asked the Minister for Social Welfare if he will extend the free fuel scheme to areas other than the present designated areas in view of the exceptional rise in fuel costs.
Ceisteanna—Questions. Oral Answers. - Fuel Scheme.
12.
As I indicated in the course of my reply to a previous similar question by the Deputy in March last, I do not consider that the fuel scheme as it is now operating is satisfactory and, accordingly, no extension of it in its present form is contemplated. I would hope, however, that it may be possible to make other and more satisfactory arrangements for the provision of fuel to necessitous families under the improved home assistance scheme in respect of which I propose to introduce legislation during the present session of Dáil Éireann.
The Parliamentary Secretary will agree that it will take some time before this Bill is introduced and becomes law. Is the Parliamentary Secretary aware that, due to the exceptional rise in the cost of living—and particularly in fuel costs —many families, depending entirely on social welfare payments, will be without sufficient fuel this winter? Does he not agree that it is a matter of urgent necessity to see to it that the scheme is extended to include those at present outside the limits?
I agree with the Deputy when he says that the coming winter will be a time of considerable concern for many people depending on social welfare assistance. As the Deputy is probably aware, the administration of the fuel scheme is a matter for the local authorities at the moment. In the last few days I have issued a circular bringing to the attention of local authorities the grave difficulties that people in this category will experience, in my opinion, during the coming winter months. I sincerely hope that the local authorities will respond in a positive manner to the circular which has been issued. As the Deputy is aware, under present legislation, it is not possible for me to do anything of a concrete nature in this way but I am extremely hopeful that the new legislation which will be introduced during this session with regard to home assistance will do away with this problem in the future.
Is the Parliamentary Secretary aware that the people referred to who have no income other than social welfare will either starve or freeze to death this coming winter? Is the Parliamentary Secretary further aware that the Southern Health Board have informed Cork County Council that to supply sufficient fuel to keep those people warm will cost in the region of £600,000 this present rating year? Would the Parliamentary Secretary please comment on where that money will come from because it is a sad indictment of this Government that the——
The Deputy is imparting information rather than seeking it.
In order to keep people warm——
Deputy Meaney, please. The Chair will pass on to the next question if the Deputy persists.
A Cheann Comhairle——
I shall have to call the next question.
Is the Parliamentary Secretary aware——
I shall have to call the next question, then. Question No. 13.
A Cheann Comhairle, I am asking my first question.
(Interruptions.)
Deputies must conform to the rules governing Question Time.
I am standing here on behalf of the people who want to live this coming winter.
Deputy Meaney, please.
A Cheann Comhairle, please——
I have given Deputy Meaney a great deal of latitude; if he persists in talking and making speeches——
The poverty of this country is a lot more important.
Deputy Meaney is making a speech. The Deputy is behaving in a disorderly fashion.
I do not intend to, a Cheann Comhairle, but I asked a question and I did not get an answer.
The Chair is anxious that the Deputy would get a reply to a question but he may not make a speech.
Can the Parliamentary Secretary answer me? Who is going to pay the money?
(Interruptions.)
Deputy Meaney is holding up Question Time when there are hundreds of questions on the Order Paper.
I am standing here on behalf of those people——
Deputy Meaney will resume his seat——
——the old age pensioners, non-contributory old age pensioners, those on widow's pensions, those on home assistance. They are supposed to live on £7.30 a week and are the Government doing anything about that? The rates are supposed to pay for it—£600,000 on our rates.
Deputy Meaney, leave the House if——
I am entitled to ask a question and to get an answer.
The Deputy is behaving in a disgraceful fashion. The Chair has sought to give the Deputy every facility. Resume your seat, Deputy, or leave the House.
Because I asked one question; it is a disgrace to our national Parliament. I am not going to be subjected and downed like this. We have not got a Labour conference here where they can shove people around.
If Deputy Meaney persists he will have to leave the House.
I am putting a case to the Parliamentary Secretary as to who must accept responsibility for those people who will either starve to death or freeze to death during the coming winter.
The Deputy will withdraw from the House unless——
People of whom the Deputy is speaking have a greater chance of survival now than they had under the last Administration.
I am entitled to ask a question.
On a point of order, I wish to protest at the very partial way in which the Chair is conducting Question Time. Question Time should be an occasion on which one can ask a question. Deputy Meaney asked one question and is being asked to leave the House.
As the Deputy is aware, Deputy Meaney has been on his feet for the past number of minutes.
We cannot take this kind of thing much longer.
This crooked Government cannot answer these straight questions that are put to them.
Deputy Meaney has held up Question Time for some minutes.
The Government are exposed already.
On a point of order, the Deputy asked one question and was not given an answer.
Deputy Meaney persisted in talking despite the admonitions of the Chair time and again. I am calling Question No. 13.
You asked him to sit down although his question had not been answered. There is no need for him to be suspended.
There is no question of that.
I have no intention of outshouting Deputy Meaney. Does he think that the volume of his voice in this House is any substitute for the neglect of his party during a period of 16 years? He will not intimidate anybody on these benches.
The Parliamentary Secretary did not answer the question.
Where is the £600,000 to come from?
The Chair has called Question No. 13.
I have only asked one supplementary on my question.
The Chair appreciates that.
Could the Parliamentary Secretary say whether the circular he sent to local authorities will be of any assistance to those outside the designated areas who are in need of fuel?
As the Deputy knows, the law under which this scheme is administered is one which was enacted by the previous Government. In no circumstances am I entitled to go outside the scope of existing legislation. That is why, during the present Dáil session, we intend introducing legislation to change the situation.
Is the Parliamentary Secretary aware that I raised this matter about six months ago? Has he considered this aspect of it since? In relation to the circular he sent to the local authorities, has he referred to the fact that those on social welfare payments who are entitled to free fuel are experiencing difficulty in obtaining the fuel at a reasonable price? The fuel is not delivered and, consequently, they must buy in very small amounts and at higher prices?
I referred specifically to the question of delivery of fuel. As the Deputy must be aware, one of the main difficulties for these people is that even if the fuel is available, they are not at all times able to collect it. I would remind the House that it is within the authority of local authorities to deliver fuel to these people. Some local authorities, for instance, Dún Laoghaire does so already most satisfactorily.
Will the Parliamentary Secretary send me a copy of the circular?
Certainly.
While we may disagree as to why recipients of social welfare are faced with this situation, there is agreement on all sides as to the seriousness of the situation so far as the coming winter is concerned. The legislation to which the Parliamentary Secretary referred has never been more necessary.
The Chair is waiting for a question.
Could temporary arrangements be made to help local authorities in this regard in view of the fact that, for instance, the Southern Health Board have estimated that the provision of a scheme in Cork would cost approximately £600,000?
Deputies may not debate this matter here today. Already we have devoted a considerable amount of time to it. The Chair is anxious to make some progress.
The rates could not bear such an imposition. Is there any hope of introducing urgently temporary legislation to deal with the problem and can the Parliamentary Secretary say whether in the legislation he proposes it is intended to abolish the horrible voucher system?
I would not agree that the situation was never more urgent. The scheme is based on an Act of 1847 which was revised in 1939. Since then there have been some very severe winters both in the economic and climatic sense but up to now I was not aware of any grave concern on the part of the people opposite for those to whom they are referring.
What about my second supplementary in regard to vouchers?
We must move on to Question No. 13.
I have been offering for some time.
The Chair appreciates that but the Deputy is aware that we have been on this question for the past ten minutes.
But I have been offering for some time. You have passed me over.
Sorry about that, Deputy.
In view of the delays which there may be in introducing legislation, would the Parliamentary Secretary use the existing machinery (a) to increase the units of free electricity to which these people are entitled and (b) to increase the allocation of money to the local authorities to develop the fuel scheme? These are steps that could be taken.
The Deputy is imparting information. We must move on to the next question.
A number of Deputies who have engaged in this discussion by way of supplementary question are members of local authorities that have substantial power in regard to the administration of this scheme.
But we have not got the money.
We are not all members of local authorities.
So far as I am aware none of those Deputies has tabled a resolution to the appropriate local authorities in this regard.
That is not true. There was such a resolution put to the relevant authorities in Cork on Monday last.
At least I am encouraged by this new-found concern.
The Parliamentary Secretary told us last week that he would solve all of this.
(Interruptions.)
Order. Next question please.