?

Mr. Lemass

Yes, but I did not have time to go into detail. I have the notes here.

Vote put and agreed to.