Deputy Davern gave me notice of his intention to raise a matter on the Adjournment. The Deputy has 20 minutes.
Adjournment Debate. - Clonmel Garda Strength.
First of all, I want to thank you for allowing this matter to be raised on the Adjournment. It is not only important to the area which I represent but I believe it is important to many other towns and areas throughout the country, particularly in the last two years. The questions I asked the Minister last week were:
79. To ask the Minister for Justice if he is aware that the crime rate has risen in the Clonmel area, County Tipperary; and the proposals he has to combat this increase?
80. To ask the Minister for Justice if he is satisfied with the present strength of the Garda Síochána in Clonmel, County Tipperary; and if he has received complaints of undermanning in such a large town.
When those questions were raised there was a very serious position in South Tipperary. I had those questions down a week before this matter arose. Thank God for all concerned the incident passed without any serious harm to the two people concerned.
The Chair would prefer if there was no reference to any specific incident.
I appreciate that but it was mentioned in supplementaries.
It ought not be mentioned here tonight.
During his reply the Minister did not say he was satisfied with the position in regard to Clonmel town and the surrounding area. This town has a Garda strength of between 24 to 26 to cater for a population of 13,000 people in the town itself with a further population in the hinterland of about 10,000. There are, too, many fairly densely populated villages in the area. In Clonmel itself there are four major banks and the largest post office in south Tipperary. It is the commercial and administrative capital of south Tipperary.
I appreciate the fact that the Garda have heavy Border duties and many gardaí have been transferred from local Garda stations to the Border. The other day the Minister tried to twist what I had been saying. I never said there was a lack of concern on the part of the Garda about rising crime rates and the Minister should not try to give a political twist to what I did say. Numbers of people have come to me in Clonmel—members of the Chamber of Commerce, of the commercial world and private citizens—saying they are not at all happy because the Garda are not up to full strength in the town. We all know greater numbers are being assigned to Border duties but surely better use could be made of the available personnel in Clonmel.
The other day the Minister said there were two men on orderly duty at night time. That is not true. I am not blaming the Minister; whoever gave him this information misled him. These two men are on duty up to quite an early hour. He also stated a squad car was on duty at night. That may be so, but that squad car has to cover a great many pubs. I know this because I often get complaints about public houses being open late at night and it is always the Clonmel Garda who investigate. They have to cover Nine Mile House, Drangan, Rathkeevan and right across to Clerihan. I am well aware of this as a Deputy doing his constituency work.
If the Garda are called away to a traffic accident the town of Clonmel is left unmanned except for the orderly officer, or whatever he is called, on duty in the barracks. Under the regulations he may not leave the station. The crime rate is rising in Clonmel. The Minister said so; he was concerned about the rising crime rate. Actually the rate is not bad for a town of its size and it is still growing. Reports of vandalism are, however, frightening. I passed through Clonmel late the other night and I counted 14 bins overturned. The vandals are not from the town itself. They come from outlying areas. These undesirable influences come in from outside. Now the Garda may be very active in trying to combat these influences but, if they are not seen to be so active, that has a bad effect on people generally and that, in turn reflects on the morale of the Garda.
In one particular instance that I cited a shop was broken into in one of the main streets and £300 or £400 worth of goods taken. The shopkeeper reported to the Garda early in the morning and no member of the force came to investigate until 4.30 p.m. approximately. Because the Force is not up to strength there was no garda available to call on him earlier than that. The Minister stated —rather casually, I thought—that the presence of the Garda Síochána was not important after a crime had been committed. I think it is very wrong to say it is not important. It is most important that the Garda should be seen to be there at the earliest possible moment. In the case I mentioned fingerprints could be very important and the shopkeeper may quite unwittingly destroy these by making temporary repairs. Seemingly the Minister is quite happy if a member of the Garda Síochána does not come on the scene until half past four in the evening.
The Deputy is not quoting me correctly. He should quote from the record—it is available—and not paraphrase inaccurately. The Deputy should read the record.
The Minister stated it is not important for a member of the Garda Síochána to be there immediately.
I did not say that. Read what I said from the record.
The Minister did say that. Clonmel stretches over a mile and a half in length and has a vast new housing complex. What good is a man at the Irishtown end if a crime is committed at the Davis Road end, a mile and quarter away? Unless he has a radio he cannot be contacted. Again, if the squad car is in some outlying area, it will take quite a time for it to reach the scene of the crime.
I am asking the Minister to look into the matter, not just in relation to Clonmel but in relation to all areas throughout the country. Either he or his Department sent out instructions that no extra money was to be spent on overtime, particularly in areas not immediately connected with the Border. The attitude would seem to be to leave anything that does not appear to be urgent until tomorrow and to leave anything that is not of vital importance until tomorrow also.
We must not relate security with money, particularly in our present situation. This is not the first time the Minister has been accused of cutting down expenditure and asking the Garda themselves to be protectors of the public purse. I understand nothing has been given in writing, but it is obvious this is one of the main reasons for the lack of policing in many areas. Policing costs money. Complaint has been made about the lack of policing not alone in Clonmel but generally throughout the country.
Would the Deputy like to name some of them?
The subject matter of the Deputy's question relates to Clonmel and he must confine himself to that area.
The Deputy is lucky.
I do not think I need name them because the Minister must know the complaints he is getting himself from various bodies throughout the country; particularly in the last 12 months there have been more complaints than at any former time. If we look at the volume of crime committed specifically in the Clonmel area we find it varies from assault— something which has become more common in the area—to larceny, car interference, malicious damage and vandalism.
I have spoken to people in the Clonmel area who asked me what was the point in going to the Garda complaining and who said that there were no men available to do the work. Only last night I spoke to an employer in Clonmel who has been bothered on numerous occasions by petty thefts and minor larcenies of a nuisance value to the security of his firm. He has given up complaining at this stage because he knows that the men in the field cannot possibly do the work.
The Minister should seriously consider looking into the position in Clonmel town. He should provide more members of the Garda in the town or he should spend money on insuring that Clonmel, which is the biggest inland town in Ireland, the financial and administrative capital of South Tipperary, has a proper police force and proper protection, and that it is seen to get proper protection. That is important not only from the point of view of public confidence in the Garda, but also from the point of view that the Garda will reflect a good public image and have good morale in the interest of public security and in the interest of serving the people.
Deputy Davern is to be commended for his concern about the state of policing in Clonmel which is the principle centre of population in his constituency. He called it the financial capital of South Tipperary. I have no doubt that it is a town with a lot of financial importance in the area but, from his point of view, I think the most important facet of Clonmel is that it is undoubtedly the political capital of the constituency. Nevertheless, his interest is welcome. I share his concern that the people in Clonmel are worried by the level of policing available in their town. I deprecate the way in which he presented his case giving the impression that this thriving progressive town is a place of lawlessness. This is a town to which the local authority, the IDA, and the other various agencies are endeavouring to attract industry. The type of speech the Deputy made here tonight will certainly inhibit if not actually put off any industrialists from siting his new business in Clonmel.
That is why I want——
The Deputy has done a disservice to the town by painting an exaggerated picture here tonight, not for the purpose of benefiting the town of Clonmel but in an effort to embarrass me and, not only me, but the Garda in the town of Clonmel who are responsible for the policing which he says is grossly inadequate. He has done a disservice to the police service as a whole and, in particular, to all the members of the Garda in Clonmel.
Keep it up. You are doing beautifully.
Order.
The burden of Deputy Davern's complaint is that the police force in Clonmel is under strength. As I said when he asked the question originally, a number of men have had to be detached from the force in Clonmel for duty on the Border. Clonmel shares this handicap with every other town in Ireland. It would be odd if conditions in Clonmel are such as to lead to a serious breakdown in law and order and yet the same conditions do not pertain everywhere else. That makes me at least suspicious that the lily is being gilded unnecessarily by Deputy Davern for some reason, and the only reason I can think of is a party political reason.
I am confirmed in that conclusion by a statement he made which I regard as an irresponsible and reckless statement, and I do not use those words lightly. He said: "I know that his Department or himself sent out instructions that no money is to be spent on overtime in areas not connected with the Border". That was a very serious statement to make and I want to deny it categorically at this stage. There is no truth in it.
I knew you would.
He then went on to say that this instruction, of course, was not given in writing. Might I ask how Deputy Davern could know so positively about the existence of an instruction of this seriousness if it was not given in writing? No such instruction has been given. If that is the burden of his complaint here tonight, his case falls immediately. With regard to the complaint by the shopkeeper who discovered a broken window and who had to wait some hours before a member of the Garda attended at his premises——
Six hours.
Deputy Davern endeavoured to give the impression that I treated this complaint casually and he purported to give to the House what I said in the Dáil the other day when he raised this matter originally. I should like to read what I said:
I regret that the shopkeeper in question had to wait so long for Garda attention but, of course, at that stage, the crime had been committed and the immediate presence of a garda was not going to make any substantial difference.
That is the reality of the situation. That statement, that expression of concern, is a long way from the grossly inaccurate paraphrase which Deputy Davern used here this evening. I should like to put the record straight that I am concerned that any citizen would be left without help in a time of crisis for him. I understand that, when the officer in charge of the area called to speak to that citizen, no complaint was made to him about delay in providing a Garda presence to investigate the crime in question. It is important that these things be put in perspective. If the only evidence of vandalism which Deputy Davern can produce in a town of the size he mentioned—one and a half miles from end to end with a population of 13,000 people—is his own sighting of 14 dust bins overturned——
That is not the only one. The Minister is treating this very lightly.
That is the instance which the Deputy produced as evidence of vandalism.
(Interruptions.)
Interruptions in a limited debate of this kind are completely out of order. The Deputy had his opportunity to make his statement. The Chair accorded him 20 minutes for that purpose. The Minister must be allowed to utilise his ten minutes to reply without interruption.
Why did the chamber of commerce——
I have admonished the Deputy.
Deputy Davern indicated that in his opinion the crime rate was increasing drastically. That is a very serious thing to say about any town and particularly about a thriving town like Clonmel which is seeking to attract industry and seeking to increase its prestige in the competition for new industry. Deputy Davern should not state that as a categorical fact unless he has figures to support it. There was an increase, but not a drastic increase, in the crime rate in Clonmel in the first seven months of the year. We will not know until the end of the year, when we have a full year for comparison purposes, whether or not the increase is maintained right throughout the year.
There was a drop in the overall crime rate for the year ended 30th September, 1973, as compared with the year ended 30th September, 1972, and presumably my predecessor did not give this alleged instruction about overtime which I am supposed to have given. Deputy Davern's statement does not stand up. The facts do not support it. It was reckless and wrong of him to blacken the reputation of Clonmel by making that statement here. On behalf of the people of Clonmel I deprecate it and I am glad to have this opportunity of putting the record straight for the sake of the good name of that town.
Deputy Davern said that the people of the town complained to him that the strength of the Garda is not being used to its full potential. This is something which has to be left to the professional judgment of the police authorities. Neither Deputy Davern, nor I nor, with respect to them, whatever members of the public spoke to him on this matter, could have the professional knowledge to say how best the police force in any town or in any area should be deployed. We have professional policemen in whom I have complete confidence, whatever about Deputy Davern's confidence, to deport and use themselves to the best advantage to the public and to best discharge their obligations to the public.
I am glad Deputy Davern has displayed an interest in law and order and I hope he will always continue to do so but I urge him that whenever he comes to display this interest publicly in the future to do it with discretion, to have accurate facts when he comes to display it, and to make sure that in making his case he does not unwittingly harm either the town he represents, the townspeople in it or, as far as I am concerned, the members of the Garda Síochána who in very difficult times are giving an excellent service.
The Dáil adjourned at 11 p. m. until 11.30 a.m. on Thursday, 13th June, 1974.