Dáil Éireann debate -
Tuesday, 26 Jun 1973

Vol. 266 No. 8

Committee on Finance. - Vote 8: Public Works and Buildings (Resumed).

Debate resumed on the following motion:

That a sum not exceeding £17,067,000 be granted to defray the charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1974, for the salaries and expenses of the Office of Public Works; for expenditure in respect of public buildings; for the maintenance of certain parks and public works; for the execution and maintenance of drainage and other engineering works; for expenditure arising from damage to the property of External Governments; and for payment of certain grants-in-aid.

—(Minister for Local Government.)

Mr. McMahon

When the debate adjourned last week I was drawing attention to the exterior of Leinster House. In particular I was referring to the exterior on the Kildare Street side. As one approaches Leinster House from the Kildare Street gate, one sees a very fine building, but the present state of the walls leaves much to be desired. They could do with a facelift. The wires should be tidied and the place given a general brush-down. It is important that we should give a good impression to visitors to the House. The impression they get when they come into the Chamber is in the hands of the individual Deputies. We should make an effort to give a better impression of the building to people entering it. It could be done at very little cost. Some attention should also be given to the waiting room at the Kildare Street entrance where visitors or constituents, when they are waiting for Deputies, sometimes have to sit for over an hour, in the waiting room. This waiting room should be made more comfortable for those who have to wait.

I would not approve increasing the height of the glass surround on the public gallery. I remember the original grill; it was a very ugly affair. I see very little wrong with the present arrangement; the effect is quite attractive. I know the main reason for the proposal to raise the glass partition to ceiling height is for security purposes. If security is as it should be there should be no need for raising this partition. Deputies can help here by ensuring that the people they bring in on the premises are vouched for and, if they are, there should be no difficulty.

There are many national monuments in County Dublin, such as stone crosses and holy wells, which are of great historical interest. If these are not taken over they will disappear with the advent of the builders and developers. Land being the price it is the temptation to remove these historic monuments is very great. The Office of Public Works should, in conjunction with the local authority, take steps to ensure that these historic monuments are preserved. Many of these go back hundreds of years. They are irreplaceable and if some move is not made quickly, many of these will be lost to us for ever.

The contribution towards education is not sufficient in this day and age. The difficulty of finding the money for the provision of primary schools in newly built-up areas is proving too great in many cases for the school managers. A better contribution should be made from State funds. At the moment there is a grant of two-thirds towards the cost of the building but there is no grant towards the cost of the site and school managers find it very difficult to raise the money to buy sites. The Office of Public Works should be responsible for the full cost of the sites.

An Ceann Comhairle

The matter of financing school buildings and sites, et cetera, would seem to be a matter for the Department of Education rather than the Office of Public Work. The latter merely act as agents for the Department of Education.

Mr. McMahon

May I refer for a moment to the grants towards the maintenance of schools? Again, it is two-thirds for furniture. That seems reasonable enough. The grant for cleaning, et cetera, is very small. I should like the Parliamentary Secretary to see if he could improve this grant because in developing areas it is difficult for the managers to find funds for this purpose.

The Parliamentary Secretary should also have a look at the grants for painting. These are available only every so many years. In many instances we are being pennywise and pound foolish because the painting of schools is very necessary. We know that if we do not paint our own homes they deteriorate very rapidly. It is important that each school should be painted as often as this is seen to be necessary.

An architect from the Office of Public Works should visit each school periodically. In some parts of the country it is necessary to paint more often than in other parts. In certain areas it may be necessary to paint a school after two or three years, whereas in other areas it may only be necessary after three, four or five years. One cannot have a hard and fast rule in regard to the exterior maintenance of schools but they should be checked on more frequently and an architect should be made available to visit and report on schools.

The Ceann Comhairle has drawn my attention to the fact that my remarks would be more appropriate to a debate on the Estimate for the Department of Education but if there is anything the Parliamentary Secretary can do to hasten the day when his office will make a contribution towards sites for primary schools or indeed buy the sites for the school managers, I would welcome it.

Mr. Tunney

The debate on the Estimate for the Office of Public Works is usually wide-ranging. An indication of the importance of this Estimate is shown by the amount involved—£17 million. There are many matters to which I could refer but I shall confine myself to one or two and endeavour to emphasise them in the hope that they will be met with sympathy and understanding from the Parliamentary Secretary.

I should like to say how happy I was that when that vacancy occurred it was Deputy Henry Kenny who was chosen to fill it. I say this not with a view to getting any special favours from him but I am happy that he has the personality, the resourcefulness and, indeed, the imagination to leave the track of his hand—I will not say his boot, though it might be necessary at times—on the Office of Public Works.

I shall appeal to the Parliamentary Secretary on a matter which is dear to my heart. As the Ceann Comhairle has indicated, there are certain areas where the Office of Public Works act as agents for other Departments. The area in which I have a special interest is absolutely a household matter for the office itself. I refer, as I have done every year since my election to this House, to the Phoenix Park. I am somewhat disappointed that there is not greater reference to it in the Parliamentary Secretary's statement. While in quantity the reference is not there, the quality, having regard to surveys carried out, reminds me that the new Parliamentary Secretary is not unmindful of the importance of the Phoenix Park in the life of the people of Dublin and, indeed, the people of the country as a whole. In the times in which we live, there are many pressures on people, especially in cities, I think we can say assuredly that the Lord ordained that there were certain amenities which the human being might have.

I hope He ordained that every human being should have the right to see green pastures, to see trees and flowers, that he should have the right to walk through such an area, preferably without having to pay a fee for it, and that the only obligation upon him would be that he would leave these amenities in the same good state in which he found them. That is what I hope the Office of Public Works will do in the matter of the Phoenix Park. I hope that the Phoenix Park will continue to be looked after and allowed to retain, as far as possible, its natural beauty and appeal. Being mindful of the pressures that are on people, I believe it is important that they should have an area there catering for all ages. In this area the lady should be catered for so that she can move out with her baby in a pram while an old person should have facilities to sit down and enjoy the view of the surroundings.

I appeal to the Parliamentary Secretary to have particular regard for elderly people who use this park. In recent times there has been an extension of the facilities granted to people who are anxious to indulge in horse riding. Over the last few years this exercise has been pursued to the detriment of other users of the park. The question of the safety of the other users of the park also arises in this regard.

When I questioned the Minister for Finance about this matter I was disturbed to discover that if a person in the park is injured by some inexperienced or careless horse rider the only redress he has is against the horse rider in question. To qualify for these horse riding exercises one need only have 50p, at the most £1. This is a dangerous area for the Office of Public Works and one to which they should no longer contribute. It is possible at present in the Phoenix Park for a person to be seriously injured, or killed, by inexperienced horse riders. The only redress such a person has is to take action against a youth of, perhaps, 15 or 16 years of age.

The Parliamentary Secretary is aiding and abetting and helping in the commercial pursuits of the owners of these horses. They are receiving from the State co-operation which, I believe, is not given to any other commercial concern. The Parliamentary Secretary may wish me to elaborate on this matter. He is providing these facilities for these people. The stables are all on the perimeter of the park.

Mr. Kenny

Privately owned?

Mr. Tunney

Yes. The Parliamentary Secretary might get special rates but the ordinary person, if he wished to enjoy this pastime, would have to pay £1 for the use of one of these horses for an hour. This horse travels through the Phoenix Park at certain risk to other users of the park. Such activities are also leading to the despoilation of the park. The horses are also causing damage.

Mr. Kenny

Would the Deputy elaborate on the damage?

Mr. Tunney

If one travels through the park one can see large areas where the green grass does not grow any longer.

Mr. Kenny

Is it the Deputy's concern that the horses take the same route every day?

Mr. Tunney

Apparently they do. During the winter months when the normal route becomes too soft for them the horses move out to greener pastures.

Mr. White

Is it the path that these horses take through the park that the Deputy is worried about?

Mr. Tunney

Yes. The business has grown to such an extent that these pathways can no longer contain them. Whether they can or not the owners of these horses seem to be taking french leave.

Mr. Kenny

The Deputy's only objection is to the commercialisation of such establishments? Would the Deputy object to a private horse owner going to the park on his own animal?

Mr. Tunney

Not at all. I would not object to a certain amount of commercialisation but I think that the people who use the park, and who are benefiting from it, should be obliged to pay a certain fee to the Office of Public Works. This fee should be commensurate with the damage caused and should go towards the restoration of the areas destroyed.

Ruairí Brugha

The Deputy also had the question of public liability in mind.

Mr. Tunney

That is a most important point. What happens in the case of people who are injured by these horses? Some of the horses are of an age, and of a type, that they will not throw any jockey but there are others that in the hands of inexperienced people could bolt, shy and do damage.

I think we can leave the horse side for the moment and return to my original plea. I am very mindful of the fact that Deputy Henry Kenny has been appointed Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister for Finance with responsibility for the Office of Public Works. The Parliamentary Secretary, to whom I extend my congratulations on his appointment, lives in an area where the matters to which I have referred are relatively unimportant in so far as they surround him on every side. I know that somebody living in, say, Westport has only to travel a few hundred yards to be able to enjoy amenities of a character that are not available to the city dwellers. Perhaps because these amenities are so available to the Parliamentary Secretary, it is necessary for me to remind him of how vital they are to the city dweller.

I am very happy in regard to certain proposals which the Office of Public Works have in mind. However, I regret that it is taking so long to implement these worthwhile proposals. I would venture to say that for every additional £ spent on the Phoenix Park, there will be a saving in one way or another to the State of £2. If we were to spend more money on the Phoenix Park, it would not be necessary for us to spend so much money on such places as reform homes, prisons and other such establishments and neither might it be necessary for us to spend so much in the fields of health and education. I hope that I will not be taken as putting forward a city view on this matter. I would advocate the same proposals in respect of any city. While it may sound paradoxical, the longer we live, the greater will be the need not to modernise the Phoenix Park but the greater will be the need to leave the Phoenix Park as it was 100 years ago. I would hope that, by and large, it would be the same 100 years hence as it is now.

There must be no departure from the natural state of the park. This is the lung of the city and an amenity of its kind is necessary in any growing city. While the Phoenix Park may be regarded as a tourist attraction my real interest in it is its relationship to the well-being of the people of Dublin, especially those who do not find it possible to get out to country areas.

I should like to correct any false impression I may have given in regard to the horse because there is no more attractive or natural addition to the park than this animal but we must not allow the park to be used by horses to the extent that this is happening at the moment.

As an educationalist, the Parliamentary Secretary might consider the final point I make so far as this park is concerned. The natural environment, such as that available in the park, is very beneficial to our citizens. Having regard to the thousands of people of all ages who avail of the park it is interesting to note that there is an extraordinarily low incidence of vandalism there. Perhaps this can be attributed to the respect which people have for nature at its best. On the question of physical education in the context of the Phoenix Park, I make an appeal to the Parliamentary Secretary on behalf of those people who play soccer and Gaelic football in the area known as the Fifteen Acres. Some time ago arrangements were made between the Office of Public Works and the respective executives of the two associations catering for these sports in regard to pavilions that were erected in that area. During the short few weeks that I acted as Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister for Education I was surprised to discover that in respect of the construction of those pavilions the two associations concerned were required to pay a fee. No fee is required from those who own the horses that are to be seen in the park. The GAA is an amateur association and the soccer association which caters for juveniles can be described also as an amateur association. I understand that some proportion of the money they were required to pay towards the construction of the pavilion is still outstanding. The least we might do——

Mr. Kenny

I suppose the Deputy is asking me to remit the amount concerned?

Mr. Tunney

The Parliamentary Secretary might consider the situation in relation to the horses. Having got an assurance from the Parliamentary Secretary that there will be a remission in respect of the GAA I hope that his generosity will extend to the other association also.

Before concluding I shall renew an appeal that I made last year in respect of the portraits that hang in this House. On several occasions I have heard Deputies who, while acting as guides, attribute the wrong names to certain portraits. It would be desirable to have a small name plate under each portrait.

Mr. Davern

That matter should be taken up with the education authorities.

Mr. Tunney

I am referring to the portraits in the main hall and to the two that hang in the Seanad ante-room.

Ruairí Brugha

Whose portraits are they.

Mr. Tunney

Wolfe Tone's and Emmet's.

Mr. Davern

Which is which?

Mr. Tunney

As I passed through I heard other Deputies and Senators mention other names.

Mr. Moore

They were not in our party.

Mr. Davern

They were probably from Dublin.

Mr. Tunney

B'fhéidir go ndéan-fadh an Rúnaí Parlaiminte rud éigin faoi sin. Measaim go mba cheart ainmneacha na laochra sin a chur faoi bhun na bpictúir, nó ós a gcionn —is cuma liom.

This is an indication of my faith in the Parliamentary Secretary. I hope he will help to redress the imbalance that exists in Dublin in relation to planning, although I realise that is a tall order. Dublin is an extraordinary city. The planners, most of whom live on the south side, arrange to have prestigious buildings on the south side but on the north side there are prisons, reformatory schools, the bulk of the local authority dwellings and 85 per cent of third-level education establishments.

I am not suggesting the Parliamentary Secretary can bring about a great change in this but perhaps he might do something about the location of State offices. I have already expressed my thanks that his office have arranged to have State offices at Phibsboro' and I hope more will be sited at Finglas and at the North Circular Road.

Mr. Kenny

This imbalance has occurred over the last 30 years. Does the Deputy expect me to correct this imbalance in the next five years?

Mr. Tunney

It is obvious the Parliamentary Secretary is in pursuit of the flattery I gave him some time ago but I cannot guarantee to continue on that note. I know he will do his best to redress the imbalance I have mentioned with regard to planning in the city of Dublin.

Deputy Ruairí Brugha and Deputy Davern rose.

An Ceann Comhairle

Deputy Ruairí Brugha.

Mr. Davern

I thought I was senior.

An Ceann Comhairle

That is a matter for the two Deputies to decide among themselves.

Mr. Davern

I would ask Deputy Brugha to be kind enough to let me speak—I shall only be ten minutes.

An Ceann Comhairle

If Deputy Brugha gives way it is in order.

Ruairí Brugha

The Deputy may speak. I trust he will not be very long.

Mr. Davern

I should like to congratulate the Parliamentary Secretary on his appointment. I heard him speak in public in South Tipperary last weekend; I hope he will continue the good work carried out in his Department in the last 16 years and that he will maintain the high standard already set.

I should like to congratulate the Office of Public Works on the guide system now in operation throughout the country with regard to national monuments. I should also like to congratulate the local guides in Cashel and in Cahir Castle for their very valuable work. Their example has been of benefit to other areas in the country. However, there are one or two problems with regard to the Rock of Cashel. Money collected during the summer months at any national monument should be redirected back into the improvement and maintenance of that monument. I understand that preservation work is to commence this year on the Vicar's Choral at the Rock of Cashel and I hope the Office of Public Works will take full account of the potential of this area. I have been asking to have this work carried out for the last three years and I am delighted work is to commence shortly.

I am aware of some difficulties that have occurred with regard to the local caretaker. The difficulties are in regard to a concession he has in writing from the Office of Public Works for the last 18 years to operate a small shop for a very paltry wage. This man has five children. The Office of Public Works may say they give him a free house and have added extentions to it. All this is desirable but they are not benefits. They are his rights but he is being paid the paltry sum of £14 per week for a six-day week—indeed it could be regarded as much longer because his wife also works——

Mr. Kenny

Is the shop being run on profit lines? Who gets the profit?

Mr. Davern

All shops are run on profit lines. This man gets the profit of the shop but he is paid only £14 per week. He stocks the shop and he worries about it, but the Office of Public Works do not help him.

Mr. Kenny

He has a free site, house and shop and he also has the profit of the business.

Mr. Davern

There have been three generations of guides in his family and this kind of tradition is very difficult to break. This kind of loyalty cannot be broken when one considers the esteemed ecclesiastical, military and historical areas of the Rock of Cashel.

Mr. Kenny

I will not ask his name.

Mr. Davern

There is only one caretaker. He has used any profits from the shop to further his children's education. I live 300 yards away from this man and I know his problems. The Office of Public Works have always been considerate and in all my dealings with them they have been most courteous. I hope they will consider this man as a human being with a small shop who wants to continue in business. I consider the shop an asset to the national monument.

I should like, while he is in the House, to correct Deputy Lemass who, if he had bothered to consult the local authority—that is myself in this case—in regard to the allegations he made of carelessness by the caretaker and the Garda in regard to the flood lighting on the Rock of Cashel, he would have been better off than in making ill-timed and ill-informed statements.

Mr. Lemass

Who put out the light?

Mr. Davern

I do not quite know but if the Board of Works want a caretaker 24 hours a day they will have to pay him 24 hours a day seven days a week. The lighting is financed by a local voluntary committee for which I have the greatest praise. One of them, the principal of the local school, is one of the people who have been most persevering in replacing the lights as they are broken. The last official complaint to the local Garda station was in 1969 during the Fleadh Ceoil. Messrs. Guinness have not complained officially either to the Board of Works or to the Garda. I suggest Deputy Lemass's information was based on local rumour rather than facts. There is easy access to the Rock at night through Scully's monument where we all played as children at night. That is how the young vandals who are breaking the lights get there and it is they who are doing the damage through no fault of the caretaker or his family who are, and have been totally dedicated to their work for three generations.

Mr. Lemass

The Deputy lives locally but it does not seem to be that way.

Mr. Davern

I can assure the former Parliamentary Secretary that, if he were living locally and knew as much as I knew, he would not open his mouth about the situation because he's absolutely and totally ignorant regarding the actual damage done there. I do not intend to enlarge on the subject but I wish to exonerate totally both the caretaker and the local gardaí, who can do a certain amount but cannot maintain a 24 hour watch unless the Board of Works would help by ensuring that there is a watchman employed 24 hours a day. I should like the board to clean the outside walls of the castle which are being covered in ivy. In the past few years sheep were allowed to graze inside the walls and keep the grass down. There was objection because of the other benefits left by the sheep, but I now find that the contract system under which the grazing was done was not properly timed and at present there is a good growth of what is almost hay there. This is where most tourists walk around. Would the Parliamentary Secretary ensure that growth is kept in check so that tourists may enjoy the amenities freely?

There is also the matter of burial rights on the Rock. Declarations have been given by the Board of Works to such families, but I should like that in certain circumstances, where there are men with no families to succeed them or no brothers or sisters to be buried in those graves, their wives who are not specifically mentioned in the burial rights documents should be allowed to be buried in that cemetary because that would be the end of the family.

An Ceann Comhairle

The Deputy indicated to his colleague that he would take about ten minutes.

Mr. Davern

I was about to mention what the Chair is most interested in, Cahir Castle. I shall take only a few minutes. I know that the Chair is personally concerned about this castle and would not think of interrupting me. Before coming to that I should like to say that I was shocked at Whit weekend to find one of our national monuments being used by a band of travelling Italians in a local carnival. They had a motor cycle on a trapeze wire running from a pole in the middle of Dominick Street to the top of Moore Abbey. I am sure this will cause the Board of Works to turn their eyes to heaven but I can assure them I saw this myself. Moore Abbey was thus used in a commercial enterprise or, perhaps, in a sort of a trick-o'-the-loop entertainment. I ask the board to ascertain who allowed or caused that to happen and to ensure that no such desecration will be allowed in the case of any national monument.

Last week the Parliamentary Secretary said that he would accept under guardianship the outer walls of Cahir Castle belonging to Mrs. Kenny, no relation of the Parliamentary Secretary. I think she deserves mention here.

Mr. Kenny

May I correct the Deputy? I said on a public platform that I would do my utmost to prevail on the Office of Public Works to accept her generous offer.

Mr. Davern

I was merely pre-judging the result of the Parliamentary Secretary's efforts by saying that this would happen. I have absolute confidence in him that he will ensure that the outer walls will be taken in guardianship. It was intimated to me last February that they would be accepted in guardianship but not in ownership. It is hardly understandable that this woman, who was shabbily treated by the Board of Works, even though she has given them so much help was not even invited as a next-door-neighbour, not to mind one who had given so much help, to the opening of Cahir Castle——

Mr. Kenny

When I was speaking to Mrs. Kenny she did not intimate anything like that.

Mr. Davern

I have known Mrs. Kenny rather longer than the Parliamentary Secretary——

An Ceann Comhairle

The Chair would prefer that we should not refer to personalities.

Mr. Davern

We shall say the woman who owns the grounds surrounding the castle. I know the Parliamentary Secretary is most sympathetic towards this woman who has been most co-operative to the Board of Works. Most of the officials have been most co-operative towards her, but there are exceptions. I do not want to name any civil servants but I would object to the manner and attitude to that woman of one or two of them. I personally witnessed the attitude of one of them to that woman who is only interested in the promotion of the castle itself for the benefit of the local community.

Mr. Kenny

I do not believe there is any such person in the Board of Works. I have found them most co-operative and courteous.

Mr. Davern

I shall inform the Parliamentary Secretary in private of the person. I can assure him there were more witnesses than one. This may be said to be a personal grudge between this gentleman and myself, but at least I have witnesses for this occasion. I should like to ensure that the walls are taken into guardianship. Whatever money has been spent on the monument to date will bear little fruit until the total walls are taken into consideration and it can be a complete castle monument. The preservation, not conservation, of the outside walls should be included. The Office of Public Works have done a tremendous job. I should like to pay tribute to Mr. Wade, one of the people who carried out so much work there. He was the foreman and he is very ill in hospital at the moment. I should also like to pay tribute to the clerk of works in the area from whom I have seen nothing but dedication and service to the Office of Public Works. I should like the Parliamentary Secretary to give a reasonable guarantee that the Office of Public Works will take the outside walls around the Swiss Cottage into guardianship.

Mr. Kenny

My utmost may not be enough, but I will do my utmost.

Mr. Davern

My confidence in the Parliamentary Secretary leads me to presume that his utmost is the best.

Mr. Kenny

The best shall be done.

Mr. Davern

I am showing my esteem for the Parliamentary Secretary. If he says he will do his best, it will be done.

Mr. Kenny

Does the Deputy think that my personality can overwhelm the personality of the people in the Office of Public Works?

Mr. Davern

I know that the people in the Office of Public Works and the National Monuments Section are sympathetic to this cause. A little push might help get the necessary work done.

Mr. Kenny

The Deputy is very diplomatic.

Mr. Davern

Not diplomatic but merely confident of both the National Monuments Section and the Parliamentary Secretary. I would beg and plead with the Parliamentary Secretary to drain the River Suir. This was promised in 1948 by the late Michael Donnellan. We are still waiting. It is the third longest river in Ireland. It flows through the Golden Vale. I know the Ceann Comhairle is intimately interested in this. He is personally involved and asked questions about it when he was in Opposition. I know he will sympathise with me.

An Ceann Comhairle

The Chair must not be brought into the deliberations of the House. The Chair is concerned about fair play and apportionment of time in the House. I must again remind the Deputy that he secured the floor from his colleague Deputy Brugha on the basis that his time would not exceed ten minutes. It is far over that now. The Deputy should have intimated that his speech would take a longer period and secured the floor on that basis.

Mr. Davern

Deputy Brugha has intimated that I may have another five minutes.

Mr. Reynolds

Will you tell us what you did about drainage since 1948?

Mr. Davern

I will talk about drainage and you can talk about pollution. I know the Ceann Comhairle is as aware of and as worried as I am about the farming position in South Tipperary. Between 3,000 to 4,000 acres of the Golden Vale are affected yearly by flooding. In the village of Ardfinnan shops are affected. The heart of Ireland, the best agricultural land, is affected by lack of drainage in this area.

I hope that plans for national schools will be drawn up quickly to ensure that children will not be allowed to remain in substandard schools for too long a period. The Parliamentary Secretary has practical experience of this as a national school teacher. He knows that proper standards should be maintained for the betterment of education and that substandard schools should not be allowed. I would ask him to ensure that plans for the four or five national schools in South Tipperary which are awaiting approval will be expedited and sent to the Department of Finance for quick and sympathetic consideration.

I thank the Parliamentary Secretary and I would remind him to take the outside walls of Cahir Castle into guardianship not ownership and ensure that Cahir town will benefit from this extra attraction for the tourist industry, the Butler Castle.

Ruairí Brugha

Deputy Davern has taken nearly half an hour. Perhaps a Deputy from the Government side might like to speak.

An Ceann Comhairle

In accordance with normal procedure I would be calling a Member from the other side of the House. My colleagues are aware that I called Deputy Ruairí Brugha earlier. He gave way to Deputy Davern and if they do not mind I should like to call Deputy Brugha at this stage. I am grateful to Deputies for their co-operation.

Ruairí Brugha

Deputy Davern can be assured that the next time he asks me to give way I will not do so. Ba mhaith liom a rá ar dtús——

Mr. Davern

I have a very urgent appointment. I am sorry I cannot wait to hear Deputy Brugha's speech.

Ruairí Brugha

Tuigim. Cuirim fáilte roimh an méid adúirt an Rúnaí Parlaiminte i dtosach na díospóireachta seo. Ba mhaith liom chomh maith tagairt ghairid a dhéanamh don méid oibre atá idir lámhaibh ag na coimisinéirí agus don mhéid atá déanta acu ag féachaint i ndiaidh na seanfhothrach, na n-oifig Stáit go léir, Caisleán Átha Cliath, áiteacha ar nós Páirc an Fhionnuisce, Faiche Stiofáin agus mar sin de.

Luaigh cuid de na Teachtaí, nó Teachta amháin ar aon nós, an gléas aistriúcháin atá in úsáid faoi láthair. Cheap mé go ndúirt duine acu nach raibh aon ghá leis. De réir mar adeirtear liom cuireadh an gléas seo isteach an Fómhair seo caite agus tuigtear dom, cé nach rabhas sa Teach seo ag an am, gur baineadh níos mó úsáid as le mí anuas ná mar a baineadh as ón Fhómhair go dtí an Nollaig. Triail í seo chun Teachtaí agus, ar ndóigh, Airí a spreagadh chun Gaeilge a úsáid sa Teach ionus go dtabharfaidh siad dea-shompla don náisún ar fad. Ní bheinn ag súil le go mbainfí a lán úsáide as an ngléas seo i dtosach. Ní cóir d'aon duine bheith ag tnúth le torthaí tapaidh ó ghléas aistriúcháin dá shórt. Ba chóir féachaint air a leithéid mar thriail ar feadh, b'fhéidir, 5 nó 10 mbliana.

Tá deacrachtaí ag baint leis. Tá an t-aistriúchán go han-mhaith agus is féidir le gach duine sa Teach nach bhfuil dóithin taithí aige ar Ghaeilge an t-aistriúchán a leanúint ach sa Tuarascáil Oifigiúil tá tuairisc iomlán le fáil ar cad deirtear i nGaeilge. Dá bhrí sin, má bhíonn rudaí le rá ag Teachta ní thig le duine nach bhfuil mórán taithí aige ar Ghaeilge an méid atá san Tuairisc Oifigiúil a leanúint. Sin ceann de na deacrachtaí a bhaineann leis faoi láthair ach is dóigh liom gur maith an rud é an gléas seo a bheith ann. Is dóigh liom gur fearr an dualgas a bheith ar dhaoine poiblí dea-shompla a thúirt i gcás na Gaeilge a úsáid ná bheith ag moladh do dhaoine eile Gaeilge a labhairt. Bheinn féin ag súil go mbeadh níos mó den teanga á húsáid, mar a thárlaíonn go minic anois le linn Tráth na gCeist, ach, ar an dtaobh eile den scéal, bheinn ag súil go mbeadh cuid mhaith Teachtaí ag labhairt i mBéarla chomh maith. Measaim gurb é an cuspóir is cóir a bheith ann ná úsáid na Gaeilge a mhéadú diaidh ar ndiaidh i rith na mblianta ní amháin sa Teach seo ach ar fud na tíre.

One of the matters to which I wish to refer briefly is the proposal to erect a protective glass screen here in the Visitors' Gallery. Some Deputies seem to favour this proposal, while others seem to be opposed to it. I understand the idea was put forward by those responsible for security and was approved of by the outgoing Committee on Procedure and Privileges. I do not think it is a very fundamental question but, I, like some other Deputies, would urge the Parliamentary Secretary to take another look at it. Certainly it would be awkward if anything happened from the Public Gallery, but if there are people around from time to time who want to attempt something, a little bit of glass will not stop them. It is by the practice of democracy that a free community strengthens itself, and, without going too deeply into this question, it does seem to me that, having regard to events in recent years, the pressure of public opinion has been more effective than preventive action. To put this House in a glass box or to put the visitors in a glass box would not, in my opinion, be a great contribution to democracy. Democracy would be better served by people showing their disapproval of somebody's action in, say, throwing a bag of flour over that screen. Therefore, I would urge the Parliamentary Secretary to talk with the security people a second time on this question. I think it would be preferable to leave the Public Gallery as it is, so that there is no greater division between those listening to the proceedings in the Dáil and those of us taking part in them.

Mr. Kenny

The Deputy is against the proposal?

Ruairí Brugha

Yes. I am not violently against it, but I think it would be better not to proceed with this proposal. I see a garda up there. I do not think there is very much danger, and even if there is, the person who would do anything would be shouted down by the public that that sort of action would be discouraged.

I would agree with those Deputies who have spoken in favour of improving facilities for Members of the Dáil and Seanad. This has already been spelled out, and I shall not go into detail, but we would envisage Leinster House as a permanent site for Dáil Éireann in future years, if additional areas become available to the commissioners, such as that occupied by the Natural History Museum or the College of Science, they should be earmarked for improving the facilities available for the Dáil.

In regard to office buildings, I welcome the outlook that the commissioners should be providing any additional office building for State Departments rather than that private sources, either foreign or domestic, should be doing so. The idea of continuing to lease expensive office property on short-term leases goes totally against my instincts as a businessman, thinking in terms of the interests of the taxpayer. Here I might mention the sort of sites that may become available in the foreseeable future. There are many large military installations in Dublin. These are pretty antiquated buildings. Some of us have spoken on the Defence debate in favour of a military complex outside the city, so if and when these other sites become available, the Parliamentary Secretary and the commissioners should, perhaps in conjunction with the NBA, use such sites for the purpose of providing office accommodation, housing accommodation and, perhaps, even commercially-rented accommodation. Another site that occurs to me—and I do not know exactly what is to happen to it—is the Dublin Cattle Market. I understand it is no longer in use. It is the property of the Dublin Corporation but, here again, perhaps the Parliamentary Secretary could take a look at the question.

I welcome the increase in the provision for national monuments. Like other Deputies, I believe that the work of preservation which has been going on is of enormous value to the present generation and the future. In regard to the restoration of national monuments, castles and so on, which come under the care of the commissioners, I would suggest that, where suitable, they should be made a living part of the community rather than showplaces. Consideration might be given to leasing suitable buildings to responsible bodies and organisations for use as local museums, tourist offices and even as places for local civic receptions or public meetings.

Mention has also been made of extending the Office of Public Works information service as regards national monuments. This is a very good idea. It might be most efficiently fulfilled through liaison with the local regional tourist organisations. One would thus tie in the local information and the local interests with the national objective of the commissioners.

The Kennedy Memorial Hall has been referred to already. I would like to inquire from the Parliamentary Secretary what the position is. Unlike others I question, in relation to this proposal, whether any cost/benefit analysis has been made of its potential use if it is built. I know this is not directly a question for the Parliamentary Secretary or the commissioners but, as has been mentioned by another Deputy, if one is to spend a considerable amount of money in quite properly honouring the memory of a man like the late President Kennedy consideration should be given towards spending it in a way which would be useful and fruitful. I question whether a concert hall for that purpose only will not be something of a liability.

Mr. Kenny

Has the Deputy any suggestions?

Ruairí Brugha

No, but one Deputy suggested providing an amenity centre. This is one good suggestion.

Mr. Kenny

This was the subject of a parliamentary question last Wednesday to the Minister for Finance. I understand from the contents of the answer that nothing is settled yet.

Ruairí Brugha

No brainwave occurs to me. The Parliamentary Secretary might recommend the Government to look at it from the point of view that while it is quite proper to honour the late President Kennedy one should look at the way in which one does so from the point of view of value to the nation as well as honouring him.

Mr. Kenny

Of course the interparty committee must be consulted and their suggestions must be considered.

Ruairí Brugha

I will leave that to the Parliamentary Secretary. Mention has been made of the Phoenix Park. The Parliamentary Secretary mentioned the proposals coming from the students at Bolton Street Technical School. I would encourage him to consider some of these proposals because the type of exercise they have carried out is a very useful one. The idea of eventually phasing out motor traffic is a very good one. This would help, as Deputy Tunney said, to maintain a very good amenity.

In relation to Aras an Uachtaráin if possible part of the Aras and the grounds should be open to the public from time to time. The office of President should be brought as near as possible to the people. I believe the office of President is a valuable and useful one in a democracy. There is a tendency to downgrade it and to suggest you do not need it.

There is a proposal that the commissioners take over the Grand Canal. At what stage is this? The commissioners are also responsible for looking after a number of graves in Glasnevin Cemetery but from what I have seen some of these are not in the condition they might be although I do not want to elaborate on this.

The Board of Works are also doing very good work in relation to some of our harbours, especially Howth and Dún Laoghaire. The Parliamentary Secretary dealt with questions arising out of the provision of accommodation for ferries, the removal of the temporary accommodation and the provision of permanent accommodation. Have the parties involved in Dún Laoghaire been consulted in regard to the proposals for the new ferry? I believe there are four yacht clubs in the Dún Laoghaire area. I have not had much time for this pastime but I wonder, in relation to constructing a causeway connecting the pier to the car ferry, which seems to be a necessary proposal, where exactly the ramp, to which the Parliamentary Secretary referred, will be. It seems to me, from reading his remarks and looking at the site, that this ramp might cause less dislocation if it were at the causeway or running into it. As I am not sufficiently expert on this matter I recommend the Parliamentary Secretary to consult the yachting people, if this consultation has not already taken place.

I believe there are approximately 3,000 members of the different yacht clubs who are interested but I am mainly interested in the amenities which Dún Laoghaire provides for the citizens of this city and also for visitors in the business of yachting.

Mr. Kenny

I am advised that the involved parties were consulted.

Ruairí Brugha

I am glad to hear it. I do not altogether understand the proposals. I know there was considerable dislocation earlier and I think there was some sort of understanding that the position would revert to what it was.

Mr. Kenny

The position will be just as it was—all the amenities will be as before.

Ruairí Brugha

I am glad to hear it. In his opening speech the Parliamentary Secretary referred on a number of occasions to the work being done by the commissioners in the areas of environmental amenity and perhaps I will be allowed to refer to some aspects of the problem which we are facing. We are beginning to see the frightening consequences to the quality of our lives the uncontrolled or partly controlled expansion of industry and the increasing pollution of our rivers and countryside in general. It is a sort of creeping monster we have got to face up to and bring under control.

I know there are many bodies in addition to the commissioners involved in the problem of how to deal with an expanding industrial society. I had the experience during a couple of years of sitting on a committee of Foras Forbartha which produced a very useful report on our national heritage. Many State and semi-State bodies, including the commissioners, were represented on that committee. One of the problems I observed was that though each body were doing what they could, during the discussions there did not seem to be any sort of overall means of co-relating the work being done by the different bodies.

If the Chair will permit me, I should like to make a suggestion which might be useful and which the Parliamentary Secretary might consider. He said that 1,000 national monuments were in hands. If the commissioners were not in existence and had not existed, most of these monuments would have been destroyed by now and I would say something similar applies to the question of the environment and pollution. If some means is not found by the Government to bring together the different bodies, all of whom are doing their best—for example, the local authorities and the Department of Transport and Power—we may later regret it. We may one day look back and ask why there was not, for example, such a body as "Commissioners for the Environment" established in order to provide the means whereby the different groups would be brought together.

Current thinking in relation to pollution of our rivers is that it is purely a matter for the local authorities. I know this does not come directly under the Board of Works but it impinges on the question of amenities and conservation. It does not seem to me to be sufficient to leave responsibilities of this kind to the local authorities alone. They have a lot of other responsibilities, just as the commissioners have a very wide area to cover.

Mr. Kenny

And not enough money.

Ruairí Brugha

I agree entirely. I do not think we will solve these problems and come to grips with them unless we have some kind of fresh approach. The sort of approach I would suggest to the Parliamentary Secretary is that he might consider recommending the setting up of a national authority, something similar to the Board of Works, with reserved powers and finance. If we are to use our resources in a practical way and at the same time preserve our national physical heritage we need a fresh approach to this subject. Many of the bodies involved in this area are looking for help, guidance and leadership and I believe that in working amongst them there are many dedicated people who have the sense of tradition and history which the Office of Public Works has. It is a question of encouraging them, of providing a structure through which this sort of work can be done. If a vigorous, imaginative approach is not undertaken soon, in the year 2,000 our people will condemn us irrespective of which administration is here now. They will find us wanting in the fulfilment of our responsibilities in relation to the preservation of our amenities and environment and particularly from the point of view of failing to control pollution.

Mr. Reynolds

Like other Deputies I wish to congratulate Deputy Kenny on his appointment as Parliamentary Secretary and I thank him for the way he has sat here during the entire debate, sometimes without tea or lunch. He has listened to what every Deputy had to say without interrupting anybody.

I represent part of the country which one would not describe as the best land. It is Leitrim and north Roscommon and it has had the highest drop in population not alone in the last census or in the previous census or in the census before that, but in every census since the foundation of the State. It has the least number of jobs per head of the population in the country.

Since the last general election and since this Government came into office we have heard a tremendous amount of talk from the opposite benches about promises. From time to time and for their own arguments they misinterpreted the policy we put clearly before the electorate. They have said we have not fulfilled this or that promise, that we have not done away with the means test for old age pensioners, that we have not done anything about death duties——

Mr. Timmons

They are statements of fact.

Mr. Reynolds

The Deputy will be given every opportunity to speak. I will put a fact to him now. I will refer to a by-election in my constituency ten years ago when Deputy Joan Burke was a candidate. The Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister for Finance, Deputy O'Malley, God rest his soul, came to Castlerea and told people he would drain the Shannon. He said that £10 million would be spent on the drainage of the Shannon. At that time the people were walking up to their knees in it; today they are walking up to their tummies in it. When one thinks of promises we in my constituency think of that one. It was a clear promise given to the people of my constituency. These people had been hoping something would be done about the Shannon drainage.

References to drainage have been made by Deputies opposite. I will refer to some rivers in my constituency which are tributaries of the Shannon. I should like the Parliamentary Secretary to let the people of Roscommon, Leitrim and Galway know exactly what is the position in regard to Shannon drainage. We should like to know whether it is on the priority list and at what stage and when it is hoped that a survey will commence so that drainage can be tackled, or whether it is possible to have it drained at all. I, representing those people, say they are entitled to know what the position is and I have no doubt the Parliamentary Secretary will tell me.

There is no point in him, his predecessor, his successor or anybody else coming down to that part of the country and telling us we have no problem. We have serious problems and our major one is drainage and I look forward to some positive action in this respect. The Ballinamore-Ballyconnell canal has been left out of the 1938 Act which was put through this House at that time by a Deputy representing Cavan. Portion of this waterway went through that constituency. There is no hope whatever of getting these rivers into the arterial drainage scheme because they are prevented from being included by the 1938 Act. What is the position with regard to these rivers? At the moment the Office of Public Works are carrying out a survey which it is hoped to complete by the end of this year. When it is completed, are the people to be told that no money will be provided in the area for arterial drainage? Are they to be told that because it flows into the Erne no agreement can be reached between this country and Northern Ireland about it? Have the Office of Public Works or the Department of Finance started to negotiate agreements with Northern Ireland about this matter? Have they discussed the drainage of the area? This is the second longest waterway in Europe.

At the moment the Shannon is used for navigation. The Ballinamore-Bally-connell canal was used some years ago for navigation. There is also the question of drainage in that area. If this waterway could be used for navigation from the River Erne to the Shannon it would be the second longest waterway in Europe and would attract a tremendous number of visitors who are now anxious to get on waterways. As a Deputy representing that part of the country I would be anxious to know the intentions of the Office of Public Works in regard to these two drainage areas.

Deputy Geoghegan spoke last week at column 957, volume 266, No. 7:

It is only natural that I should be interested in the provision of Garda stations in my own part of the country. Even where sites are available progress is so slow in this regard that one asks from time to time what is wrong? What can be done to improve the situation? Is it lack of money? If it is, let us say so and say we must wait a certain time.

In that statement he was trying to convey that the present Government are short of money. The Deputy is quite right in that statement. We are all short of money. Every Deputy and official in this House is short of money. It is no crime to be short of money. Every piece of work that we want to be done, on a Garda barracks or elsewhere, cannot be done in one year. Why were we not told last year or the year before, or for the past 15 years, that there was a shortage of money? The motive behind that statement is to convey that, for the first time in the history of this country, there is now a shortage of money. We all know that the true situation is that all these things cannot be done at the one time. There are difficulties about Garda barracks in my constituency. As with drainage, there should be a priority list of Garda stations to be built according to the amount of money available for them. There are towns like Mohill and Carrick-on-Shannon where the Garda barracks are in a deplorable condition. If the Parliamentary Secretary is channelling money into the building of Garda barracks, the two I have mentioned and others in Roscommon should be attended to.

I want to refer to security in this House. Some people think that if there were glass up to the roof in the Public Gallery there would be no difficulty about security. A few years ago there was wire up there which one could describe as a fence between ourselves and the public. Every time one looked at it, one would think it was sheep or cattle were on the other side of it. If people want to come in here and interrupt us that is not a mortal sin. If people want to come in here and shoot us they will do so. A glass partition will not stop them. They will shoot us outside if they cannot shoot us inside and we will not be the first Members of this House to be shot. I appeal to the Parliamentary Secretary not to raise the partition any higher. It is ideal as it is. We all know the security there is and, even with that security, people have shouted at us from the Public Gallery and have promptly been removed. If people want to look at us they are certainly entitled to do that.

What I have to say now may not be entirely relevant on this particular Vote for the Office of Public Works but, from now on, before any new national school is built, would the Office of Public Works have a look at the situation because the Department of Education is, in my opinion, falling down completely on the job.

Mr. Moore

Ar dtús, ba mhaith liom comhgáirdeachas a dhéanamh leis an Runaí Parlaiminte nua.

I should like to take this opportunity of welcoming the Parliamentary Secretary and congratulating him on his elevation to this most important post. I know his term of office will be a fruitful one. He will certainly have my full co-operation and, I am sure, the co-operation of my colleagues, but that will not prohibit us being critical if the need to be critical arises. We will, however, never be unjustly or unkindly critical.

I am glad the Estimate has increased by over £3¾ million on last year. As Deputy Reynolds said, all Governments, even this Government, can be short of money and when I see an item, such as the proposed glass screen between the Public Gallery and the Deputies, I deplore such a decision. It will cost money. There may be some good reason for it, apart from the obvious one, but most of us here have been in other Parliaments in Europe and elsewhere and none of us have ever yet seen a screen between the Members and their constituents. Irish Parliamentarians are in no more danger than are their counterparts in Britain, France, Luxembourg or Strasbourg. I doubt if a glass screen would provide all that protection. In one European Parliament bundles of pamphlets were thrown on top of us but in five minutes the security men had removed the interruptors and the session went on smoothly. If the Parliamentary Secretary can do anything to reverse this decision he will be doing a good day's work for the dignity of this Parliament. The whole idea is ridiculous.

The Parliamentary Secretary dealt at length with the programme of new office building. Civil servants in certain areas in the city are only too well aware of the non-beauty of Georgian houses when they are turned into commercial or Civil Service offices. If Dublin Corporation were to apply the law rigidly on office standards the Government might well be prosecuted many times over. I know one office which I consider a danger to those working in it.

The programme mentioned by the Parliamentary Secretary has been in progress for some years. It went on apace under the last Government. I support Deputy Brugha in his suggestion that the Government should provide decent office accommodation and not leave it to private enterprise to reap the financial rewards it does. I am realistic enough to appreciate that the Government may not be able to raise the money at once, but it might be possible to approach these developers and have a kind of hire purchase arrangement. The Government should set the headline in providing the best possible accommodation for the workers. Bearing in mind that it is the people who will pay for these office blocks, we should formulate some policy which would give some return to the State eventually. One national sporting organisation, of which the Parliamentary Secretary is a member, has recently commenced office block development. Perhaps the Government could reach some agreement with that body whereby the Government could rent the accommodation for a period of ten, 12 or 15 years with an option of outright purchase at the end of the period. Possibly that suggestion could be knocked on the head by some financial wizard. We will have to spend many millions of pounds on the provision of proper accommodation for our civil servants.

I should like to congratulate the Parliamentary Secretary on the work done on Scoil Éanna. I know this had been going on in his predecessor's time. If we believe in anything of the past Scoil Éanna, where Pearse lived and taught should be preserved. The people of Dublin are very much aware of the worthiness of this project and would not begrudge any money spent on it.

On another side of the city there is the Royal Hospital which I am told is in a very bad state of disrepair. It is very old—it was built during the Williamite Wars—but it should be preserved. Perhaps the Parliamentary Secretary could tell me whether the charter of the hospital has ever been changed. Do we really own it? There was some doubt about this some years ago.

Mr. Kenny

I can tell the Deputy that we do own that building.

Mr. Moore

I am very glad to hear that. I should like to congratulate the Office of Public Works too, on the building of schools, particularly those for handicapped children. We can never spend enough money on this type of development. The more the Parliamentary Secretary can expand the programme of school building the better we, on all sides of this House, will like it.

Deputy Brugha mentioned the Kennedy Memorial. By a strange coincidence today is the tenth anniversary of President Kennedy's arrival in Dublin. While we still have not got a worthwhile memorial to him I do not despair of our coming up with some solution, whether it will be a concert hall or something else. I hope the Parliamentary Secretary will not get faint-hearted and drop the idea.

The Parliamentary Secretary referred to Dún Laoghaire harbour. I am glad to say that the Office of Public Works kept their word over the years in restoring the harbour to its former state before the new ferry terminal was erected there. Dún Laoghaire harbour is a haven for yachtsmen and as we become more affluent more people will take up sailing and we will need more space for yachts. Therefore, I am a little alarmed to hear that some change is to take place there and that a passage is to be provided for yachts. I would fear for any yacht that would have to be taken down a passage into the sea there. It is bad enough at the moment. The Parliamentary Secretary might consider providing a special yacht haven outside the actual harbour itself by constructing a pier or wharf which would give shelter to yachts. The yachts are safe enough there at present but there will be a huge expansion in this sport and the demand for space at Dún Laoghaire will grow and grow.

In this historic city of ours the marking of houses where famous men lived is very often left to voluntary bodies and to the tourist organisations. Dublin, which can boast of Shaw, Sheridan and Wilde, not to mention our patriots, would be a wonderful place for the historian if we had all the historic houses properly marked. The Office of Public Works could take over this work. Dublin has had great men in literature, art and politics. A special plaque could be designed to mark the various houses where these people lived. We must preserve the memory of these men. I know there is more important work to be done but the small matter of marking all the historic houses in Dublin would not cost much and it would arouse the interest of our visitors and, indeed, of our own people.

I am glad to see that the erection of a new complex for the Courts of Justice is to be undertaken. Anybody who has ever been in the children's court in Dublin Castle will realise the great need there is to provide proper accommodation for these youngsters, for their parents and, indeed, for the staff who have to deal with the problem of juvenile crime. When will the building of this complex start? Will it be in a year, two years or five years? If it is a long-term plan I think we should provide a new setting for the children's court because despite the good work being done by the district justice, the Garda and the welfare officers the whole atmosphere down there is against them. I suggest that the children's court should be taken out of Dublin Castle without any further delay and given some kind of adequate premises.

I think it would take a much bigger Department than the Office of Public Works to deal with pollution but each Government Department has an interest in pollution, which is becoming such a frightful problem. The Office of Public Works should be represented on any inter-departmental committee or any official or semi-official body set up to deal with this. I should like to pay tribute to the staff of the Office of Public Works for the tremendous work they do in all parts of the country. One can see their interest and dedication in the preservation of national monuments and in their publications. Pollution will get worse until, perhaps, some day civilisation will be threatened by it. The Office of Public Works, because of their record in the matter of the preservation of national monuments and their contribution to the maintenance of our national identity, should be given a leading role in the battle against pollution.

Last week the Parliamentary Secretary was asked a question about St. Stephen's Green and he promised to visit it. I hope to go there with him some day and if necessary to point out to him some of the inadequacies of that lovely park. Last week he was asked to state the type of equipment provided there for children and he said that, in fact, the equipment was not being used fully. The reason for this is that much of it is old-fashioned equipment and children nowadays, with their boundless energy, want a more challenging type of plaything, a more adventurous type of equipment. If we had more of this type of equipment in the park we would have less vandalism and fewer road accidents because when children get bored in a park such as this they run out on to the streets where the traffic is very heavy. I should like to pay tribute to a predecessor of the Parliamentary Secretary's, the late Donogh O'Malley. About eight years ago I approached him about the question of equipment for St. Stephen's Green. Without much delay he started the process of having this playground installed. Under other Parliamentary Secretaries since then vast improvements have been made. In Dublin, with its 800,000 people— soon to be one million people—we cannot have too many parks like St. Stephen's Green but each of them must have the best we can provide in the way of amenities. We should make sure the children have proper equipment in them.

Deputy Tunney spoke at length about the Phoenix Park. While I do not have any views on whether horses should be allowed to use the park I think we should resist all attempts at any type of building taking place there.

Various memorials have been suggested for the Phoenix Park but I feel that we should jealously guard every inch of green in that park. We should not allow anything to take up even one square yard of this park. We are fortunate in that the land alongside the Liffey is available for use as a golf course, and I believe that there is sufficient space there to provide other amenities. In the interests of the Irish people the Members of this House should ensure that nothing is done to the Phoenix Park that would reduce the area available for use by the general public.

Dublin was fortunate in having this park made available for the use of its citizens. It was not given by a native government but every square yard should be jealously guarded. It should go forth from this House that no incursion by builders on any part of this park will be tolerated.

The Estimate for the Office of Public Works is, in my view, one of the most interesting to come before the House because it covers everything from school buildings to archaeological excavations. I should like to congratulate the Office of Public Works on the work it has carried out throughout the country, particularly in Dublin city. In the Christchurch area very good work has been carried out by the Office of Public Works to preserve this city's links with the past. This area has been described as "the first Dublin". It has links with the Norsemen, the Vikings, and later the Normans, all of whom contributed to our history. It is a mark of our civilisation that in this age of commercialisation we can afford to stop, and think, and spend money on the excavations in order to produce more evidence of our history.

Similar work has been carried out in other parts of this country and I believe that no criticism will be offered from this side of the House when archaeological excavation is proposed. The need may arise for new schools and new hospitals but, I believe, we should get our priorities right. With the leadership of the Office of Public Works we will effect a transformation in some aspects of our national being. We can ensure that our national monuments will not be forgotten or destroyed.

In the building of schools, whether they are primary or schools for the handicapped we show that we are aware of the needs in this sphere. In congratulating the Office of Public Works I should like to state that they have succeeded over the years in keeping a very fine and distinguished line of priorities. I hope that they will continue to do so in the future.

Mr. R.P. Burke

Like the other Deputies who have spoken on this Estimate I should like to congratulate the Parliamentary Secretary on his appointment. We have a "Government of the Pale", and for this reason I am delighted to see that such an important office as that of Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister for Finance with responsibility for the Office of Public Works, has been given to a Deputy of the calibre of Deputy Kenny. I have often felt that there is only one thing better than a Mayo man and that is the son of a Mayo man born in Dublin. Deputy Kenny, I have no doubt, will fulfil his role in the Department of Finance with the rare ability that he shows and has shown in the past in this House.

While congratulating the Parliamentary Secretary on his appointment I should like to state that I was bitterly disappointed that in his speech, which covered a wide range of matters relating to the activities of the Office of Public Works, no mention was made of the constituency which I represent, North County Dublin. In this area we have many problems which could be properly handled by the Office of Public Works. For example, we have the Skerries harbour. An extension was carried out to this harbour recently but this was only for fishery purposes.

I am aware of the decision in 1972 to discuss the extensions of harbours in relation to fisheries under the Department of Agriculture and Fisheries but what I have in mind is a further extension of the harbour, not just for fishery purposes, but as a commercial proposition. I envisage something on the style of Greenore in County Louth. Skerries is near to the Dublin Airport complex where we will have industry in the future. It is adjacent to Balbriggan where there is a substantial amount of industry at the moment, and also close to Swords where there is quite an amount of industry.

The improvement of this harbour would have the effect of reducing the traffic load and the delays involved in exporting from these towns. Long delays are being experienced at present by firms in these towns due to the fact that they have to drive through the centre of Dublin. An extension of the facilities at Skerries would greatly relieve this problem.

I should like to ask the Parliamentary Secretary to extend the survey at present in operation in Skerries harbour. On the 3rd May I received a reply from the Minister for Agriculture and Fisheries to the effect that the need for a further extension of the pier at Skerries harbour in the interests of the fishing industry is at present under active examination by his Department. I should like the Parliamentary Secretary to extend this examination to evaluate the possibility, and the worth, of an extension as a commercial, as well as a fishing port.

I was disappointed that the Parliamentary Secretary did not refer to the major coast erosion problems that we have in north county Dublin. My constituency is being eroded by nature and by the Department of Local Government in its revision of constituencies. I have fear that between nature and the Department, and the Minister for Local Government, I may be left with just the town of Swords unless something is done about this coast erosion problem.

For example we have the Portrane-Donabate peninsula, an area known as the "Burrow" in Portrane. Over the last five or six years, winter after winter, this fine stretch of beach which is a natural amenity used by the people of the city and county of Dublin has been washed away. On 2nd May I asked the Parliamentary Secretary a question in regard to this coast erosion. The answer he gave was to the effect that no proposal under the Coast Protection Act, 1963, for coast protection works at the Burrow, Portrane, had been received from the local authority.

This brings me again to the Parliamentary Secretary's speech where he mentioned the protracted procedure involved in having work carried out under the Coast Protection Act. The Parliamentary Secretary said, as reported at column 16 of the Official Report for the 7th June, 1973:

. . . Deputies will appreciate that the procedures required by the Act are protracted; while the design of a scheme involves prolonged and detailed study with a high degree of specialised engineering skill. In the event the period between the initial application by a local authority and the commencement of work could run into some years. . . .

Since the procedures are so protracted and the problem is so great, some alternative legislation must be brought in because the situation should not be allowed to continue whereby such fine beaches and land tracts are being washed away by the sea. There is the same problem in Loughshinny in North County Dublin between Rush and Skerries. There is a very fine coast there but one side of it which is of soft rock—it is shale more than rock—is being eroded rapidly. In that case, there is the danger also of many houses slipping slowly into the sea but this danger is very real in respect of one house in particular. Therefore, I appeal to the Parliamentary Secretary to take some steps to bring about a change in the legislation whereby there would be a speedier process in respect of coast erosion schemes.

I should like to refer to the problem of the construction, repair and maintenance of Garda stations which are proper to the Office of Public Works. The Garda station at Lusk is in such condition that it is unchristian to ask men to work there. In reply to a question from me on the 2nd May, the Minister for Justice informed me that he intends to increase the Garda strength there. I might say that the increase is from one to two gardaí. There is a water supply through the site of the station but there is no connection from the pipes to the building. This is a disgraceful situation and I would ask the Parliamentary Secretary to give it his attention.

There are very bad conditions, too, in other Garda stations in my constituency. It is not fair to ask members of the Garda Síochána who are providing a tremendous service to the public to work in such conditions.

In this context I should like to refer to the possibility of the purchase of land as sites for Garda stations in areas that are expanding but before such areas have expanded to any great extent. What happens at present is that after a population explosion in an area, by which time all the available land has been utilised for the building of houses or is used by commercial concerns, the Department of Justice decide that a Garda station is necessary in such area. Of course, at that stage the price of a site is prohibitive. Why cannot the Department of Justice work in close liaison with the local authorities in this regard so as to ensure that in the development of new towns or in the expansion of existing ones, provision is always made for Garda stations? I hope the Parliamentary Secretary will comment on this problem when he is replying.

What I say in regard to Garda stations could be said with, perhaps, more force, in relation to schools.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

The Chair would point out to the Deputy that the Parliamentary Secretary's Office is a functional office for other Departments. The Departments must look after their own requirements; for instance the Department of Justice are responsible for Garda stations while the Department of Education are responsible for schools.

Mr. R.P. Burke

I refer to these questions in the context of the purchase of land for the buildings. The Board of Works are responsible for the purchase of the land and for the construction of the buildings on behalf of the Departments. If the sites for Garda stations were bought early enough, they would not cost nearly as much as they cost at a later stage.

An Ceann Comhairle

What the Chair is pointing out to the Deputy is that the Office of Public Works act as agents for other Departments.

Mr. R.P. Burke

I realise that but I was speaking in the context of the Parliamentary Secretary's speech where he referred to Garda stations. He referred, too, to school sites and the construction of school buildings. Again, this is an agency situation whereby the Board of Works find themselves assisting the Department of Education. In my constituency there are some major problems in regard to the provision of school sites and new school buildings. In Swords where there is a rapidly expanding population and where there are large numbers of children the problem is very serious. I appeal to the Parliamentary Secretary to ensure that all possible co-operation will be given by his office to the school manager there so that a school may be erected as quickly as possible. I am aware that the Department of Education are assisting in this matter. The same situation arises in respect of the acquisition of school sites as that which I have described in relation to sites for Garda stations.

I turn now to the question of national monuments. In this regard, the Parliamentary Secretary said, as reported at column 16 of the Official Report for the 7th June, 1973:

. . . there is a growing emphasis on the proper presentation of monuments and this year it is planned to extend the guide information service during the tourist season . . .

The Parliamentary Secretary went on to mention the various places to which this service would be extended but one place he did not mention was Dunsoghley Castle at St. Margarets. This is a very fine national monument. It is close to the main Ashbourne road as one goes from Finglas. More efforts should be made by the Department to provide car parking and a proper guide service as well as other amenities at this castle. The round tower in Lusk has been a national monument for many years. The remarks I made with regard to Dunsoghley apply in this case also.

I asked the Parliamentary Secretary a question about the money which was given by the Swords Progressive Preservation Society for the restoration and renovation of Swords Castle. The reply I received stated that Swords Castle is in private ownership and is a national monument in the guardianship of the Commissioners of Public Works. It also stated that under the National Monuments Act, the Commissioners have the duty of preserving and maintaining the castle but they are not empowered under the Act to spend money on restoration work. I was told in the reply that a sum of £1,000 was contributed by the Swords Progressive Preservation Society towards the cost of restoring the chapel and the main entrance of the castle, but this amount fell far short of the total estimate for the proposed restoration works which was of the order of £15,000. I was told that as the owner's consent was not at that time obtained no further action could be taken by the Office of Public Works.

With due respect to the Parliamentary Secretary, some action should be taken to secure the consent of the owner. I am sure it is not beyond the powers of the Parliamentary Secretary to devise some scheme whereby this necessary work can be carried out. The goodwill of the people in Swords has been demonstrated by the fact that £1,000 has been collected by the preservation society and has been presented to the Department. This alone deserves a quid pro quo from the Department to see that some work is carried out. I suggest that the Department could take some steps to get the owner's consent.

Swords Castle has many connections with our history. The proper name of the area is Swords Colmcille because of its connections with the saint and many of our great leaders passed through Swords. We should not neglect to carry out the necessary restoration work I have outlined. The contribution of £1,000 towards this work has been a unique gesture by the people of the area. I will leave the matter with the Parliamentary Secretary and I know he will give it his attention.

The Parliamentary Secretary referred to the Grand Canal and the Royal Canal. In the 1972 Development Plan for the county of Dublin which was adopted by the Dublin County Council reference was made to the canals. Under the heading "Preservation and Conservation" it is stated:

Where in development areas such features exist including canals, these will be made use of to the maximum in developing the amenity content of the new urban areas.

The Royal Canal is connected with Blanchardstown which is one of the rapidly expanding areas. It can be regarded as a city within a county and it will have a population in the region of from 120,000 to 130,000. I should like if the Parliamentary Secretary could assist the Dublin County Council in the development of this amenity for the Blanchardstown area. Sections of the Grand Canal are used for boating and there is a connection to the midlands. I would ask that the Office of Public Works carry out development work on this amenity.

The people in County Dublin are grateful to the Office of Public Works for the work they have done and for their declaration of some monuments as national monuments, including the church on St. Patrick's Island in Skerries. There are many other valuable and historical buildings in County Dublin that are worthy of consideration by the Office of Public Works and I would ask the Parliamentary Secretary to take them into account.

For example, there is the Malahide Castle, gardens and church. I do not want to go into this subject in detail but I would ask the Parliamentary Secretary to keep it in mind. There is also the Braemore Castle and church, the castle and church at Balrothery and Portrane Castle which has connections with Dean Swift. This has been noted as a protected building under the County Dublin Development Plan but perhaps the section dealing with national monuments might take note of this also.

In North County Dublin there are a number of Martello Towers. There are towers at Portmarnock, Malahide, Donabate, Portrane, Rush, Skerries, Balbriggan et cetera. All of these have a place in our history. They are landmarks in North County Dublin and I hope they will come under the attention of the Office of Public Works.

I should like to mention the round tower, the church tower and the Cross in Swords. This is a special landmark in the County Dublin area and the Swords Progressive Preservation Society are carrying out guide services similar to those operated by the Office of Public Works on national monuments. They are doing an excellent job and they are preparing their own brochures but the Office of Public Works could do something to help them.

One of the oldest fortifications in the country is at Dromonagh, in Loughshinny, an area between Rush and Skerries. There are only embankments left but it is one of the old timber fortifications. Now there is a Martello Tower at that spot. Unless the Office of Public Works do something to protect these fortifications we will lose them for posterity. We must protect all these monuments not only for ourselves but for our children. What we fail to protect today will be in ruins tomorrow, will disappear the following day and will be forgotten afterwards. It is essential that the Office of Public Works extend their responsibilities in this connection, with particular reference to the old fortification at Loughshinny.

I could mention various other monuments, the gateway of Finrure Park, St. Catharine's Well, Martello Towers and so on, but I shall simply ask the Parliamentary Secretary to consider those I have particularly mentioned.

He mentioned the office buildings used by the Department. I am delighted that it is his intention to continue the policy of construction rather than renting. I always thought it very desirable that Civil Service offices should be housed in buildings owned by the State rather than leased from private enterprise which undoubtedly has a very important part to play in our national economy but Civil Service offices should primarily be provided by the Government.

Reference was made to the desirability of protecting Phoenix Park amenities and the undesirability of having any buildings on it. Nobody wants to see more buildings here. The park is being used at present to a great extent by various riding schools situated on its outskirts. It is right that a large area such as the park should be used for this recreation which is growing in popularity in the Dublin area—with one proviso. At present the horses are wandering throughout the whole park, leaving hoof-marks in football grounds and so on, and if the ground is soft these grounds can be destroyed. I suggest that the Parliamentary Secretary consider the provision of a horsetrack such as, for example, exists in Hyde Park, London, to which horses could be restricted. It could be constructed in sand as in Hyde Park or in peat moss or in one of many different materials.

I am delighted to know that the public golf course there is going ahead. Golf has become one of the major recreations of Dublin people whether the full game or the pitchand-putt variety for which courses are now dotted all around the city. We should do all in our power to promote golf. Aware of this need, we in Dublin County Council purchased Corballis Golf Links and developed it as a public course. It has the disadvantage of being a bit away from the centre of the city. The new public golf course will have the advantage of being central. From our experience in County Dublin I suggest to the Parliamentary Secretary the desirability of having proper club facilities. It is no use having only shower facilities and changing rooms; the normal facilities associated with the normal golf club should be available at public courses. It is necessary to have a fulltime steward, cooks and so on, so that people can get meals after a game. Golf is not just a game for which one goes in and changes, then plays 18 holes, changes, showers and goes home; there are social elements involved. Those using public golf courses are entitled to the same facilities as those using a private golf course. The Parliamentary Secretary should consider having normal facilities such as bar, restaurant and full professional services and professional shop. I am sure there are many professionals who would be willing to take on stewarding at a public golf course.

Deputy Ruairí Brugha mentioned the concert hall and, unless I misinterpreted him, said he was not in favour of the project. As a capital city I think we should have a concert hall and not in the distant future but very soon. The cultural life of any city without a concert hall is sadly lacking. It is an essential amenity.

The Parliamentary Secretary was not here at the beginning and I am very grateful to him for coming in and sitting there all afternoon listening. In his absence I complimented him on his appointment. I referred to the fact that as this is the Government of the Pale I was delighted to see at least one man of the west there. I also observed that there was probably only one better thing than a man from Mayo and that was the son of a man from Mayo, born in County Dublin.

Mr. Coughlan

At the outset I wish to congratulate our new Parliamentary Secretary on his bold and courageous approach to his new office. He has increased the Estimate by £4 million and not one hour too soon. We have spent many a day trying to impress on the Department the urgency of works that we feel are so important to our own areas and if an attempt were made to assess the total amount to be provided for them it would be an astronomical figure. We have found that in the allocation of money for this Department, Dublin and the Dublin area have always got priority particularly as regards provision of office blocks, renting of offices and other things of secondary importance when we consider what we would like to see preserved, our national way of life and traditional heritage.

I must refer, first of all, to the conditions of workers employed with, as we like to call it down the country, the Board of Works. There are men in my area who have been employed by the Board of Works for ten years and more, and they are still employed on a temporary basis. I cannot see why any man with such a service should not be employed on a permanent basis. I cannot understand the reasoning behind this. I would ask the Parliamentary Secretary to apply himself to the working conditions of the people in his Office. If you have not contentment and security of employment how will you get good results? It is absolutely impossible. The first step the Parliamentary Secretary should take as a young, able, courageous and energetic man is the provision of decent and permanent employment for these workers. That is not the position, unfortunately. I do not know why. I would impress on the Parliamentary Secretary that, if he wants to get a job well done, he must make conditions of employment happy and also give workers security and pensionable employment. If he does that, the results from his Department will be much better.

I want to congratulate him again. I am not a man who congratulates people too often; the reverse is the case. For some 15 or 20 years we in Limerick have been advocating a development which we know will be remunerative, and will repay whatever investment is made in it. We have been continually agitating down the years for the development of the historic Castle of King John. Developments have been made within our region at Bunratty and Knappogue. These investments have proved sound, not alone financially but also as a tourist attraction. The banquets, which give the historical background of our nation, presented by the players through pageants and ballads, have greatly impressed visitors from England, the Continent and America. When we started at Bunratty we had one session. Now we have three or four sessions a day The same applies at Knappogue which is six or seven miles further inland in County Clare. We have been advocating and agitating for a similar development within the city of Limerick in the Castle of King John.

Something is about to be done. I am at a loss to find out what exactly will be done because there is a big development involved in this area. For some unknown reason, some 30 or 35 years ago, somebody got the brainwave that we should build houses within the confines and in the courtyard of this castle. Some 20 houses were built by Limerick Corporation within the bounds of this castle. These houses will have to be demolished if the scheme, the courtyard, and the banqueting hall which we have in mind are to be developed. If we are to do a job we had better do a good one.

Has the Parliamentary Secretary made arrangements with the Department of Local Government on this issue? We have been fighting with that Department for some ten years about the replacement of these houses which were built 30 or 35 years ago and are on fixed rents. We have made provision. We have sites ready within 200 yards of the castle for the erection of houses, our problem is a renting problem. The Department insist that if any changes are to be made these people who are to be removed will have to pay a differential rent. There our big problem lies. I would suggest respectfully to the Parliamentary Secretary that he should get in touch immediately with the Department of Local Government. Otherwise he will run headlong into a storm that he might not weather.

We have tried it unsuccessfully as a local authority. The then Minister for Local Government was the personification of arrogance. I hope the present Minister will be sympathetic and will understand the problem and with the help of his Department he will see things our way. Most of the people living within the precincts of the castle are old. Some are widows, whose rents are small and whose incomes are small. We must make some provision for them in their old age. I would ask the Parliamentary Secretary to apply himself immediately to this problem if we are to go ahead with the development of King John's Castle.

I want to assure him that with the development of this castle as a tourist attraction the investment made in it will be re-paid in a shorter time than was the case either in Bunratty or Knappogue. I know the people who are interested in it. The Shannon Development Company are interested in it. We, as members of Limerick Corporation, are interested in it, and we are prepared to go as far as a local authority can go, because we are convinced that we are backing a winner. It will be a greater winner and a winner by a far greater distance than either Bunratty or Knappogue. No time should be lost.

At the moment the castle is falling into disrepair. Nobody is caretaking the building. Holes are being bored through the walls. Away back in 1651 and 1691 it withstood the battles that were waged in Limerick but at present, through vandalism and through neglect by the Board of Works the castle is in disrepair. The old cannons around the sides of the walls are thrown off their stands on to the ground. There is no meeting of the Limerick City Council at which some complaint is not made in regard to this historical monument.

I should like to know what money is being provided for King John's Castle. If a proper reconstruction job is to be done it will cost a great deal of money. The Parliamentary Secretary's predecessor sent some engineers and advisers down to the committee which we have formed in Limerick, from the Shannon Development Committee and certain members from the Limerick City Corporation and the Limerick County Council. We have had discussions with officials of the Board of Works and have kept them up to date, but for some unknown reason we have not met now for well over 12 months. The whole thing seems to have fallen through. As far as I know, the Shannon Development Company, who were very interested at the time, pulled out. It seems that some people were dragging their heels. We blamed the Parliamentary Secretary. The Shannon Development Company are trying to blame us, the members of the Limerick Corporation. I do not know where the fault lies, but this whole matter has been dormant now for nearly two years. I am glad the Parliamentary Secretary has re-opened the matter, and I want to put him on the right road in regard to this development. It is something that is dear to us all. It is of greater historical significance than Kilkenny or any of the other castles that have been developed. The Parliamentary Secretary's job in this connection will not be an easy one, but I want to assure him that he will get the full co-operation of Limerick Corporation. We shall surmount any difficulties that arise, but we will have to get the co-operation of the Department of Local Government on this issue.

I am also glad the Parliamentary Secretary is setting up an agricultural regional research department in Limerick. I did suggest to the previous Minister for Agriculture and Fisheries that we had an ideal building within two miles of Limerick with over 100 acres of land ready for any development the Minister wished to undertake in regard to this research work. I refer to the Jesuit College at Mungret which is 104 years old this year. At the end of 1975 it will cease to be an educational institute. The Jesuits announced that their inter-cert students of last year, will continue their studies this year, and when they finish their leaving certificate next year, Mungret College will be closed down.

This building is in excellent condition. It is centrally heated. It has a heated indoor swimming pool. The laboratories and classrooms are there. At the moment there is accommodation for 130 to 150 boarders. This is an ideal site for any kind of research work, and I would suggest that the Parliamentary Secretary have discussions with the Jesuit Order and prevent what I am afraid will happen, speculative builders coming in and putting up masses of concrete around this historic building which was originally built as a university. I made representations to the previous Minister, Deputy J. Gibbons, with a view to getting an agricultural institute established there, but he explained to me that the demand was not there. However, it should be preserved for what it is. First of all, somebody should be sent down to inspect the building which, as I say, is in first-class condition. The farm side of it, which was there for the provision of milk and vegetables, has also been kept up to date. I am giving my information about this place to the Parliamentary Secretary with the best of intentions, and I hope he will pursue the matter and see that whatever can be done is done.

The Parliamentary Secretary also states that he is setting up a headquarters in Limerick for his Office. Again, I should like to know where these headquarters are to be situated. What is in Limerick at present is only a ramshackle building. It is miserable, in bad repair and completely inadequate for the work the office is doing. Their stores are scattered all over Limerick. You will find school desks in one building and various other equipment in other buildings. You will find their machines, vans and lorries scattered everywhere. The whole office is so scattered around Limerick that one would not know where to go to find what one wants. This central depot, which is to provide for the needs of the Limerick region, could be set up within the confines of Mungret College.

When I speak on the different Estimates I particularise rather than generalise because I want to put my own house in order first.

I impress on the Parliamentary Secretary to develop our canals. Have his Department realised the importance of sailing over the last five to ten years? We should realise that most people who want relaxation and pleasure nowadays get away from the roads as much as possible. They take to our lakes as they are doing all over the Continent of Europe. The Parliamentary Secretary should look at what is happening in the Scandinavian countries and the Rhine Valley. Most of us who have visited those places have seen the importance of their waterways.

What are we doing here? Our canals are overgrown and are not being used to the extent they should. I know people in Dublin who go away for weekends from Friday morning to Monday morning who tow their yachts from Dublin to Killaloe and Portumna to go sailing on Lough Derg. If our canals were cleaned they would sail on them to the Shannon. When I was very young there was great activity on the canals and rivers in my county. Many people travelled from Dublin by canal. Their boats were horse drawn, with four horses changing every ten miles. The position has now changed to the detriment of the tourist trade.

The Office of Public Works should carry out a survey of the canals. They should have them cleaned and the banks maintained. If that is done, a great tourist attraction will be provided. At Question Time today there was a question in regard to the boat which travelled from Killaloe to Portumna and around Lough Derg. It was hard to get standing room on that at one time. Perhaps it ceased to be an attraction.

The last thing I want to mention is the facility which is threatened to be withdrawn from the workers on the Bourn Vincent estate at Killarney. Those workers received supplies of milk free from the estate. They had this concession over a long period. This milk was just cooled and then given to them. We hear now that they are to be deprived of this concession. I would ask the Parliamentary Secretary to remember that if we want work well done we must have good relations with workers. We must have a good esprit de corps.

Mr. Kenny

You must have good health as well.

Mr. Coughlan

We had good health before we ever heard of Louis Pasteur. We can cool the milk and give it to those workers. I know there has been dissention about the withdrawal of this concession. I hope there will not be any agitation and I hope that the Parliamentary Secretary, with his diplomatic approach, will be able "to pasteurise" the situation and allow those workers this concession.

I wish the Parliamentary Secretary luck in his new office. I hope he will attend to his correspondence with more alacrity than he has been doing as far as I am concerned. I hope he will see many developments taking place during his time in office, which I know will be at least three or four years. I hope it will be for a lot longer after we go to the hustings again.

Mr. Gallagher

First of all, I should like to take this opportunity of congratulating the Parliamentary Secretary on his appointment. As a young boy growing up in Mayo, he was one of my idols on the football field. Today I may have a lot more white hair than he has but like other speakers who have spoken on this Estimate I congratulate him and wish him success.

At this stage I congratulate the Parliamentary Secretary's predecessor, Deputy Lemass. Speaking for my county, where we have a good deal of marine works, I can say Deputy Lemass set a very high record in the amount of money which was spent in the past few years. He was responsible for initiating schemes which the present Parliamentary Secretary will have the privilege of completing. Various grants in the region of £2¼ million have been spent on marine works in Mayo in the past few years and it is something for which we are grateful to Deputy Lemass.

I am happy to see that the Land Commission buildings are coming to Castlebar. At the same time, it is a bit sad that Mícheál Ó Moráin, who represented west Mayo for so long and worked so hard to have these buildings in Castlebar, is not in the House. However, we have some consolation in the fact that we have a Castlebar man to complete the job.

I am glad that there are some marine works of major importance listed for Mayo. One is the pier at Clare Island. This was sadly needed in the area. I know there is pressure from the people of the area to have a further extension carried out there. This is only natural because up to now there were no proper harbour facilities for boats, and because this major scheme is now being carried out a number of young people will be encouraged to look for boats and go into the fishing industry on a larger scale. I know the Parliamentary Secretary is bound by the recommendations of the Minister for Agriculture and Fisheries but I hope he will use his influence with that Minister to ensure that the extra extensions being asked for will be forthcoming.

We are glad that a major harbour at Ballyglass now seems a likelihood. I would ask the Parliamentary Secretary to take the long term view and not build merely something which will be adequate for a number of boats. I can see this major harbour at Ballyglass becoming one of the most important in the country. At the moment many of the Killybegs fleet fish off the coast of north Mayo and sometimes it is necessary for them to steam for seven or eight hours to get to the fishing grounds. They have to take the same length of time to get back to harbour, and when this major harbour is provided at Ballyglass it will not be necessary for them to waste so much time getting to and coming from the fishing grounds. Ballyglass will then become a really important harbour not alone for north Mayo but for the west coast. For that reason I ask the Parliamentary Secretary to ensure that an adequate harbour is built from the long term point of view.

In the Estimate reference is made to improving harbour facilities at Boffin Island. Indeed, the question of the islands in general and their facilities is something the Parliamentary Secretary should look into because if the people there have not proper harbour facilities it means they are tied down, that they cannot come to the nearest village to shop. They have to use small open boats. I, therefore, ask the Parliamentary Secretary to take a look at the facilities in Inishturk and the other islands off the Mayo coast.

One of the problems in regard to the islands off the Mayo coast is the fact that, for some reason or other, the Irish language is no longer spoken on them. This means they cannot avail of grants from Roinn na Gaeltachta which are readily available to islands that are fíor-Ghaeltacht.

Another important aspect is tourism. I should like to relate this also to the question of harbour facilities in the islands. There are many people living in cities who now like to enjoy the quietness and peace they find in the islands like Clare Island, Inishturk and Inishboffin. There are many tourists who decide to take their own boats and use them while on holidays. One of the snags they encounter is that there are no slips available where they can launch boats easily. Bord Fáilte and Roinn na Gaeltachta, as well as other Government agencies, should have liaison with the Office of Public Works so that money could be provided for this type of facility. The county councils could also be included in this work.

As one who has witnessed some works carried out by the Office of Public Works in our area, I am glad to see that the Parliamentary Secretary has made provision in his Estimate for new machinery. It is past time that this should have happened. I have seen machines used for dredging which, in my opinion, were obsolete. The Office of Public Works will get a better return for their money by providing suitable machinery. I remember an American who was on holidays in a certain part of Ireland watching one of these machines at work. The bucket went down and came up again, but all it seemed to be taking up was water. At last the American spoke to one of the local people and asked what was going on. The answer he got was: "They are washing the buckets". This explains the necessity for having better machinery made available to the Office of Public Works in order that they may do a better job.

I should like to agree with Deputy McMahon, who spoke about the condition of public buildings. He mentioned the state of the buildings in the vicinity of the Dáil and the Dáil itself. I remarked on this myself before this Estimate came before the House. I agree entirely that it is time this beautiful building, which is a showpiece to our own people and to visitors from many parts of the world, should be improved. We see moss growing in certain places.

Many speakers have referred to the provision of Garda barracks and the state of some of the barracks. One or two barracks in our area are in a bad way. If the Garda staff were to call in the public health authorities, I am sure some of these buildings would be condemned. This state of affairs should not be allowed to continue.

I am delighted to see that our schools have improved a good deal over the last few years. Water, sewerage and facilities of that nature which were neglected for so long have now been provided. I have a complaint about the way certain matters are dealt with and about the fact that the engineering staff of the Office of Public Works do not seem to be able to cope with all the extra demands made on them. The same number of people as were employed ten years ago are now asked to carry out ten times the amount of work which they had to do previously. The Parliamentary Secretary should have a good look at the position and try to help the engineering staff who are doing a good job but who, unfortunately, cannot find time to cope with all the demands made on them.

I had a Parliamentary Question down to the Minister for Education with regard to the building of a school at Newport, County Mayo. I am disappointed to find it seems this school is still a long way away. This may not be the fault of the Office of Public Works but possibly with more men in the field they could exercise enough pressure to have works of this kind commenced.

Bhí ceist eile agam faoi scoil i dTuar Mhic Éadaigh. Tá eolas ag an Rúnaí Parlaiminte féin ar an gceist seo. Tá sé idir lámha le bliain nó níos mó. Sé an freagra a thug an tAire Oideachais nach raibh aon scéim réidh go fóill chun deis a chur ar an scoil seo, scoil láir.

Sílim arís go gcruthaíonn seo nach bhfuil am ag na hinnealtóirí deighleáil leis na ceisteanna seo chomh réidh agus ba mhaith leo a dhéanamh.

Mr. Kenny

Chuir mé scéal chuig an bainisteoir dhá sheachtain ó shin i dtaobh scoil Deire Páirce. Chuir mé eolas chuige. Chuir mé in iúl dó an méid eolais a bhí agam.

Mr. Gallagher

Ceart go leor. Níl mé ag cur mhilleáin ar an Rúnaí Parlaiminte. Tá a fhios agam go bhfuil sé ar a dhícheall. Níl sé chomh fada sin sa phost go mbeimid ag súil go mbeadh sé in ann chuile short a dhéanamh in achar an-ghearr. Tá mé ag iarraidh cuidiú leis chun go gcuirfear rudaí chun cinn.

Mr. Kenny

Chuir mé scéala chuig an bainisteor dá sheachtain ó shin i dtaobh an méid atá déanta ag mo Roinn-se. Dúirt mé leis dá mbeadh sé socraithe aige an méid oibre sin a ghlacadh agus ansin an extension arís go ndéanfaimíd é sin.

Mr. Gallagher

Ceart go leor. With regard to the design of new schools, while they may be much brighter and much easier to work in, and while the children may have more room and more facilities, I think the outer design at least indicates a lack of imagination. We have vivid reds and blues in exterior decoration. Very often they are not at all in keeping with the other buildings in the area. The architects in the Board of Works should try to ensure that these buildings fit in in the local environment.

I am happy to note the Parliamentary Secretary has made provision for the building of more schools for the mentally retarded. In Mayo we have a very active committee which is doing great work in providing funds and buildings and in taking care of mentally retarded children. So far their efforts have been confined to dealing with mildly mentally handicapped children. Since coming into public life I have been amazed to find so many severely handicapped children who find it impossible to get into any institutions. We have, of course, to plan within the moneys available to us but I would hope that the Parliamentary Secretary would press on as quickly as possible with building for these children so that parents who have the misfortune of having to look after these children will get all the help they need.

A very important matter where schools are concerned is the provision of ample play space for the children. It is a shame to see fine schools being erected and then discover that the children have no space in which to exercise. I remember a built-up area here in Dublin. There was only one patch of green left on which the boys could play hurling or football. Within a few short years that last remaining space was taken over as a site for a hospital.

The Office of Public Works should also consider the provision of swimming pools. I am not advocating any grandiose scheme. Year after year in my area I see families coming home from Britain. The children are the children of people who emigrated to Birmingham, Manchester, London and elsewhere. It is pathetic to see our own children with not the remotest idea of how to enter the water or make an attempt at swimming while the children reared in London, Manchester and Birmingham are excellent swimmers and they take out the native children to teach them how to swim. I do not think we are demanding too much in this day and age in asking for the provision of swimming pools, centrally cited, to which the children could be brought and taught how to swim. The new curriculum gives a good deal of scope to teachers and it should be possible to arrange transport to some central point at which this kind of facility would be provided for the children.

With regard to coast erosion, I notice Mayo is not included in any of the proposed schemes. I do not blame the Parliamentary Secretary for this. Only the other day in this House I learned that these schemes have first to be taken up at county council level and passed on from there to the Parliamentary Secretary's office before a grant is made available. The engineering staff, who are often under pressure from local councillors on this very important matter, must know quite well what the position is and I am very disappointed that we, as public representatives, do not seem to be getting the full support of our engineering staff in dealing with this very important subject.

Many Deputies have stressed the importance of drainage. I agree that some intermediate schemes between the major arterial drainage schemes and the local improvement schemes are very necessary. In the past two years, because of the importance of drainage to the farmers, we have allocated 25 per cent of our local improvement scheme fund for drainage. That can cover only a very small proportion of the demands we have for drainage. There are many small rivers and many areas close to the sea where major grants are necessary in order to carry out any kind of decent job and our local improvements schemes are wholly inadequate. The Parliamentary Secretary should take a long look at this and try to have more money made available for this very important work.

Because of the increased prices for cattle and so on a greater number of people are now taking an interest in land. Because so much can now be done with machinery there are schemes and jobs which could not be attempted a number of years ago with a pick and shovel which can now be undertaken. In this way greater areas of land can be improved and people, especially in the west of Ireland, can make additional acres available to themselves. I would ask the Parliamentary Secretary to consider this very important question. He is probably well aware of the situation and I would ask him to do his utmost to have something done about it.

I am delighted that the Parliamentary Secretary mentioned that he intends to make money available to improve facilities at Dún Laoghaire for people coming on holiday with their cars. There is hardly any need for me to dwell on the importance of tourism to our economy. Any efforts that can be made to improve facilities are very welcome. Our own emigrants are the best tourists and they are always very happy to see improvements which will make it easier for them to take their families to Ireland. This is very welcome.

Ba mhaith liom arís comhgháirdeachas a dhéanamh leis an Rúnaí Parlaiminte. Táimid bródúil i gContae Mhaigheo go bhfuil an post seo aige agus béimid ag súil le toradh maith as a chuid oibre.

Mr. Enright

I should like to wish the Parliamentary Secretary every success, happiness and health during his period of office which I hope will be a long one. I hope he will see many of the items he has mentioned here reach successful fruition. I suppose the one nearest and dearest to his heart would be the opening of the new offices in Castlebar for the Department of Lands.

This is an important Estimate. The Office of Public Works deal with national monuments, the different Government Departments, restoration of buildings and many other things. One item which I hope the Parliamentary Secretary will consider seriously is the inter-departmental report on pollution. If the Ceann Comhairle will allow me I hope to elaborate on this. This office deal with many matters that are part of our heritage, part of our present and part of our future. The inter-departmental report has just been sent to local authorities; it is being considered by them and when it comes back it will be acted on. I should like to see the Parliamentary Secretary setting up a section in the Office of Public Works to begin considering straight away this problem as it affects his Department. This matter must be tackled seriously by each Department. The Office of Public Works are doing much in regard to bays, canals, piers, the coastline and so on but I do not believe they have sufficient power to prevent people spoiling our lakes, canals and rivers. It is all very well to restore monuments and extend piers but something very significant will have to be done and some power given to the Office of Public Works to prevent pollution or we will have a very serious situation. Local authorities have a certain amount of power in regard to people polluting rivers. The Inland Fisheries Trust also have certain powers. I am not certain what powers the Office of Public Works have but I would ask the Parliamentary Secretary to consult with his top officials to consider this. This is important.

The Office of Public Works provide buildings. There was a reference in the Parliamentary Secretary's speech to minor works, urgent and unforeseen works, et cetera. Perhaps in the future the Parliamentary Secretary will consider the erection of buildings to facilitate the Government Departments once the inter-Departmental report has been studied.

Every time I endeavoured to raise the problem of pollution I was informed that I was questioning the wrong Minister. I always run into difficulties in this regard.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

The Deputy is well aware that he should not advocate legislation on an Estimate.

Mr. Enright

I am not advocating legislation although I feel some is necessary. The fact that there is an increase of £3,886,000 in the Estimate is an indication that the Government recognise the importance of the Office of Public Works. Having studied the proposals in this Estimate I am satisfied that the money allocated will be spent in the best possible manner.

On the question of drainage, I should like to point out that now that we have entered the EEC it is important that every acre of land is utilised to its maximum potential. Thousands of acres of land, through bad drainage, are non-productive. A lot of the land that is flooded is unsafe for cattle because of the danger of cattle contacting diseases. There is a great need for the introduction of a major drainage drive in this country. I have been in communication with the Parliamentary Secretary in regard to a number of drainage problems in my constituency and I feel sure that he will attend to them. Every constituency has drainage problems.

The amount of money at the disposal of the Parliamentary Secretary is not adequate to carry out any major drainage works. The Parliamentary Secretary should set aside a sum in the region of £2 million annually for the purpose of carrying out major drainage schemes. Drainage work, in the long run, would be beneficial to the farming community and the country as a whole. Such work would also help to relieve the unemployment situation, particularly in rural areas.

A number of farmers in my area are handicapped by the flooding of the river between Kilcormac and Birr. Thousands of acres of land are affected by this river and I should like the Parliamentary Secretary to instruct his officials to survey this river with a view to having a drainage scheme carried out on it.

Another matter of importance in my area is the maintenance of the canals. In the midland counties the canals are important from the tourist point of view. These counties are favoured by their fishing and shooting attractions but in recent times boating has become very popular, not alone with the tourists but also with the local people. The canals in this country are in a bad state of disrepair. They have been allowed to become overgrown over the years. If they were cleaned, and properly maintained, they would be a great tourist attraction and a big asset to the midland counties.

The canals running through Offaly and Laois should be cleaned. It is possible for boating enthusiasts to use portion of these canals but the cleaning and the proper maintenance of them would mean that tourists would avail of the boating facilities in greater numbers.

I am glad to see that, for the year 1973-74, £350,000 has been allocated for the erection of new Garda stations while a sum of £65,000 is being allocated for the improvement of existing stations. The Garda at Portlaoise are anxious that a new station be provided for them. Therefore, I hope that the Parliamentary Secretary will request his officials to make a study of the situation there in this regard. If it is not possible to provide a new station, a major improvement scheme should be undertaken in respect of the existing one. Portlaoise is a big town and the Garda force there includes a chief superintendent, a superintendent and a large number of gardaí.

I am pleased, also, that accommodation is being provided for female clerical assistants at Garda stations. These girls will undertake much of the clerical work that has had to be done by Garda personnel up to now.

Item 50 of the Estimate refers to housing for married members of the Garda Síochána. I am disappointed with the sum being provided because £7,000 could not be of much help in this regard. This is a very important matter because when a married man is transferred from one area to another he usually has great difficulty in acquiring a house in the new area. This may be in a very big town where housing is very costly. Therefore, he cannot afford to purchase a home and, consequently, his wife and children may have to remain in the old area for some time. I am glad to be able to say that in Birr there are a number of houses for married gardaí.

Efforts should be made, too, to ensure that our courthouse buildings are kept up to a standard that is fitting for places in which justice is administered. The courthouse at Ferbane is urgently in need of repair.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

That is a matter for the local authority.

Mr. Enright

I will take it up with the local authority and I thank the Chair for his assistance. I am glad to note that more money is being spent on the Garda Training Centre at Templemore. This is a very important area of the Department of Justice.

It is pleasing, too, to note that the very large sum of £5 million is being allocated for the provision and improvement of national schools. Many of the national schools that I have had occasion to visit are in very good condition. Vocational educational committees have been concentrating a lot on prefabricated buildings. This may not be such a good idea. It is preferable that permanent structures be erected. National schools are very important in the context of the early education of our young boys and girls and, therefore, it is essential that they be adequate in every respect.

Before concluding I should like to mention Clonmacnoise, which is one of the most important tourist attractions in Offaly and which is visited by many people from at home and abroad each year. It is a very interesting area in which there are a number of round towers, crosses, early gravestones and holy wells. Some money has been spent on the centre but there is need for more improvements. I do not see any mention of any allocation for it in the current Estimate. I know that, certainly up to ten days ago, there were no public toilets at the centre and I expect that is still the position. Bus loads of visitors arrive there daily from all over the world so I hope the Parliamentary Secretary will ensure that proper facilities are provided there. I do not know whether this is the responsibility of the local authority but I can only hope that whoever is responsible will ensure that the matter is rectified as soon as possible. It is important that the Board of Works give constant attention to this whole area of Clonmacnoise because of its importance in terms of tourism.

When speaking of drainage earlier I forgot to mention the Ballyfinboy river which rises in Moneygall and flows across towards the Shannon near Borrisokane. I hope that this river will be drained also.

Mr. Taylor

We are all pleased to congratulate the Parliamentary Secretary on his well-deserved promotion to the Front Bench and we express the hope that his term of office will be a fruitful one. May we also express the hope that the western counties, which up to now have not benefited to the extent we would have wished, might have the advantage of the Parliamentary Secretary's generosity. Of course, drainage is a major problem in the western area. Flooding causes much anxiety to those affected by it. For many years I have been advocating a major drainage scheme for one of the biggest rivers in County Clare.

I do not know if the cost benefit study has been used since the Parliamentary Secretary took up his appointment. I would ask him to remember that Ennis, through which flows the river Fergus, is expanding economically, has great industrial potential and has a growing population. I am sure the drainage of the Fergus will be high on the priority list.

When one considers the expenditure devoted to other areas, the benefits to Clare have been comparatively few. I should like the Parliamentary Secretary to consider the inclusion in his Estimate next year of some measure to replace the local authorities works scheme which was scrapped by the previous Government. This gave many benefits to people but now they are deprived of them. When the scheme was in operation the county councils did excellent work and the scrapping of the scheme has been referred to by many local authority representatives throughout the country. It would be worthwhile if the Parliamentary Secretary would re-introduce a similar scheme which would do the unfinished work that was commenced during the term of office of the previous interparty Government.

There has been comment on the expenditure of money on schools. Many rural schools have been closed and the pupils have been transferred to larger centres. However, there appears to be undue delay in erecting and designing the necessary accommodation for national school children. In this connection I refer to a school at Kilkee, County Clare. Because of the closure of the national school the children have been accommodated in a very small room. I would ask the Office of Public Works to try to finish the work before next September when the school reopens. Before any school is closed the authorities should ensure that proper accommodation is available for the children.

I was pleased to see that the Office of Public Works have undertaken to purchase the necessary sites for the erection of Garda stations and also that provision is made for the improvement of existing stations. During the years the number of derelict buildings, particularly Garda stations, has increased considerably. One wonders why members of the Garda Síochána or the Defence Forces are asked to live in premises to which the public would strongly object. In the past 30 years several Garda stations have been classified as unfit for habitation but the Garda are obliged to live in these premises.

Similarly, members of the Defence Forces have to live in unsuitable premises. The rate of progress in renovating Garda stations and premises occupied by the Defence Forces has been too slow. Frequently people wonder why the rate of intake to the Army has not been as high as we would wish; one of the reasons is that the accommodation is not up to a desirable standard. I would ask the Office of Public Works to consider these matters.

The Parliamentary Secretary is considering the question of the erection of premises for State offices. I would ask him to consider siting these buildings in the western counties which have not yet benefited by the decentralisation all of us consider necessary.

The Parliamentary Secretary should consider the matter of improving facilities at harbours. In some areas the Office of Public Works should erect winches and do some dredging work. In this connection I refer to Liscannor where there is good deepsea fishing. The Office of Public Works should instal a winch in this area and carry out some improvements. These have been requested by the boat-owners.

Some thought should be given to archaeological excavations of forts throughout the country. In Clare there are several such forts but they appear to be forgotten. Excavation work on these ancient forts would be valuable and this work should be undertaken.

Progress reported; Committee to sit again.