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Dáil Éireann debate -
Thursday, 12 Jul 1973

Vol. 267 No. 6

Private Business. - Finance Bill, 1973: Second Stage (Resumed).

Question again proposed: "That the Bill be now read a Second Time."

In his opening statement the Minister for Finance said that the Government's aim was to have a new and better Ireland. Obviously, this would be the aim of all Governments, but it is difficult to reconcile this wish with the Finance Bill. However, there is much confusion regarding some of the benefits proposed in the Bill.

To illustrate this point I should like to refer to a notice issued by Dublin Corporation to tenants. A person had been given a waiver of rates by the corporation, had received the benefit of the reduction in the rates because of the removal of the health charges, and he had also received increased social welfare benefits. Up to recently the man had been paying £2.05 per week but now he must pay £2.63p. Irrespective of the largesse in the budget and the reduced amount of rates the pensioner had to pay an extra 57p per week. It makes one wonder if the entire system is not out of gear when this situation arises. Irrespective of the Minister's pious hope about making this a better land, the budget has not brought about any changes and it is not likely that the Finance Bill will alter the situation of pensioners.

I should like to take this opportunity of wishing the Minister for Industry and Commerce good luck when he meets the members of RGDATA next Wednesday with regard to the price limit order. Although VAT will be removed from food next September it will not mean a reduction in prices. In this morning's papers members of RGDATA stated that because of existing circumstances they cannot sell certain lines within the limits imposed by the Minister for Industry and Commerce even though the association would like to keep down prices. We cannot be confident that the removal of VAT from food will mean reduced prices.

I noted with interest that although VAT has been imposed on clothing and fuel, exemption is granted to the horse and greyhound industries. It may be that those industries are very important to the economy but clothing and footwear are essential items and the increased costs will hit the poorer section of the community.

I know that the Minister for Finance has his difficulties and I wish to be helpful in my comments. The Government have said that they will provide 25,000 houses each year. I hope they achieve their target but I have my doubts about it. In section 64 the Government make provision for increasing the stamp duty on office block buildings from 10 to 15 per cent. Some years ago the then Minister imposed 10 per cent stamp duty on office blocks; at the time I thought this was not an entirely desirable tax because the developer will get his percentage by way of increased rents. It will be the firms or the Government Departments who rent these buildings who will pay the extra amount.

I suggest that the Government might consider removing the tax from office blocks provided the owner or the developer guarantees to allow 25 per cent of the area to be used as living accommodation for those in need. If the Government adopted this suggestion it would provide much-needed living accommodation in central areas. This would be a much better social and financial investment rather than imposing a 15 per cent stamp duty. It would help towards easing the housing problem and towards achieving the target of 25,000 dwellings per year. Whatever social aims the Government may have, housing must have a high priority.

VAT is charged on building components at a rate which works out at approximately 3 per cent. If the Government are prepared to give exemption to the industries dealing with greyhounds and horses, they might consider giving the same exemption to building components. The cost of these items is aggravating the present housing situation. I am sure most Deputies would agree that this matter should be examined. Homes for people must come before horse-boxes for horses or kennels for greyhounds.

The Minister should consider the question of VAT in the context of the building industry in order to see whether its removal from this industry would help towards the achievement of the Government's target of 25,000 houses per year. Apart from the question of finance, the Government will have great difficulty in achieving that target but it would be my wish that they would achieve it during the next year. Certainly, they will have the support of this side of the House in their efforts in this regard.

The Minister said in his brief that the budget was designed to lift the growth rate appreciably and to help reduce the level of unemployment. I do not think the Finance Bill will have that effect. There are inflationary tendencies inherent in this Bill. Of course, it is much more difficult to solve the problem of unemployment or any other problem, for that matter, in an inflationary situation rather than in a deflationary one. However, I have read that some economist holds the opposite view and says that inflation can help in some cases but he did not go to any great lengths to explain the reasons for his assertion.

I admit that the social welfare aspects of the Bill are good. Let us not forget, though, that for many years budgets produced by Fianna Fáil Governments provided also for increased social welfare benefits. It was part of the social thinking in all our budgets that we help further those people who were most in need. Because of the way in which price increases are eroding the extra benefits being paid, it may be necessary in the autumn to consider the position of those people in our community who are dependent on social welfare benefits. The case I cited last night of an old age pensioner being allowed a rates waiver but having to pay an extra 57 pence per week in rent is an indication of what can happen as a result of any increases being given in payments.

We are glad to note that some help is being given to the parents of thalidomide children in so far as any money that may be paid by the German firm concerned will not be taxable. I hope the Minister will go further in this respect and will ensure that any seriously handicapped child would have an adequate income for the remainder of his life.

Perhaps the Minister would explain the position in relation to illegitimate children who inherit property. About a year ago a case was brought to my notice of an illegitimate child who had been left property by her mother but she found that in her case the amount of stamp duty payable was much greater than would have been the case in respect of a legitimate child. The then Minister made some change in this regard but this did not go the full way to meeting the problem. This is another area that the Minister might consider.

I note that in section 19 there is provision for tax remission in respect of contributions to certain charities. Am I right in thinking that these charities are only those set out by the UN and by the Council of Europe so that, perhaps, if a person in this country wishes to donate money to a charity, he would not be entitled to any tax remission on any such donation?

There are several charities which benefit at present. All I am doing is adding these human rights organisations to the charitable organisations which can get this relief.

If, say, I were to give money to some charity in this city——

I would not like to be specific at this stage but there are several charitable purposes which, at present, are entitled to this benefit. We are simply adding to the list.

It is a matter that might be well worth probing.

Charities would benefit greatly if tax remission were given to donors. In section 19, also, it is proposed to give remission to persons who donate money to universities for such purposes as industrial relations. That is welcome because the field of industrial relations is a very important one. I hope the Minister will expand in this area in his next budget.

I fault the Minister for not giving any concession to working widows. There are thousands of widows who find it necessary to go to work so that they can rear their families but there are also many others who, after their families have grown up and left home, find it necessary to earn their own living. These people should be given every possible concession in so far as taxation is concerned.

Tax concessions, too, should be greater in respect of single persons who maintain aged parents. I hope the Minister will consider the points I have raised. Perhaps he would table some amendments along the lines suggested. I am sure they would meet with general acceptance in the House.

I hope the Minister and I will have a quiet half-hour at the end of which I will have succeeded in convincing him on a matter to which I have already referred in parliamentary questions, that I will have extracted from the Minister some sympathy in respect of the wage-earner whose net income is in excess of £2,500 and that, even at this late stage, an effort will be made to correct the injustice which I consider this Finance Bill proposes in respect of quite a considerable number of people. The figure which the Minister's office has given to me is 40,000. I accept that they may not all be married but I think it is in order to accept that in the country there are at the moment 40,000 wage-earners who, because of the fact that their net income can be shown to be in excess of £2,500, are not going to get the increases which other families will get in respect of children's allowances.

The introduction of children's allowances in this and other countries was welcomed. To help indicate the injustice which I think is proposed we can take the case of two civil servants earning an annual salary of £3,000 gross. There are many such people in the country. Civil servant A has two children but, maybe in anticipation of what has happened in respect of children's allowances, he has invested in a house which exceeds considerably his housing requirements but which he realises has an appreciating value and which is a worthwhile investment to him. To do this, he has got accommodation from a bank and he is paying £300 or £400 interest. In his income tax returns he is entitled to have that waived and in respect of what has been called a net income he is getting an allowance for that amount by that means and by additional borrowing, necessary not to keep his wife and two children but because of the investment and because of the speculation in which he has indulged, all of which bring his net income below the figure of £2,500. Under the proposals in this Finance Bill that gentleman is entitled to receive the additional children's allowance in respect of the two children.

Let us take civil servant B on the same gross salary of £3,000. He is not a speculator, cannot afford to be, but believes in paying his way. He is a thrifty man. He invested in a house, sufficient to satisfy his housing needs. Civil servant B has six children but because of the fact that his attitude and his philosophy and his idea about economics consist of paying for everything he requires as he goes along, because of the fact that his idea does not allow him to enter the field of speculation, he does not owe the bank £400 a year in respect of interest. He cannot gain credit for it in his income tax returns and, accordingly, when all the appropriate deductions have been made his net income is £2,510. Notwithstanding the fact that that man has six children, notwithstanding the fact that he is a more useful member of society in that he believes in paying his way, under this Finance Bill he is being denied children's allowance.

That is indefensible. When the Minister is replying I would be happy if he could dispel my fears, but I am afraid he will confirm them. Lest there be any doubt I would ask him to clarify the position. If and when he does so, I shall then endeavour to table a suitable amendment to this Bill so that the true spirit of children's allowance will obtain, so that the thrifty man will not be penalised, and so that we will not have a situation where we are encouraging people to do as civil servant A did. I am sure that already some wise people have done so; and I would say to them that, unless the Minister can come up with something better, they should do it. They should go to the bank, mortgage their house, get credit in their income tax return for the repayments and then they will qualify for the children's allowances. The house need not be required for ordinary housing accommodation but may be used as an investment.

I do not think any Government should encourage that situation and I hope that the Minister will accept, in respect of the 40,000 people who are being deprived of the children's allowances to which I believe they are entitled, that an amendment should be made at a later stage. I know the Minister will ask if I am advocating that anybody with a net income of £20,000 per year should be paid the children's allowances. I am not making that case. If the Minister were to say that there are 200 people whose net income is in excess of £15,000 and asked me if I agreed that they should not be given children's allowances my reply would be that they should not.

I understand that there are approximately 30,000 people whose net income is between £2,500 and £3,000. These people are not the recipients of any form of assistance from any State agency. They have commitments in the matter of housing, education and maintaining a certain standard of living and I do not think that our legislation should be critical of the efforts they are making. I do not think legislation should dull the edge of their husbandry and force, or encourage them into a situation where they realise that there is more respect, and consideration, from the present Government for those who have wilfully put themselves into debt than those who are endeavouring to pay their way.

I assume that any Minister, when he has made a decision, will be reluctant to depart from it. On the other hand, I hope the Minister, if he is convinced that an injustice is being done, will accept a suitable amendment. I hope that he will accept one which will cater for the number of people to whom I have referred and which would show inter alia to the people that we have respect for, and that society generally depends upon those people who practise good husbandry, are thrifty and by their activities generate extra which makes it possible to give a helping hand to the helpless.

If we are to continue disrespecting the thrifty, if we are to continue indicating to people that the only way they can benefit from concessions which are being granted is to put themselves in debt, we are preparing the way for ultimate disaster. It may not come immediately, but a continuation of this policy must inevitably lead to the position where we will all be practising indebtedness, where we will all be borrowing. One does not have to be an expert economist to realise that such a system cannot be sustained or operate effectively.

In connection with this deprivation which has occurred in the matter of children's allowances in respect of the man whose net income is between £2,500 and £3,000, I venture to say that we are showing a certain amount of disrespect towards that man's wife. It is no harm to repeat that over the years wives have begun to accept that children's allowances are, in one form or another and however insignificant, a recognition by the community of moneys which directly, and correctly, might go to the housewife.

Under the Minister's proposals, and in respect of the earner whose net income exceeds £2,500, the allowance will go to the wife but must be given back by the husband. The Minister said in respect of some other provision in the budget that he was anxious to avoid situations where the administration of any concessions or the administration of any scheme which he had would not be excessive. I hope that he will be able to show us what it will cost to administer this deprivation scheme. It will be necessary to have civil servants looking at the man's earnings, allowing him a certain amount and disallowing him other sums, ascertaining whether he is in excess of or under the £2,500. The Minister will have another group of civil servants working on the children's allowance books, preparing and arranging for the payment of the children's allowance to that gentleman's wife. Another group will be ascertaining whether, in the overall position, the allowance is to be withheld from the husband.

It would be a very interesting exercise to discover what the total cost of that would be as against a situation in which the allowance should apply all round, again with the exception, as I said, of those people in excess of £10,000 of £15,000.

Finally, and more generally, in respect of the children's allowances the Minister has said that the allowances apply to everybody, or to practically everybody, and what are we complaining about? I have shown that they do not apply to at least 40,000 people, 40,000 who would appear admittedly to be reasonably well off and, because of that, I suppose we do not generate the same emotions on their behalf. But most of these 40,000 are, in my opinion, as poor as other sections which are perhaps more obviously poor. They are 40,000 whose way of life prevents them from advertising the poverty I know exists. In some of these homes you have the situation in which the child is going to school, apparently well clad, in an 8 or 10 hp car, but whose lunch does not contain the same nutritional value as does the lunch of many other children who are actually regarded as poor. I do not think it is right for us to penalise a person who is not making a living out of claiming that he is poor. Rather, there is an obligation on us to respect the person who has self-respect, who is contributing, who is paying for everything he gets. Whether it is because of a traditional attitude towards that section of our community, there may not be the same political mileage in it, but that is irrelevant as far as I am concerned.

In my constituency there are people in the salary bracket to which I referred and, when they have paid for all that is required of them, paid their way in the matter of housing, education and food, there is very little remaining and their standard of living and their way of living is not very pleasant. Their holidays and their entertainment are not as lavish as these things are in the lower salary brackets, for people who, for one reason or another, perhaps because of the assistance they get from certain areas, seem to enjoy an easier and a better way of life. I would appeal to the Minister not to make capital against these people by quoting someone in the £10,000 a year bracket. I have no concern at this level for the person in the £10,000 a year bracket and I am hoping the Minister will not throw that back at me. I am concerned with the wage earner in the £3,000 a year bracket. Figures show that these constitute a substantial number. It is desirable that we should indicate to the Minister that we no longer welcome or respect the contribution he is making. Rather would we encourage him to pull his coat behind him by the sleeves, to pay for as little as he can get away with paying and to desist from the thrift and good husbandry which has characterised his way of life to date.

I am now back to where we came in. When I spoke on the budget a few weeks ago I concluded my remarks in the presence of the Minister for Finance and the Minister for Local Government and one or two other Deputies. I shall avoid ending on the note on which I ended on that occasion but I would, with the permission of the Chair, avail of this opportunity to put on the record the fact that, since my arrival in this House, I have never directly or indirectly referred to any member of any family of any politician in this House and I would hope that on some future occasion the Minister who availed of the opportunity on that occassion to attribute to me remarks I did not make and say that I was in the process of selling my political soul would withdraw those remarks. The record will show that nowhere in my contribution since I came into this House did I refer to any member of any politician's family.

I accept Deputy Tunney's apology.

Deputy Tunney is asking that our very slick Minister for Local Government will on some future occasion correct the report and offer his apology.

I accepted the Deputy's apology and I ask the Deputy to remember what his backbenchers said.

Debate adjourned.
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