Dáil Éireann debate -
Tuesday, 19 Feb 1974

Vol. 270 No. 6

Private Members' Business. - Electoral (Amendment) (No. 2) Bill, 1973: Instruction to Committee.

Minister for Local Government (Mr. Tully)

I move:

That it be an instruction to the Committee on the Electoral (Amendment) (No. 2) Bill, 1973, that it has power to consider separately the entry relating to each constituency in the Schedule and that the Chairman may put the question on each entry "That the entry (or the entry as amended) relating to the constituency of (name of constituency) stand part of the Schedule."

I understand that on the previous occasion when an Electoral (Amendment) Bill was going through this House it was agreed that a motion would be moved at this stage to allow it to be dealt with in a certain way. The Opposition had no objection to this being done. This is exactly similar to the motion passed in relation to the Electoral (Amendment) Bill, 1968 and I think it will facilitate a reasonable discussion on the amendments.

Mr. Molloy

The motion proposed by the Minister, I understand, allows the House to discuss each constituency as it appears on the Schedule and each constituency will be voted separately. I would like clarification from the Chair as to what practice will be followed when the amendments to that Schedule are being discussed.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

Is the Deputy looking for that information now or will he wait until the Schedule is dealt with?

Mr. Molloy

I shall wait until the Schedule is reached. When we reach the amendments?

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

Yes.

Mr. Tully

Have we cleared up what is happening, because this is exactly the same procedure as the last time? Is Deputy Molloy satisfied with it?

Mr. Molloy

Yes, the motion is agreed. As a matter of fact, I requested the Minister's Whip's office to put forward such a motion.

Mr. Tully

Possibly the Whip did not think it necessary because he knew we would be doing it anyway. You, a Leas-Cheann Comhairle, have the order in which discussion of the amendments will take place. Does Deputy Molloy want that now? Is that what he is asking for?

Mr. Molloy

No. The Chair has said it will give an explanation in relation to the manner in which amendments will be dealt with when we come to the Schedule.

Mr. Tully

I should like to be very clear so that there will be no question later on that the matter was not dealt with in the way in which it should be dealt with. I would prefer to see these things cleared up before we get under way. Some people have a habit of forgetting things and claiming that things were said or done which, in fact, were not said or done. I would hate that to happen on this Bill because I know it is not going to be an acrimonious Bill.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

Deputy Molloy is asking, as the Chair understands it, about the entries in the Schedule. As the Deputy knows, there is a grouping of the amendments which are cognate or related. They will be disposed of, and then each entry in the Schedule will be dealt with like a section in a Bill in Committee.

Mr. Molloy

Is the Chair suggesting the amendments will be grouped?

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

Yes.

Mr. Tully

Some of them.

Mr. Molloy

Are we going to have clarification on that when we reach the Schedule? The Minister seems to want everything cleared before we preceed to section 1 of the Bill.

Mr. Tully

Perhaps it would help matters if the Leas-Cheann Comhairle would read out how the whole thing is proposed to be taken. I can see great difficulty later on if Deputy Molloy wants to go back on something which has already been dealt with.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

Each entry will be dealt with as if it were a section of a Bill, and the amendments will be disposed of as they come up. There is a grouping of amendments for discussion purposes. I am sure the Deputy has been made aware of that.

Mr. Molloy

Yes, but I would like to know from the Chair when it is going to indicate to the House what the grouping is.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

What the Chair proposes to do is to indicate at the start of the Schedule what the grouping of the amendments is to be.

Mr. Molloy

I am prepared to accept that, but the Minister seems to have some doubt.

Mr. Tully

I have no doubt, as long as we are quite clear that what we did before is being done this time. I do not know whether Deputy Molloy was in the House at the time, but there was a considerable amount of to-ing and fro-ing about the matter. If Deputy Molloy is now satisfied that the procedure which was adopted the last time can be adopted again, then I see no reason why we should not go ahead with the Committee Stage of the Bill.

Mr. Molloy

I am satisfied with the motion as put before the House; there is no objection to that. I understand that on the last occasion when the Committee Stage of an Electoral (Amendment) Bill similar to this was being discussed in 1969, the Ceann Comhairle informed the House in the following manner, and I quote from column 272, Volume 238, of the Official Report of 5th February, 1969:

An Ceann Comhairle: When suggesting changes in the boundaries of a particular constituency under consideration Members will be allowed to deal with changes in other constituencies with which the constituency under consideration forms a group. This would be in accordance with the normal rules of debate and, consequently, would not need to be dealt with by a special Order of the House.

I take it that position still obtains and will obtain throughout this debate.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

It is the same procedure that is being adopted.

Mr. Molloy

In order to clarify the position of a Deputy discussing a constituency, shall he be entitled to refer to other constituencies which would be affected by the changes proposed?

Mr. Tully

Which constituencies are affected?

Mr. Molloy

I would ask that the position be cleared up before we commence further discussion of this Bill. It is obvious that there will be difficulty. I take it that the Chair is indicating to the House that the Chair is prepared to deal leniently with Deputies discussing particular constituencies and to recognise that it will be necessary for them to refer to other constituencies following the changes proposed in any particular constituency under discussion. We will not adopt too rigid an attitude on this if that proposal is accepted.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

The position is that the Chair intended to indicate that when we reached the Schedule. However, the Chair hopes that there will not be widespread duplication in debate in regard to these matters.

Motion agreed to.