andMr. Tunney asked the Minister for Education if he will make a statement on the breakdown of the youth services in Dublin; and the immediate action he proposes to take in the matter.
85.
Ceisteanna—Questions. Oral Answers. - Dublin Youth Services.
84.
asked the Minister for Education why there has been a reduction in the number of youth officers from 12 to five in Dublin over the last three months; and the steps he proposes to take to remedy this serious situation.
With the permission of the Ceann Comhairle I propose to take Questions Nos. 84 and 85 together.
It is not helpful to the work of many active organisations to suggest that there has been a breakdown of the youth services in Dublin. Not only are numerous voluntary organisations, such as the Catholic Youth Council, the Church of Ireland Youth Council, the Scouts and the Guides, continuing their work in youth clubs with the aid of substantial and recently increased State grants, but Comhairle le Leas Oige have themselves received increased State aid this year at an equivalent of £150,000 per annum as against £100,000 per annum in 1972-73. This money continues to be made available by Comhairle for many youth activities including the employment of part-time teachers, decoration of clubs, equipment, subsidies, and part-time youth workers.
In reply to Deputy Lemass' question, there have been two resignations in the past three months. These are effective from the end of the current month but it must be stressed that, in the case of one of these officers, Comhairle did not intend to continue the employment beyond September next. A third officer completed her period of service on 15th July and was not re-employed as there was no work for her. The resultant situation is that, apart from the Director and secretarial staff, Comhairle at present employ nine full-time youth officers.
It may be appropriate, and of help to Deputies, if I were to give some background information on the development of youth policy, with particular reference to Dublin. In September, 1973, proposals were received from the Dublin Vocational Education Committee regarding staff reorganisation of Comhairle le Leas Oige. This submission coincided with the initiation of a comprehensive re-examination of national youth policy by the Department of Education. Meanwhile Comhairle themselves have continued their own review of their role and further new but informal proposals were received from them as recently as 3rd July.
However, Comhairle are not the only organisation putting forward new ideas on youth policy. There are many different views on the priority and method of expenditure of public funds to help young people. There has not in the past been sufficiently clear and consistent thinking in the Department on such issues. I have been convinced for some time that the fairest and most effective way of allocating resources between different approaches to youth work, between voluntary and statutory organisations, and between different areas of the country, is in the context of one national policy with publicly understood objectives. This policy will take account of the necessity for youth serving agencies to co-operate closely with other agencies operating in the same community.
It is desirable that the administrative arrangement should be flexible enough to allow of changes in approach as circumstances require and enable the assistance of young people themselves, their families and their local community, to be enlisted in active self-help. A proper system of priority for areas of greatest need will need to be devised. Another concern will be the provision of back-up services, advice and supervision to ensure the most effective service to young people by those working directly with them.
My Department have been working very intensively on this and hope to be in a position fairly soon to outline their proposals to other Departments concerned with this general area of work so as to ensure parallel and coordinated development. The policy will itself lay particular stress on effective means of consultation with the youth organisations and it is also hoped to provide an opportunity for public discussion of its specific terms before final decisions are taken.
Starting in 1969, Comhairle le Leas Oige decided to employ additional youth officers in connection with a proposed extension of their services. I regret to say that officers appointed in the period 1969 to early 1973 were recruited on an ad hoc basis without a sufficiently clear understanding of their role or without adequate provision being made for guidance, support and supervision. This has, I think, since been universally recognised and is reflected in Comhairle's most recent informal submission to the Department. In large measure the decrease in the number of full-time officers is due to the decision of Comhairle themselves to curtail their involvement in what is generally known as unattached youth work until they had decided on the type of service they should provide.
The terms of employment which these youth officers accepted initially are the equivalent of those of temprary whole-time teachers. These terms have been abided by. In addition, they have since received annual increments, degree allowances and Higher Diploma allowances.
The original proposals from an Comhairle in September were to the effect that a series of social posts be created and that the youth officers be made permanent in such posts. As I think I have demonstrated, a decision as to the role, context and number of such posts is so important that in the interests of fair allocation of resources it should only be considered in the context of a national policy.
I shall be very happy to enter into discussions with the new Comhairle le Leas Oige board on these matters.
There are so many points contained in the reply that the only way one could ask questions on it would be by raising the matter on the Adjournment. However, before giving notice of that, I should like the Parliamentary Secretary to tell the House how he can dismiss the work of Comhairle le Leas Oige. Some 140 youth clubs comprising 18,000 young people are affiliated to the Comhairle. Does the Parliamentary Secretary accept he has overall responsibility for youth? Why has he allowed the existing services to deteriorate? Is he aware that there is no one in Dublin to look after unattached youth, particularly those subject to drug abuse? He has given some figures with regard to the reduction in the number of youth officers. Of the nine officers he mentioned four are in headquarters and are not in the field; there are only five community youth officers——
The Deputy is making a speech, he is not asking a question.
I am asking a series of questions because the Parliamentary Secretary gave a long reply. I think he understands the points I am raising. He will have plenty of opportunity on the Adjournment.
Acting Chairman
The Deputy is late for the Adjournment. Notice must be given before 3.30.
I will give notice next week. What will he do to remedy the situation until his policy, which he has described as being at an advanced stage—it is so advanced it must be decrepit—is ready? What will he do in the interim for the people who have no youth workers to look after them, the people who are in trouble, the hard core of problem youth of this city?
It is usual for matters to be raised on the Adjournment in the light of unsatisfactory replies. My reply was far from unsatisfactory.
It depends on one's point of view.
I went to considerable trouble to put the full facts on the table. I am very anxious to contradict Deputy Briscoe's statement that I dismissed the work of Comhairle le Leas Oige. That is a travesty of the truth. It is clearly indicated from the detailed reply I gave that I take the work of Comhairle le Leas Oige very seriously indeed. I have met Comhairle le Leas Oige twice since I was appointed Parliamentary Secretary. In the four or five years that there was a Fianna Fáil Parliamentary Secretary there was only one meeting between him and Comhairle le Leas Oige.
When was that?
I do not know the date.
The Parliamentary Secretary is not right there.
I am anxious to meet the new Comhairle le Leas Oige to discuss the ideas that were put forward here about the general aim of a new youth policy. Deputy Briscoe said there were 180 clubs without services.
I said 140.
I would draw his attention to the fact that I said in my reply that not only are there voluntary organisations active in the area but Comhairle le Leas Oige has a grant this year of £150,000 as against £100,000 in 1972-73, a 50 per cent increase. This money continues to be made available for many youth activities including the employment of part-time teachers, decoration of clubs, equipment, subsidies and parttime youth workers.
I am concerned——
Acting Chairman
The Parliamentary Secretary must be allowed to answer the supplementaries he was asked.
In so far as the unattached workers are concerned, the decision to curtail this activity was a decision of Comhairle le Leas Oige itself, not of the Department. In so far as remedying the present situation is concerned, I have indicated the services that are being made available. I have indicated that nine youth officers are functioning. If some other youth officers choose to resign, that is a decision for them. I indicated that the number who resigned in the past two months was only two. I have indicated also that the youth officers in question are receiving as well as salaries on a par with those of temporary whole-time teachers, annual increments, degree allowances and higher diploma allowances.
The Parliamentary Secretary has given the grant in respect of 1972-73 and 1973-74. Would he give it in respect of 1974-75?
The £150,000 is the annual equivalent of the grant in respect of the current nine-month period and I gave it as an annual equivalent because the grant is for a nine-month period. If the current financial year were a 12-month year the annual equivalent of that would be £150,000. What they are, in fact, getting for this nine-month period is £112,000.
But the Parliamentary Secretary said they were getting a grant of £150,000.
I said they were getting State aid at an annual equivalent of £150,000 at the present time.
It is very misleading. It is only an increase of £12,000.
It is not. It is £112,000 for nine months which is the annual equivalent of £150,000 for a full year. If one is comparing the present situation with the previous full year one must express it in terms of an annual equivalent. I think the Deputy is good at simple mathematics and should be able to work that out.
(Interruptions.)
It was often said to me when I was Parliamentary Secretary that the longer the answer the less one had to say. The Parliamentary Secretary's reply was so lengthy it is difficult to frame a supplementary. Is the Parliamentary Secretary aware that it is the experience in advanced industrial countries that the expansion of services such as those provided by Comhairle le Leas Oige has proved to be a saving to the State by helping children to be brought up in a more orderly way and to fit into society better. Despite the Parliamentary Secretary's activities and those of the Minister for Local Government he will agree that there is a lack of amenities?
In general I am in full agreement with what Deputy Lemass has said. The only qualification I would add is that those other countries are changing their ideas as time passes as to the most appropriate way of spending the money. We are keeping in close touch with this. I have visited a number of these countries myself and studied the youth services and officers of my Department have done so also. We are hoping to incorporate what we think are the best of their ideas in the policy we are working out. I agree fully that the activities of the Department of Local Government and Dublin Corporation are very relevant in this field and I hope that my effort to produce a comprehensive policy, which will be publicly known to the other agencies in the field, will enable them to know what we are doing and in turn what remains for them to do. In that way we can have co-ordinated and parallel development.
Would the Parliamentary Secretary not agree that it is reasonable that the youth workers attached to Comhairle le Leas Oige, who have university degrees, should be entitled to look for permanent positions and that their salaries and conditions of employment should be the same as those of, say, welfare officers in the Department of Justice?
I do not think the question of whether a person has a degree or not arises. I think the case can be made for permanence for anybody. The difficulty here is that if you are to create a permanent post you must create it on particular terms with specific terms of employment. I believe that the terms of employment of a youth officer are a central issue in any youth policy and that is why I want to consider the thing in a general national context. There is the added difficulty that, while these people are at present employed by a subsidiary of the VEC, they are not as easily transferred as teachers would be from one school to another because they do not have teaching qualifications.
I must ask——
No more supplementaries on that question.
I wish to raise this matter on the Adjournment next week.
Acting Chairman
The Deputy will have to give notice next week.
I will give notice on Tuesday.
I will raise it too.