Dáil Éireann debate -
Friday, 26 Jul 1974

Vol. 274 No. 13

Committee on Finance. - Defence Forces (Pensions) (Amendment) (No. 4) Scheme, 1974: Motion.

Minister for Defence (Mr. Donegan)

I move:

That the Defence Forces (Pensions) (Amendment) (No. 4) Scheme, 1974, prepared by the Minister for Defence with the consent of the Minister for the Public Service under sections 2, 3 and 5 of the Defence Forces (Pensions) Act, 1932 and section 4 of the Defence Forces (Pensions) (Amendment) Act, 1938 and laid before the House on the 25th day of July, 1974 be confirmed.

The purpose of this scheme is to provide an alternative basis of calculation for the pensions of the widows of military officers who were not members of the contributory widows' pension scheme.

At present such widows receive flat-rate pensions which are the same for all widows of officers of a particular commissioned rank and which vary only from rank to rank. For other public service groups, the pensions payable to widows who do not benefit from contributory pension schemes are fixed at one-half of what the contributory pension would have been. The contributory pension is one-half of the employee's own pension which is directly based on his pay and service and, accordingly, both types of pension vary directly according to pay and service.

It is desirable to bring these flat-rate pensions into line with the pensions of other public service widows as regards varying the amount according to service. There are many difficulties in doing this within the framework of the Defence Forces pensions code since an officer's retired pay, while changing according to service and rank, is not directly pay-and-service related. The basis now proposed is to calculate the pension of a military officer's widow by applying an appropriate percentage for each rank to the retired pay which would be payable to her husband if he were alive on the 1st July, 1974.

The flat-rates, inclusive of the 1974 budget increases, are being retained to provide a floor for these payments. At the maximum of the retired pay scales the percentages provide modest improvements in these pensions. I commend the scheme to the House.

Mr. Meaney

The Minister has-stated that the purpose of this scheme is to provide an alternative basis of calculation for the pensions of widows of military officers who were not members of the contributory widows' pension scheme. People are always asking why there cannot be some set scheme. I take it that the Minister is trying to establish something definite. Does he think this will hold in six years' time, that everything will go pro rata from there on and that if the husbands of those widows had contributed a certain sum, they would be contributory pensioners and they would receive a fixed sum when their husbands die? Can I ask the Minister are we trying to bring them up to that level?

Mr. Donegan

Yes.

Mr. Meaney

Will this at all times hold in line so that it will be the same as if their husbands contributed to a contributory pension? I believe the question will be asked in a few years' time, especially in relation to the different rates of pay, will they be getting the same amount as they would if they had contributory pensions? We are now deeply involved with the Army where we have pay-related benefits and so on. Could we not become further involved with the Department of Social Welfare? I should like the Minister to comment on that.

Mr. Molloy

Earlier I expressed disappointment. I am now looking at the second Order which the Minister has brought forward; I had not seen the explanation of it previously and I am amazed, in view of the representations made over the past 12 months that in bringing in a pensions amendment order the Minister brought in an order dealing solely with the widows of officers. The point was made continuously over the past 12 months by myself, Deputy Meaney and others that retired non-commissioned officers informed us of this position. More than ourselves have been making representations. I am amazed that the Minister should bring forward a pensions scheme without making any reference to the widows of non-commissioned officers and soldiers.

Mr. Donegan

I shall refer to them.

Mr. Molloy

I know the Minister will refer to them now when we have raised the matter but I am expressing deep disappointment that the Minister did not consider it appropriate to bring in an amendment order including the widows of the categories I refer to. Perhaps the Minister has an explanation as to how it was impossible to do this. I shall find it very hard to accept but I am sure he will make some excuse. I shall accept the excuse if he can give an assurance that he will do what is required within a very short time.

Mr. Donegan

The serving soldier is insured under the Social Welfare Acts and his widow is therefore entitled to a contributory pension which, at the current rate, is £7.80 per week. I should like to see them getting ten times that, if it were possible, but if we want to make comparisons we must consider the actual position. Before dealing with that position I should say that the question of providing a contributory pensions scheme for the widows of non-commissioned personnel is under examination in my Department and I am not now in a position to say what the result will be. Final recommendations have not yet reached me and while representations have been made over the past 12 months I cannot do anything at this point. I do not want to be taken as making an argument against non-commissioned personnel and widows but I want to give the facts as they are.

A non-commissioned soldier is insured under the Social Welfare Acts and his widow is entitled to a pension of £7.80 a week irrespective of her own wealth, or lack of it. The scheme now proposed would give the widow of a lieutenant, who was receiving £348.84 —which is not far from £7.80 a week —£402.36, which is only 13.8 per cent of a lieutenant's pay. The increase is £53.52. Deputies will understand that we must equate these matters throughout the public service and that we are limited even though we would wish to do far more. The argument seems to be made that the serving soldier's widow gets nothing and that the officer's widow gets a pension. That is erroneous in this regard——

Mr. Molloy

Nothing from the Department of Defence.

Mr. Donegan

Could the Deputy justify a situation in which the widow of a serving soldier would have a pension of £7.80 at this time while the widow of a lieutenant—I have no brief for either of them—would receive only—even with the increase— £402.36 and was receiving only £348.84? The matter is one of equity.

Mr. Molloy

Why lieutenant? Why not lieutenant-colonel?

Mr. Donegan

There are very few lieutenants. I am delighted to give all the information I can. There are seven such widows receiving £348.84 and who will now get £402.36. There are 38 in the lieutenant-colonel category who were receiving £571.98 and who will now get £627.24, 14.2 per cent of a lieutenant-colonel's pay. The argument put up, if not fallacious, is misleading in that while we want to do our best for the serving soldier we must have equity and relate his service to that throughout the public sector. It is impossible for the Minister for the Public Service to agree to something which gives anybody rights above the rights of civil servants in the various departments. But I can tell the House that the matter is being examined. It will be understood that it would be most inequitable if two pensions of any size were given to non-commissioned personnel and a pension given to commissioned personnel which would roughly correspond to only one of the pensions enjoyed by the serving soldier's widow, the £7.80.

The scheme introduced in 1968 was a voluntary and contributory scheme and certain officers did not opt into it and they are also excluded. It is quite wrong for anybody to take a line on serving soldiers or any other personnel without taking the whole spectrum into account and trying to ensure fair play for all.

It would also include those who did not opt to join the scheme which was voluntary for serving officers. It is no longer voluntary for newcomers. This situation can never happen again. The anomaly arose because in 1968 the scheme was voluntary and certain people did not go in and the widows of officers who retired, or died, pre-1968 and were not serving when the scheme was introduced were having a bad time. I have given the increases and I think the House will agree that they are no better than could be expected. I wish they were far greater but they must be in line with what prevails in the Public Service.

Before dealing with Deputy Meaney's remarks I should like to state what this scheme gives. There are seven lieutenants and the increase is from £348.84 to £402.36. There are 60 captains.

Mr. Meaney

May I interrupt to ask if it is not dangerous to be giving figures rather than percentages? Figures can go out-of-date very quickly. A percentage always holds good no matter what happens. Those figures may be obsolete very shortly.

Mr. Donegan

I cannot agree with the Deputy. If he reads the scheme he will see that the percentages are there.

Mr. Meaney

They are in and the sums of money are alongside.

Mr. Donegan

You can see the rates. I will leave you and not give the actual figures. The Deputy asked me will the pensions hold in line as if they were paying in a contributory fashion. The scheme is a continuous one. My opinion is that if these percentages have to be increased at a later date that would be a matter for the Ministers for Defence and the Public Service. Nobody can legislate for next year's budget. This is a continuing scheme which remains until amended.

Mr. Meaney

Would the scheme take cognisance of Budgets which come along?

Mr. Donegan

We cannot do that.

Mr. Meaney

It is awkward to have to come back so often.

Mr. Donegan

You will not have to come back often unless the scheme is to be amended.

Mr. Molloy

The widow of an NCO is entitled to a social welfare contributory pension. If special provision is being made in the Department of Defence in their own pension scheme would that apply only to commissioned officers? The NCOs should have a pension scheme. There is class distinction being made by the Department between the various levels of members of the Defence Forces. This is something which we must eliminate from our society. I would prefer to see the Department of Defence having a scheme covering all personnel who have served in the Irish Army. If the widow of an NCO is entitled to a contributory widow's pension why is she not entitled to a contributory old age pension? She does not automatically qualify for a contributory old age pension. There seems to be an anomaly.

Mr. Donegan

Officers are insured now under the Social Welfare Acts. They were not so insured up to a certain point in time. Officers' widows were not entitled to Social Welfare widow's pensions.

Mr. Molloy

If the widow of an NCO is entitled to a contributory widow's pension why is she not entitled to a contributory old age pension?

Mr. Donegan

She is when she reaches a certain age.

Mr. Molloy

She is not.

Mr. Donegan

She is. There is no legislation against having that.

Mr. Molloy

The widow of a retired NCO is not entitled to a contributory old age pension on the basis of contributions paid from her husband's salary in the Irish Army.

Mr. Donegan

Let us take the case of a private with 21 years' service. He gets a pension of £13.02 but when he reaches 65 years he goes on retirement pension and gets £27.02. He is taken to be past his working capacity. As I understand it an NCO's widow would be entitled to the widow's pension.

Mr. Molloy

Contributory?

Mr. Donegan

There could be a difficulty with regard to insurance contributions. She would be entitled to it if her husband remained in insurance. An NCO may leave at 50 years of age after 31 years' service. He would have maximum pension. If he was self-employed after that he might not pay Social Welfare contributions just as Deputy Molloy and I would not do so if we were self-employed and would not be entitled to Social Welfare benefit.

Mr. Molloy

The Minister gave misleading information when he referred to the pension paid to the widow of an NCO.

Mr. Donegan

It is £7.80. If he continues in payment of contributions after his retirement from the Army his widow would be entitled to a contributory widow's pension. He is entitled to everything that everybody else gets. There is no difference between the widow's and the old age pension.

Mr. Molloy

Would the Minister expedite the review of the scheme?

Mr. Donegan

We will, but it will not be done tomorrow or the next day.

Mr. Molloy

That has been the stock answer for the last three months.

Mr. Donegan

The widow of an NCO gets £7.80 as long as she lives. The widow of a pre-1968 man who was not serving when the pension scheme was introduced or who did not opt to join the scheme when it was voluntary gets £348.84 per annum.

Question put and agreed to.