Dáil Éireann debate -
Wednesday, 15 Nov 1972

Vol. 263 No. 9

Committee on Finance. - Vote 42: Posts and Telegraphs (Resumed).

Debate resumed on the following motion:

That the Vote be referred back for reconsideration.

—(Deputy R. Burke.)

Mr. Moore

When I reported progress I was speaking about the structure of the local post offices and what could be done to brighten their image. In many rural and urban areas, the post office is the focal centre for the disbursement of many of our social services. Therefore, many of our old people use the post office to draw their pensions or to get information. Too many small post offices have few amenities for old people. While the Minister may not have direct control of them, since some of them are shops as well as post offices, I would suggest that he should use his influence with the holders of these post offices to get them to make them more attractive for the old people who go in there to draw their pensions. They could be brightened by the use of some paint and paper, and a few seats should be provided for the older people so that they would not have to stand in a queue for any length of time while awaiting their turn.

I also mentioned earlier that a sorting office in my own area, in Ballsbridge, badly needs replacement. I know the plans are almost finalised but I would ask the Minister to give the necessary push to have this 19th century building replaced by a modern one. After all, employees must work there for many hours each day.

I have listened to most of the discussion on the EEC Bill and I am wondering, in this context, if RTE should not have a more international approach. It is true that by comparison with some of the European broadcasting giants RTE are very small. However, they now have a great opportunity to project Irish culture and Irish social life into the new European scene. I am thinking on the lines of expanding the Eurovision contest.

Speaking of RTE I should like particularly to pay a tribute to their political commentators, two of whom we know especially in this House. They behave in a most responsible way in bringing to the Irish public the events that occur here. We must give them the highest credit for their standards of professionalism and responsibility in their contributions to RTE's news bulletins, particularly in these days when biased reporting might inflame an already dangerous situation. Of course RTE reporters must travel to the North—they have been doing so during the past four years—and consequently their jobs are much more onerous. Therefore, as I have said, great credit is due to them.

RTE also have a role in the education sphere. I wonder if in this context they should not devote more time to the university level. I am thinking on the lines of a university of the air. I wonder if RTE have examined this question vis-à-vis other stations.

I suggest that more time and money should be devoted to a project of this kind, particularly in this country where we must accept that thousands of our people, because they live in remote areas as distinct from any means disability, cannot go to universities. Then, of course, people who are physically disabled would benefit as well. That is why I suggest that in this country particularly the national broadcasting service should cater more for university programmes.

All of us can commend the authority for Telefís Scoile, but Telefís Scoile caters entirely for secondary schools. I have suggested that the authority might consider programmes at university level but I should like also to see serious thought given to providing programmes for primary schools, even if it were only for one or two hours per week. There are numerous film services available and we hear now and again that canned programmes are cheaper than live ones. At the moment the curriculum for primary schools is very heavy, so a television programme for primary schools might, incidentally, take a lot of weight from overworked teachers in those schools.

I know the cost of implementing my suggestion would be great but there is a duty on RTE, as a national service, not alone to provide entertainment but to cater for the educational needs of the community.

I agree with what other speakers have said in regard to the authority's attitude to Irish language programmes. Mainly on such programmes there are panels of people who are fluent in the language—fluency seems to be the test for inclusion in such panels. I think that it would provide more encouragement to the people who are anxious and willing to learn the language if people other than those whom I would call the élite from the point of view of Irish, were given a chance. I think it is wrong to reserve a place in our national broadcasting system to this small section of the Irish speaking community. At the moment, because of the academic content of Irish programmes, viewers who are not so well versed in the language but who are trying to improve switch off. RTE should do more to try to encourage people who are seriously interested in the language. For an English language programme they do not always bring on people who have perfect English so why should they debar people from taking part in Irish speaking programmes because they are not fluent? RTE can play a much bigger part in the educational field, particularly in the matter of programmes in Irish, if they bring on men and women from non-Gaeltacht areas or those who have had to learn Irish in their spare time. There will be no extra cost involved. It is well worth trying and RTE should be urged to adopt the policy of bringing on people who, if it gets too difficult, will break into English but who will be trying all the time not to do that. This will encourage the home viewer to speak Irish.

I am disappointed by the religious programmes on RTE. The big mistake is often made that there is a half-hour programme on some very serious theological aspect. People are brought on who know their subject but it should be remembered that many of the viewers are not theologians but people of simple faith. This does not mean that they are of weak faith. Looking at those programmes I can say for myself that at times I am confused. The fault may not lie with the people who appear on these programmes; it may lie in the fact that they are given such a short time to expand on their viewpoint. The interviewer uses some of the time so the actual time available to the man or woman who is the main speaker is very short indeed. Nine times out of ten the interviewer has to say: "I am sorry, we have no more time for that." We are very often left with very important questions hanging in mid-air. We do not know what the speaker would have said had he been given an hour. While we try to attune ourselves to changes in these days of change I think it is asking far too much to expect that in a half-hour programme questions of faith and morals or perhaps some dogma, should be discussed. The person at home has not, perhaps, been able to give his full attention to the programme because of distractions but even if he has, after some programmes he is confused by the utterances of the speaker. That may not be the fault of the speaker. He or she, knowing the subject so well, may assume that we all know it equally well, but whoever organises the programme might try not to talk down to the people but to speak in language that we understand.

The "Outlook" programme is short and the speaker generally has a nice little pithy talk to which one likes to listen. The vast majority of speakers on "Outlook" are good. One can see the results of the training these men have got. It has made them much better speakers on television. I am sure that programme has a large audience. It is a very simple little programme but some of the other religious programmes are above some of our heads at least. The language should either be simplified or the people taking part in them should be given more time to explain their views. It is very necessary today, when attacks come from many sides on things which people hold dear, that these programmes should attune themselves to the thinking not of the intellectual members of our society but to the thinking of members of our society who want to learn and may not have the intellectual capacity to follow the sometimes pedantic utterances on these programmes. The RTE Authority do their best. Some brilliant people have appeared on these programmes but it may well be that they are not speaking to the people who want to hear and to follow each argument on religious matters. I have at times been confused.

One could fault the RTE Authority for many of their productions. Each year I mention some of the programmes which give offence. As RTE mature I hope this will not continue and that we will see a greater degree of maturity on all programmes. I should like to say, by way of criticism, that on some programmes they are inclined to bring on people not because they have got a message or are particularly good at their subject but because of the very fact that they are "way out," different to the majority. They are brought on to say things which may shock people. The great majority of our people are sometimes shocked and hurt. Parents complain that if their children are looking at a programme which may be harmless and, indeed, may be a good programme for adults, something may happen in it which will hurt the parents who are thinking of their children. It may not be meant to be in bad taste but it can be in bad taste. The RTE Authority and the producers should keep in mind the fact that all the people are not intellectuals. We are not all experts on drama or culture of any kind. Programmes must be geared to educate the people but the mass of the people do not want the kind of avant garde philosophy of some of the programmes.

The film about TV spongers shown on RTE is a bit offensive. You see an inspector going to a person's door and when the woman opens it she is asked if she has got a licence. I usually feel sympathy for that person when she says she has not got a licence. She may not have the money to pay the licence fee. I know those people may be actors but I always feel pity for them. Some other way should be found to ensure that licences are paid. Somebody should examine this matter and, perhaps, find a better solution than showing a film about TV spongers.

When one buys a motor car one has to tax and insure it. Perhaps we could adopt the same procedure in relation to TV licences. When a person owns a motor car a garda can see the tax disc on the windscreen. When a person buys a television set it could be registered and every year a reminder could be sent out that a new licence was necessary. Commercial concerns have to deal with bad debt problems but they cannot spend large sums of money trying to recover them. They may appoint special people to do this work or send out solicitor's letters.

We must remember that the great majority of people pay their television licences every year and, perhaps, those who do not pay have not got the money for the licences. If we must have some scheme to encourage people to pay their licences we should try to do it in better taste than the TV spongers film. I do not know how much money RTE loses on account of the people who do not pay their licences. The Department should be able to think up some satisfactory scheme to ensure that licences are paid. The people who pay their licences should not have to watch a film in relation to TV spongers.

The Department of Posts and Telegraphs give a good return to the public. The Post Office affects the lives of everybody in the country in some way. I hope the Minister will look at the whole structure of his Department and try to shed some of the responsibilities he is carrying at the moment. I suggest that the Post Office could be run as a semi-State concern like Aer Lingus or some of the other State-sponsored bodies. The Minister might take the savings section away from the Department and let that be run by another State-sponsored body.

Most speakers conclude their remarks on this Estimate by referring to the waiting list for telephones. When people want telephones they often approach Deputies and I must say on any occasion when I approached the Minister in this regard if it was possible something was done. It is one of the penalties of our growing affluence that there is such a demand for telephones. Ten years ago we had not half the number of telephones we have today and the number of applications is increasing. We will probably see the day when every house will have a telephone. That cannot be done overnight and there is bound to be a queue. The Department are doing their best to try to overcome the problem in this regard. I believe the priority in the Department in regard to the allocation of telephones is a fair one. If the Minister can increase the installation rate by, say, 10 per cent a year it would go a long way towards shortening the waiting list for telephones.

The Post Office is going through a difficult time but I believe it is doing a good job. I hope that next year the waiting list for telephones will have been reduced considerably. I also hope that some of the other matters I mentioned this evening will have been dealt with. I understand that Deputy Thornley, who is the Labour Party spokesman on Posts and Telegraphs is ill and I take this opportunity of wishing him well.

Mrs. Hogan O'Higgins

It is not often I find myself sympathising with Ministers in this House but whenever I speak on this Estimate I sympathise with the Minister because I think the Department of Posts and Telegraphs is far too unwieldly and has got completely out of hand. Like Deputy Moore, I feel that some sections should be taken away from the Department and put on their own.

When one thinks of the Department of Posts and Telegraphs one immediately thinks of the telephone system. Those of us who live in rural Ireland experience some difficulties with regard to the telephone system. The Minister must know that our telephone system in the west of Ireland is not very good. It is no good saying that there are long waiting lists for telephones in every country in Europe because that does not make it any easier for people who are waiting for telephones.

Connections to the west of Ireland are particularly bad. Earlier this year an American factory coming into my constituency was unable, through the normal channels, to get a connection. I had a frantic call from IDA sources in the west and from the people in the town. The Minister was very cooperative and the telephone was installed. I discussed this with the officials of the IDA and with business people coming into the west of Ireland. They say that undoubtedly our telephone service deters people from coming to the west to set up business. We should get some special concessions in the west. It is easy enough to get an industrialist to set up in Dublin or Cork but it is not so easy to get him to go west of the Shannon. If we had a better telephone and telex system they would be more inclined to come to the west.

There are relatively small aspects of the telephone service that puzzle me. For instance, in the towns of Loughrea, Athenry and Gort in my constituency there are automatic exchanges which appear to be complete but which have not yet been put into use. In reply to a parliamentary question earlier in the year the Minister told me that it would be about three years before they could go into operation. Judging from the extent to which the town of Loughrea is growing, by the time the automatic exchange is put into operation it will not be adequate to handle the volume of work that will be required of it. The buildings are there and cables have been laid but, perhaps, there is some reason for the hold up. Each of these towns has a growing population and those of us who use the telephone service frequently find it progressively frustrating when there are delays in answering at the exchange. If one seeks an explanation from a supervisor the excuse is usually that the line had been very busy. Recently while in the house of a friend in my constituency I tried to make a phone call and when I did not succeed in getting a reply from the exchange my friend suggested that I use the method of ringing that is used by a certain priest. That worked so it would seem that there is some secret method of getting instant service.

Of course, we are aware that the exchanges are overworked in a number of country areas. Loughrea is one of those. On one occasion I found a night operator and myself to be using language which, to say the least, was not parliamentary but which in the circumstances was understandable. I regret to say that it was I who used such language in the first place but, were a foreigner to overhear us, it would not have given a very good impression. It is easy to criticise or for subscribers to be hurt when a sub-postmaster or postmistress is abrupt on a line but I am sure that if I were in their place I would be very cross too. Officials at local exchanges are expected to work long hours for which they are not well paid. I notice also that in some exchanges there is not yet an automatic buzzer so that it is still necessary to wind a handle in order to put through a call. Surely when an exchange is carrying any more than half a dozen telephones they should have the automatic facility.

On the whole, the telephone service provided in rural Ireland by postmasters and postmistresses is second to none. I have had occasion time and again to dash into post offices in various parts of my constituency and to ask a postmistress to make a call for me. They have always been willing to oblige although they need not do so. They are always ready also to oblige anyone who might wish to call a priest, a doctor or a veterinary surgeon by making the call.

The provision of public telephones seems to be a matter of growing concern in rural constituencies. People are asking that kiosks be provided in numerous parts of an area. I can understand the need for a kiosk after a post office has closed in the evening. In my area of Kilrickle we agitated for a kiosk and succeeded in being provided with one but because it is on the main Dublin-Galway road the connection is lost each time a truck passes so that we were better off when we used go to the post office to make our calls. Perhaps, therefore, it is not always best to provide a kiosk.

Each year the question of commemorative stamps is raised on this Estimate. We have reached the stage when we claim to be mature politically and we think we are sophisticated. We pat ourselves on the backs and say that the civil war is no longer a political issue, but yet when it comes to the question of honouring the founders of this State we do not do so in so far as commemorative stamps are concerned. This year marked the 50th anniversary of the death of Michael Collins but no stamp was issued in commemoration of the patriot. I cannot understand why this was not done.

Each year I have some complaint to make in respect of the telephone directory. Because of the growing number of subscribers it would be a good idea to produce the directory in two separate parts, one for the Dublin area and the other for the country area. This would result in the directory being easier to handle and less likely to fall apart. Also the print could then be somewhat larger so that those of us who are getting on in years would not have difficulty in distinguishing the nines from the noughts and vice versa.

Many of the post office buildings could be improved greatly in appearance by a little brightening up. In so far as the Post Office vans are concerned, I did not like the new marigold colour originally but I find it quite acceptable now. At any rate, post offices need not be as dingy as they are. The uniforms worn by postmen leave much to be desired but I suppose if they are comfortable and warm they are not too bad, although they could be much smarter.

On Sunday last I received a deputation in my constituency and I was amused when one person told me that his problem could be solved very easily, that all he wanted was a telephone. I had to tell him, however, that that was the only problem I could not deal with because there are about 22,000 other people awaiting telephone installations.

One person on that deputation had a complaint in regard to the Post Office and this concerned the increasing number of letters and postcards that seemed to go astray. This matter is coming to light in various ways. One of these is in respect of people who apply for the beef incentive bonus scheme. If a cow has not calved at the time an official calls on the farmer, a tiny card is left with him which he is to post when the cow has calved. Naturally farmers are meticulous in sending in these cards and small farmers in particular depend to a large extent on the income from the scheme. However a number of these cards never reach their destination. I do not know what is the explanation for this. I have made representations to the Department of Agriculture and Fisheries in respect of having some applications re-considered but they tell me invariably that the card did not reach them, but when I tell this to the applicant he is usually adamant that the card was posted. I never take a chance in so far as my own applications are concerned. I hand the cards in personally.

The Post Office have some very good small savings schemes in operation but these should be advertised more widely. They did have an advertisement on television but I do not know whether it is on now. This advertisement advised youngsters to save and this was very good because, while a young boy or girl may be a little reluctant to open a bank account, he or she will be in the habit of going to a post office for stamps, et cetera, and consequently, will not hesitate to open a savings account there if they so wish. This is an ideal way of encouraging saving and, of course, the return is excellent if the money is left in for a sufficient length of time.

In connection with this Estimate, one thinks automatically of RTE which body, in my opinion, should have a Ministry or at least a subDepartment of its own. In this respect I sympathise with the Minister in having to deal with that establishment.

Mr. Donnellan

Especially people like Frank Hall.

Mrs. Hogan O'Higgins

Is he there yet?

Mr. G. Collins

He is producing a wonderful programme.

Mrs. Hogan O'Higgins

Is it not the position that we are awaiting legislation for the financial structure of RTE?

Mr. G. Collins

We had the dealers registration Bill earlier in the year and there is a simple Bill being put before the House shortly which is necessary to enable us to pay over moneys to the authority that have been collected by way of licence fees.

Mrs. Hogan O'Higgins

But that is not good enough. If we wish RTE to be really efficient we must give them more money than the licence fees. Some people would argue that RTE are extravagant while others would say they do not receive sufficient moneys. It is a question of whether it has too much money for the return we are getting or whether it has not enough money to give us a proper service. Personally I think it should have more money to give us a better service.

Mr. G. Collins

The Deputy realises that the income from licence fees makes up only about half of the total income?

Mrs. Hogan O'Higgins

I do, and after that there is the revenue from advertisements and so on. I think the whole system of financing RTE is wrong. Television is a completely new medium to this country. It is the most powerful of all the media and one which will be increasingly influential. Therefore the maximum amount of money should be allocated, not to be thrown away but to be spent with the appropriate supervision in order to give us the best service possible.

Our newscasters are good. I remember arguing here a couple of years ago that there were too many news announcers and I was told they could not be done without. Now I notice they are done without and very efficiently done without. Although the newscasts are good I am not so impressed by "news at 10 o'clock". I preferred the other method of presentation. Again our newscasts are not as good as the BBC, particularly on our own problems. I switch from one to the other to get a particular story on the North and I find the BBC more impartial on the Northern Ireland situation. While I am in favour of freedom of speech, far too much platform is given to undersirable members of the public, sometimes on news programmes but certainly on current affairs programmes.

I have always felt that our canned programmes, as Deputy Moore says, are of a very low standard. I do not believe the Minister was born when some of them were made. They are so old and so antiquated that it is painful to look at them, and the unfortunate continuity announcer has to say: "We regret the poor quality of the sound in this film". We should not be insulted with this kind of thing.

Telefís Éireann should provide more music. I do not mean only traditional music; I think that makes bad television, strangely enough. We have two excellent orchestras that we very rarely hear. Young people are gone mad on this pop culture, which to me is only noise. Youngsters can be educated musically, and if there was much more light music there would be an increasing audience. I know it is expensive, but it is good entertainment and it is worth it. The only time we ever hear our orchestra is on sound radio, and only housewives or those who are ill or driving long distances listen to sound radio to any great extent.

School programmes are very good, but RTE fall down on the provision of programmes for the very young. We have nothing to compare with the programmes on the other stations which should not be mentioned here. I have seen piped television in the afternoon and the pre-school age programmes are very good. I do not see why we could not import some of them here if we cannot make them ourselves. Some people argue that television is not good for very young children. I am of two minds about this. I think it broadens the mind. Even for babies, the visual thing, stories about animals——

Mr. Davern

"Sesame Street".

Mrs. Hogan O'Higgins

Yes, even for two and three-year olds. My tots look at "Sesame Street". They know elephants from giraffes and so on. Surely this is educational and must be reasonably good for them. I know cowboy films and bang bang stuff cannot be too good for them, but nature study and fairy tales must be beneficial. Some Deputy was advocating here this evening that "Today in the Dáil" should be televised. That programme is all right in sound, but if we had to look at it in pictures it would be ghastly. The two reporters who are here in the House do a very good job in reporting the Dáil under very limited conditions. The studio upstairs is not very satisfactory, as we all know.

Mr. G. Collins

The Deputy realises that the provision of studio facilities in the House is a matter for the Ceann Comhairle and the Committee on Procedure and Privileges.

Mrs. Hogan O'Higgins

I am only saying they do their best in spite of the limited conditions.

Mr. G. Collins

I am sure the Ceann Comhairle will heed what is being said.

Mrs. Hogan O'Higgins

We established Radio na Gaeltachta. I have grave doubts about this service. I do not like to say this but I feel that here is the place to face facts. My constituency receives Radio na Gaeltachta very clearly. I have asked innumerable people, people who are well versed in the Irish language, if they listen to it. A number of them say they cannot find it on their transistors; neither can I, incidentally, but possibly I have not got the knack of finding it. We spent a lot of money on Radio na Gaeltachta. To my mind, we are all guilty in that we rushed into this. We gave them a deadline for opening, Easter Sunday.

Mr. G. Collins

No.

Mrs. Hogan O'Higgins

Then why was there this mad rush? I know they worked around the clock to be ready to open on Easter Sunday.

Mr. G. Collins

It was a self-imposed deadline by RTE.

Mrs. Hogan O'Higgins

I always felt it was a mistake. I do not know whether it is fair to mention anyone, but Pádraig Ó Raghallaigh was in charge down there and he did a superb job in getting the radio off the ground. It nearly killed him. I do not think we should ask this of any of our civil servants. Having got it off the ground he disappeared from there. However, I am very unhappy about the way in which Radio na Gaeltachta has worked out. This may not be a popular thing to say, but I think it is a nest of Sinn Féin. My Irish is not all that fluent but I have heard the programmes in other people's houses and I think it is very slanted. It is questionable whether the money was well spent. If the Minister looks over his shoulder he will get advice from his own party. A Fianna Fáil Member who lives in the west of Ireland said to me: "Would that we had got that money for drainage or for a water scheme somewhere."

It alarms me when the Minister states in his speech: "We are hoping to extend the hours of broadcasting still further." Should we not have a hard look at the whole set-up in Radio na Gaeltachta? There seems to be no editorial supervision. Everybody seems to be able to say and do what he likes, and this is wrong. I do not know what the TAM rating would be for this. I asked a teacher in one of the big schools in the Gaeltacht to find out from the children if they listened. He did not do a very comprehensive survey but, doing the best he could he found that a very small percentage of the children listened. A number of them did say their mothers or fathers turned it on and made them turn off other programmes. One wonders whether it is money well spent or whether it is another empty gesture like these gadgets around the seats here which are used very little, although Deputy Begley spoke in Irish today for a couple of minutes.

If the Minister wants seriously to go ahead with Radio na Gaeltachta, more time should be spent in trying to educate us in Irish. Radio na Gaeltachta could serve a useful purpose in schools in the west of Ireland. At the moment it is not serving any useful purpose. It is doing a disservice to the State. I will probably be criticised for saying this. People on television are sensitive to criticism. Politicians can be criticised from morning to night, but nothing critical must be said about the people in the ivory towers of radio and television. There is usually a grain of truth in criticism. I always listen to criticism because one can always learn.

Deputy Moore spoke at length about advertising, particularly in relation to drink. I understand that Deputy Moore, like myself, does not take a drink. Perhaps we are rather sensitive about people who drink. Drinking is practically a way of life in this country. Cigarette smoking is also very prevalent. We must point out the dangers of drinking. There is no use in withdrawing drink advertisements. People will not stop drinking. A good job was done on television in regard to cigarette smoking. The programmes about cigarette smoking were informative. Similar programmes could be shown in regard to the dangers of drinking to excess. The problem of alcoholism in this country is not new. I have come to the conclusion that in some cases it is hereditary. Advertisements issued by the Department of Health showing the dangers of excessive drinking might be useful. Withdrawing advertisements about alcohol will not serve any useful purpose. The breweries would save money, but the position in regard to drink would not be changed. Young people, in increasing numbers, drink. We have to educate them so that they can drink with minimum danger to themselves. I do not wish to be taken as saying that we must teach them to drink. We must educate them in regard to drink.

Television can provide a useful service with regard to drugs. Most youngsters look at television. A very useful purpose could be served by the Department of Health sponsoring programmes warning youngsters about the dangers of drug-taking and of experimenting with drugs.

Unlike Deputy Moore, I think that the TV spongers advertisement is good. It is in no way offensive and the actors have not got ghastly accents. It must remind some subscribers to pay their licence fees. In Connemara I have come across people who do not get satisfactory television reception. This also occurs in the hilly parts of County Clare. Sometimes they get a picture but no sound; on other occasions they get sound but no picture. Sometimes they receive Spanish television stations showing bull-fights. These people feel that they should not be asked to pay television licence fees. One must sympathise with them. If they cannot get proper television reception they should not have to pay for television licences. At a social gathering during the summer a well-known person entertained his guests by describing how a RTE team came to interview him and asked him whether he had a television licence. His wife said they had not, and one of them said that if he could get only RTE he would not have one either. This reflects badly on ourselves and RTE. I presume the authorities are lenient with people who are not getting proper reception and that the Minister would not prosecute people in such circumstances.

I would like to thank the Minister and the members of his staff who were so helpful to me during the year. I seem to have a growing number of telephone problems. The officials in the Department are always courteous and seem to have an explanation for everything. I pass on the information they give me, hoping that it will be accepted as adequate. The telephone problem is gigantic. We do not seem to have come to grips with it. Presumably the lists waiting for telephones will be as long next year as they are this year. Perhaps the Minister will be on this side of the House sometime and will be able to say to us "I told you so" when we speak about the difficulties involved.

Posting from this House is not reliable. I wrote to my small daughter who is at boarding school and posted a stamped letter to her from the House. She never got it. I sent a letter in a franked envelope and she did not get that either. I wrote from Rathfarnham and she got that letter. I presume my letters got lost between here and the GPO. Letters posted in the House on a Friday morning do not arrive in Rathfarnham until Monday morning or afternoon. On one occasion I left post on a table upstairs. It was sent out on Thursday but it had not arrived at its destination in Rathfarnham when I returned from Galway on Monday. Postage outside the Dáil is more satisfactory. One would imagine that the seat of Parliament should get efficient service, if not privileges. If we do not run our own affairs well, how can we run the affairs of State in a satisfactory manner?

Mr. Davern

I would like to thank the Minister and his staff for the courtesy and efficiency which I have received from them over the past year. Some of my problems have been solved, but a few still remain. The telex communication system is being used by an increasing number of firms in Ireland. This system has been the subject of much complaint. There are not sufficient lines in use. I do not fully understand its working, but I have complaints from industrialists that they are not getting satisfactory service from telex. The Department realise this and have been giving rebates to some of the telex subscribers. This is an admission that there is something wrong with the telex system and that it could be improved. If industry is to have a chance to compete in Europe, delays of this kind should be reduced to the minimum.

The main point I want to make is in regard to the Clonmel telephone exchange. Clonmel is the biggest inland town in Ireland and is one of the fastest developing towns. It has the most antiquated telephone exchange in the country. It is not only crank-handle; some of it is pigeon carrier stuff. The telephonists are more than helpful and very obliging. The conditions there cause annoyance and shortness of temper on the part of operators and subscribers. A number of big industries are going into the area. There is no automatic exchange there. I have heard complaints of delays of 1½ hours to get a call to Dublin. One could drive to Dublin in that time. It is not the fault of the supervisors; it is a matter of overloading. It can take 45 minutes to get a call from Cahir to Clonmel. I do not blame the telephone operators who are most helpful. If the Minister wants to help this town to expand and wants business to be efficient and if he wants to facilitate the hospitals and the county council he must give priority to Clonmel in regard to the telephone service. I trust the Minister will do that.

In regard to applications for telephones, rural areas should get a higher priority than city areas. A farmer may have to call a vet or a doctor in case of emergency and may have to travel two or three miles to the nearest telephone whereas in Dublin there is a telephone kiosk every 200 or 300 yards.

Mrs. Hogan O'Higgins

It would be out of order.

Mr. Davern

Doctors are not attracted to rural mountain areas. There should be telephone kiosks in all rural areas. Applications for kiosks have been rejected on the grounds that the number of subscribers would not justify the erection of a kiosk. I suggest that there should be an agreement with the local authority that they would subvent the kiosk. That has been adopted in one or two areas in Tipperary and in Carlow. It is a scheme whereby telephone kiosks could be provided in mountainous rural areas where they are needed. There may not be a doctor within eight or nine miles. A farmer may have to travel eight or nine miles for the vet. Priority should be given to rural areas in the provision of telephone kiosks.

There has been a complaint from people who supplied petrol to the Department of Posts and Telegraphs to the effect that only one company are now supplying. I am not sure of the nature of the complaint. Persons who had been supplying for years, who were getting only one penny profit per gallon, are now deprived of that business and the Department are dealing with one company. I have written about it and have transmitted complaints I have received.

I agree with Deputy Hogan O'Higgins about Telefís Éireann and the newspapers being sensitive to criticism. They think that we have necks like bulls but we are not supposed to criticise them. This was particularly noticeable in regard to the debate on the Forcible Entry Bill where the question of journalists arose.

Mr. Donnellan

Is it the cartoon that Mike Murphy did last week?

Mr. Davern

If that is called a home made programme, it could be made in any home in Ireland. The people in rural areas have no alternative to Telefís Éireann. The Minister's grandfather could have watched some of the films that are presented on Telefís Éireann. Judging by the programmes presented by Telefís Éireann, it is obvious that there is no competition.

Mr. L. Belton

It is not all that bad.

Mr. Davern

Deputy Belton lives in a Dublin constituency where he can receive BBC television.

Mr. L. Belton

I said that RTE is not all that bad. It may not be great. Give them a chance.

Mr. Davern

The "Sesame Street" programme that they present is an excellent programme for children and there are the education programmes.

Mr. L. Belton

What about "The Riordans"?

Mr. Davern

We will accept that. It is a very popular programme in rural areas. Some of the programmes seem designed to keep somebody in a job. Some of the home made music programmes are really terrible, utterly boring. Some of the canned programmes are obviously the cheapest available. It would appear that someone is trying to get rid of these films that are presented on Sunday nights. If Telefís Éireann retain them for a couple of years they will be a century old and will be recognised as antiques. The news service has improved. The current affairs programme has improved tremendously. I do not know whether there is a shortage of money or a shortage of talent but in my view it would be better not to present some of the programmes being presented. I should like once more to thank the Minister for his efforts and kindness and consideration during the year, which went beyond the call of duty. I am glad to hear the Minister is giving £½ million to up-date Clonmel Exchange and to get a speedy service there.

Mr. Donnellan

I wish the Minister would be half as generous to the west as he is to Clonmel.

Mr. G. Collins

There is nothing saying that I am giving anything to anyone.

Mr. Donnellan

Did I hear Deputy Davern say that the Minister was giving £½ million to improve the telephone service in Clonmel?

Mr. G. Collins

I did not hear him.

Mr. Donnellan

Did Deputy Davern mention that the Minister was giving £½ million to improve the telephone service in Clonmel?

Mrs. Hogan O'Higgins

He is deaf too.

Mr. Donnellan

The Minister is, no doubt, a fine man, in charge of this Department. I am not entirely satisfied with the way in which certain appointments are made in the Minister's Department. Employees of Government Departments are supposed to be divorced from politics. There is more political pull in getting people appointed to jobs in the Post Office than there is in any other part of the public service. Even the appointment of postmen is not entirely free of a political aura. Generally the appointment is made on representations from a Deputy. The Minister should really break away from this tradition. All it is is jobbery.

(Interruptions.)

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

Order.

Mr. Donnellan

Again, when a vacancy occurs in a post office, a regular battle is fought for the post office. Someone gets the post office on political pull and regardless of the qualifications of other applicants. This reflects no credit on the Minister or his Department and, if he changes the system, it will be a big improvement. Employees in these jobs cannot stand for any public office. I do not think that is altogether fair. Perhaps the Minister would look into it and allow them the same opportunities as other people have.

With regard to telephones, if one complains to the Minister about bad service he certainly examines the complaint and ensures that Members of this House get the best service possible. The general public are not, perhaps, quite so lucky. I spent an hour on a public telephone dialling 10. I admit this only happened on one occasion. The Minister will probably say that he has not got the money to give a really satisfactory general service. Now, if the Minister is really fit for his job, he should be able to get the money.

The automatic system came in some years ago. It is disimproving. Is the system out of date? I have used telephones in other countries and the dialling system has been very satisfactory. I would urge the Minister to instal a modern system. The telephone system around Tuam is very bad. A great many people in that area have been on the waiting list for quite a considerable time. The Minister should take steps to speed up the installation of these telephones. Every year on this Estimate we have the same complaints to make and one begins to wonder if one is wasting one's breath. The Minister does not seem to do much about our complaints.

Some programmes on Telefís Éireann seem to be biased in favour of the Government. When the Taoiseach went to meet Mr. Heath in Chequers that meeting was covered by every programme on which it could be covered—in the news bulletin, on the "7 Days" programme, on "Féach" and on anything and everything else. There are, of course, people who like to see the Taoiseach getting all the publicity possible, but I think it was overdone on that occasion. Of course the meeting should be publicised but there was no need to have three or four sets of television personnel covering it. It is a waste of money.

There are bad programmes on Telefís Éireann and I doubt if the authority are prepared to do anything about them. The films shown over the week-end are at least 20 years old. They may appeal to the older generations but they have certainly no appeal for the young people. Surely more modern films could be shown.

The people in the area from which I come—the west coast of Galway— have to rely on Telefís Éireann. The people living here on the east coast can get UTV, BBC 1 and 2, Harlech and some other stations. There are parts of Roscommon in which they can get BBC but reception is not very good. With piped television in many parts of the city we in the west of Ireland are not getting the same television service as those in Dublin and probably along the east coast and also in the north-east where they can get good reception from UTV. It is unreasonable to expect those living in an area where you can receive only Telefís Éireann to pay the same amount as those who can tune in to many other stations. I think the other stations are far superior in many ways to Telefís Éireann. I refer particularly to the BBC and their sporting programmes transmitted all day on Saturday. UTV transmit the "Match of the Day" on Sunday, and on Saturday night you also have the BBC "Match of the Day".

Mr. Lemass

You have wrestling from 4 o'clock.

Mr. Donnellan

It is not to wrestling particularly I am referring but to association football, otherwise known as soccer. Where people have a choice Telefís Éireann are gradually losing their audience, but in the west of Ireland we never get an opportunity to look at BBC sports programmes. The Minister should impress on the authority that people in the west of Ireland should have the same opportunity of seeing sports programmes on BBC and UTV as those living in other parts of the country. We have to pay the same television licence fee as those who are able to see these other programmes. Telefís Éireann should make some arrangements so that we in the west can see the same programmes as those in the east, seeing that we have to pay the same fee. We should get fair play.

Generally, as regards the sports department of Telefís Éireann, it could be said that if there was horse-racing or jumping anywhere in the country it would be covered. Taking into consideration the number of people who are interested in these sports, they got more than their due time from Telefís Éireann. I do not know who was responsible but as one who spent most of his active life in sport—I am not too inactive yet but too inactive to take part in any useful capacity—I regularly meet people interested in sport who ask why Telefís Éireann are so slack in their sports programmes. If you live in Dublin you can see first division soccer matches and usually on Wednesday night there is an international match. Irish soccer, as portrayed by Telefís Éireann—they usually take it off the field—is of rather poor quality in comparison to what we could see but which we in the west of Ireland never have an opportunity to see although we pay just as much for our licences.

At one time I approached the Minister to provide a booster station so that we could get BBC reception. The BBC signal was coming into this country and it was a case of good luck to those who could get it and hard luck for those who were not able to get it. Of course Telefís Éireann could take these programmes from the BBC by some arrangement and I think they should do so.

Finally, as regards the coverage of the Olympic Games by RTE I would say that was an occasion where we had quite a number of athletes. They did not do well but in my opinion we had twice too many Telefís Éireann personnel in Munich covering these games. They gave us a rotten service. "Munich 72" by Telefís Éireann was poor and one commentator in particular seemed to favour the eastern rather than the western block. When a Russian beat a Yank he seemed to be delighted and I thought he was biased in many things he said, particularly when the Russian sprinter happened to win the 100 metres or 200 metres. He was rather happy that the American domination in the event had been broken. This did not look good for a Telefís Éireann commentator on that programme. We had a whole day watching horse jumping and again, for the number of people in this country who were followers of that sport, it seemed excessive. There were many other events taking place in which there was much more action and I think this is what the Irish people want. But they did not get it.

I am particularly interested in getting the Minister to improve the telephone service. I am also interested in all programmes on Telefís Éireann and particularly in the sports programmes. I think the sports service we get on Telefís Éireann, particularly in the west of Ireland, is disgraceful. I am sure the Minister is not getting these programmes I have mentioned in Limerick either. I would ask him to look into the problem with a view to giving us the same service as the people in the east are getting.

Mr. J. O'Leary

I am intervening in this Debate especially to inform the Minister and the House about the activities of Radio na Gaeltachta as the people of Kerry view these activities. It is a matter of national importance that special vigilance should be exercised in the case of Radio na Gaeltachta. Despite the assurances and excuses we get from the broadcasting establishment there are very few people in Kerry who do not have grave misgivings about the way Radio na Gaeltachta is being operated.

The service appears to be the happy hunting ground for individuals whose objective is to create as much mischief and disruption as they can. Some of these people who seem to have a monopoly of broadcasting time are in a position to see to it that people who disagree with their outlook very rarely get on the air. This is a fact. The influence they enjoy makes it clear that these people are either in cahoots or conspiracy with the management of Radio na Gaeltachta or else the management is grossly negligent.

The management problem is the big problem as far as I can see. I was back in the west Kerry Gaeltacht a month ago and I can tell the House that the people there were absolutely mad with the manner in which the service was being operated in that district. The manner in which one gentleman, already referred to today by Deputy Begley, was allowed under the guise of news or feature broadcasts to publicise his own activities is a shocking indictment of the station and as scandalous as it is comic, to my mind.

Recently we had Radio na Gaeltachta in Kerry purporting to report a strike where in fact there was no strike. The report was concocted by the individuals who were doing their best to hunt an industry out of the Gaeltacht. A newspaper in such a situation would without a shadow of doubt face a libel action. We also had the attempt made by the said Radio na Gaeltachta to drum up on the smallest pretext a so-called pollution problem involving the very same industry. This is a matter of grave concern and if the same thing is happening in other Gaeltacht areas, I believe there should be a sworn inquiry into the operations being conducted by the management of Radio na Gaeltachta.

The Minister and his colleague, the Minister for the Gaeltacht, should keep themselves fully informed about what is really going on. They need not be impressed by any further excuses put forward by that management. I feel very sorry for the many decent broadcasters who are trying to provide a good local cultural service but it is well known that these people are subject to insidious pressures from irresponsible and disruptive elements within Radio na Gaeltachta. This is the position in Kerry anyway. There appears to be some kind of social blackmail apparently if you do not go along with these boys. There also appears to be a witch-hunt against people who will not toe the fashionable anti-establishment line in the same station. These matters deserve the closest attention of the Minister and his colleague.

The Minister and his Department should inform themselves about the publicity being given through Radio na Gaeltachta in Kerry to the activities of an organisation called Cearta Náisiúnta Chorca Dhuibhne. This is a body organised and owned, so to speak, by three people, one of whom is the key man operating the service in the Dingle Gaeltacht. The real point about this is that the reports of activities of this so-called organisation are supplied by the leader himself and I presume he is paid for this as a journalist. I believe that this whole business requires a full-scale inquiry and that instead of telling the people in Kerry that they are being black-guarded, Radio na Gaeltachta could do useful work and instead of trying to hunt industrialists out of the area, they should be trying to promote industry. They should be telling the people the social service moneys they are entitled to get, telling them about the grants they are entitled to get and, in particular, the large sums of money which they received this year from Roinn na Gaeltachta for road improvement works in the area. This would be more in their line than the blackguardism which they are conducting.

The Minister and his Department are doing an excellent job, having regard to the resources available. There is no doubt that the telephone service continues to grow rapidly and the demand for telephones must surely be increasing now more rapidly than ever before, due to the improvement generally in the economy. I believe the fantastic demand for telephones at the moment is the result of good Government during the past ten years and more, the fact that the country is booming and the economy moving nicely and that there is affluence in the community. The fact that the waiting list grew during the past year from 7,000 to 22,500 is remarkable and it is a fair barometer of the growing economy.

Mr. L. Belton

A telephone is not a luxury now—it is a necessity.

Mr. J. O'Leary

This is due to the fact that things are ticking over up and down the country.

Mr. Coogan

A total of 70,000 unemployed.

Mr. J. O'Leary

They would not be unemployed if you went out and got jobs for them.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

We are not dealing with that matter. The Deputy is entitled to make his own statement.

Mr. J. O'Leary

It is worth noting that there is a staff of about 22,000 men and women employed by the Department and it is a tribute to the management and staff within that vast Department that we hear so little about the management-labour problems which must surely exist within a Department employing that number. I would like to compliment management and employees and the unions for the manner in which they are conducting their business. I was gratified to learn that a substantial improvement has recently been made in retirement gratuities for part-time staff and that a pension scheme for full-time unestablished staff was introduced. We had been seeking this for some time and it is indeed gratifying to know that the position has been vastly improved.

There are certain areas in rural Ireland that have not got a telephone service. I think that the case I made previously on behalf of people in the Black Valley area near Beaufort in County Kerry, was the most impressive case that could have been made for a telephone service. There are between 20 and 30 householders who are living in a valley in a remote part of Kerry. I met them recently and asked them whether they would prefer to have electricity provided or to have a telephone service and I was amazed to find that they would prefer to have a telephone. These people fear that they may be cut off from the rest of the country during bad weather and that it would not be possible to fetch a doctor or priest if an emergency arose. I know the problems so far as the Department are concerned but I can assure the Minister that the people concerned are prepared to provide voluntary labour and they may make a contribution towards the cost of providing a telephone service. The fact that they will give voluntary labour, perhaps provide machinery and probably make a capital contribution towards the cost should ensure that their application gets priority. I hope that when we are discussing the Estimate for this Department next year the area concerned will have a telephone service.

Some effort should be made to try to encourage people to keep telephone calls as brief as possible. If this were done it would help to eliminate the overloading on certain lines. A telephone should be used to convey a message or for a short conversation; it was never intended for lengthy conversations.

Mr. Coogan

What about Christmas cards? Some 30,000 or 40,000 are sent out at the expense of the taxpayers.

Mr. G. Collins

The Deputy should not talk through his hat.

Mr. J. O'Leary

The canned programmes on RTE should be phased out and replaced by our own shows and plays. We have many good writers, artists and actors and the people should hear and see these performers. I agree with the previous speaker that there should be more programmes on television devoted to sport because this would be good for the youth of the country. I should like to see such programmes screened on Saturday and Sunday nights instead of films and shows. I should like to compliment the Minister and his staff on the work they are doing and the manner in which this Estimate was introduced.

Mr. McLaughlin

Many people can get only very poor television reception —in fact some of them cannot get a picture—but in spite of this they are obliged to pay for a television licence. In cases such as this they should not be obliged to pay the full amount of the licence or, at least, they should not be pressed for payment until reception is improved.

I understand that there is a method nowadays whereby an area can be tested for reception. I understand that the equipment is very expensive but it would help if it could be made available in areas where the reception is very poor. It is useless for people to have television sets in their homes and be unable to receive any programmes. I should be obliged if the Minister would look into this matter because improved reception would be of benefit to the people especially during the winter months. They can only sit down and enjoy a good picture on television from October until March, when their work increases considerably. Very often American films which are 20 or 30 years old are shown on RTE. Irish people would prefer to see a film of local interest.

Many people are still on the waiting list for a telephone. I must admit that the telephone service has been improved considerably. We must thank the Minister for this. People have become very conscious of the telephone and the demand is increasing steadily. I should like the Minister to tackle this problem. I know that the Minister's hands are tied because of lack of money. He has a big staff, many of them highly paid. They are doing a great job. In rural areas we have a dwindling population with the result that there is a great need for the telephone service to get in touch with the doctor or the priest or the veterinary surgeon. Many old people are living on their own and they feel isolated and lonely if they have no means of communication with their families.

Coming back to RTE, we should have more programmes on agriculture. We have many agricultural shows throughout the country but, generally speaking, the only one we see on television is the Dublin Horse Show. The finest livestock are exhibited at Ballsbridge but on television we only see the horse jumping. Many people would be very interested in seeing the cattle and sheep. The horse industry is one of our finest industries but we must not forget that a great number of our people are depending on cattle and sheep. They would like them to get more coverage on television. We read about an agricultural show in Cork or Roscommon at which first-class livestock are exhibited and people would like to see them on television. This matter has been raised on a few occasions at agricultural committee meetings. More coverage should be given to agriculture.

There is a programme called "On the Land". There are many inventions today which are not familiar to our progressive farmers. It is very important that they should be made aware of them. They should be demonstrated on that programme because the farming community take a particular interest in it.

In these days of modernisation and mechanisation I suggest that RTE's farming programmes should be of greater length and variety. Our aim now should be to keep as many people as possible on the land and to try to encourage those who have left to come back. Young farmers now need more information than ever before in order to compete with our partners in the EEC and therefore I urge the Minister to suggest to RTE that their farming programmes on both sound and vision should be of longer duration and should include more practical subjects.

I am dissatisfied with the telegraphic service of the Department. Very few people will go to the trouble of sending a telegram unless the case is urgent. I have experience of cases where there was a delay of up to three hours before a telegraphic message was even touched in the post office. This is a serious defect and it should be remedied as a matter of urgency.

Many small villages in Sligo/ Leitrim and, I suppose throughout the country, need a better telephone service. I would instance a village like Ballintubber. I have brought their case to the Department on two occasions but nothing has been done. Business people, particularly, in such areas depend very much on a reliable telephone service. I therefore appeal to the Minister to see to it that the needs of such people are catered for.

In this connection, as I mentioned earlier, the farming community nowadays have more and more contact with veterinary officers of the Department of Agriculture and Fisheries. Only on six occasions during the year do these officers call on individual farmers to look after such things as the brucellosis test, bovine TB and the warble fly test. Farmers desire to have much more frequent visits, much closer contacts with these officers. I appreciate that more frequent visits would involve a substantial extra amount of money, but because of the present inadequate telephone service, farmers cannot communicate quickly with these officers.

On the question of deposits for new telephones, I suggest that a three-year rental in advance is too heavy. I am not quite sure if my figure is correct.

Mr. G. Collins

That could be so.

Mr. McLaughlin

A number of people have made representations to me on this matter and I would urge the Minister to look into it.

Mr. G. Collins

I am anxious to help in this matter but I would point out to the Deputy that the capital cost of installing an individual telephone could be as much as £1,000. In my experience the cost has been between £600 and £800.

Mr. McLaughlin

I thank the Minister. I know he will do everything possible. A number of vans have been put on the road and no doubt they are giving good service but they are also depriving people of jobs. We are living in an age when everybody wants a job. Even people with farms, and comfortable farms, want a pay packet at the end of the week. Every time the Department put a van on the road they are depriving somebody of a job. I would ask the Minister to be very slow about putting vans on the road and depriving young family men of employment. The postmen of the past gave good service and boys of today will be just as good if they are given the opportunity.

There is the problem of post offices being closed. Where at all possible I would ask the Minister not to close post offices. Down the years the post office has been part and parcel of an area. We have had enough closures. Garda barracks have been closed and homes have been closed. On a previous occasion I asked the Minister not to delay the delivery of letters by having one man appointed to do two post offices. I got an assurance from the Minister that he would put that right and I think the position has returned to normal. To have a postman delivering letters from 8 o'clock until 12 noon and then going to another area from 12 noon until 2 p.m. or 3 p.m. is not giving a good service. The people did not like that at any time.

There are boys and girls working in post offices many miles from home when, with a bit of co-operation, many of them could be placed in their own localities. I know of one girl who is about to be made permanent and transferred from Sligo. It means she will have to leave home and her widowed mother and wait until a vacancy arises before she can hope to get back to her native town. It is a pity that a girl like her cannot be made permanent in her own locality instead of having to go to Dublin. It would save the home and the person concerned considerable expense.

People receive parcels from England or America and with the duty charged on them it would be almost as cheap to send them back. A substantial sum has already been paid on the parcel when it was posted and when it arrives at Sligo or Manorhamilton there may be £4 or £5 to be paid on it. This is unfair. Public representatives have to go to the Revenue Commissioners and in the end the parcel either has to go back or the duty has to be paid.

Progress reported; Committee to sit again.