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Dáil Éireann debate -
Tuesday, 5 Mar 1974

Vol. 270 No. 12

Private Members' Business. - Farm Income: Motion.

I move:

That Dáil Éireann deplores the serious decline in farm income which has been aggravated by the enormous increases in farming costs.

I am moving this motion on behalf of my party, Fianna Fáil. It is a very serious motion and provides the House with an opportunity of discussing the many serious problems those involved in farming have to face today. It is hoped that as a result of this discussion the great lack of confidence existing in so many sectors of agriculture will be set aside, that those lacking confidence will be given confidence and those faced with seemingly insurmountable problems will be given the courage to meet these problems and deal with them effectively. I hope that nothing but good will emanate from this short discussion which we in Fianna Fáil are forcing on the Government by this motion in Private Members' time.

One must ask oneself whether the Government believe that there has been a serious decline in farm income and that it has been greatly aggravated by the enormous increases in farming costs. If the Government agree that such is the case they must naturally also agree that a public debate of this nature can be of immense help to all involved. I believe this three-hour debate will serve its purpose and I suggest that if the Government are serious in their intentions the many elected representatives on all sides of the House who feel they ahve a contribution to make on agriculture under existing circumstances, should have the opportunity of making it and that the adjourned debate on the Estimate for the Department of Agriculture and Fisheries begun last November should be resumed.

I should like it to be clearly understood that this discussion is not a voluntary one so far as the Labour-Fine Gael Government are concerned. It appears we are to be denied a voluntary debate on agriculture until the adjourned debate on the Estimate is resumed. I am sure this motion will be regarded by the public at large as one deserving more than three hours. Certainly, people are already beginning to ask why the Government are refusing to have an agricultural discussion in Dáil Éireann.

In the recent debate on the energy crisis motion—tabled by Fianna Fáil but amended by Labour and Fine Gael to suit themselves by giving them the right to move it—many people wondered why nobody on the Government side spoke on agriculture. Many wondered why the Taoiseach himself did not take part in such a serious debate or, in his absence, why the Minister for Agriculture and Fisheries did not become involved. That motion was certainly looked upon before and after the discussion as the joke of the year but, unfortunately, it was a very sick joke. It was regarded by the farming community particularly with great suspicion, as just another Coalition gimmick and was further evidence to many of the ostrich-like position of the Government, hiding their heads in the sand hoping everything will right itself in time.

It was very noticeable that in that recent debate all the speakers from the Labour and Fine Gael benches were from Dublin except the Minister for Transport and Power, who is from Cork city. This adds further to the genuine belief of many that there is no real feeling of sympathy or understanding for the farming family in the present Coalition Government and that it is an urban minded, trade union dominated Administration. Many believe the Government are totally unaware that 80 per cent of our farmers are engaged in a grinding struggle to win a livelihood from small farms which are barely economic. Many believe that Labour and Fine Gael are not dedicating themselves to fighting the case of the Irish small farmer in the EEC councils or anywhere else.

One can discuss the fall in farmers' income under two headings. There is the rising cost of necessary farm inputs such as feedingstuff, fertilisers, agro-chemicals like sprays, insecticides, herbicides, fuel and oil, agricultural machinery and spares and packaged materials and farm buildings. As well as the exorbitant price of these inputs there is the greater concern of guaranteeing adequate supplies of them. If the manner in which the Government have handled the shortage of oil in recent times is any guide, God help the farmers if other inputs are placed on the same scarce footing. Because of the vast increases in farm production costs, especially of purchased or bought in feed, the continued expansion of Irish agriculture is in jeopardy. One must look at the reduced returns from the market as well as the more expensive inputs. One has reduced returns on the outputs or products. This is particularly true in regard to cattle and pigs. The price of Irish bacon on the UK market was recently reduced by £50 per ton. At present the Irish farmer is in a vicious circle of increased costs and reduced returns.

We are in a time of tremendous world uncertainty in regard to food production and supplies and it therefore behoves Irish agriculture to take every precaution to maintain growth. This will entail guaranteeing supplies of essential inputs, facilitating necessary farming investment, processing into a diversified product range and obtaining markets for products at most remunerative prices. The increases in farming costs have given rise to extreme dissatisfaction and grave worry. There has been an alarming and unprecedented increase in the cost of essential farm inputs in recent months and while this development is related to across-the-board inflation in national economies it has been compounded as we know by international shortages in essential agricultural inputs, especially animal feedingstuffs and the energy crisis resulting in reduced availability of oil-dependent fertilisers.

We have had frightening and staggering increases in the fertiliser area, up to 40 per cent on compound fertilisers starting right now. The price of the 16 per cent superphosphate is up by 80 to 100 per cent. I see that Nítrigin Éireann have been given permission to increase the price of the nitrogenous CAN by 26 per cent and ammonia by 33 per cent. When the Minister is contributing to this debate I should be grateful, as many Deputies would be, if he would let us know what he and the Government did about the stockpiling which many allege took place before the increased prices were announced.

I think it is fair to say that the Minister and the Government are on record as denying that any stockpiling took place. Now, I gather there is an about-turn on their part and they say they are having an investigation or inquiry into the allegations being made. In that context I am sure the Minister will agree that the method of selling fertilisers calls for very serious examination right now if he is at all perturbed by charges of stockpiling until prices were increased. Sales of fertilisers are continuing on the basis that the price to be charged will be that ruling on the date of delivery.

The Government allowed the decontrolling of the prices of animal feeds. This resulted in sharp increases in the price of compounds by some manufacturers. One of the biggest manufacturers, whom everybody knows, is charging twice as much as some of the other co-ops. This has resulted in consternation in the market. What are the Government doing about this situation? What are they doing about maize which is currently costing about £70 a ton from the silo? What did this maize cost before going into the silo? Is the Minister satisfied that a fair margin of profit was made in this instance? What is the Minister doing about the merchants and middlemen who are at present selling beet pulp at £80 a ton, the same beet pulp which they bought for around £18 a ton? What has the Minister to say about the margin of profit which is being made here? What has the Minister done about the identification necessary to distinguish between fertilisers manufactured from raw materials not subject to price increases and those which are? The manufacturers when asked said there were technical difficulties involved in their factories. Does the Minister know what these technical difficulties are? If he does, will he please let us know?

The Minister is on record as saying, according to The Irish Times dated 2nd February, that the Irish fertiliser industry would help farmers by absorbing as much of the cost increases caused by the oil crisis as the industry could bear in the present circumstances. What is he doing about that? Is he doing anything about cheap imports, either by waiving import duties, issuing duty free licences or giving a special fertiliser subsidy to cushion the farmer against higher costs? In terms of advising farmers not to cut down in nitrogen application it is noteworthy to note that the State-owned Nitrigin Éireann were allowed a 26 per cent increase in their fertiliser CAN.

People are very anxious to know what will be done about the increased cost in feedingstuffs and the deleterious effects on pig and poultry production where 80 per cent of the cost is due to feeding. Those directly involved, especially those small farmers who have in the past depended on the income from their efforts at pig and poultry production to see them through, want to know what their future will be. The question to be asked and answered now is: what are the Government doing or what can they do to protect our pig and poultry industries? In 1973 these industries contributed to the national economic out-turn. Any adverse effect on these two closely associated industries is of major national significance.

According to statistics recently released, the first ominous signs of a serious decline in pig production can be seen. The number of pigs received at bacon factories shows a drop of 217,903 or almost 10 per cent of the 2,196,526 pigs sent to the bacon factories since 1972. There has been a dramatic increase in the number of sows slaughtered in our bacon factories in recent times. The number of sows slaughtered in the latter part of January was more than double those slaughtered at the same time last year. This is positive proof that the recent large increases in the cost of feedingstuffs are beginning to have their effect. What will the trend be for the remainder of 1974? What steps will be taken by the Government to prevent the pig and poultry industries from being wiped out completely? The man who wants to know most, as I have already said, is the small farmer who is dependent on his income from these industries.

It is interesting to note that the Minister recently admitted, as a result of many questions in the House from members of my party, that a difficult situation for our pig industry has developed over recent weeks. This was due, on the one hand, to the rise in the feed prices and, on the other, to the downward fluctuations in pig meat prices on our main export market. Commenting on what the Minister said, that this difficult situation for our pig industry has developed over recent weeks, I feel that he is being less than honest with us if he expects us to believe that this crisis has only now developed.

I have been reliably informed by my sources, who might not be as in touch with the day-to-day situation as the Minister's sources should be, that the number of fat sows being slaughtered at present is in the region of 3,300 per week, whereas under normal circumstances there would be between 1,000 and 1,200 sows slaughtered per week. Up to 50 per cent of the sows being slaughtered at McCairns pig factory in Monaghan are heavy in pig and even live bonhams have been born. I was told by a person who is involved in pig production that at the present cost of feedingstuffs, a farmer is losing £4.90 or £5 per pig between birth and slaughter.

In a recent statement the Minister said that the present high prices for feed were worldwide and pig producers in Northern Ireland and Britain had been similarly affected. He also said that fluctuation in pig prices were to be expected in the freer trade conditions obtaining in the European Economic Community. The price rise of £13 per ton adds about £3.50 to the cost of producing a bacon pig. Irish bacon is now £650 a ton at Smithfield but before Christmas it was in the region of £680. When dealing with the fluctuations in pig prices the Minister said such fluctuations also occurred last year but that on the whole that year was a profitable one for pig producers. He said also that in those circumstances it was important for pig producers to stay in the business and refrain from selling off more sows to factories as some appeared to have been doing. He also said that it should be accepted that periods of reduced profitability must be balanced against these when profits were good.

I accept that 1973 was a good year for those involved in pig and poultry production. I have been reliably told that the profits made for 1973 were hardly enough to cover the losses sustained in the month of January, 1974. The Minister says it is important that pig producers should stay in the business but the smaller farmer involved in pig production has no chance whatsoever of being able to stay in the business and he is already, if not gone out of the business completely, certainly on the way out. Is the Minister aware that as late as this week we had pig producers in it at a big level saying that they had no option but to stay in the business and their only reason for doing so was a salvage operation for them, an effort to try to salvage as much as possible out of their investment to date.

If the Minister, as he says, wants us to believe that the recent sales of sows are partly due to current good demand and prices for sows for special markets and for processing, and that they do not necessarily indicate any significant movement out of pig production, then I would like the Minister to enlarge on this statement considerably. I would like the Minister to give us his comprehensive views as to the percentage of sows being sold to factories for the reasons he states as against the percentage of sows sold to factories, many of them very heavy in young, for the reasons I state.

I know I am right because the present price of sows is £15 to £16 per cwt, whereas in January, 1973, fat sows were £15 to £17 per cwt and despite the fact that we have had such staggering increases in feeding stuffs I cannot understand why the Minister says that people are selling sows partly due to the current good demand in prices for them. This is not so. Farmers are now getting out of pigs and also out of poultry.

It costs about 7½ cwt to produce a bacon pig of 190 lbs liveweight and the present cost of feedstuffs alone is more than what the finished bacon is worth. In normal conditions a pig farmer would be losing £5 per head and if the only advice the Minister can give to farmers is to hang on, to stay in pigs and stick together, it is pretty poor advice to people who cannot possibly carry on in pigs. Unless bacon prices rise or feeding prices fall there will be no export of bacon in a few month's time.

I am convinced that the decontrol of foodstuff prices was a disaster. At the time two or three months ago there was a demand for an increase of £13 per ton and members of our farming organisations thought, we are told by the Minister, that if decontrol were introduced competition would keep the increase to about £5 per ton but the facts are that practically all the private companies took all the full £13 per ton rise. Indeed, if one wants to read the recent report of the Occasional Paper No. 11, on the animal feedstuffs industry in Ireland, one will see that the first three or four pages show that a rise was necessary on only two out of four counts and that the rise should have been about £6 per ton and not the £13 per ton which took place. The co-operatives as we know, took only between £5 and £8 per ton. According to the first four pages of this report, pig rations varied by as much as £20 to £25 per ton between different parts of the country.

As we are talking about different parts of the country, I should like the Minister to give us an explanation as to why County Louth has the dearest charges of all. At present I cannot get my hands on an up-to-date price list of foods but I know that dried barley from the silos is £65 per ton and that pig rations vary from £70 to £90 per ton, but the co-ops are from £70 to £75 per ton and the best of the private men are about £85 per ton. If these price ranges are the result of decontrol, it is obvious that this action taken by the Government was nothing other than panic action which has resulted in chaos in the industry, chaos from which it will take a supreme effort to recover. We will have many who will not be able to stay in the business until things begin to brighten up again.

The one output sector where falling prices have eroded farmer confidence is that of cattle. We know that cattle prices have reverted to their normal seasonal low of last winter and that this period of low prices has been greatly aggravated by a scarcity of feedingstuffs due to two reasons. The first reason is the inflated costs of compound feeds and the second is the very poor quality of hay because of the wet summer, something which I do not blame on the Minister.

That is surprising.

In our environment it is naturally essential to take every step possible to instil farmer confidence in cattle production, to maintain the 8 per cent growth in cattle numbers we had in the last year. In this context one can justifiably attack the Government, and the Minister for Agriculture and Fisheries, who knew last August that we had a record number of cattle of all ages and also the amount of good quality fodder conserved was less than usual. Yet, there was a silence from the Minister, and from his Departmental officials as to the action that should be taken to prevent the situation which we now find ourselves in with regard to losing cattle through malnutrition as a result of lack of fodder.

It is widely reported that there are many deaths of cattle at present and that there will be heavy losses in the next four to six weeks unless our good God is kind to us weatherwise. I should like to hear from the Minister what statistics are available to him with regard to the situation as it is. I hope the Minister will not be offended if I say to him, and to his officials, that his officials were a little unwise——

We ought not to reflect upon officials at all. The Minister, as head of his Department, is the person responsible and it is not in order to refer to officials or anybody outside this House.

And the Minister has a good broad back.

The Minister, and those who were advising him, were unwise to have rushed in to deny that the deaths of cattle were taking place when these allegations were first made. They should have kept their options open for what now seems to be an uncertainty.

The Minister should let us know what the official view is with regard to the prospects of shortages or possibly the rationing of milk for liquid consumption next winter. Recently the chairman of the National Dairy Council said that the prospects of escalation of the problems of obtaining sufficient supplies of winter milk for liquid consumption was a distinct cause of worry to the dairy industry and that it was most essential that steps should be taken immediately to find a solution to this problem. I hope that the Minister will tell us what steps are being taken to ensure that there will be a plentiful supply of milk for 1974.

We must make this country more self-sufficient in feed grains for a number of reasons. The current high prices for animal feeds, soya beans at £150 per ton, maize at £70 per ton, feed barley has jumped in price by 50 to 60 per cent in the past few months, is an adequate enough reason for striving towards this goal. More critical than the high prices is the restricted availability of some traditional imported animal feedingstuffs. Indeed, we well remember the United States placing the embargo on soya beans last summer. Greater domestic production of feeding grain would render us independent of international supply and demand fluctuations. In this context one could fairly and justifiably criticise the Minister and the Government for not doing something more positive, far more positive, about exhorting and encouraging Irish farmers to increase their cereal acreage.

Another farming enterprise about which we need to have greater confidence is also a tillage crop—sugar beet. The growers are gravely concerned about the future of the industry. Naturally they are worried about the escalation of production costs mainly arising from increases in fertiliser and transport and other inputs. They are also worried about the absence of a clear-cut policy on the sugar beet A quota. As I have already said, they are not only worried but annoyed about the fact that the merchant middlemen have made all the money in selling the molassed beet pulp at very high prices—they have already said up to £80 per ton. I should like the Minister to inform the House what his intentions are with regard to his responsibility to restore and instil the confidence which is required in the sugar beet area of operations.

I should also like to ask the Minister whether it is a fact that, from now on, fertiliser manufacturers need only give two weeks' notice of price increases to his colleague, the Minister for Industry and Commerce. I should like to know whether we can expect, in the immediate or near future, the decontrol of fertiliser prices in the same way as we have had the decontrol of animal feedingstuff prices. Production costs in agriculture certainly show the impact of inflation, the results of the oil crisis, and the general upward spiral of commodity costs. The price of compound fertilisers has doubled and the cost of nitrogen has increased by well over 50 per cent. It is estimated that the cost of production of barley and wheat will increase by 30 per cent and that the cost of production of beet will increase by at least 20 per cent.

The dairy industry, which looked so healthy 12 months ago or so, is also now caught in the squeeze between declining calf and culled cow prices and increased costs of fertilisers, fuel and all the basic supplies. As if all these difficulties were not enough, we have added to them the current bank interest rate of 15 per cent. These are all contributing towards depressed profits in the beef trade and are proving a real discouragement to farmers with development plans. We know that farmers in other parts of the EEC have problems similar to ours and for that reason we should not allow undue despondency to permeate Irish agriculture. We must lose no opportunity whatsoever of getting maximum price increases. We must strive hard for the removal of the EEC difficulties under which we labour. We must pay much more attention to every detail of production efficiency.

We believe that the EEC Commission's proposals for agricultural price increases at 7 per cent for the coming year are not enough. They are certainly not enough to meet the increases in the farmers working and living costs. We believe that with inflation in Europe probably exceeding 15 per cent farmers have every reason to strive harder to get a better percentage increase for themselves. In the situation as we find it in the country today we believe that the Government must show considerably more activity in pressing for the removal or at least a modification of monetary compensation payments. We know that these levies will eventually cripple our big industries, damage beef production and endanger development in dairying.

The current wave of cost increases clearly indicates to us the grave need for watching our production costs and production efficiency in all aspects of farming. I believe this applies as much to dairying, which has been having a fairly good time, as to beef production, which needs a thorough re-examination if it is to return to acceptable profits. We believe that Irish farming could thrive and could overcome the many seeming insurmountable difficulties facing it. Vigilance at all levels is the price of success.

I should like to make a few comments in connection with a most unusual practice which has cropped up in this Dáil, a practice which to my knowledge is new and recent, that is, during Private Members' Time an amendment being tabled on the Clár in the name of the Minister for Agriculture and Fisheries. In compliance with Standing Orders, Sir, I am fully aware that this would not have been allowed by your good self if it were a direct negative to the motion on the Order Paper in my name. If the Minister and the Government want to have a discussion on agriculture we on this side of the House are ready to facilitate them at all times.

In my opening remarks I suggested that the adjourned debate on the Estimate for the Department should be resumed immediately. The many Deputies on all sides of the House who feel they have something important to contribute on agriculture, because of the difficult circumstances in which we find it today, would welcome the Minister if he returned to the House and resumed that debate. It would not then be necessary for the Minister, or those prompting him in his parliamentary parties, to table this amendment which I understand, Sir—I am open to correction by your good self on this—denies me the opportunity of having my motion voted on by Members. This is sharp practice. I know the Minister would not personally be responsible for this but it is very sharp practice. If we are to have Private Members' Time—as we are fully entitled to have it and will have it—I would respectfully suggest to the Minister and his parties that they should allow Members to introduce their Private Members' Motions, discuss them as best we can from all sides of the House, and then make a decision on them with none of this shilly-shallying and hiding behind amendments. If the Government are afraid to admit that farming conditions are not as good as they would like them to be, mainly as a result of actions of their own, in some instances, and, as I said before, lack of action in other instances, then let them hear the charges made against them. They have the manpower, or the footpower, to walk us into the lobbies and out-vote us. I do not think the Minister and the parties behind him will gain anything by this shoddy introduction of an amendment to a Private Members' motion.

I second the motion.

Does the Deputy wish to speak now?

I shall speak later.

The motion tabled by Deputy G. Collins reads as follows:

That Dáil Éireann deplores the serious decline in farm income which has been aggravated by the enormous increases in farming costs.

To that motion I move the following amendment:

To delete all words after "Dáil Éireann" and to insert the following: "notes that, even allowing for very much greater input costs, farm incomes rose substantially during 1973 but recognises that there have been cases where individual farmers have suffered losses arising from a variety of circumstances in recent months".

The Minister is talking through his hat.

We have had a very good debate so far. Deputy G. Collins spoke for 40 minutes without interruptions of any kind. Let us have a similar hearing for the Minister.

This amendment gives the factual position we should be discussing if a discussion is to be helpful. That is the reason for the amendment. It is not intended to sidestep the rules of the House but to give the House a factual basis for discussion.

Deputy Collins's motion is couched in language deliberately intended to misrepresent the position of farming. It is intended to undermine the confidence of farmers, big and small. It is particularly intended to mislead the smaller farmer. It is well known that Deputy Collins has no genuine concern for farmers, either big or small.

The Minister should speak for himself.

He is, however, interested in undermining the smaller farmer. He could not care less if the small farmers were up to their tonsils in trouble. Everybody knows that. What he does care about is votes and he knows the smaller farmers have a great many more votes than the bigger farmers. That is why he concentrates on the small farmers. I would like now to give Deputy Collins a little bit of advice.

I hope it will be better than the advice the Minister gave the farmers.

From time to time Deputy Collins has given me advice and he must listen now to a little bit of advice from me. I would ask him to cast his mind back to the recent by-election in Monaghan, a constituency of small farmers. He tried all these tactics out in Monaghan. He used all the false propaganda he could think up, but he failed to deceive the hardheaded farmers of Monaghan.

The Monaghan by-election is not much to crow about now.

The farmers of Monaghan gave Deputy Collins his answer because they knew the difference. Deputy Collins devoted a good deal of time to pigs and pig feed. Everybody knows that Monaghan is one of the counties that depends on the income from pigs. These are the facts Deputy Collins will have to face up to. Everybody knows he is not the least bit genuine in this motion and that is why I put down the amendment.

Most people know Deputy Collins. The few who do not know him know the history of Fianna Fáil. They know that Fianna Fáil never had a policy for rural Ireland. They know that in every year they spent in office they drove tens of thousands of farmers from the land.

How did they stop emigration?

Every time I met the farmers they thank Heaven they have seen the last of Fianna Fáil.

Deputies

Oh!

They tell me they know they now have a Government that cares and they now have a Minister who cares. They know that if they are in trouble they can come to see the Minister.

Deputies

Hear, hear.

They know they can discuss their problems with him and get a fair hearing. What the farmers want is fair play and so long as I am in office they will get fair play. They will get a sympathetic hearing if they are in trouble. If I have advice to give them I give it. Since we took office 12 months ago we have done everything possible at home and abroad to help our farmers. If they were in difficulties we tried to get them out of them and, if they were not in difficulties, we tried to improve their position. The farmers know that. They know they can come and speak to me at any time. I frequently discuss their problems with them.

Deputy Collins says that last August I knew we had had a bad summer, the hay was bad, fodder was in short supply and there was a big number of cattle. He wanted to know what I did about it, what advice I gave the farmers. Mark you, Deputy Collins could not give the farmers a great deal of advice that would not mislead them. I did not mislead them. I told them that, if certain things happened, cattle prices would drop by more than £20 a head. I was publicly attacked for doing that. I was told it was a wrong thing to do because it might generate panic selling. That danger is always there. I believed I had a duty to warn the farmers that if certain things happened this would be the outcome of it. Unfortunately, I was right. I could have been wrong. It is a dangerous thing to make forecasts at this time and to give advice; everybody who has any experience of farming knows that it is a dangerous exercise. However, there are times when one has to take a chance in order to assist that section of the community for which one is particularly responsible. I took that chance. I fear greatly, from the outcome, that the advice was not taken; in fact, I know it was not taken. I know many farmers did not sell cattle that were ready to be sold, which they could have sold for at least £18 a cwt. They kept them until they ate some of the scarce fodder to which Deputy G. Collins referred and then sold them at lower prices. These are the unfortunate aspects of the business but I think it was just a case where the farmers expected too much.

While I am on the cattle and beef end of the business, I suppose I had better stay with it for the moment. Everybody knows that farmers lost money if they were depending entirely on beef farming. Everybody knows the reason and nobody knows it better than Deputy J. Gibbons who intervened a few moments ago. He knows that farmers paid exceptionally high prices for cattle last spring; some of them paid as much as £26 a cwt. All I can say is that that was a foolish exercise when the farmers knew that the intervention price for prime cattle was approximately £16 a cwt. If beef producers want to make sure that they are not going to lose heavily in the future they must have regard to what will be the intervention price at the end of the year when, normally, cattle are going out in large numbers. That is the time we are likely to reach intervention if we are going to reach it at all. They paid too much for cattle and they kept them too long expecting too much.

It is all the farmers' fault.

Surely they cannot blame the Minister for Agriculture and Fisheries for doing this sort of exercise.

The Minister is misrepresenting the farmers.

The Minister without interruption, please.

They are free people; they are judges of their business and, if they are not, they should be. Anybody in business today has to be the judge of his business. Those of us who campaigned to get farmers in this country into the EEC never told them that they were going into Utopian conditions. They were told by everybody that there was an enormous market opening up to them, that there were great opportunities but they were going to meet fierce competition. They are meeting fierce competition but, on the whole, farmers have done exceedingly well during the past year.

I assure the Minister they have not.

Deputy J. Gibbons will get an opportunity to speak later on. Deputy J. Gibbons is not serious, of course, when he says that.

Deputy J. Gibbons will be afforded an opportunity to speak if he so desires. I should be grateful if he would cease interrupting.

(Interruptions.)

The Chair is seeking to restore order.

I do not have to over-emphasise this position because all the statistics are there to support what I say—that there was a substantial rise in farm incomes in 1973. Expressed in money terms, the increase was at a record level and I challenge Deputy J. Gibbons or anybody else in the House to contradict that.

The Minister is talking about dairy farms only.

I am talking about the whole of the industry, across the board.

(Interruptions.)

Deputy J. Gibbons will have his half hour to speak if he so desires and the Chair will ensure that he speaks without interruption.

I do not want to misrepresent the position. I am saying, taken as a whole, farmers' incomes— all farmers' incomes included—expressed in money terms reached a record increase last year.

Brother, wait until that hits the headline.

I want that to get the headline, as Deputy J. Gibbons says. The value of farm output rose from £478 million in 1972 to £600 million in 1973. That is output. Of course, I am not taking from anything Fianna Fáil did; I know that you do not create instant miracles in agriculture and in farming generally. I have not detracted from anything that my predecessor in office did; I am not foolish enough. I am too long in this game to pretend that I can be responsible for any instant results of this kind.

There are certain things for which I share the credit while not detracting from what my predecessor in office did. I share the credit with officials who have been wrongly criticised, with everybody concerned in agricultural production from the Minister down to the farmer and from the farmer back through the processor and on to the consumer's plate. Unless we have the fullest co-operation from and team work with all those people we cannot get maximum benefit for farmers. Those are the means I try to use to get the maximum benefit at all times. I am very proud to say, and very happy to feel, that there never was a time in the history of this country when there was a greater measure of co-operation and team work in efforts to improve farmers' positions in Ireland. To say that we are not concerned about those areas of agriculture that are in some difficulty is utter and absolute nonsense because we have done everything possible to improve the position of farmers in those difficult areas.

Everybody seems to want to get me away from milk but I have no intention of so doing because the picture there is too good. It is right to say that never have they had as good a year as 1973. They got an increase in milk price of approximately 4½p. Now, everybody knows it would take ten years of Fianna Fáil in office to get that much of an increase. One could go back over ten years before one could pick up that sort of money because that is equal to 10p and we all know what the farmers had to do to get a 1p increase in the price of milk in the past. They had to march; they had to sit on the steps here, there and elsewhere——

(Interruptions.)

They got it without any fight, without any struggle and with the full co-operation and assistance of everybody concerned.

The Minister knows that is not right.

The Minister said it without a blush.

When Fianna Fáil start to dish it out in this House, I am sorry that I have to dish it back. But I know that there is no sincerity behind this motion and, knowing that, I have to deal a few blows back like the blows that have been dealt at me, quite unjustly. As I have said, they got 4½ increase in the price of milk last year.

There was an enormous increase in the price of calves. If one wanted to express the value of the increase in the price of calves one could add another 2½p to 3p to the price of the milk.

Fifteen quid now.

I think dairy farmers are fully appreciative of this.

(Interruptions.)

Deputies are unfairly taking up the Minister's time.

In this unfortunate industry of which we are speaking there was an increase of 35 million gallons in milk production. There was an increase in cow numbers of 200,000. This is the depressed industry that we are moaning and wailing about. There is nothing to moan or wail about, and prophets of doom will not be listened to because the people in milk production know what they have got; they are delighted with themselves and extremely satisfied.

It is fair to say that in recent times profits are nothing like what they were but milk production has been at its lowest. In Brussels at present we are talking about additional price increases. I am hopeful that the outcome this year will be good. Everything is not in our favour. We are doing what we can on our part to get as large an increase as we can for the dairy farmers. I appreciate that liquid milk producers in the Dublin and Cork areas have been affected by the increases in the cost of feeding concentrates. I realise that they will have to be compensated for this.

When my opponents across the floor of the House are throwing mud at me for my failures and quoting the chairman of the milk board talking about a milk famine and rationing it must be remembered that for 12 months before I came into office there was an application for a price increase for milk producers but they did not get anything. I had to give them two price increases, one a month after the other—a total of 5¾p. I restored the differential that had been gone for a long time. It should not be pretended that I did nothing for the winter milk producers in the Dublin and Cork areas. I was very concerned about them. Their time is coming again, just as the time is coming for increases for people producing milk for processing. There is no neglect of them. I would like everybody to know that.

I am concerned about anybody who is not doing well in any branch of farming and I am anxious to help him. With regard to sheep, I defy contradiction that last year was the best year in the history of this country for sheep. I do not want to be boasting but I claim a certain amount of credit for keeping the French market open. I approached this problem on many occasions with the French Minister and in the Council of Ministers in Brussels. I explained our problems. We kept the market open and prices were never as good. It is fair to say that the return from sheep last year increased by about 50 per cent. That is an enormous increase. The figures are there to show this. I am including in this figure wool prices as well as the prices of lamb and mutton. This is another area where I think I have done a good deal to destroy the picture which has been painted by the proposer of this motion.

I am not avoiding the areas which have not done so well. We will talk about cereals next. There was a 50 per cent increase in the price of cereals. Nobody will attempt to deny that. If anybody does so, I will give figures. The price of cereals increased by approximately 50 per cent.

Is the Minister inviting comment?

I am sure I will get comment from Deputy J. Gibbons afterwards. Barley was sold from the combine at £28 per ton in 1972. It was freely sold at £44 per ton in 1973. The figures speak for themselves. There was a decline in wheat production but an increase in the value of output. The increase was approximately 20 per cent which is enormous having regard to the fact that output was down substantially. For the first time in ten years there was an increase in the potato crop. Prices dropped substantially because the prices in the previous year were outlandishly high. People went into potato production and over-produced. In case anything went seriously wrong, I put a floor on the price of potatoes and the producers were pleased.

Coming now to pigs and feedingstuffs, I wish to say that the figures for 1973 indicate that it was a year of profit for pig producers, taking the years as a whole. There were two months in 1973 when the profit was quite low. Everyone admits that. That happened in June and July. Prices recovered again and it was not until late December that the industry got into trouble. There were serious price increases, some over-production and difficulties because of the state of the British economy and because we were facing unusual competition on the British market.

Much comment has been made about feedingstuffs. It has been said that people were making fantastic profits and the farmers were suffering unfair competition because of feedingstuff prices. The price of sow and weaner rations in Ireland is £82.80 per ton. In Northern Ireland the price is £92.05 per ton, while in England the price is £87.13 per ton. Everybody must admit that we have a substantial advantage in regard to sow and weaner ration prices. The price for pig-fattening ration per ton is £79.70 here; in Northern Ireland, it is £83.92 and in England £83.71. These are the actual figures. We have a substantial advantage here also.

Speaking about poultry the layers' ration is priced at £86.34 per ton here. In Northern Ireland the price is £84.92. Again we have an advantage. While prices are high here—and we all regret that —if the people providing feedingstuffs here are making huge profits, what are the profits like in Northern Ireland and in England? There is a free movement of cereals between all these areas. There is nothing one can do about it.

Deputy G. Collins spoke about the need for us to grow more grain in order to meet our own requirements. I agree with the Deputy on that point. I have said so on numerous occasions. The Deputy blames me for not having more cereals grown last year even though the cereals were in the ground when I took office. I do not want to blame Deputy J. Gibbons.

I had a very good crop.

The Deputy did it all himself. It is foolish for Deputy G. Collins to blame me because we had not planted more grain in the ground last year. Neither will I accept the blame this year if the farmers do not do what I suggest to them and sow grain.

They will plant because they are not getting the price for the cattle any more.

Farmers should grow more grain. I never advised farmers to go all out on beef production. I told them to expand milk production and to grow grain and to increase the grain production. They should not concentrate on beef alone. Deputy G. Collins is not justified in what he says about the midland ranchers. They are indispensable to the small farmers and to the dairy farmers because they take their calves and their stores from them. I care about all farmers, while Deputy G. Collins pretends he does not care for anybody except the very small farmers. We must be concerned about the small farmers more than about the bigger farmers. They need all the help they can get to stay in business, and the more of them that can stay in business the better I will like it.

What are we doing about the pig situation? What we can do is very limited. As I said, we have feeding stuff prices at the lowest that they can be got. The Deputy talked about the way it is being decontrolled. Of course, it must be decontrolled but it was decontrolled after full discussion with the people concerned. The farmers were brought in and they were asked if they thought it was the right thing to do. We believe in discussing these things with farmers and asking them what they want. They felt competition would take over, and to an extent it has taken over, and the co-ops run by farmers have kept their prices down to a minimum. The increase they brought in was not much more than half what the other merchants added to the price of feedingstuffs There is not much one can do in relation to feedingstuffs because prices are going to be high in any case. We have done and are doing what we can about MCAs. Remember we are working an agreement that was negotiated not by me—and I am not saying my predecessor did a bad job; I think he did a reasonably good job having regard to——

I intervene to advise the Minister that he has one minute left.

All I can say is that to relieve us in this area we have been promised by the Commissioner that he will do everything possible without upsetting completely the whole monetary compensatory amount system. If he does, it will mean about £2.50 a pig, and I think it will take farmers out of a loss situation. I cannot hold out any bright hopes, but I would ask Deputy Collins to try to get away from the insularity of outlook that he has from Abbeyfeale and realise now that we are not a remote island on the perimiter of Europe. We are part of Europe; we have to do the best we can there, and that is what we are doing. However, as regards the farmers of this country, I consult them, I discuss their problems with them and at all times I want to do that and to give them the maximum assistance. I am sorry I have not more time because there are many more things I wanted to deal with.

I formally second the amendment.

In seconding the motion, I wish to protest in the strongest possible way at the failure of the Government to realise the terrible state of farm incomes which have been declining over the past six months or so. I notice that in his amendment the Minister stated he recognises that there have been cases where individual farmers have suffered losses. It appears that he is referring mainly to small farmers when he refers to individual farmers. He should realise that the vast bulk of farmers in this country are in the small farm category. These people must be looked after because they have to specialise in milk, beef or grain; they cannot swing overnight from one item of production into another. The Minister referred to the Monaghan by-election but he can rest assured that it was not the small farmers of Monaghan that let Fianna Fáil down. He must also bear in mind that there is a substantial drop in farm incomes since last November.

I believe one of the principal reasons why the Government would not allow Private Members' Time a few weeks ago was that the Minister and the Government were afraid to face this particular motion. The Minister fails to appreciate that many farmers are at present facing disaster because of the complete collapse of the cattle business, the substantial drop in the price of calves, the soaring and uncontrolled cost of feeding stuffs and fodder, and the fact that there is no substantial increase at all in the price of pigs despite the substantial increase in production costs.

There is no doubt but that all farmers are badly hit by present rising costs and by the drop in prices but the small farmers are hit the hardest of all, and the vast majority of the farmers in the west and the south west of Ireland are in that category. We have seen reports in the newspapers over the past week or so that calves were sold for £3, £5 and up to £10 over the last couple of weeks. I know a case where calves were up for sale and there was no bid at all for them. Last year these calves would fetch from £30 to £70 each. Now cattle are down from £50 to £70 a head from last year's prices.

The seriousness of the drop in the price of calves is its terrible effect on the smallholder, who depends on the income from calves at this time of the year to buy in fertilisers and seeds and to provide for his family, to pay his rates on buildings and dwellings. He has no other income until he receives his milk cheque in the month of May. These farmers are generally honest, hard working people. They do not mind hard work, even hardship if their reward enables them to pay their way and give their family a reasonable education. This is what they are being denied at present.

The Government and the Minister encouraged farmers last year to increase their cattle numbers substantially. At that time no preparation at all was being made for the marketing of the increased number of cattle. This is one of the major reasons for the present slump.

A very popular scheme, namely, the scheme for subsidising potatoes and seeds in the congested districts, was scrapped this year. This was really a social assistance service scheme rather than an agricultural support scheme. This is a serious loss and I would ask the Minister to see whether these people can get some contribution towards the cost of purchasing potatoes and seeds, whether it is done through the public assistance authority or otherwise.

I would like the Minister to state what efforts he is making to get a market for calves at the moment in this country, and what efforts he has made over the past few months to get an export market for calves and for very young cattle. It is strongly alleged that British farmers are getting about £75 a head for calves in Italy. I would like to hear from the Minister on this matter. It is also alleged that vast quantities of beef are being imported into the EEC from outside countries. I believe the Minister and the Minister for Foreign Affairs should have vetoed any decision in Brussels to allow beef into the EEC countries when it was well known during the latter months of 1973 that we were reaching a crisis situation and that we would have a surplus of meat and cattle in stock.

The Minister should let us know the position. Farmers' expenses are higher now than ever before. In order to get top price for milk they must instal new cooling systems and have a very high standard of hygiene in their out-offices. Veterinary charges have gone up and there are many other increases in expenditure in and around the farmyard. ESB charges have increased considerably and some smallholders regard the additional charges as outrageous. Many living in remoter rural areas suffer considerably as a result of low voltage. Approaches to the ESB to remedy the problem have been unsuccessful. In the interests of these farmers I ask the Minister to see the Minister for Transport and Power and get something done immediately so that these farmers can carry on their business. In some areas when the milking machine is switched on the television set in the next house cuts out.

This is not relevant.

I shall refer the Minister to substantial increases in farming costs which took place in the past year. Incomes have not nearly kept pace with these increases. Pigs and bonham rations increased in the 12 months from January, 1973, to January, 1974, from £48.60 a ton to £80.83 a ton, over 38 per cent. The price of dairy ration increased from £57 per ton in the same period to well over £82 per ton, or nearly 44 per cent. Layers mash increased from £64 per ton to £89 per ton, about 39 per cent. Turkey mash increased from £65 per ton to approximately £100, well over 50 per cent. I am reliably informed that a £6 to £10 per ton increase is on the way in the next few weeks.

The 26 per cent nitrogen increased from £29 per ton to £42.50, about 48 per cent. The 0-10-12 increased from £27 per ton to £45, about 66 per cent. The 10-10-20 increased from £39 per ton to £70, about 75 per cent. This increase, I think, has hit the farmers hardest in the area of fertilisers. Urea has increased from £36 per ton to £70, almost 100 per cent. Also, insemination costs are going up by about 50 per cent. This time last year one calf fetching £60 could buy in a ton of dairy ration while now a farmer must sell four calves to make a similar purchase. That is a fair comparison.

It will take a tremendous effort to restore confidence among the small farmers and ensure that they will continue to produce cattle in the numbers desired. The Minister should give the House an assurance that every effort will be made to plan marketing arrangements in accordance with the increase in the cattle population and the number of pigs and farm animals in the country.

Farmers generally are concerned about the fact that the farm buildings scheme has been scrapped and incorporated in a large scheme under an EEC directive. I should like to know if this scheme could continue to operate, apart from the EEC scheme. Payment of water supply grants has been discontinued by the Department of Agriculture and Fisheries since 1st February. These schemes should be continued; they were invaluable to many farmers who could not afford to take part in large schemes such as those envisaged in the directive but who would carry out a fair amount of improvement on their farms over a period in a piecemeal way.

The Minister and the Government may be embarrassed as a result of some of their Labour colleagues in the EEC being opposed to the common agricultural policy. The Minister's hands may be tied in many respects in this manner. The weakest farmers are the worst hit—the small farmer. Assistance should be provided in some way right down to the man who is compelled to sell at a substantial loss. This money could be provided out of the Exchequer from the increased VAT the Government is getting in from the daily increasing cost of feedingstuffs and fodder.

It is not easy to remedy matters in a crisis situation but I can make a few suggestions to the Minister. First the ACC and the banks should be asked to help farmers. Local authorities should be asked to get rate collectors to go easy on farmers for the present. The Minister should ask his colleague the Minister for Health and Social Welfare to get the health boards to restore to small farmers the medical cards of which they were deprived early last year. This would be of tremendous benefit. The same Minister should be asked to ensure that social welfare officers would not harrass small farmers in receipt of the land dole because it is well-known that their incomes are now so low that the dole should be substantially increased if they are to stay on the land at all.

The Minister should find some way, by public assistance or otherwise, to subsidise fertilisers and manures. This is vital. This year it will be impossible for many farmers to manure their land properly and grow grass in the way it was done last year. Some subsidy or some assistance should be provided in respect of fertilisers and manure. Credit should be made freely available, interest free, from whatever source to enable small-holders to retain their calves and young cattle.

Debate adjourned.
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