Dáil Éireann debate -
Wednesday, 22 Mar 1972

Vol. 259 No. 14

Committee on Finance. - Vote 43: Defence.

Minister for Defence (Mr. Cronin)

I move:

That a supplementary sum not exceeding £3,254,000 be granted to defray the charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1972, for the salaries and expenses of the Office of the Minister for Defence, including certain services administered by that Office; for the pay and expenses of the Defence Forces; and payment of a grant-in-aid.

When introducing the main Defence Estimate for the present financial year last December, I said that I would be introducing later in the year a Supplementary Estimate of the order of £3,000,000. It is this Supplementary Estimate which I am now introducing, and it is for the sum of £3,254,000. It is attributable mainly to the provision of new and increased equipment for the Defence Forces; to increases in pay and allowances; to the expenses of the Cyprus operation; and to the cost of officers and men of the 1st Line Reserve on full-time service and of An Fórsa Cosanta Áitiúil on additional duties and training.

If I run through the main subheads briefly it may be of assistance to Deputies. The additional sum of £37,000 required under subhead A— Departmental Salaries—is necessitated by salary increases, including the first phase of the 13th round of the national wage agreement. Under subhead B—Pay of Permanent Defence Force—an additional sum of £242,000 is required to meet the cost of pay increases and of the Cyprus operation, for which provision was not made in the main Estimate.

There is provision for an additional sum of £324,000 under subhead D— Pay et cetera of Reserve Defence Forces. Most of this relates to the cost of the pay of certain members of the Reserve of Officers and Men (1st Line) on full-time service and to the cost of additional duties and training undertaken by members of An Fórsa Cosanta Áitiúil. The increase of £200,000 under subhead F—Pay et cetera of civilians attached to units— is due to pay increases granted to civilian employees.

There are substantial increases in subhead H—Defensive Equipment; J— Mechanical Transport; M—Clothing and Equipment; Q.1—General Stores and T—Barrack Services. Practically all these increases totalling £1,985,000 are due to the provision of new and increased equipment. There are smaller increases in a number of other subheads but I do not think that I need delay over these.

The Government have decided to make a contribution of £100,000 towards the relief of distress in the People's Republic of Bangladesh. Of this sum, £15,000 will be channelled through the Irish Red Cross Society and will be met from the £8,000 under subhead BB—Irish Red Cross Society —Grant-in-Aid and expected savings of £7,000 on that subhead in the current year's Vote.

As regards appropriations in aid, there is a substantial shortfall in anticipated receipts from the United Nations in respect of the Cyprus peacekeeping operation. When the main Estimate was being framed it was expected that a total of £550,000 would be received this year but so far £232,817 only has been realised. The Minister for Foreign Affairs is pressing vigorously for payment of the outstanding accounts.

There is also before the House a Supplementary Estimate of £381,000 for Army Pensions. This Estimate is due mainly to improved benefits.

Following the introduction of a gratuity for married soldiers on discharge, more non-commissioned officers and privates than anticipated applied for and were granted their discharge, resulting in an excess on subhead E.

The biggest increase is under subhead M, which covers free travel, electricity, and television licences for veterans of the War of Independence. The extent to which the free travel would be availed of was underestimated. I am happy about this as it shows that the veterans are still well able to get about. The sum now required also covers arrears from previous years. The estimated cost of these concessions is now about £215,000 a year.

The extra amounts required under subheads B and C are relatively small and are due to a greater number of pensions and allowances being granted than was provided for.

Under subhead L, which provides for compensation in cases where death or disability is due to service with the United Nations, only a token sum had been provided. Compensation was, however, paid in respect of disabilities and one death. This sum is recoverable from the United Nations.

The increase in appropriations in aid arises from a greater number of officers retiring than anticipated. The receipts are mainly by way of deduction from their gratuities and represent their contributions to a pension scheme for widows and children.

Mr. Clinton

When the Minister introduced his main Estimate he informed the House of the likelihood of his coming back with a Supplementary Estimate in the region of £3 million. This figure has been exceeded. Supplementary Estimates for every Department have become so substantial that it is my opinion they are being used as a means of delaying the shock to the taxpayers at Budget time. We have been told by at least one Government spokesman that there is no reason why we should have to adhere to the old idea of one Budget per year. At the same time agencies providing services for the State, for instance, the voluntary hospitals are being asked to budget five years ahead. I would like to ask the Minister what are the prospects of his budgeting five years ahead and thereby giving the Army some indication of what the future holds for them.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

The Deputy is aware that he must discuss only the various supplementary headings.

Mr. Clinton

I am endeavouring to discuss the large Supplementary Estimate before us now. I wish to make it quite clear that I am not objecting to this Supplementary Estimate. I welcome it, as I welcome any increased expenditure for the Army.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

The Deputy must not discuss policy at this stage.

Mr. Clinton

Perhaps I have strayed slightly but only for the purpose of drawing attention to the undesirability of large Supplementary Estimates. This extra amount is welcome mainly because of the exceptional circumstances in which we find ourselves now and because also of the way in which the Government have allowed the Army to reach a dangerously low level at a time when there is a great need to make the Army a more attractive and rewarding career for men not only so far as their serving is concerned but rewarding, too, in the context of the nation, when they return to use the training and the skills they have acquired in the Army in industry and in the services. I welcome this expenditure because at least it is indicative of the fact that there is something being done for the Army. We are dealing with two separate Estimates in this Supplementary: one for pensions and one covering almost every possible activity in the Army. It opens up a discussion on almost everything that the Army does. The time arranged here is very short and I should like that you, Sir, would not restrict us unduly in our comments because of this.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

The Chair has no control over that. The arrangement made by the House is that it should be finished by 1 o'clock.

Mr. Clinton

Yes. By far the biggest item in the Supplementary Estimate is for what is described as defensive equipment, £984,000. How is one to comment on these purchases if, whenever we ask a question about them, we are told that it is not in the interest of security that such disclosures should be made? I only partly accept this view, because it asks us in the opposition benches and it asks the people to make a complete act of faith in the Minister for Defence and in the Government, and this is something I am certainly not prepared to do with a Government that has allowed the Army to run down to a dangerously low level and that has put the security of this State at serious risk as a result. It is very difficult for Opposition Deputies to comment intelligently if they are denied any knowledge of what is happening in the Army.

The gentlemen of the Press who have been brought in recently to talk to the officers commanding the various units in the Army are doing a very useful job. They are getting more information than we are getting in the House, and I have no objection to that. It is important that they should get it, and personally I do not believe it is putting the security of the State at the slightest extra risk that these disclosures should be made. Otherwise anything could be happening behind the backs of the Members of this House and behind the people's backs.

I am not suspicious that there are a whole lot of things going wrong, but recently I asked a question of the Minister for Defence about a purchase in Sweden. I asked it because there was an article in a Swedish newspaper giving exactly the description that I gave here. The Minister was not in the House, but the Parliamentary Secretary was answering for him. My recollection of what he said to me when I asked a supplementary was that Hans Andersen would never be dead as long as the Deputy was in the House or something of that description, that it was a fairy tale, in other words. I wanted the Minister to comment on these purchases and to refute this article if it could be refuted. I was subsequently described by one of the political correspondents as a Paddy basher. I have no interest in being a Paddy basher. I am interested in the Army being built up to sufficient strength that the people can feel secure and mainly feel secure against subversive elements within the State and not from outside the State. There are many of us not satisfied that it is built up to this strength at the moment.

The fact that this extra money is being provided is an indication that an effort is being made to buy the necessary equipment and upgrade standards in the Army to make it more attractive for people to join the Army and serve. We have a long way to go yet and people should be put on warning that this is so, that an immense amount of money will have to be spent on the Army before reasonable standards have been provided, and every time I visit an Army establishment my view in this regard is reinforced. There is ample evidence to indicate that our people serving in the Army are being required to live at slum standards. I recently visited Border posts, and the standards I saw in at least one of these posts appalled me. The Minister visited these posts and I am quite sure he saw at least as much as I did. It is a terrible thing that men who have served years in the Army have not even a wardrobe in which to hang their clothes or even a chair on which to sit down in their billets; that they have not even a locker in which they can put their most treasured possessions and turn a key on them.

It is not good enough to see men lying on blankets and on mattresses that were bought 20 years ago. We still have the old grey blankets. Looking at these blankets one does not know whether they were washed this week or last year. I am sure they are not dirty but they look terrible. One gets nothing but the impression of a slum. There is overcrowding and there is no furniture or only the most deplorable slum-type furniture. The decoration is also deplorable in these places. Quite a small expenditure would upgrade these standards, which people do not have to endure in their own homes.

When I visited the married accommodation that had been improved in the Curragh and when these people got an opportunity of decorating their own homes I could not have been more impressed than I was by the way they did this, the interest they took in their homes and the furniture that they themselves provided. People who have to sleep in barracks, as most of these people have to at the present time to be available, should not have to endure these standards. I am sure the Minister will not disagree with me that these standards are not good enough for men who are expected to do duty for the State and to preserve the security of the State. I would hope that some of the money being made available would be used for the purpose of providing these ordinary amenities so that life would be a little bit more comfortable and enjoyable for people who are giving valuable service to the State.

There is no doubt that the North of Ireland situation has placed a very heavy burden on the limited numbers we have in the Army. I understand that recruiting is going very well. I was surprised the Minister did not refer to this in the course of his statement. I am glad to hear it is going well, but this periodic burst of recruitment is not the way to do it; it places an extra strain on the resources of the Army. It should be open at all times and if the career is made sufficiently attractive and rewarding there will be a constant flow of people into the Army. Periodic bursts of this kind put a very big strain on those who have to take charge and provide accommodation and everything else that goes with the training of new recruits.

It is relevant, I think, to refer in passing to the Border situation and those on duty there. I am quite convinced that the accommodation is totally inadequate. At one of the posts it would be possible to double or treble the numbers provided suitable additional accommodation is rented. That should be done. I do not want to name numbers but there is one extremely small unit. It is very difficult for a small unit to be effective. All units are really only token units. This may not be sufficient. There was an incident last Sunday which, I am sure, all of us deplore. Military personnel trying to preserve peace on the Border were attacked by subversive elements.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

We may not deal with that situation under this Supplementary Estimate.

Mr. Clinton

I merely want to point out that the Army personnel were not equipped with riot control equipment. No one wants the Army to start shooting; that is the last thing anyone wants. Military personnel are trained in the code of violence, to suppress it in peacetime and to use it in wartime. When rifles are taken off our armed forces and the air is let out of the tyres of armoured cars then there is a serious situation and this sort of thing should not be allowed to happen. If the right sort of riot control equipment were supplied it could not and would not happen.

One of the things that pleases me greatly is the co-operation that appears to exist between the Garda and the Army. The situation is urgent. On one side of the Border there are paratroopers equipped with riot control equipment, with gas, with clubs and with shields. On the other side there is none of this. A small number of paratroopers can push a very large crowd in front of them. On this side of the Border we are not able to control a very large crowd. A small number of military personnel are pushed out of the way, unless they start shooting, and nobody wants them to do that. They should be able to ensure that no subversive element is allowed to take over and abuse or ill-use military personnel or the gardaí. The gardaí are not equipped with gasmasks. Surely this should be elementary equipment for them. I believe the Army have masks. I do not know what happened on Sunday and the Minister should use this occasion to let the House know something about what did happen. I believe our troops are quite capable of giving a good account of themselves in any circumstances provided they are in sufficient numbers and properly equipped to meet a particular situation.

I am glad money is being spent on suitable transport. We saw the report in the newspapers—we depend on reports in the newspapers now—about five armoured personnel carriers arriving in Dublin yesterday. This is the kind of equipment we, on this side of the House, have been pressing the Minister to purchase for some considerable time. Without this kind of equipment it is quite hopeless to expect our soldiers to do a job. The Minister merely told us today that this equipment is defensive equipment. We should be given some more detail. We should be told the cost. We should be told something about the Unimogs purchased in Sweden. I am sure these Unimogs are quite good value for the money, but we should be told something about their condition. We are dealing with small money and this is a time in which we must make small money go a long way in providing the Army with the sort of equipment they should have. I am glad money has been spent on transport for the Army.

I would like the Minister to assure the House that we are reaching the point where the Army will be fairly adequately equipped in transport, armoured cars, personnel carriers and Land Rovers. These are the important things. How well are we equipped from the point of view of communications? How well are the Army equipped for keeping in touch? If different groups are advancing by different routes to a particular point are they adequately equipped to keep in touch with each other? This is extremely important. There is not much use in supplying some equipment if other equally important equipment is not supplied. The Minister could, with advantage, be much more forthcoming about these matters.

The pensions of officers who retired under the 1937 Act—there would not be very many of them—are very meagre indeed. Some of them are in very poor circumstances. In some cases there is great hardship. I doubt if the cost of doing something for these people would be very great. I believe it would be quite small. I appeal to the Minister to consider their position sympathetically. I have asked the Minister on a number of occasions if he could extend these pensions to people with special allowances. He has refused to do that. I hope at some future date he will be able to see his way to extending these pensions to these people.

From time to time I have asked a number of questions and I have got very inadequate replies. There is no good reason that I can see why the replies should be so inadequate. Single men in the Army get no gratuity and single officers are paid £300 to £500 less than married officers. They also have to pay for rations. On the Border at the moment the only people who have to pay for rations are single officers. Is there any reason why that should be so? A single officer is compelled to stay in barracks and he must pay for rations. A married officer does not have to pay. There is no good reason for this. Neither is there any good reason why the pay of single men should not be the same as that for married men. In reply to a question I was told that parity would cost something in region of £1 million. Surely they are all at a similar risk. In fact, we require more of the single man because he is required to stay in barracks; he is not permitted to live outside. Therefore, we are getting an additional service from the single man. The Minister said he was considering this situation. I hope he will soon reach the end of his consideration and make a decision that they should be paid the same as married men.

Mr. Coughlan

Like Deputy Clinton I shall be as brief as possible. Deputy Clinton says he is opposed to the introduction of Supplementary Estimates. I disagree with him. I think the Minister must be congratulated on this occasion.

Mr. Clinton

I said I had no objection to this one.

Mr. Coughlan

We are going through a very critical time and anything that will improve standards in the Army is welcome. We must not be niggardly. If we mean what we say we must give the Minister every support to improve the conditions of men serving in the Army. The men in the Army must put up with the rough as well as the smooth and at present it is more rough than smooth. I congratulate the Minister although in my view he has not asked for enough to bring standards up to the level at which we would wish them to be. However, he has done something. His predecessors were content to sit on their hands and to do damn all about the Army. He has taken it upon himself to initiate an intensive recruitment drive which has been generously responded to because of the conditions that were offered. If that had been done in the past there would have been much more recruitment throughout the country. However, it is never too late to begin.

There is discrimination within the ranks as between those permanently serving and those in the volunteer service. I cannot understand why men who volunteer for service in the FCA must pay a daily allowance of 5s as compared with the regular men, married men, who have no deductions made. I think it should be the other way round, that if there is any discrimination it should be in favour of the volunteers. Now that the Minister has put on the long finger compulsory Army training it would be a good thing if he introduced compulsory FCA training. During the holiday season boys of from 17 onwards should be compelled to spend, three, four or six weeks on Army service. It would be good for their morale and good for the nation. I would ask the Minister to consider seriously this appeal. I know that the ONE in the area from which I come have made recommendations to him along those lines. The Minister should consider what Army training would do for the disciplining of young boys which is most essential at present.

I cannot see why there are not more promotions from the ranks. Leaving certificate standard is required except in the case of people in the catering service in the Army. There is no reason why any boy who starts off on the barrack square at 17 or 19 years of age, if he has the ability, should not reach the top rank without a leaving certificate. Army life for some people is a dead end. This is natural. In other areas people leave for jobs elsewhere and girls get married but promotion in the Army is slow and tedious. A boy who has the ability and who has the Army technique, which is something which is acquired and cannot be bought, should have the opportunity of going into commissioned rank. The Minister should have a look at that.

To return to the FCA, I must congratulate the FCA units that paraded in Limerick on St. Patrick's Day. It was the largest ever parade of FCA men in the city of Limerick. Over 400 boys paraded and they were a credit to themselves and to their superior officers. I was only sorry that we had not twice as many. I must compliment the Minister. It is seldom I compliment officials but on this occasion I must compliment those in Limerick who turned out and who had those lads hopping off the ground like rubber balls, fit as fiddles, and a source of pride to anybody reviewing them as we were from the stand. I cannot see why that cannot be improved. This is a natural instinct in all of us. We were bred, I suppose, by the gun. We have a rebellious tradition. I am proud of it and we are all proud of it. Boys should be directed along the right line by bringing them into the FCA compulsorily and giving them opportunities of getting ahead.

A similar situation should exist in An Slua Mhuirí. There is absolutely nothing being done as far as I can see to encourage people to come into An Slua Mhuirí. There were people recruited during the Emergency and for some time afterwards but they were going into the barracks at night and getting some kind of lessons on blackboards and on paper. They did not get the practical experience that was necessary. The facilities were not available. The result is that An Slua Mhuirí have fragmented and are a thing of the past. It is a pity that the position has been allowed to drift. I would ask the Minister to give these boys what they want. At that age a man wants not so much theory as practice. The more activity there is in the Army the more the personnel are anxious to improve themselves.

I am glad that the Minister has provided for transport in this Estimate. I made an inspection of the vehicles that were available, as a result of which I said at the time and now repeat that those who got into the lorries were taking their lives in their hands. The vehicles could be described as ramshackle boneshakers and could not be sold as good scrap. The protection provided was negligible. The windows were not fixed. There is no room for jelly babies or goody goodies in the Army but men are entitled to frugal comfort. The vehicles provided do not come up to the required standard. I would ask the Minister to consider the provision of more modern transport facilities.

The uniforms supplied to the ranks are outdated and outmoded. An effort must be made to have them presentable. In the case of the officers and non-commissioned officers the uniform is presentable. In other cases it is not. In order to make the Army attractive, serving men should be provided with a presentable uniform. On parade, the uniform and the way the men lift their feet are important. Having regard to the uniform provided it is difficult for the men to lift their feet off the ground. I would ask the Minister to provide for soldiers the benefits and comforts that will make the FCA and the Army attractive to new recruits.

I realise that there must be a certain amount of secrecy and guarded talk and guarded action within the Army and that discipline must be maintained but that can be brought too far. I do not want to go into the question of a recent happening except to say that it did not serve any purpose. It related to something that we all knew had been happening for years. A song and dance was made about nothing.

I see no reason why Army personnel should not have the right to make representations to a public representative. That is forbidden in the Army. This can be overdone. Men serving in the Army should be allowed to make representations to public representatives on matters concerning conditions. I realise that standards and codes must be obeyed but there are situations where men have a genuine grievance and they should have the right to go to a public representative who will handle the case diplomatically. I am tempted to say more than I wish to say about what happened lately and the lack of diplomacy that was displayed. It was a mere boy scout effort, a boy scout approach to something that had been happening for years. I suppose somebody had to be the fall guy. It did not serve the Army any good to bring this case. There was nothing in it. It was over-played, as was proved. I would ask the Minister to use a bit of common sense in future and to remember that in our make-up we are essentially Republican and Army personnel are the same. Admittedly, they must conform. I would suggest that matters should be let lie and that hares should not be raised.

We have only an hour to discuss the Estimate but I wanted to bring the points I have mentioned to the Minister's attention. I hope he will apply himself to them so as to ensure that the Army is brought up to a standard that will make it attractive, particularly to recruits. Let us give all the help we can, as we are doing at present.

One regret I have is that many representations that I have made in regard to readmission to the Army have been rejected, no valid reason being stated. I was merely told that the man's period of service had expired, or that his services were no longer required. The reason should be stated. If it is the case that a man was absent without leave, that should be stated. A person who has committed an offence should be made to realise that fact. I would suggest that in such a case the man would be a better soldier on being readmitted. Discipline must be observed. I am a disciplinarian in many ways.

Mr. Clinton

I have never noticed it particularly.

Mr. Coughlan

There are times when a humane approach is called for. Misdemeanours must be allowed for. I would ask the Minister to be somewhat more lenient towards those who apply for readmission.

Deputy Davern rose.

Mr. Cosgrave

I just want to raise a few matters.

Mr. Davern

On a point of order, I have been here since 11.30.

Acting Chairman (Mr. Carter)

There are 20 minutes left. We are trying to share out the time. By agreement, the major part goes to the Opposition but would the Deputy in possession give five minutes to Deputy Davern?

Mr. Cosgrave

I hope that I shall not be five minutes.

Acting Chairman

We can only do this by agreement. I thank the Deputy.

Mr. Cosgrave

I want to raise a couple of matters, one of which I raised recently by way of parliamentary question. I refer to the position of a very limited category of Army pensioners, namely, the widows of officers who got pensions under the original 1937 scheme. As the Minister is aware, some changes were made in the scheme recently. As a result of such changes if an officer retires and subsequently dies his widow gets a higher pension. Everyone recognises that this is right and proper and was long overdue. However, a number of widows who are pensioners under the original scheme are in poor circumstances. Their rate of pension is so low that in some cases it barely exceeds the widows' and orphans' pension. I should be glad if this aspect of the pension scheme were examined and an effort made to do something for the people concerned.

Recent publicity has emphasised the importance to the country of the Army. A number of articles, particularly a recent series by Raymond Smith in the Evening Herald, indicated the extent of the goodwill that is available. I hope that the suggestions made in that series of articles, as well as in other articles, will be adopted as far as is practicable. Finally, I would repeat my recommendation that consideration should be given to changing the regulations in order to allow married men to enter the Army.

Mr. Davern

I should like to congratulate the Minister on the complete transformation he has made in the armed forces in the past two years and I should also like to welcome this Supplementary Estimate. While everyone realises that the Army deserve this extra money, some public benefit must be seen as a return on this investment.

I should like to suggest that there should be more integration between the public and the Army. The physical education instructors in the Army could be of benefit to the community, for instance, with regard to training in local youth clubs. Sport must play a greater part in Army training, particularly in view of the tremendous public appreciation of the Army that is evident now. The Minister should allow the Army to compete in the top-ranking sports in this country and in other countries. This would help to foster the image of the Army, both here and elsewhere.

Like Deputy Coughlan, I should like to see a better type uniform supplied to our armed forces. I know the Minister has a personal interest in the Army and that he will do what he can. A recruit in the Army starts with £15.50 per week and after a few weeks of training he receives £16. This is all-found and it is equivalent to approximately £24 or £25 per week. The recruiting campaign is proceeding satisfactorily and more than 500 have entered the Army.

Deputy Clinton made some derogatory remarks about the Border posts. He said that our force is only a token element along the Border——

Mr. Clinton

A token presence.

Mr. Davern

If 15,000 British troops, 8,000 police and goodness knows how many UDR men cannot control their side, how can we be expected to control the entire Border when we only have a total of 10,000 men?

Mr. Clinton

I am not asking for control of the Border. I am only saying that it is only a token presence.

Mr. Davern

I should like to sympathise with the relatives of the FCA man who was shot last weekend while on duty. It was a most unfortunate incident. I was glad to see that confidence in the FCA was restored immediately and that FCA units were on guard duty in the area immediately. This is very important because it is recognition of the FCA as a disciplined, positive force.

Every small village should have its own unit of the FCA. Some of the units consist of only five or six men but what is more important than numbers is that they should be good men. Deputy Cooney mentioned previously that there were many men carrying out paper work in the FCA and this is true. We should try to ensure that numbers are cut down to those sincere and dependable people who will attend regular training sessions. If those members do not maintain a certain standard of markmanship they could be transferred to some area of civil defence.

Deputy Cosgrave asked that married men be recruited into the Army and I support this suggestion. Quite a few men who have left the Army after three years have got married and now wish to re-enter. I do not know what are the financial implications in employing married men but I would ask the Minister to look into this matter.

Derogatory remarks were made about An Slua Mhuirí but I should like to emphasise that modern equipment has been obtained and all improvements will take time. Deputy Clinton cribbed about the Supplementary Estimate——

Mr. Clinton

I did not. I said that I welcomed the Supplementary Estimate. The Deputy should not misquote me. The Deputy is the second speaker who has made that statement.

Mr. Davern

A tremendous advance has been made in the Army. Perhaps I could mention that a man who started as a private in the Army was promoted Chief of Staff—I refer to the late General Delaney. This is proof that there is tremendous scope for all people who enter the Army. I hope the Minister will continue with his work and that we will have further Estimates in order to improve conditions in the Army. In this way we will have a proper security force.

Mr. Cooney

The efficiency of the Army depends on having a high morale and this depends on the contentment of the men and officers in the Army. They must believe that there is an overall plan and that there is coherent thinking and planning.

One matter that leaps to one's attention in the Supplementary Estimate is subhead H under the heading "Defensive Equipment". The original Estimate was for £267,000 and the Supplementary Estimate is for £984,000— nearly three times as much. This highlights the fact that there is no overall planning in the Department of Defence.

It is inevitable that there will be complaints about conditions in the Army. A small number of officers who served with the United Nations Truce Supervisory Organisation prior to 1st June, 1967, are prejudiced in relation to officers who served after that date because they do not get the daily allowance that was paid after that date. There is no reason why this date was picked. It was an arbitrary date. I would suggest that this injustice should be remedied.

It has come to my notice that in relation to deductions of income tax from NCO's and men some system should be devised whereby they could get advice without having to pay professional fees. A system should also be devised whereby their deductions would be made over the entire year and not in a lump sum in one part of the year.

Minister for Defence (Mr. Cronin)

I am grateful to Members on all sides of the House for the interest they have taken in the Department of Defence and in the Defence Forces at all times. I appreciate the comments and observations of the different speakers this morning. In the main they were constructive. I was rather surprised that Deputy Clinton should complain about the lack of information given to the House and to Deputies about military activities. I should like to put on record that at all times I have given every facility to Deputies on all sides of the House for visits to military installations, to the Naval Service, military posts and so on. I do not think any Deputy can complain about the facilities and co-operation I have afforded them in my capacity as Minister.

Mr. Clinton

Not in that regard.

Mr. Cronin

As Minister for Defence, my policy is to get on with the job rather than to engage in supplying intimate information on military matters and matters that would endanger national security. What I mean by getting on with the job is building up our military force and improving equipment. This has been done successfully over recent months. A total of 1,100 men enlisted since 1st January and I am happy to say that recruitment is proceeding satisfactorily.

The next important thing is the provision of equipment. All Deputies agree that this is vitally necessary. We are losing no time in making the necessary purchases for the Armed Forces. I want to announce at this point, lest I be accused afterwards of concealing something or not informing the House, that I hope to have numbers of certain types of armoured vehicles, manufactured in this country. At present I am exploring that possibility and I have very good hopes of success.

Generally speaking in relation to Army morale my intention is to make military life still more attractive. Deputy Davern suggested that the military should integrate more with the community at large. This is an excellent suggestion and one which I hope to develop in the months ahead. The military men with their skills, especially on the sporting and physical side, have much to contribute. Their skills should not be wasted. They should co-operate especially with youth clubs and the like in the promotion of healthy and useful exercise, the type of exercise that will absorb the energy of young people in a healthy way rather than in undesirable or anti-social ways. I have this plan in mind. It will add further to interest in the Defence Forces. I also propose to develop sporting activities generally within the forces.

In connection with another matter relating to military morale, I want to inform the House that new uniforms are on the way. We hope to have them in a matter of months. All these things should create increased interest in the attractiveness of military life. We have a talented, well disciplined force. I am sorry that Deputy Clinton mentioned the Monaghan incident in this debate. I think he mentioned the matter without being in possession of the full facts.

Mr. Clinton

I was trying to elicit the facts.

Mr. Cronin

The Deputy suggested that the military were not in possession of riot control equipment. This is not in accordance with the facts. Before I make any further comment I want to have the incident fully examined. On that occasion the military behaved with highly commendable restraint. They suffered hardship. Nevertheless, it was the type of situation that could easily have escalated into a major incident. The discipline of the military was very much in evidence. We are examining the details and I hope to make a statement on the matter at a later stage. Contrary to what was indicated in some Press reports, the crowd numbered about 1,500 and the troops eventually numbered about 100. It was a formidable task and, so far as my information goes, the troops behaved in a highly commendable way.

A number of points were raised but with the limited time available to me, all I can say is that every point raised will be noted. I am sure Deputies appreciate that at all times useful suggestions made from any side of the House have been considered and, if deemed feasible and practical, they have been implemented.

Deputy Clinton raised the question of military accommodation. Accommodation improvement is a continuing process. A certain amount is done every year within the financial resources available. This will continue to have a high priority in military developments. Deputy Cosgrave and Deputy Clinton said that the regulations should be amended to permit the enlistment of married men. Regulations were recently amended to permit the enlistment of married members of the FCA with certain satisfactory service and within a certain age limit. Deputy Cooney is also interested in the enlistment of married men. He recommended on previous occasions that the age limit for married FCA personnel with suitable qualifications should be extended beyond 28 years. I am looking into this matter and a final decision has not yet been taken. Married men with previous Army service who are eligible for enlistment are accepted subject to certain qualifications. The age limit is 38 years.

Deputy Coughlan was concerned about the rejection of certain applicants for enlistment. The House will appreciate that the qualifications and suitability of each candidate must be fully examined. If there is a reason for rejecting a candidate nothing can be done about it. It is not possible in all cases or, in fact, in any case to indicate the reasons for such rejection. I will ask the House to accept that it is in the best interests of the Force generally. In the main, I think these were the points to which I was expected to reply and, to conform with the agreement reached by the Whips, I do not propose to say any more.

Vote put and agreed to.