I raise this matter because I regard it as a very serious matter of principle, as chairman of Louth County Council, and a most serious matter for the ratepayers whom I have the honour to represent and whose interests I have a duty to safeguard. I am aware that the subject matter of this question has been by decision referred to counsel for opinion. I do not regard it as sub judice and I do not think it could, legally or in any normal man's way for looking at it, be regarded as such but I would preface what remarks I want to make now by making it quite clear that what the Minister said today was quite right, that Louth County Council have referred this as a very serious matter for opinion by learned counsel.
I wish to deal with the reply to the question, which asked the Minister for Health:
if, in view of the fact that at a conference in his Department on 27th October, 1969, it was indicated that there was no reason why Louth County Council could not dispose of the surplus farm land at Saint Brigid's Hospital, Ardee, County Louth, he will indicate why a different line of action has been taken.
I refer the House to the first sentence of the Minister's reply in which he said that "it was not indicated at the conference referred to that Louth County Council could dispose of surplus land at this hospital".
On 27th October, 1969, a conference was held between representatives of the Meath, Cavan, Monaghan and Louth County Councils and the Minister and his officials. An official who spoke on that occasion in the Minister's presence had drafted a plan for the health service we now seek to implement. Paragraph 13 of the minutes of that meeting is entitled "Transfer of Assets to Health Boards". The Minute states:
Deputy Donegan (Louth) raised the question of the transfer of assets from health authorities to the health board. He inquired particularly regarding property which was not absolutely for health purposes and instanced the position where a farm attached to a mental hospital was not regarded as essential to the continued functioning of the hospital. Dr. Hensey explained the position in section 35 (1) (a) of the Health Bill whereby property solely for the purposes of the health services would be conserved for the Health Board. In the case of property not within this definition, it would be a matter for the health authority concerned to decide under section 35 (1) (b) before the transfer took place to the health board whether or not it should be transferred.
The next sentence is highly important:
In reply to another query by Deputy Donegan, Dr. Hensey said that the health boards would take over responsibility for the payment of loan charges outstanding in respect of loans raised for the provision of health service facilities.
I refer now to the third sentence of the Minister's reply. The Minister realises that I appreciate he is a courteous man and that I mean no discourtesy to him in trying to demolish his answer. His third sentence was:
This meant that the county council could retain surplus land, but the question of the financial implications of this did not arise at the conference.
I would refer the House again to the last sentence in the minute of the conference:
In reply to another query by Deputy Donegan, Dr. Hensey said that the health boards would take over responsibility for the payment of loan charges outstanding in respect of loans raised for the provision of health service facilities.
Therefore, I take it that the third sentence of the Minister's reply is incorrect. Quite clearly, Dr. Hensey involved the Minister on that occasion in the financial implications of the payment of loan charges. I then go on to the question and answer in the final paragraph of the Minister's reply to a question by Deputy Tully on 11th June, 1970. Deputy Tully had asked if the Minister would state in relation to section 36 (1) (b) of the Health Act, 1970, and in respect of each health authority which had sought ministerial approval to terms for disposal of surplus land, (a) the area of land vested in or owned by each authority, and (b) the area of such land situated within the area of each rating authority concerned on 31st December, 1969. Deputy Tully also asked the Minister to give an estimate of the value of such land, the value per acre and the area or areas designated to be transferred on the commencement of section 6 of the Act. I shall give from the Minister's reply the list of health authorities. According to that reply the Dublin Health Authority had land, so had Donegal County Council, the Longford-Meath-Westmeath Mental Hospital Board, the Leitrim-Sligo Mental Hospital Board and the Galway-Roscommon Hospital Board. That referred to 11th June, 1970. Those lands were the subject of correspondence and requests to the Minister.
At that stage, the position in Louth had been completely cleared because on 27th October, 1969, the only local authority that were really doing their homework were the local authority in County Louth. A county manager's order No. G. 35/71, signed on 9th March, 1971 by Mr. Patrick Lavin, deputy county manager, stated:
In pursuance of resolution adopted by the Louth County Council at meeting held on 15th February, 1971, and in accordance with the provisions of section 74 of the Local Government (Planning and Development) Act, 1963, it is hereby ordered that the consent of the Minister for Health be sought to the appropriation of approximately 220 acres of land at St. Brigid's Hospital Ardee, for the purposes of the Council's functions as a planning authority.
The reply of the Minister to Deputy Tully on 11th June, 1970, related to other land. We did not go into that land; we dealt with our own land in the proper legal manner.
I now refer the House to the question of whether land not solely for the purpose of health services should be transferred. I refer to the second sentence of the Minister's reply:
What was said was that the council need not transfer to the health board property which was not solely for the purposes of health services.
On 21st June, 1972, the county secretary for Louth, Mr. Patrick Lavin, addressed a letter to each member of the Louth County Council and I shall quote the first part of that letter:
A Chara,
I am directed by the County Manager to forward for your information the attached copy of letter from the Department of Health to the Chief Executive Officer, North Eastern Health Board, dealing with the question of the transfer of surplus lands at St. Brigid's Hospital, Ardee.
In connection with this letter, the County Manager has asked me to draw attention to the following points—
1. It is the view of the Resident Medical Superintendent that only 80 acres are required solely for health purposes.
Now I wish to draw the attention of the House to a certain situation which is unlike any other situation in Ireland. The predecessor to Dr. O'Connor, who was the predecessor to the present RMS, Dr. Jim Wilson, was Dr. Patrick Moran. Older members of this House will remember him as the first joint president of Macra na Feirme. At a time when custodial medicine in the psychiatric field was perhaps more prominent than it should have been, Dr. Moran approached things in a different light. He brought patients who could be rehabilitated by going out and doing some work and enjoying themselves in the process, on to the farm. I will be dealing with this later. With the backing of Louth County Council, farms were bought far in excess of the need for such treatment of patients at a time when modern drugs were not available as they are now.
As things progressed, and after Dr. Moran had resigned, modern drugs such as tranquillisers became available in psychiatric medicine and the matter of having patients working on farms did not arise to the same degree as earlier.
Dr. O'Connor took up appointment and set up clinics in the various towns. This resulted in many patients being discharged from hospital. Consequently, there was no need for this large amount of land which the Louth County Council wished to keep and which was paid for by the Louth ratepayers.
The second sentence of the Minister's reply says that what was said was that the council need not transfer to the health board property that was solely for the purpose of the health services. This other land is not necessary for the health services. I have quoted already from the report of Dr. Wilson in which he says he does not require the land. There is no precedent in so far as this case is concerned because there is no other parcel of land surrounded by the same circumstances. We acted in time before the health boards took over.
I have here also, a letter, reference L 192 of the 11th July, 1972. This was sent from the Department of Health to the secretary of Louth County Council. It is stated in this letter that it would not be feasible for the Minister to make an exception in the case of one authority and that he regrets, therefore, that there would be no point in his receiving a deputation to discuss the position at Ardee. So far as we are concerned we have acted properly and legally. In another letter from the Department dated 29 March, 1971, it is stated:
The Minister will raise no objection in principle to the proposal to appropriate approximately 220 acres of Mental Hospital land. In the event however, of a credit not being made to the Mental Hospital account equivalent to the value of the property as may be approved by the Minister following consultation with the Commissioner of Valuation, the matter will be taken into account in the context of Section 32 of the Health Act, 1970, —vide reply to Parliamentary Question of 11th June, 1970, copy attached.
Have I not proved conclusively that the reply given to Deputy Tully's question is entirely irrelevant in so far as this parcel of land is concerned? There is no question of the land being required for modern psychiatric medicine. If in the past the then resident medical superintendent, Dr. Paddy Moran, approached Louth County Council, who were the health authority, and requested that more land be provided for his patients that was in order but we made our inquiries and we got our answers. As chairman of the county council it is my duty to endeavour to put this land back into the hands of the ratepayers. Each ratepayer in County Louth is entitled to receive whatever alleviations or improvements in services that it may be possible to give.
I am now 49 years old and I represent the third generation of my family in local politics in County Louth. My grandfather was chairman of the Board of Guardians, my father was a member of Louth County Council and I took over from him, but before ever going into politics I remember discussion of the question as to whether this land should be purchased, as to whether it was proper to put this charge on the ratepayers of County Louth. On many occasions I heard my father discuss the matter not only with members of his own party but with Deputy Larry Walsh and others of the Fianna Fáil Party as well as with members of the Labour Party.
From the day that Dr. O'Connor took over from Dr. Moran there has never been any question of these lands being required in so far as psychiatric medicine is concerned. In the few minutes left to me, I shall indicate what these lands were used for. The day when patients worked on the land and had their lunch in a cottage on the land has gone for the past 15 years. We might ask if the buildings on the lands have any relevance in so far as matters of health are concerned, or so far as profit or advantage to the ratepayers are concerned. To find the answer I shall quote from a letter dated 1st June, 1971. It was sent from Mr. W. Whately of St. Brigid's Hospital, Ardee, to the secretary of Louth County Council:
Dear Sir,
The following is a list of the buildings on the lands being appropriated by the County Council:—
Hale Street— Land steward's house; slaughter house and pig sheds; pig shed for young pigs; farrowing shed; pig shed and loft— old land steward's house; shed for bull; corn store, grain drier, hammer mill and loft; calf stalls— shed for three; cattle shed for 35 cattle; open front cattle shed; piggery; cottage used as diningroom for patients.
Curraghbeg—Open cattle shelter; dining-hall for patients; Nissen hut potato store; two potato sheds; machinery shed; poultry house; roofed silo pit; milking parlour; Nissen hut—cattle shed; three Nissen huts—baled straw; shed with two calf stalls; shed with three calf stalls.
Can those buildings be related to health? Have I not succeeded in demolishing the line taken by the Minister for Health? Can anybody say now that the ratepayers of County Louth are not entitled to this land?
