asked the Minister for Justice if he will state the system whereby cautions are administered by the Garda juvenile liaison officers; and the number of such cautions issued in 1971.
108.
Ceisteanna—Questions. Oral Answers. - Juvenile Caution System.
107.
asked the Minister for Justice if he will state in the context of the administration of justice and crime prevention among youth the purpose of the system of caution administered by Garda juvenile liaison officers.
With your permission, a Cheann Comhairle, I propose to take Questions Nos. 107 and 108 together.
The annual reports of the Commissioner of the Garda Síochána on crime set out, in a section dealing with juvenile crime, the principles under which the juvenile liaison officer scheme operates and give a detailed account of how it operates, including the categories of persons and the kind of offences to which it relates, the number of persons who have been dealt with under it, the towns where it is in operation and the number of gardaí involved. Copies of the reports are available in the library. In the 1970 report, the details are on pages 4 and 5 of the section dealing with crime prevention activity.
The purpose of the scheme has been explained to the House on several occasions since its inception in 1963. I would refer the Deputy to the speeches of the Minister for Justice when introducing the Estimates for his Department for the years 1963-64 and 1964-65 and, in particular, to the answer given on 19th June, 1963, to a Parliamentary question on the subject, Official Report, Volume 203, column 1222.
The commissioner's report for the year ended 30th December, 1971, has not yet been published but I am informed that the number of cautions administered under the scheme during that year was 700.
May I ask the Minister if, under the record system, he sharply distinguishes between convictions and cautions? He may be aware of the views I expressed last week as regards records which had been forwarded to some Government Departments detailing cautions where particular offenders had only been cautioned and cautioned once under the juvenile liaison scheme. Would the Minister give sympathetic consideration to asking whether the distinction is made in the conveying of criminal records of persons under 17 years of age who have not suffered any convictions but may be refused a job by a Government Department on the grounds that they had been cautioned once during their lifetime under the age of 16?
That is a separate question, and, in fact, I dealt with it last week.
But, unfortunately, I was not able to be here.
Part of the principle of this scheme is that the person concerned must admit the offence. If there was any question of his disputing his guilt or anything of that kind the scheme would not operate and he would go to court. Therefore, an offence has, in fact, been committed by the person. I could not say offhand whether it is recorded in the same way as ordinary criminal convictions. I rather doubt that it is recorded as a full conviction.
Could I press the Minister to ensure that where a youth under 17 admits an offence and the superintendent gives him a caution and the caution is recorded and it is not an actual conviction——
That is a separate question.
It is very serious.
The answer would be that if the superintendent is asked to provide a list of the convictions of the person concerned, I think he would not include a caution under this scheme, but if he is asked for a more general reference—and that is the usual type of request—he may well consider this relevant to the question of the person's general character.
It is a very alarming state of affairs if a man applies for a job, say, as a postman.