Dáil Éireann debate -
Wednesday, 5 Jul 1972

Vol. 262 No. 5

Committee on Finance. - Unit Trusts Bill, 1970: Report and Final Stages.

Minister for Industry and Commerce (Mr. Lalor)

I move amendment No.1:

In page 8, lines 16 and 17, after "participation in which" to insert ", in respect of units first issued after the commencement of this section,".

During the Committee Stage discussion an approach was made to me by one of our insurance companies, Irish Life, who had taken over a trust, the Shamrock Trust. They pointed out that participation in trusts of that nature can only be obtained now by effecting a life assurance policy. When the company was taking over the unit trust originally it was open to non-policy holders and, as a result, the scheme they now operate includes some unit holders who have not got an assurance policy. Arising from the doubt, as they saw it, as to whether the scheme qualified under section 6 (4), as amended on Committee Stage, for exclusion from the scope of the Bill, it was considered advisable to amend the section to leave the matter beyond any doubt. This is why I am suggesting the insertion of the words "in respect of units first issued after the commencement of this section". My understanding at the time was that that was acceptable to the spokesman on behalf of the leading Opposition party.

Mr. P. Barry

Are any other existing unit trusts in the same position?

Mr. Lalor

This is the only one on which representations have been made to me and I am not aware of any other that needs to be covered in this way.

Mr. P. Barry

If they do exist they are covered?

Mr. Lalor

Yes.

Amendment agreed to.

Mr. P. Barry

I move amendment No. 2:

In page 8, after line 48, to insert the following paragraph:—

(e) In considering the granting of an exemption, the Minister shall have regard to the general content of the publication exempted, with particular reference to papers dealing mainly in financial matters.

I understand that the Minister is in some agreement with this amendment. There was discussion on this in the Seanad and in the Dáil on Committee Stage. Most people were aware of the danger of what are sometimes referred to as quality papers, papers of high quality content, ceasing to circulate here if the section were enforced as drafted. I would ask the Minister to accept the amendment in Deputy Donegan's name. I think the Minister indicated on Committee Stage that he would be willing to go some of the way towards meeting Deputy Donegan on this.

Mr. Lalor

I saw the Deputy's point of view and I endeavoured to convey at Committee Stage that it was my intention under subsection (2) (a) of this section to cover the ground that Deputy Donegan was anxious to have covered. Deputy Donegan asked me to have regard to the views expressed by him. I indicated that subsection (2) (a) allowed the Minister to meet the requirements that he was anxious to build in by the insertion of this amendment. The amendment seeks to insert that in considering the granting of exemption the Minister shall have regard to the general content of the publication exempted, with particular reference to papers dealing mainly in financial matters.

I had explained to the House, previously to the Seanad, that the purpose of subsection (2) (a) was to enable me to make provision arising from applications made to me by publishers of these papers to exempt them if it transpired that the cost of producing a special edition of that paper or periodical for this country meant that they could not have the paper circulated here, with the result that business or other interests might be deprived of the benefit of the paper. The amendment mentions papers dealing mainly in financial matters. This widens the scope of the amendment. The Deputy said that he was particularly anxious about the Financial Times. The Financial Times contains a literary section, a news section and it could possibly be argued that it does not deal mainly with financial matters. I could find myself precluded from giving favourable consideration to an application from the Financial Times, which has reasonably limited circulation here which could justify an application for exemption.

One of the problems I am faced with here is that in my efforts to retain investors' money within the country, I do not want to find myself, as Minister for Industry and Commerce, being accused of acting as censor by specific reference to the purpose for which I want power, to prevent general circulation of the general run of papers trying to attract investors' money here into unit trusts elsewhere. The situation at the present time is that Irish advertising of unit trusts in the UK is not allowed. Our daily newspapers circulating in the United Kingdom are not allowed to advertise investments here. I do not think there is anything specifically wrong. Deputy Donegan, on Committee Stage, indicated that he would put down this amendment for Report Stage but that if I could give him an assurance that I had seen his point of view and was willing to take due regard of it in the consideration of applications under section 8 (2) (a) this would meet his requirements. This is what I undertook to do at that time. I had an amendment which held up the passage of the Final Stage of the Bill on that day and, as a result, Deputy Donegan's amendment and my own amendment have appeared today. I am satisfied that what Deputy Donegan intended to achieve by the amendment can be achieved under section 8 (2) (a).

Mr. P. Barry

The Minister can now give an assurance under section 8 (2) (a)?

Mr. Lalor

Yes.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

Bill, as amended, received for Final Consideration and passed.

An Ceann Comhairle

Seanad Éireann will be notified accordingly.