asked the Minister for Education the number of schools closed due to amalgamation in the five counties of Connacht up to 31st March, 1972.
12.
Ceisteanna—Questions. Oral Answers. - School Closures.
11.
andMr. Fox asked the Minister for Education the number of schools closed due to amalgamation in Counties Donegal, Cavan and Monaghan up to 31st March, 1972.
13.
asked the Minister for Education the number of schools closed due to amalgamation in the six counties of Munster up to 31st March, 1972.
14.
asked the Minister for Education the number of schools closed due to amalgamation in the twelve counties of Leinster up to 31st March, 1972.
With your permission, a Cheann Comhairle, I propose to take Questions Nos. 11, 12, 13 and 14 together.
The following is the information requested by the Deputies:—
|
Connacht |
210 |
|
Donegal, Cavan, Monaghan |
215 |
|
Munster |
319 |
|
Leinster |
261 |
How did it happen that the whole province of Connacht has had 210 schools closed, whereas the three small counties—relatively speaking—of Donegal, Cavan and Monaghan have had 215 closed? Is there some animus against the province of Ulster?
It has been explained in the House on numerous occasions but, perhaps, the Deputy either did not hear it or did not believe it. If the Deputy wants to ask a question would he listen to the reply?
I can hear as much as the Minister.
(Interruptions.)
Would the Deputy listen to the reply?
I am not going to listen to that kind of stuff.
I am going to say it whether the Deputy likes it or not. The Deputy did not even listen and he does not know what I am going to say.
I am going to insist that there is a quorum present in this House for the remainder of the budget debate. Let the Minister swallow that.
The Deputy does not even know what I am going to say but I am going to say it anyway. It has been explained on numerous occasions that the closing of schools is related to the particular circumstances of the school. Certain factors such as whether the school is due to be replaced, whether an increase in the size of the school is necessary, whether a head teacher is about to retire and various other factors come into it. Therefore, one cannot say that there is any real correspondence between figures for particular areas and other areas. It depends on the factors in each case. I repeat that this has been said on numerous occasions. I do not know if Deputy O'Donovan heard it or if he heard it, whether he believed it. I repeat it has been said on many occasions.
I do not believe anything any Minister says.
Then I was right.
Could a slightly more credulous Deputy ask the Minister does he not agree that some of the factors he mentioned, such as head teachers retiring, are ones which would be evened out over a number as big as 200 and could not statistically explain a divergence of the kind indicated, that there are more schools closed in these three counties than in the whole province of Connacht and almost as many as in the whole province of Leinster? Could he give some indication of what are the regional factors that led to this rather unusual distribution?
An indication of the progressive thinking of Donegal County Council.
Question No. 13 by Deputy G. Lynch relates to the number of schools closed by amalgamation in the six counties of Munster. I wonder would all this confusion be because somebody thinks there are nine counties in Munster?
The figures I gave related to Munster as it actually exists. In answer to Deputy FitzGerald, he referred to one of the factors I mentioned. I mentioned others and I said there were others besides the ones I had mentioned. I cannot say offhand what the total number of national schools in the county is but speaking from recollection I would think that a figure of 200 was not statistically very significant.
Is it not a fact that the population of the province of Connacht is about 500,000 and the population of the three Ulster counties here included is about 200,000? The Minister may talk a lot of "gobbledegook" if he wants to but I do not believe what he has said.
Would the Minister say what he means by "not very significant" in the context of my question?
I meant it in the sense that I presume Deputy FitzGerald used the phrase.
I do not think the Minister did. I think what he has in mind is that this is a small proportion of the total number. My point is that the number is itself big enough for these little quirks to get ironed out and some more fundamental regional factor must be at work to account for this disparity.
There are many factors involved in any particular case. I know from my experience as a former Minister for Education that some of the schools that were due to be replaced had been built well over 100 years ago. It may have been that because of factors which operated 100 years ago there was a particular preponderance of schools built in a particular section of the country at one time. It may be, I say. I cannot say this positively.
It is an interesting speculation but the Minister's reply is: "I do not know". It would have been shorter.
If the Deputy wanted to put that question, which would require a great deal of research, I would have expected him to put it down. If he expects me to know this off the top of my head he is expecting more from me than he would produce himself.
Question No. 15.
I would expect the Minister's background material to contain an explanation of something so apparently odd on the surface.
It is not odd on the surface at all.