Dáil Éireann debate -
Thursday, 6 Jun 1974

Vol. 273 No. 5

Committee on Finance. - Vote 43:Posts and Telegraphs (Resumed).

Debate resumed on the following motion:

That a sum not exceeding £48,619,000 be granted to defray the charge which will come in course of payment during the period commencing on the 1st day of April, 1974, and ending on the 31st day of December, 1974, for the salaries and expenses of the Office of the Minister for Posts and Telegraphs and of certain other services administerted by that Office, and for payment of certain grants-in-aid.

—(Minister for Posts and Telegraphs.)

Mr. Tunney

I was suggesting earlier to the Minister that it is necessary for him to indicate more clearly the essence of what has now come to be regarded as "the Waterford speech". I was hoping he would be patient with me while I repeated something which I have already said in this House. If there is one thing more than any other which must be catered for on radio and television, it is our sense of Irishness. I was very happy to listen to the Parliamentary Secretary to the Taoiseach expressing his thoughts on this. In the main they coincide with mine. I would not be anxious to divorce myself from anything which I considered wise and profound coming from the other side of the House.

I said earlier that I did not accept that television or radio has an absolutely powerful influence. I did not deny that it has an influence. It has an aggregate influence which must be regarded as an important factor in the ultimate. In the matter of catering for and fostering things which are regarded as being Irish, its function must never be forgotten. If the history not only of this country but of the world shows anything, it shows the folly of disregarding the past. There are certain aspects of the past attaching to every country which one would like to forget and which one should forget. The normal and natural feeling of emotion which every Irishman and Irish woman has, idealistic towards that which is best for the people of Ireland, cannot and should never be disregarded. More positively it should be catered for. In catering for that which might be regarded as idealistic, you are also performing a very useful social, economic and cultural exercise.

If it appears to people that this provision is not being made, you create in the minds of some a feeling of despair or indifference, and you create in the minds of others a feeling of resistance and anger and a certain militancy which could be more than dangerous. In so far as the Minister may have given wrong impressions, or wrong impressions may have been created about him, I should like him to assure me that he is in full sympathy with RTE's obligations to cater for this feeling which we all have. I am not suggesting that we should cater for the fanatic or the impossible character. I am not suggesting that we should cater for the person who, in harbouring certain thoughts, would constitute a bother and a danger to his neighbour.

We are obliged to cater for the moderate Irish person who has this feeling within him, whether it manifests itself on the day when Ireland is involved in an international soccer match, or on the day when Ronnie Delaney is representing Ireland at the Olympic Games, or in the pride we feel when somebody who can claim Irish descent is elevated to the highest position in America. There is in the heart and in the mind of every Irish person a desire and a craving that Ireland should be free, with its own identity, and with an attitude towards life as good as and, if possible, superior to the attitude to life in any other country. Arising from that there would be a family feeling and we would have regard for each other as members of a family.

It is sad that anybody should have to stand up here and state that position. From my knowledge there is no example to be found in history of a nation who were prepared— unless they had to yield to greater force—to part with that which they regarded, and which must properly be regarded, as peculiar to themselves. Because of this I suggest to the Minister that it is an area which cannot be approached in any cold, clinical fashion. I freely admit that it is an emotional area and emotional areas and feelings generally do not lend themselves to any cold, clinical analysis. I am stating the position as I see it. I am not claiming that what I see is always, or in this case the absolutely correct view. It would be very presumptuous of me to do that but I suggest that what I am stating is as near to being correct as anything else I have stated from those who hold opposing views to mine.

I have stated on radio programmes, and in this House, before Deputy Cruise-O'Brien became a Minister, that in the matter of things Irish he was one of the few Deputies who spoke the Irish language. I heard his views expressed before he became a Minister and I never had any reason to doubt that his feelings would largely coincide with mine. Therefore, it is with reluctance that I express my anxiety and ask the Minister to make clear his position.

In treating this matter solely from the practicalities of it, it should be mentioned that in respect of section 31 people are not too happy with the situation where we get a man who is regarded by most people as being a good sound and intelligent Irishman, Seán Ó Riordáin, not being allowed take part in a television programme.

Dr. Cruise-O'Brien

That was not the point. The point was that he made a statement in support of the Provisional IRA which statement was deleted from the interview as broadcast and not that there was any objection to him as a person but to this particular sentiment.

Mr. Tunney

The Minister is making what I regard as a subtle distinction. When I say that he was denied full expression on an RTE programme——

Dr. Cruise-O'Brien

If the Deputy says that it is correct.

Mr. Tunney

He was denied full expression on an RTE programme because, it is alleged, he was commenting in a favourable fashion on an organisation which could be accused of intimidation and violence. On the other hand, it is well known to everybody, and this is the problem as I see it, that representatives of the intimidating violent loyalists can be brought down here at expense and given every opportunity to present themselves in a full and free fashion to the viewers. Where is the balance? Where is the impartiality there?

In the matter of intimidation and violence I would not differentiate between the provisionals and the loyalists. I hope the Minister will indicate why he accepts that on one hand RTE should arrange for and thank representatives of one intimidating violent group for having taken part in a programme while on the other hand they excluded a gentleman, a scholar and an Irishman of the calibre of Seán Ó Riordáin. In so far as this specific case may create the circumstances of building up in the minds and in the hearts of a certain section of people an eagerness for violence, annoyance and frustration as expressed in a manner which is not correct and does not appeal to us, I am trying to present to the Minister the need there is for at least maintaining an appearance of impartiality.

The Minister is a fair man and he has sat through the debate on his Estimate in a patient fashion but I hope he will allow himself to accept some of the ideas from this side of the House. I venture to suggest that he will accept that by appearing to act in an unjust fashion — here I refer specifically to the area of Ireland largely catered for by RTE — and that if a case can be made that this is taking place one automatically builds up in the minds of the people what they would regard as cause and reason for them to give expression to their frustration in an undesirable fashion.

In a more everyday comment I want to record my own personal annoyance and displeasure when I hear competent television and radio commentators talking about Ireland, about people in Ireland, or about counties assuming what I would regard as an old west Britonish attempt at an Irish brogue. As far as I am concerned that attitude has gone and there is an obligation on them as Irish commentators and as Irishmen to act in the same fashion towards Ireland as the manner in which their counterparts in England act towards England, but they must be careful that in so doing they do not regard Ireland as a part of England and that they do not imitate their English counterparts in the attitude they might have towards Irish bogmen.

Ar nóta a bhaineas le díomá, caithfidh mé a rá go bhfuil brón orm nach raibh an tAire in ann níos mó airgead a chur ar fáil do Radio na Gaeltachta. Tá a fhios agam go bhfuil suim aige atá ioncurtha leis an suim atá agamsa i Radio na Gaeltachta. Tuigfidh sé mar sin an díomá atá ormsa nach bhfuil ar a laghad an t-árdu céanna sin i gcúrsaí airgid a líonfadh an bhearna atá ann maidir le h-úsáidh airgid le bliain anuas, comh fada is a bhaineann sé le muintir na Gaeltachta. Bhí mé féin thiar. Bhí mé ó dheas. Bhí mé ó thuaidh agus ag caint le daoine thuig mé, sé sin i rith na bliana, gur cheapadar go bhféadfaidís i bhfad níos mó oibre a dhéanamh ach níos mó airgead a bheith acu. Gan trácht air sin ar chor ar bith, tá ceist na síceolaíochta ann. Seans go gceapfaidh siad anois, de bhrí nach bhfuil aon ardú airgid ann, nach bhfuil an oiread sin suime againn iontu agus ba cheart. Más féidir le Radio na Gaeltachta a thaispeáint go bhfuil pleananna acu nó go bhfuil ar intinn acu cláracha speisialta a chur ar fáil nach féidir leo a dhéanamh anois cheal airgid an mbeadh an tAire sásta a rá leo go gcuirfeadh sé féin an t-airgead sin ar fáil?

Mr. Gallagher

Ar dtús, ba mhaith liom traoslú leis an Aire maidir leis an gcaoi ar chuir sé na Meastacháin os comhair na Dála. Tá sé soiléir dúinn uilig an chaoi ina bhfuil an caiteachas sin déanta agus tá sé i bhfad níos fusa a thuiscint cén chaoi go bhfuil obair na Roinne atá faoi na chúram ar siúl. Ach, faraoir, caithfidh mé stopadh ansin nuair a théann sé go dtí moladh mar nuair a léigh mé óráid an Aire feicim go bhfuil mé ag rá na rudaí adúirt mé anuraidh mórán, go bhfuil na deacrachtaí céanna ann, go bhfuil na rudaí céanna a luadh anseo anuraidh, go bhfuil siad mar a bhí siad cheana agus gur beag dul chun cinn atá déanta sa Roinn seo. Dúradh go mbeadh pleananna ag an Aire le cuid mhaith rudaí a dhéanamh ach is oth liom a rá nach mar sin atá an scéal. Is beag buntáiste a fheicim ón chaiteachas seo sa Roinn Poist agus Telegrafa.

Luaigh an Teachta Tunney Radio na Gaeltachta. Tá díomá orm faoin gcaoi go bhfuil faillí déanta arís maidir le caiteachas i dtaobh Radio na Gaeltachta. Caitfidh mé, mar a rinne mé anuraidh, tagairt ar leith a dhéanamh do Chontae Mhaigheo. Níl aon tseirbhís le fáil ansin againn ó Radio na Gaeltachta. Cé gur muid an tríú Gaeltacht is mó sa tír is féidir liom a rá nach bhfuil mórán teangmháil againn ná mórán cuidiú dá thabhairt dúinn ó Radio na Gaeltachta.

Tá a fhios agam go bhfuil deacrachtaí ag an bhfoireann atá ag obair ansin ceal airgid. Níl an gléas ceart oibre acu agus déarfainn dá mbeadh an tseirbhís chéanna ar siúl acu agus atá anseo i mBaile Átha Cliath agus deis acu mar atá acu anseo i mBaile Átha Cliath go bhféadfadh siad i bhfad níos mó a dhéanamh. I láthair na h-uaire níl aon phost faoi leith ag cuid de na daoine atá ag obair ansin. Caithfidh siad dul amach agus eolas a bhailiú, ábhar chlár a bhailiú agus ansin caithfidh siad teacht isteach go dtí an stáisiún féin agus an clár sin a chur os comhair an phobail. Níl aon deis acu mar atá anseo i mBaile Átha Cliath. Níl aon chaoi ceart acu le na gcuid cláracha a réiteach agus lena gcur os comhair an phobail. Dá bhrí sin, go leor den ábhar a cuirtear amach ag Radio na Gaeltachta baineann sé leis an rud céanna i gcónaí. Níl aon leagan amach ar smaointe ná ar obair ná ar an ábhar atá á chur os comhair an phobail agus ní aon locht é sin ar na daoine atá ag plé leis an Radio ansin. Faoi mar adúirt mé níl an t-airgead acu agus níl an deis oibre acu. Is mór an trua nach bhfuil níos mó deis ag na daoine éisteacht leis na cláracha breátha a chuireann Radio na Gaeltachta ar fáil.

Sílim ó thaobh na mbunscoileanna go mba bhreá an rud é dá mbeadh clár ann a mbeadh deis ag na páistí scoile éisteacht leis i rith am scoile. Ar an gcaoi chéanna ins na meánscoileanna, agus ins na gairmscoileanna ba bhreá an rud é dá bhféadfaí ceol, amhráin, an saibhreas cainte agus Gaeilge atá ag muintir na Gaeltachta a chloisint i rith am scoile. Sílim go mba cheart don Aire féachaint chuige go mbeadh níos mó airgead le fáil aige ón Aire Airgeadais más féidir, fiú amháin go gcuirfí airgead ar fáil tré mheastacháin Aire na Gaeltachta leis na seirbhísí seo a leathnú agus a chur ar fáil do chuile dhuine.

Anois gheall an tAire go bhféachfadh sé chuige go ndéanfaí rud éigin i gContae Mhaigheo. Ón tuarascáil seo is cosúil nach bhfuil sé ar intinn tada a gheallúint i mbliana ach ní bheidh mé sásta agus coinneodh mé leis an Aire nó go bhfaighe mé freagra a bhéas sásúil maidir leis na Gaeltachtaí i gContae Mhaigheo. Cé go bhfuil muid ó thaobh daonradh dó ar an tríú Gaeltacht is mó sa tír tá an deacracht seo ann go bhfuil muid scaipthe. Tá Tuar Mhic Éadaigh i bpóca leis féin, tá Acaill—an méid atá fágtha dó mar Ghaeltacht, tá Ceathrú Thaidhg agus áiteacha eile ar chósta thuaidh Mhuigheo, agus an chuid den Ghaeltacht atá ar an taobh thiar de leithinis Bhéal a' Mhuirthid tá siad scaipthe óna chéile agus ar an gcaoi sin deineann sé an scéal níos measa mar go bhfuil siad istigh i lár áiteacha a bhfuil an Béarla ag fáil an bhua orthu. Níl siad cosúil le Gaeltachtaí Chonamara ná Gaeltachtaí Thír Chonaill atá dlúth agus atá lonnaithe in aon áit amháin.

Dá bhrí sin, sílim nuair a bhí an rud seo faoi Radio na Gaeltachta faoi scrudú an chéad uair nár tugadh aitheantas go leor do na deacrachtaí i gContae Mhaigheo. Tá mé ag iarraidh ar an Aire arís go ndéanfaidh sé scrúdú faoi leith ar an scéal agus go mbeidh freagra níos fearr le fáil agam ná fuair mé go dtí seo.

Ó thárla ag caint mé faoi Ghaeilge agus Gaeltachtaí, sílim go bhfuil rud amháin fúinn. Ní thugann muid go leor aitheantas do cheist seo na Gaeilge. Tá tuiscint i bhfad níos fearr ar Ghaeilge sa tír ná mar is eol do dhaoine. Sílim gur beag rud gur féidir le duine a rá ar an Radio ná i n-áit ar bith eile nach mbeidh tuiscint air agus ar an ábhar sin sílim go gcuideodh sé go mór le ceist na Gaeilge dá mbeadh daoine in ann níos mó den Ghaeilge a labhrann muintir na Gaeltachta a chloisteáil ar an Radio. Tá gá dá bhrí sin leis an gcuidiú seo. Tá gá leis an scéal a athbhreithniú agus lena leathnú amach le hais mar atá sé.

Níor mhaith liom go dtuigfeadh daoine ná go sílfeadh daoine go raibh mé ag caitheamh drochmheas ar na daoine atá ag obair ar son Radio na Gaeltachta. Go deimhin, a mhalairt atá ann. Sé an rud atá ar siúl agam go bhfuil mé ag iarraidh a thaispeáint na deacrachtaí atá acu agus an obair dheacair atá acu san obair atá ar siúl acu. Tá rud eile ann. Tá go leor taistil le déanamh acu agus cuireann sé seo isteach go mór ar gach gné den chaoi atá acu le cláracha a réiteach agus a chur os comhair an phobail.

Maidir le radio i gcoitinne sílim go bhfuil an-obair á déanamh ag an radio féin. Tá na cláracha atá acu ar an radio suimiúil. Tá go leor leor gné de shaol na ndaoine á chur os comhair an phobail. Tá gach cineál obair agus gnoithe atáar siúl sa tír, tá sé ag fáil aitheantas ar an radio. Is mór an moladh atá ag dul na daoine atá i mbun cláracha ar an radio. Go deimhin, tá a fhios agam féin go bhfuil daoine ag cailliúint go leor leor cláracha breátha radio i ngeall ar an dteilifís mar tá faisean ag daoine nuair a osclaíonn an teilifís tráthnóna é a chasadh ar siúl agus bíonn sé ar siúl i gcaitheamh na hoíche. I ngeall ar sin cailleann siad cuid mhaith cláracha breátha a bhíonn ar siúl ar an radio.

People who do not listen to radio programmes are missing a great deal. I find radio programmes have great value from an entertainment point of view, the standard is very high. There is more versatility on radio than on television. Too often we are inclined to switch on television when the programmes commence in the afternoon or evening and that is a shame. In this way many good radio programmes are missed.

The people responsible for this service are doing an excellent job in providing entertainment and programmes of a high educational value. I cannot say the same for television. Our television service at the moment could be regarded as another branch of the BBC. We do not appear to have very much originality. Our home-produced programmes are often of a very high quality. In the main our television service is not providing the service we expect.

Sports programmes as a rule are entertaining. The programme produced on Sunday night was, at one time, a sports programme where one got a fairly good balance as regards the various games being played. The GAA and other sports got a fair share of the time. For some reason some bright genius decided to introduce a programme which to me appears to be an attempted comedy act rather than a sports programme. I used to enjoy this particular sports programme, but since the introduction of this new programme, it has deteriorated considerably and can now hardly be classed as a sports programme. As a national service we are entitled to see programmes which relate to the Irish way of life.

One very seldom sees a good play in English or Irish. The amount of Irish music and songs which we get is fairly limited. We could hardly be satisfied with the amount of time devoted to the Irish language. It is necessary for the authority to consider these things seriously and not to make us just another branch of the BBC.

With regard to telephone services and the post office, I find myself making the same references and complaints today that I made here last year when this Estimate was presented to the House. A sum of £7.5 million has been provided for the telephone services. Quite honestly I cannot see any marked improvement in the area which I represent.

Dr. Cruise-O'Brien

It takes between two to three years for such investment to have an effect which is felt by the consumers.

Mr. Gallagher

I accept that. The importance of proper communications for industry and tourism and life in general in remote areas must be taken into account. Letters from the Department which I receive in reply to questions contain stock answers with regard to the provision of public telephones and the extension of services for people in rural areas. Last year the Minister when replying on his Estimate asked for some criteria from Deputies with regard to the provision of public telephones. At that time suggestions were made. I myself decided that where there is a national school serving an area of 70 or 80 houses this could be taken as a unit where a public telephone or kiosk could be erected. Going on that basis I have written to the Department and on various occasions put down parliamentary questions asking to have telephones provided in such areas. Again I find that the stock reply is that the Department's policy is to provide a telephone kiosk only where there is a post office. There is not much benefit to the public in having a telephone kiosk erected just outside a post office. In many instances the post offices in rural areas have been there for hundreds of years. No extra service is being provided by having the telephone service outside except that some assistance is being given to the sub-post mistress. She is being given an opportunity of finishing at 5.30 p.m. instead of continuing until 10.30 p.m. to facilitate the people coming to make telephone calls. There should be some new thinking on this.

Rural areas are very much hampered because of the lack of these services. They are necessary and should be provided without delay. If I, as a public representative, have to go before the public and give them the Department's excuse with regard to the matter I am afraid they will think very little of it. The telephone is a necessary part of life in a rural community.

Today I had two parliamentary questions to the Minister relating to this matter. The Minister explained why it is not possible to provide telephones in the two areas I mentioned. It is because a special cable would have to be put down. I accept this. The two areas I mentioned are Gaeltacht areas. Gaeltarra Éireann are doing a tremendous job trying to have industry brought to the Gaeltacht. They are working hard on this. They have a programme to have all the people of the Gaeltacht working in the early eighties. The telephone is one of the things that industrialists ask about. An industrialist will ask about communications and facilities. If a man is a farmer who wants to rear his family in a particular area where he sets up he needs such services. Apart altogether from the fact that it is important for industry it is also important from the social side. One of the things that counts a good deal with people making inquiries about setting up any particular industry is the availability of telephones. It is also very important for tourism. We find that the Americans are constantly complaining about our telephone service.

Progress reported; Committee to sit again.