I move:
That it is expedient to amend the law relating to customs and inland revenue (including excise) and to make further provision in connection with finance.
Financial Resolution: General.
Before I comment on that motion, the General Resolution is the resolution on which the person who proposes to carry on the debate on behalf of the Opposition moves to report progress. I want to know on what basis can we carry on this debate if we vote on this motion now.
My impression is that there has been agreement to defer the general debate until tomorrow. The Deputy may report progress.
I want this on the record. I want to make sure where we stand in relation to the Order of Business.
We want to know where the economy stands.
I must put the question now.
I want to know before you do. I want to know whether we will have a vehicle for carrying on this debate and what that vehicle will be.
I understand agreement has been reached between the Whips that if a Vote takes place on this resolution now an opportunity to debate the budget will be given by our tabling a resolution which would invite the Dáil to take note of the Financial Statement and the debate on that will take place from tomorrow until such time as agreement is reached to terminate it.
I will accept that.
Could the Minister indicate the necessity for this resolution? What kind of things are being covered?
This is like an umbrella which protects everything underneath it.
Could the Minister indicate some of the things it covers?
It is, of course, the normal General Resolution. The reason why we have not specific resolutions is that there is no need for them because there is no additional taxation. No new taxation is being applied and there is no need for specific resolutions. This one covers them all.
(Interruptions.)
Order, please.
Can I inquire under what provision income tax is imposed on farmers if there is not a financial resolution to that effect?
The present position is that farmers are liable to tax but the law exempts them. The matter will be dealt with in the Finance Bill.
Could I ask in relation to the taxation of farmers, which is taken merely as an introduction to the taxation of farmers generally, since it is not intended to collect any money this year, as the Minister takes no credit for such collection, why should there be any question of any law applying to them either now or at a later stage for this year?
Of course, the law must be passed sooner or later in order that the liability may be created. This will be dealt with in the Finance Bill.
If the Minister is taking no credit for it why does he want the law for it this year?
I think my Financial Statement explained why it would not be advisable to take credit because the sums are as yet unknown.
The Minister said at Question Time yesterday, and he has repeated it again today, that farmers are liable for income tax but they are exempted. How does he reconcile this with section 18 of the Finance Act, 1969, which clearly states that profits from farming operations are outside the scope of the Income Tax Acts?
We can take that up on the Finance Bill.
We cannot have a discussion now.
The Minister did not know yesterday and he does not know today either.
The question is very relevant to our procedure here today, and it has particular relevance to the question Deputy Blaney has asked. I think the Minister owes it to the House to give an answer one way or the other.
I have told the House——
If the Minister does not know we will adjourn the House and give him a chance to find out.
The situation is that everybody in the country is liable to income tax in respect of his income.
Not farmers.
Income from farm profits may be exempt; that does not say that farmers are exempt. Farmers could have income from a multitude of sources which would not include farming.
The Finance Act, 1969, states quite clearly and categorically—I brought it in here myself and I know—that profits from farming are not within the scope of the Income Tax Acts. Will the Minister please explain how, therefore, he proposes to deal with that situation?
All I can say is that somebody who has not yet accounted to this house for a missing £100,000 is not in a position——
(Interruptions.)
Cheap gurrier.
Order.
Could I ask the Minister is it not a fact that either in the speech he has made—I have not time to go through it now—or in the explanatory yellow page memorandum, he has used exactly the term quoted by Deputy Haughey in so far as this application of taxation to farmers is concerned?
I do not agree.
If the Minister says he does not know, we shall accept it and he can look it up.
Question put.
The Committee divided: Tá, 73; Níl, 67.
Tá
- Barry, Peter.
- Barry, Richard.
- Begley, Michael.
- Belton, Luke.
- Belton, Paddy.
- Bermingham, Joseph.
- Bruton, John.
- Burke, Dick.
- Burke, Joan T.
- Burke, Liam.
- Byrne, Hugh.
- Clinton, Mark A.
- Cluskey, Frank.
- Collins, Edward.
- Conlan, John F.
- Coogan, Fintan.
- Cooney, Patrick M.
- Corish, Brendan.
- Cosgrave, Liam.
- Costello, Declan.
- Coughlan, Stephen.
- Creed, Donal.
- Crotty, Kieran.
- Cruise-O'Brien, Conor.
- Desmond, Barry.
- Desmond, Eileen.
- Dockrell, Henry P.
- Dockrell, Maurice.
- Donegan, Patrick S.
- Donnellan, John.
- Dunne, Thomas.
- Enright, Thomas.
- Esmonde, John G.
- Finn, Martin.
- FitzGerald, Garret.
- Fitzpatrick, Tom (Cavan).
- Flanagan, Oliver J.
- Gilhawley, Eugene.
- Governey, Desmond.
- Griffin, Brendan.
- Harte, Patrick D.
- Hegarty, Patrick.
- Hogan O'Higgins, Brigid.
- Jones, Denis F.
- Kavanagh, Liam.
- Keating, Justin.
- Kelly, John.
- Kenny, Henry.
- Kyne, Thomas A.
- L'Estrange, Gerald.
- Lynch, Gerard.
- McDonald, Charles B.
- McLaughlin, Joseph.
- McMahon, Larry.
- Malone, Patrick.
- Murphy, Michael P.
- O'Brien, Fergus.
- O'Connell, John.
- O'Donnell, Tom.
- O'Leary, Michael.
- O'Sullivan, John L.
- Pattison, Seamus.
- Reynolds, Patrick J.
- Ryan, John J.
- Ryan, Richie.
- Spring, Dan.
- Staunton, Myles.
- Taylor, Frank.
- Thornley, David.
- Timmins, Godfrey.
- Toal, Brendan.
- Tully, James.
- White, James.
Níl
- Ahern, Liam.
- Allen, Lorcan.
- Andrews, David.
- Barrett, Sylvester.
- Blaney, Neil T.
- Brennan, Joseph.
- Breslin, Cormac.
- Briscoe, Ben.
- Browne, Seán.
- Brugha, Ruairí.
- Burke, Raphael P.
- Callanan, John.
- Calleary, Seán.
- Carter, Frank.
- Colley, George.
- Collins, Gerard.
- Connolly, Gerard.
- Crinion, Brendan.
- Crowley, Flor.
- Cunningham, Liam.
- Daly, Brendan.
- Davern, Noel.
- de Valera, Vivion.
- Lynch, Celia.
- Lynch, Jack.
- McEllistrim, Thomas.
- MacSharry, Ray.
- Meaney, Tom.
- Molloy, Robert.
- Moore, Seán.
- Murphy, Ciarán.
- Nolan, Thomas.
- Noonan, Michael.
- O'Connor, Timothy.
- Dowling, Joe.
- Fahey, Jackie.
- Farrell, Joseph.
- Faulkner, Pádraig.
- Fitzgerald, Gene.
- Fitzpatrick, Tom (Dublin Central).
- Flanagan, Seán.
- French, Seán.
- Gallagher, Denis.
- Geoghegan, John.
- Gibbons, Hugh.
- Gibbons, James.
- Gogan, Richard P.
- Haughey, Charles.
- Healy, Augustine A.
- Herbert, Michael.
- Hussey, Thomas.
- Kenneally, William.
- Kitt, Michael F.
- Lalor, Patrick J.
- Lemass, Noel T.
- Leonard, James.
- Loughnane, William.
- O'Kennedy, Michael.
- O'Leary, John.
- O'Malley, Desmond.
- Power, Patrick.
- Smith, Patrick.
- Timmons, Eugene.
- Tunney, Jim.
- Walsh, Seán.
- Wilson, John P.
- Wyse, Pearse.
Tellers: Tá, Deputies Kelly and B. Desmond; Níl, Deputies Lalor and Browne.
Question declared carried.
Resolution reported and agreed to.
The Dáil adjourned at 6.40 p.m. until 10.30 a.m. on Thursday, 4th April, 1974.