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Dáil Éireann debate -
Wednesday, 28 Mar 1973

Vol. 265 No. 2

Committee on Finance. - Vote 26: Local Government.

I move:

That a supplementary sum not exceeding £5,671,000 be granted to defray the charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1973, for the salaries and expenses of the Office of the Minister for Local Government, including grants to Local Authorities, grants and other expenses in connection with housing, and miscellaneous schemes and grants including a grant-in-aid.

The gross amount required is £5,776,000 but this amount is offset in part by an increase of £16,000 in Appropriations-in-Aid and a further sum of £89,000 in savings, the net amount of £5,671,000 is spread over ten separate subheads of the Vote for my Department and corresponds to 36 per cent of the original Estimate for the Department for 1972-73. The largest single element in the Supplementary Estimate is the new subhead O in which provision is being made for a sum of £2,400,000 as a grant to the Road Fund. This amount is required because of the extent by which allocations from the Road Fund in respect of the current year exceeded the estimated income from the Fund.

Next in importance is a sum of £1,800,000 in subhead E 2. This additional amount is necessary to meet the Department's commitments in respect of grants for private houses. The original provision of £4,700,000 for this proposal was exhausted some months ago. A sum of £542,000 is required under subhead E 1 to meet arrears of subsidy due to local authorities in respect of their own direct housing operations. Similarly, the additional £310,000 sought in subhead F is necessary to meet commitments to local authorities in respect of subsidy towards loan charges on capital moneys borrowed by local authorities for water and sewerage schemes. The additional £500,000 required under subhead K is to meet commitments in respect of local improvement schemes on foot of supplementary allocations made to local authorities for this purpose in September, 1972, and December, 1972.

As Deputies are aware, the Exchequer pays a subsidy to local authorities towards the current costs of providing dwellings. The subsidy is in the form of an annual contribution towards the loan charges payable by the authorities on the capital borrowed by them and may amount to 66? per cent of those charges. The Exchequer contribution, however, is restricted to a percentage of the loan charges on fixed limits of capital costs. Because these limits were not revised regularly and adequately by the previous Government to take account of increases in the actual cost of providing housing, they are very much too low and, in fact, now represent less than 50 per cent of the present cost of providing a typical local authority house.

For example, the provision of a local authority house now costs £4,700 on average but the limit of capital cost for subsidy purpose is only £2,200. The annual cost of providing and maintaining such a house is about £514. The maximum annual subsidy paid by the Exchequer amounts to only £138 which, taking into account an average annual rent of about £114, leaves £262 to be met annually from the rates in respect of each new house provided by a local authority. Therefore, the situation at present is that subsidy from the Exchequer, although nominally payable at a rate of up to 66? per cent of annual loan charges, in fact meets only 35 per cent of the annual loss on each new local authority house. The disparity in the apportionment of the burden is even more marked in the case of flats because the subsidy from the Exchequer meets only 27 per cent of the annual loss of each new flat. The restriction of housing subsidy from the Exchequer to fix limits of capital costs which are so much out of date is indicative of the previous Government's unrealistic approach to local authority housing and has resulted in an excessive housing subsidy burden falling on the rates.

On a point of order, I wonder could we get a copy of the statement from which the Minister is reading. I did not realise he was going to be contentious, but since he is we better see what he is saying.

I am sure Deputy Colley will understand that we are very new on this side of the House and it may not be possible to have copies available but I will pass this to him as soon as I have completed it.

The Minister will appreciate that since he is making what appeared to be contentious statements it is necessary to see what he is saying. We do not want to be difficult but, nevertheless, there is a procedure in the House whereby if the Minister is reading a statement copies are supplied.

Not always and the previous Minister is aware of the fact that on more than one occasion it was not possible to get copies of the statements immediately.

I am not so aware.

I do not think that is correct. I always made copies available to the House.

I have been in the House for practically every debate and copies of statements were not always issued. I am making a factual statement and I will let the Deputy have a copy as soon as I am finished with it.

Is it factual?

It is factual. It is unpalatable but it is factual.

I cannot accept what the Minister is saying.

It is factual but it is unpalatable.

Is the Minister going to continue?

Yes. I am entitled to continue.

Then he should make his speech without reading it.

I am entitled to make my speech by reading it as the former Minister always did.

Not without circulating copies of it.

Of course, I am.

Perhaps the Leas-Cheann Comhairle will give us a ruling on this.

I have been long enough in this House to know what the procedure is.

We will abide by the decision of the Chair.

So will I.

The Minister is entitled to make his statement.

Is he entitled to read it without circulating copies of it?

It has been done on numerous occasions as the Deputies on the opposite side of the House are well aware.

That is not so. When I was in the Department copies were always circulated.

This short-sighted policy may well have induced some local authorities to slow or stop building further local authority dwellings notwithstanding the urgency of the need for such dwellings in their areas. The policy in relation to the subsidisation of local authority housing which I have inherited will have to be overhauled as soon as possible. In this connection the Government are committed to transferring housing subsidies from the rates to the Exchequer over a period of years. The first phase of this transfer will be undertaken in the coming financial year. Its details will shortly be announced by the Government. I intend to initiate a comprehensive examination of the existing subsidy structure and submit firm proposals to the Government at an early date for its improvement.

The £165,000 under subhead G is to meet commitments arising on foot of additional allocations made to local authorities in December, 1972, in respect of amenity schemes. The balance of the Supplementary Estimate is made up of an increase of £30,000 in the grant-in-aid to An Foras Forbartha and a number of smaller sums in respect of expenses incurred directly by my Department on foot of Post Office services, travelling expenses and statutory inquiries. I realise that the net additional amount sought at £5,671,000 is very substantial in relation to the original vote of £15,575,000 for my Department but these amounts are necessary to meet the charges falling on my Department in the current year in respect of the various services to which I have referred.

I agree with the motion but I have not heard the whole statement. It is the usual courtesy for Ministers to give copies of their statements to Opposition spokesmen. As the money being voted is money expended during my term of office, I certainly agree that it should be voted here today and I certainly will not oppose that. It is very clearly reflected in the amounts that have been asked for here that we were very active in the Department and continued an upward trend in each sector of activity which the Department was dealing with.

The commitment to housing on the part of the former Fianna Fáil Government is clearly indicated in the overall amounts and in the supplementary amounts which we devoted to housing and to the other activities of the Department. I hope that this will continue and I will have to avail of another opportunity to deal with the contentious and, indeed, nonfactual statements which the Minister made in the speech he read out to the House but which he did not circulate.

Question put and agreed to.
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