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Dáil Éireann debate -
Wednesday, 27 Nov 1974

Vol. 276 No. 3

Private Members' Business. - Trade Union (Amalgamations) Bill, 1974: Committee Stage (Resumed).

NEW SECTION.
Debate resumed on amendment No. 15:
Before section 17 to insert a new section as follows:
"The members of an amalgamating trade union, which has not got a political fund, shall, upon becoming members of an amalgamated union with such a fund, be deemed to have opted out of such fund".
—(Deputy Dowling.)

When I spoke earlier I suggested that Deputy Dowling had made a reasonable plea to the Minister that he might accept this amendment and in later legislation give us the opportunity of discussing other matters the Minister raised. I do not know how much persuasion we can exert on the Minister to alter his opposition to this amendment. Even at this late stage, so that the business of the House may proceed on other matters, the Minister might indicate if he will accept Deputy Dowling's amendment or if, as I suggested earlier, he will add to Deputy Dowling's amendment an addendum to the effect that a trade union which has not got a political fund upon becoming members of an amalgamated union with such a fund shall be deemed to have opted out. The Minister, in reply to that, said: "Look, there are lots of other arguments on such things as the private contributions of firms to political parties at election time." I am ready to discuss this aspect if the Minister gives us an opportunity.

I ask the Minister if he will accept Deputy Dowling's amendment and let us get on with the rest of the Bill, or if he will move an amendment or an addendum to that stating that no member of an amalgamated union shall have to opt out of paying a political levy, which is the fairest way of doing it; or else that the Minister will give us an indication that he will introduce wider legislation on trade unionism so that we can discuss very fully the Minister's concern, shared by many of us, on the matter of financing political parties for election purposes.

The basic motive behind Deputy Dowling's amendment is not to deprive a trade union of any funds from a political levy. If they want to contribute to a political fund, that is their business. The amendment seeks to put the onus on the people who want to do that to opt in and to remove the onus from the people who do not want to do it to opt out. This is a very just request from Deputy Dowling. I recommend it to the Minister wholeheartedly so that we can move on with this Bill.

Amendment put.
The Committee divided: Tá, 54; Níl, 62.

  • Allen, Lorcan.
  • Andrews, David.
  • Barrett, Sylvester.
  • Brady, Philip A.
  • Brennan, Joseph.
  • Breslin, Cormac.
  • Brosnan, Seán.
  • Browne, Seán.
  • Brugha, Ruairí.
  • Burke, Raphael P.
  • Callanan, John.
  • Calleary, Seán.
  • Carter, Frank.
  • Colley, George.
  • Connolly, Gerard.
  • Crinion, Brendan.
  • Cronin, Jerry.
  • Crowley, Flor.
  • Cunningham, Liam.
  • Daly, Brendan.
  • de Valera, Vivion.
  • Dowling, Joe.
  • Moore, Seán.
  • Murphy, Ciarán.
  • Nolan, Thomas.
  • Noonan, Michael.
  • O'Connor, Timothy.
  • Fahey, Jackie.
  • Farrell, Joseph.
  • Faulkner, Pádraig.
  • Fitzgerald, Gene.
  • Fitzpatrick, Tom (Dublin Central).
  • French, Seán.
  • Gallagher, Denis.
  • Gogan, Richard P.
  • Haughey, Charles.
  • Healy, Augustine A.
  • Herbert, Michael.
  • Hussey, Thomas.
  • Kenneally, William.
  • Kitt, Michael F.
  • Lalor, Patrick J.
  • Lemass, Noel T.
  • Leonard, James.
  • Loughnane, William.
  • Lynch, Jack.
  • MacSharry, Ray.
  • Meaney, Tom.
  • Molloy, Robert.
  • O'Malley, Desmond.
  • Smith, Patrick.
  • Timmons, Eugene.
  • Tunney, Jim.
  • Wilson, John P.

Níl

  • Barry, Richard.
  • Begley, Michael.
  • Belton, Luke.
  • Belton, Paddy.
  • Bermingham, Joseph.
  • Bruton, John.
  • Burke, Dick.
  • Burke, Liam.
  • Byrne, Hugh.
  • Clinton, Mark A.
  • Cluskey, Frank.
  • Conlan, John F.
  • Coogan, Fintan.
  • Cooney, Patrick M.
  • Corish, Brendan.
  • Cosgrave, Liam.
  • Costello, Declan.
  • Coughlan, Stephen.
  • Creed, Donal.
  • Crotty, Kieran.
  • Cruise-O'Brien, Conor.
  • Desmond, Noel.
  • Desmond, Eileen.
  • Dockrell, Maurice.
  • Donegan, Patrick S.
  • Donnellan, John.
  • Dunne, Thomas.
  • Enright, Thomas.
  • Esmonde, John G.
  • Finn, Martin.
  • Fitzpatrick, Tom (Cavan).
  • Flanagan, Oliver J.
  • Gilhawley, Eugene.
  • Governey, Desmond.
  • Griffin, Brenan.
  • Hegarty, Patrick.
  • Hogan O'Higgins, Brigid.
  • Jones, Denis F.
  • Keating, Justin.
  • Kelly, John.
  • Kyne, Thomas A.
  • L'Estrange, Gerald.
  • Lynch, Gerard.
  • McDonald, Charles B.
  • McLaughlin, Joseph.
  • Malone, Patrick.
  • Murphy, Michael P.
  • O'Brien, Fergus.
  • O'Donnell, Tom.
  • O'Leary, Michael.
  • O'Sullivan, John L.
  • Pattison, Seamus.
  • Reynolds, Patrick J.
  • Ryan, John J.
  • Ryan, Richie.
  • Spring, Dan.
  • Staunton, Myles.
  • Taylor, Frank.
  • Timmins, Godfrey.
  • Toal, Brendan.
  • Tully, James.
  • White, James.
Tellers: Tá, Deputies Lalor and Browne; Níl, Deputies Kelly and B. Desmond.
Amendment declared lost.
SECTION 17.

Amendment No. 16 has already been discussed with amendment No. 3.

I move amendment No. 16.

In page 7, lines 19 and 20, to delete "(Amalgamations)".

Amendment agreed to.
Section 17, as amended, agreed to.
SCHEDULE.
Question proposed: "That the Schedule be the Schedule to the Bill."

Section 9 states:

(1) A member of a trade union which passes or purports to pass a resolution approving an instrument of amalgamation or transfer may complain to the Registrar on one or more than one of the following grounds—

The section set out the grounds on which the member might complain to the registrar. In the discussions on this section we were told that members would be protected by the provisions in the section and it appeared this was so. However, the Schedule states:

1. On a complaint made under section 9 the Registrar may—

(a) require the attendance of the complainant or of any officer of the trade union and may, on the application of the complainant or any such officer, require the attendance of any person as a witness;

(b) require the production of any documents relating to the matters complained of;

(c) administer oaths and take affirmations and require the complainant, any officer of the trade union or any person attending as a witness to be examined on oath or affirmation;

(d) grant to the complainant or to any officer of the trade union such discovery as to documents and otherwise, or such inspection of documents, as might be granted by the High Court;

(e) order the whole or any part of the expenses of hearing the complaint, as certified by him, to be paid either out of the funds of the trade union or by the complainant; and

While it appears that a person has a right to complain, apparently he will pay dearly for that right. It is unreasonable for the Minister to insert penal clauses in this Bill which will victimise a member who has a legitimate right to complain as set out in section 9. Paragraph 1(f) of the Schedule states that the Registrar may:

order the trade union to pay to the complaintant out of the funds of the union, or the complainant to pay to the union, either a specified sum in respect of the costs incurred by the complainant or the union (as the case may be) or the taxed amount of those costs.

We can clearly see that this will victimise a person who will be obliged to pay expenses. It is completely unreasonable that while we have a section that guarantees the right of a member to make a complaint to the registrar against the manner in which a vote has taken place, a member will have to pay the expenses incurred. What would happen if an ordinary member of a union lost a case and was thereby liable to pay the substantial costs involved? Would he be obliged to sell his home to pay the expenses incurred as a result of a complaint legitimately made?

Paragraph 2 states:

A person who, on the application of any person, is required to attend before the Registrar as a witness in proceedings on a complaint under Section 9 shall be entitled to be paid by the person on whose application he is so required—

(a) such sum in respect of time and travelling expenses as he would be entitled to on being served with a summons to attend as a witness in the High Court, and

(b) if he duly attends, a sum equal to any further allowances to which he would be entitled if attending as a witness in proceedings in the High Court.

These are clauses that penalise the member who makes a complaint. Under section 9 the member is given that right in relation to the ballot but if, in the pursuance of a legitimate complaint, he calls witnesses he must pay. This is absurd and the Minister will have to change his attitude so that these people will not be victimised.

Not alone does a member have to pay the union the expenses they incurred, he must also pay the expenses of the witnesses he has called on his behalf. The intention of this Bill is to ensure that mergers and amalgamations are made easier, with moneys forthcoming to the unions by way of grants towards exceptional expenses in relation to the amalgamations. However, the unfortunate union member, the smallest cog in the wheel, the person who considers he has a legitimate complaint which he makes to the registrar, will be burdened with this tremendous expense. These penal clauses have been inserted to ensure that members of unions will not make complaints because of the substantial expenses they might incur at some stage. Paragraph 3 (2) of the Schedule states:

A person shall not be convicted of an offence——

this refers to the person who does not turn up

——under this paragraph by reason of failure or refusal on his part to comply with a requisition to attend as a witness before the Registrar unless any sum to which he is entitled under paragraph 2 (a) of

this Schedule has been paid or tendered.

He has to pay prior to the attendance of the witness and I hold this is completely unreasonable. I suggest to the Minister that complaints will not be made to the registrar because people will be afraid of the expenses that will be incurred. The Minister should be empowered to make money available to unions who are contemplating amalgamation.

This Bill is defective when one considers the penal clauses set out in the Schedule. I would ask the Minister to explain the provisions in the Schedule and to give us an assurance that no one will be victimised and that we will not have penal clauses whereby people will be afraid to make legitimate complaints because of the possibility of having to pay compensation. While it may be said that a complainant may be successful in his claim, there is always the chance that he may be on the losing side. The enacting of this legislation would put us back in the dark ages and no one would avail of his rights under section 9.

I agree with Deputy Esmonde that this measure would probably prevent cranks from taking proceedings but we must not legislate on the basis that some cranks may pursue certain claims. The vast majority of trade unionists are responsible persons. Only a very small section would bring proceedings on the basis outlined by Deputy Esmonde. Therefore, the Bill is defective in this respect and I trust that the Minister will consider the situation further with a view to providing for the availability of moneys to meet the costs involved in bringing a case.

Earlier we discussed the question of an appeal going to the High Court on a point of law. Again, the person who would have to pay would be the complainant if the findings were not in his favour. In the pursuit of any claim there is the risk of not being successful. A complainant may be successful for 99.9 per cent of the way but the other 0.1 per cent might be the deciding factor in the case being lost. This part of the Bill is outrageous and I ask the Minister to withdraw it and to ensure that people wishing to pursue a legitimate claim can do so without the fear of, perhaps, losing their homes or a substantial amount of their savings.

The Deputy is incorrect in thinking that there obtains any of the dire consequences which, by some extraordinary interpretation, he has read into the Bill, This clause is supplemental to section 9 whereby a member of a trade union has certain rights in the matter of complaint, for instance, the grounds on which he may complain that procedures outlined in this Bill have not been complied with. It is standard provision and is in line with that obtaining in respect of witnesses appearing in the High Court and there is always this provision against a complainant who brings forward a case that is based on a frivolous pretext. The complainant is protected fully under section 9. He may complain that the matter in which a vote on a resolution is taken does not satisfy the conditions in section 3 (1) which we considered exhaustively this afternoon. We satisfied the Deputy that the provisions in section 3 (1) give ample grounds for believing that there would be a fair vote and that all concerned in the vote would be in full possession of the facts relating to amalgamation. This schedule simply outlines the rights that the registrar has to ensure that the complainant complies fully with the provisions of section 9. That section simply outlines how the registrar may, on request by a complainant, carry out the duties fully which are his. Paragraph 1 (f), about which the Deputy is so worried, is there merely to ensure that the rights of the complainant are not abused. In legislation such as this in which we give such liberties to a complainant we must also comply with standard practice and guard against these rights being abused.

Paragraph 1 (e) provides that the registrar may order the whole or any part of the expenses of hearing a complaint to be paid either out of the funds of the trade union or by the complainant. What does that mean? Does it mean that in the pursuance of a legitimate complaint, the complainant might have to pay the expenses incurred?

It is unrealistic and absurd for the Deputy to suggest that the registrar could ignore the clearly formulated provisions laid down here in relation to complaints made to him. The registrar will be the servant of the provisions of this legislation and will abide faithfully by them. Paragraph 1 (f) is put in merely to guard against a complainant taking liberties with the legislation as set out. It is simply to guard against the very odd case of a person initiating proceedings on a frivolous pretext.

While the question of frivolous complaints may arise one cannot write into legislation penal clauses that would prevent legitimate grievances being pursued. Paragraph 1 (f) reads that the registrar may:

...order the trade union to pay to the complainant out of the funds of the union, or the complaint to pay to the union, either a specified sum in respect of the costs incurred by the complainant or the union (as the case may be) or the taxed amount of those costs.

It goes further than that in paragraph 2.

Perhaps if the Deputy is worried about paragraph 2 he will wait until we come to that clause before expressing his concern.

It involves another penal clause in that not only are the expenses in relation to the complainant to be covered by him but he must also cover witnesses' expenses and these could be substantial. If the Minister wishes to guard against frivolous complaints he should write that into the Bill but the majority of complaints can be expected to be legitimate. Under one section we are affording a person the right to bring a complaint to the registrar while under another provision we are penalising him to the extent that would possibly rule out his ability to proceed with the case. Of course there is no reason to believe that every complaint made to the registrar would be successful but the point is that in respect of unsuccessful cases, the complainant will have to pay to the unions the costs involved. However, what would happen in the case of a man being unable to pay the costs? Would he be imprisoned or what action could be taken against him? This aspect of the Bill is unreasonable and negatives the trouble the Minister has gone to in section 9 to ensure that every person would be included in so far as the rights of a member of a trade union to make a complaint to the registrar are concerned. Although some claims may be lost, we can take it that they will all be initiated in the belief that they are justified.

Section 3 lays down criteria relating to the holding of a ballot and these criteria must be complied with. In section 9 there are further rights for the dissatisfied member, the person who is dissatisfied with the methodology of the voting. Deputy Dowling's thesis is correct only if we imagine that the registrar takes leave of his senses, if we imagine him becoming not the servant of the legislation but its enemy. Under this legislation the registrar in partnership with the person making the complaint is there to see that this legislation is carried out in the letter and in the spirit. If we had a situation where the registrar was left without the protection of paragraph (1) (e) and (f) in the Schedule it would mean that the registrar would have no protection and would be inundated with frivolous cases. The Deputy will agree that this legislation is designed for the person with a genuine case based on section 3 or section 9. The registrar is there to carry out the wishes of the individual and the Deputy need not worry that this legislation militates in any way against a person with a case based on the provisions of this legislation. I am informed that this is the standard procedure and that where extensive rights are given to an individual there should, for reasons of prudence, be some safeguards for the registrar. The Deputy may see that under this legislation the registrar has so many duties that he requires to be protected against frivolous cases.

Could the Minister indicate what is a frivolous case? The situation would be that unless the person was absolutely successful— and his case might be 70 per cent, 80 per cent or even 90 per cent— he would be liable to these penalties.

No. It is frivolous because it is not based on the provisions of this legislation and the registrar knows the provisions.

If an individual produces what he regards as a just claim——

Is it accepted that the complainant and the registrar would have something in common, a language, and that they would be able to read the provisions and see if the claim was based on those provisions? You are not talking of people who do not understand what is there.

I understand what is there and I know that if I bring a witness in a case that is not 100 per cent successful, I have to pay the witness's costs in addition to the costs of the trade union involved and these costs could be very substantial. The Minister could include "frivolous cases" in the legislation. He wants to ensure that if members who have, or feel they have a legitimate case— and perhaps are legally advised that it is a legitimate claim—which they wish to pursue, proceed and are not 100 per cent successful, they will have to pay the expenses of the trade union and the witnesses involved. I hold that this section will ensure that no complaints will come before the registrar.

If the Deputy looks at paragraph 4 of the Schedule he will find that the complainant may be awarded costs even though he loses his case.

I am talking about a complaint to the registrar and I am saying that people will not make complaints now because of their fear that they will be called upon to pay the costs.

The Chair must point out that there has been a good deal of duplication of debate.

The rights of the individual are very important.

The Chair understands that.

There are penal clauses in the Bill. This is not the first Bill to come before the House in recent times containing penal clauses that could affect the rights of the individual trade unionist. In this case I believe that the person who is entitled to make a complaint should be able to pursue that complaint to the ultimate without any fear of having to pay costs because somebody regarded it as a frivolous case. The Minister says he must guard against frivolous complaints but if he wants to do that he should write it into the Bill. I want to know what would happen to a member of a trade union who was unable to meet the costs awarded against him. What action would be taken against him?

An individual would never be in the predicament of being unable to meet the costs awarded against him if he did not bring a case based on a frivolous pretext and we are defining a frivolous pretext as one not in accordance with the provisions of this legislation. The object of the Bill is to facilitate mergers and amalgamations by the unions willing to merge or amalgamate by ridding the legislation of obstacles to such mergers. Having got rid of these obstacles in legislation going right back to the 1871 Act, we are substituting the provisions of this Bill, making sure that there are guarantees in the legislation giving the person involved in the balloting procedure full information and justice and the right of complaint to the registrar. We have gone over that before.

And we all agree on that.

The overall objectives of the legislation is that worthwhile genuine amalgamations should take place. If we do not have a provision outlawing frivolous pretexts for utilising the machinery of the legislation, bringing cases on a frivolous pretext, we are indefinitely delaying mergers and amalgamations and so defeating again one of the main purposes of the legislation. All the problems the Deputy has in regard to this legislation are adequately catered for between section 3 and section 9 and the paragraphs in the Schedule. He must understand that the registrar is there to carry out the provisions of this legislation.

I am concerned about what would happen an individual member of a trade union.

The Deputy is repeating himself.

Surely we are entitled to an answer on this very important aspect of a union member's rights. We want to know exactly what would happen in the event of a union member's inability to pay costs awarded against him.

This is the fourth time the Deputy has raised this question.

I might have to ask the Minister a dozen times if he does not answer.

The Chair is pointing out that the Deputy will not be allowed to repeat——

Does that mean that we cannot fully discuss this matter and get an answer to a question?

There is no closure in that sense but there is provision that there should not be repetition of debate.

The Minister did not answer the question. I want to know what would happen an individual against whom costs were awarded in pursuance of a legitimate claim—in his opinion—and he is unable to pay them? What happens that individual? Is he sent to jail?

I have indicated adequately, to the best of my ability.

The Minister gave us a lecture about section 3.

We have been talking about the rights of individuals since 11 o'clock this morning.

Does Deputy Dowling accept the Schedule to the Bill?

No, I am not finished with it yet. This is only paragraph 1.

The Schedule to a Bill is always discussed in its entirety.

When I tried to discuss it in its entirety I was told: "When we reach paragraph 2 we can discuss that."

The Chair did not say any such thing.

I am not saying the Chair said it. The Minister said it.

The Chair points out for the information of the Deputy and for the information of anybody else that the Schedule to a Bill is taken in its entirety.

I accept that. We have not been able to get from the Minister an indication of what would happen to a person or to a trade union who are not able to pay the costs awarded against them.

The Deputy is going back again.

Surely one must know what is implied in the Bill before one can accept or reject it? Surely the Minister should give an indication as to what the punishment would be in the event of a person being unable to pay or whether a person could disregard the demand for expenses?

I think the Deputy thinks he is upstairs deciding on a presidential candidate.

I just want a straight answer.

He is confusing his locale.

The Minister wants to ensure that there will be no complaints made to the registrar. This penal clause will not aid the amalgamation of unions. Union members will know that, notwithstanding the fact that they have the right to appeal to the registrar if they pursue a legitimate claim, they may be taxed with costs and they do not know what the consequences will be in the event of their failure to meet those costs.

Does the Deputy wish to discuss any further portion of the Schedule?

Yes. Paragraph 2 will impede a person who wishes to call witnesses and the calling of witnesses is a very important part of any inquiry. The Schedule states:

A person who, on the application of any person, is required to attend before the Registrar as a witness in proceedings on a complaint under section 9 shall be entitled to be paid by the person on whose application he is so required——

(a) such sum in respect of loss of time and travelling expenses as he would be entitled to on being served with a summons to attend as a witness in the High Court, and

(b) if he duly attends, a sum equal to any further allowances to which he would be entitled if attending as a witness in proceedings in the High Court.

And this is only before the registrar.

Paragraph 3 (1) reads:

Subject to subparagraph (2) of this paragraph, if any person without reasonable excuse fails or refuses to comply with a requisition of the registrar under paragraph 1 (a) to 1 (c) of this Schedule or any order of the registrar made in pursuance of paragraph 1 (d) of this Schedule, he shall be liable on summary conviction to a fine not exceeding fifty pounds or to imprisonment for a term not exceeding three months, or to both such fine and such imprisonment.

Paragraph 3 (2) reads:

A person shall not be convicted of an offence under this paragraph by reason of failure or refusal on his part to comply with a requisition to attend as a witness before the registrar unless any sum to which he is entitled under paragraph 2 (a) of this Schedule has been paid or tendered.

That means that if I want to call a witness I have, out of my own pocket, in the pursuance of a legitimate claim, to pay a witness the amount involved beforehand. This is absolutely unjust. In the pursuance of justice one must be permitted to call witnesses, and it is completely irresponsible to expect a union member to be saddled not alone with his own expenses but also with the expenses of witnesses. There is no protection whatever for trade unionists in this Bill.

If a person does not attend—

...he shall be liable on summary conviction to a fine not exceeding fifty pounds or to imprisonment for a term not exceeding three months, or to both such fine and such imprisonment.

If a person fails to meet the costs what will happen to him? Will he be subjected to imprisonment? Will his home, furniture or belongings be seized? I would have hoped that the Minister would have eliminated penal clauses such as those. The whole emphasis of the Minister is on frivolous complaints. Of course there will be frivolous complaints but there will also be legitimate complaints and we should not allow the few to interfere with the rights of the many. Of course the registrar will get frivolous complaints, just as every Member of this House does, but we also get legitimate complaints and we must pursue all of them to find out whether they are frivolous or legitimate. Who decides whether the complaint is frivolous? Is it the registrar and, if he decides it is frivolous, are costs awarded against the individual? I would ask the Minister to have another look at this. I thought he would ensure that no injustice would be done to a worker. Under this, people will be victimised and deprived of a right. We all know that many a man was prevented from pursuing a legitimate case in our courts because he did not have the necessary financial backing, notwithstanding the fact that his case was a good one.

While the Minister claims to be a champion of the worker, he brings in legislation that will deprive the worker of his rights. This Bill will be a deciding factor in some people's minds in determining whether or not they will vote in favour of a merger. If I were pursuing a legitimate claim as a member of my union I would want to know if I were to be burdened with extensive costs and whether I should lose my home or my belongings or what action would be taken against me if I was unable to pay the cost levied against me.

The Minister should give us a reasonable explanation of how he will determine what is a frivolous case and what is a responsible case. There are cases which, even at a late stage, appear to be substantial and to be what the Minister would regard as non-frivolous but the case would be awarded against the complainant. Surely it is unreasonable to expect those people, who are trying to protect themselves and the fellow members of their union, to pay their own cost.

I have been making the point, that parallel with the rights given to the complainant in the legislation, there must be protection given to the registrar so that he can effectively carry out his duties under this Bill and devote his time to genuine complaints. Genuine complaints would be those grounded on the provisions of this legislation; frivolous complaints would be those totally outside its provisions. The registrar's time could be taken up by people who knew their case was not grounded on such provisions, and by their importuning of the registrar and calling on his aid they would deprive genuine cases of his attention.

It all boils down to whether Deputy Dowling believes that the registrar, who is there to carry out the provisions of this legislation, would award costs against the person with a genuine complaint based on the provisions of this Bill. I do not think he could or would do that. In fact it would not be possible for him to do so, having regard to this legislation. Paragraph 3. (1) which so worries the Deputy relates only to persons who fail to obey the registrar's request (a) for the attendance of witnesses, for the production of documents, for the attendance of the complainant and the discovery of documents. All these powers are necessary for the registrar to determine a complaint under section 9. Paragraph 3 (1) which provides for offences relates only to those things and not to the award of costs under section 1 (e) and (f). I have every confidence that the registrar will interpret this legislation in accordance with its provisions.

The Minister has indicated that a frivolous case is one that is totally outside the provisions of this legislation. Surely the registrar would know at an early stage that a case was completely outside the provisions of the legislation and would then dismiss it and would not involve himself in proceedings which would necessitate the calling of witnesses. Surely he would decide that there was no case to pursue.

The registrar is under an obligation to investigate and it may be necessary for the investigation, to call in these witnesses. That is a possibility and that is why it is written in here.

If the registrar sets in train the calling of additional assistance, he must not regard the case as frivolous at that stage.

It will not be frivolous when you consider the penalties that are there for calling a case on frivolous grounds.

The Minister has not defined what a reasonable case would be.

The Deputy has sought all day for clarification in layman's language and, in layman's language, a frivolous case would be one not covered by this legislation.

That is exactly what I thought I heard the Minister say before. Surely the registrar would say at the initial stage that the case was not in accord with the provisions of the legislation and would not pursue it. He must be able to show there is no case to pursue at that stage. If the registrar wishes to bring in additional staff and additional assistance he must regard the case as having some substance, and, therefore, the complainant should not be taxed for costs if, in the last analysis, the case is decided against him, because this would certainly prevent people from availing of their rights under section 9. Paragraph 1 (e) provides:

order the whole or any part of the expenses of hearing the complaint, as certified by him, to be paid, either out of the funds of the trade union or by the complainant.

Surely that is unreasonable. The registrar should at an early stage be able to indicate to the person making the complaint that it was outside the scope of the Bill and, therefore, he could not pursue it. The registrar would be foolish to pursue complaints that would be outside the provisions of the Bill, because it would not be his job to do so. His job is to pursue only cases within the provisions of the Bill. Therefore, if the case was frivolous it could be dismissed at an early stage. If additional advice were needed by the registrar, it would show that there was a doubt in his mind about the factors surrounding the complaint.

I would not like to see trade unionists being victimised to the extent they seem to be victimised under this paragraph. We want an assurance from the Minister that the ordinary trade unionist who wishes to pursue what he believes is a valid complaint will not be victimised by having to pay the costs of the case, which could be very substantial. The Minister must agree that it could be reasonable for a person to call witnesses on his behalf.

Is the Deputy on a frivolous pretext at this stage or not? He said witnesses were not necessary. Now he is calling witnesses. On what basis?

I had indicated that it is necessary at times in the pursuance of a case to call witnesses.

The Minister agrees.

But the Minister does not agree that the person who calls witnesses should not be asked to pay their expenses.

Surely we must have some logic here. If a person is calling witnesses he is basing his case on the provisions of this legislation. The Deputy is actually demolishing his preliminary remarks far more convincingly than I could do it. He brings in a frivolous pretext. The job of the registrar will be to deal with what is in this legislation.

He would be a foolish man to go outside the provisions of this legislation because that will not be his job.

We are arguing a hypothetical case because I cannot see a possibility arising of someone bringing a case not founded on the provisions in this legislation. Such a case would be a frivolous case. Because of the Fall there is a certain proportion of wickedness in the world and, because of that wickedness, it is necessary to have a certain penal element in legislation. There are great liberties and rights given to an individual making a complaint under this legislation. To ensure against any abuse of these rights we have these provisions protecting the registrar. The Deputy says the registrar, in his wisdom, will see that no witnesses are necessary when a case that has no substance in it is brought. If a person, however, brings a frivolous case the registrar would be forced to go through all the steps required in a genuine case and the purpose of this provision is to ensure he is not forced into that position. The Schedule is as much in the interests of the genuine complainant as it is in the interests of the proper utilisation of the registrar's time. I would urge the Deputy to withdraw his opposition because the case about which he is talking simply will not stand up.

Perhaps I was not too clear. Earlier the Minister indicated that a frivolous case was a case totally outside the provisions of this legislation. If that is so, then I accept that, but that is not what the Bill states. Then the Minister goes on to say that it does not really mean that, that it means something else. If a frivolous case is totally outside the provisions of the legislation any intelligent registrar would be able to convince the complainant that that is the position.

The Minister also agrees that the bulk of cases would not be frivolous. They would be made by responsible trade unionists. Now there can be no guarantee in the pursuance of any particular complaint that the complaint will be successful. There may be a doubt and the complainant may not get the benefit of the doubt. If he does not, he will be subject to all the penal clauses in this Bill. He will have to pay all the costs. This will prevent responsible people from making legitimate complaints. It is a very serious matter and I would appeal to the Minister to consider this particular aspect.

I would also press the Minister for an answer to the previous question: what will happen in the event of a trade unionist finding himself unable to pay the costs? The fact that he would lose the case would not necessarily mean the complaint was frivolous. It might have major substance. It might be a borderline case. But there might be some doubt and the complainant might not get the benefit of the doubt. The majority of complainants will be responsible trade unionists and therefore the majority of the complaints will not be frivolous. There should be some provision to protect the trade unionist.

Very often in legislation we have to probe deeply. We have to pursue the matter to the bitter end and we may finally discover we will not be successful. But this is normal procedure. It is the normal procedure that must be followed in all cases where we give rights to an individual to complain. The Minister is very unreasonable in writing down this situation. He has changed his position on several occasions as to what might or might not be a frivolous complaint. As I said, a competent registrar should be able to convince a complainant at an early stage that the complaint has no substance, if it has no substance. This provision will prevent genuine complaints being made because of its penal nature. If a right is given, then an individual should not be penalised for exercising that right and neither should he be inhibited from pursuing that right or from seeking rectification of a legitimate grievance. The Minister will have to change his attitude. It is most offensive. It will certainly be offensive to the great bulk of responsible trade unionists.

I hope the Minister will see some reason in the points made here this evening. Will he re-examine the Schedule before Report Stage and ensure that a person who brings a frivolous case will have to meet the costs? If a man makes a deliberate effort to obstruct he should be called upon to meet certain costs. At the moment, a person who brings a genuine case will be asked to pay the expenses if he is not 100 per cent successful. The Minister has not told us what will happen to a trade unionist if costs are awarded against him and he finds himself unable to pay them. This is a very important point.

In the context of this legislation, costs would only be awarded against the person bringing a frivolous case. The registrar would not award costs against a person who lost a genuine case. It is inconceivable that costs would be awarded against such a person. I think we have gone over this ground sufficiently now. The penal clauses are necessary to ensure that there is no abuse by a tiny minority. This is standard procedure and it is important from the point of view of the registrar and the genuine complainant.

In answer to the Deputy's request that I should reconsider this Bill. I think he will agree that I have readily accepted any suggestions he made which I thought worthy of being incorporated in the Bill. I am satisfied that the Schedule meets what we wish it to meet. In no case is there a penalty against a genuine complainant. I hope the Deputy will not consider me unreasonable when I say that the Schedule is satisfactory in every respect.

When I was sitting on the benches opposite it was remarkable to find a Minister accepting any amendment put forward by the Opposition. I believe that, if a reasonable proposition is put forward by the Opposition, it should be accepted. Any legislation is the product of this House sitting as a legislature. I do not suffer from any false pride in thinking that every clause in a Bill must be my own creation. I am willing to have every Deputy participate.

I see no point in some of the criticisms of the Schedule which the Deputy is making. It may not be intentional, but the tenor of his remarks is inclined to discredit the role of the registrar. We would not like to cast any slur on the impartiality of a respected member of the legal profession. He is chosen for his impartiality and he will be the servant of this legislation, its interpreter. It could not be accepted that he would award costs against a genuine complainant even though he lost his case which was based on a genuine ground. People must lose cases in the ordinary way when there is disagreement on an interpretation. A frivolous pretext is not based on any sane interpretation of the provisions of this legislation. This would happen in very few cases, if any, but we must have safeguards against them in the interests of the genuine complainant and of the registrar.

The Minister is now saying that if a person is not successful in a legitimate claim costs will not be awarded against him. Is that correct?

Even though people base their case on a genuine interpretation of the law they may lose. I find it inconceivable that the registrar would award costs against such people. The penal clauses are in the Schedule to deal with people who base their case on a frivolous pretext. This legislation defends the genuine complainant. It would be very unprofitable for us to wonder what would happen in this case or in that case. The Deputy accuses me of being dogmatic in other respects, rather unfairly, but I can be dogmatic in saying that a person who brings a frivolous case will suffer the full rigours of the Schedule, and rightly so.

I agree that a person who brings a frivolous case which is intended to obstruct or impede an amalgamation should have to pay the costs. The Minister has defined a frivolous case. He has now indicated that if a genuine case is lost, it is not necessary for the registrar to award costs against the complainant. That is not in the Bill. If there were guidelines for the registrar I would be quite happy. I wanted an assurance from the Minister that a person who lost a legitimate case would not have to pay the witnesses' costs or the union's costs. Can I take it that a person who pursues a legitimate claim will not have to pay the witnesses' costs or the union's costs?

The witnesses would have to be paid from some source.

So the witnesses will have to be paid in any event.

Witnesses would have to be paid because this is the High Court procedure.

Now we are told that he is relieved of the responsibility of compensating the union but he is saddled with the responsibility of paying the witnesses. In the event of a trade unionist being unable to pay, what will be the consequences? Would he be subject to a jail sentence or seizure of property? How would the cost be recovered by the registrar?

I have said that under this legislation it would be unthinkable that the registrar would award costs against a genuine complainant.

Would the Minister write that into the Bill?

No, I would not. I have spoken at length on the rights and obligations of the genuine complainant in this legislation. It is equally important that there be safeguards against those who would abuse that power and waste his time and that of genuine complainants.

We all agree that frivolous complaints should be regarded as being deliberately obstructive to the cause of mergers. But it is written into this legislation that costs must be met by the person making a legitimate complaint if he calls a witness to substantiate the facts. Does the Minister not think that is unreasonable?

The Minister indicated earlier that my reference to registrars could be regarded as offensive. The Minister clearly indicated that the registrar should be able to make up his mind at an early stage as to whether a complaint was frivolous. Although he does not have to pay union expenses, he must pay the expenses of the witness. In the event of a witness being called upon to meet expenses, what will happen if he is unable to pay? How will the union be compensated for the expenses paid by them which would normally be paid by the complainant? Would the officials of the unions be regarded as witnesses for the purposes of the complainant being called upon to meet the expenses? Would he be responsible for the expenses of the witnesses called by the registrar, even if they are trade union officials?

The registrar, not he, would be responsible.

Can the Minister answer my last question?

I cannot follow the Deputy into Green Street Courthouse——

What would happen if a person was unable to pay?

Unable to pay what? In the case of a frivolous pretext on that?

It need not be a frivolous pretext. The frivolous pretext is now defined as being outside the scope of——

I would regard it as unthinkable that a person would have costs awarded against him where he had brought a genuine case based on the provisions of this legislation and lost it.

I brought a case to court which I regarded as being substantial——

The Deputy did not have this legislation to back him.

I lost and had to pay the costs. Unless it is clearly indicated in the Bill, the trade unionist will be called upon to pay the costs. This will be a lawyers' paradise.

No, it is to end that situation——

Legal men have crippled a number of unions. Members' money flowed freely into the hands of the lawyers. I am not blaming the lawyers. More luck to them if they can confuse people about the interpretation of Acts of Parliament. We should ensure that Bills are couched in such terms that they will be easily read and understood by the persons to whom they are directed, that is, the trade unionists. If this legislation were aimed at legal bodies, it could be couched in any legal phraseology desired. But as this is directed to the ordinary worker, the ordinary trade unionist, who may have little or no education, it should be couched in words easily understood by him.

Is the Schedule agreed to?

I will agree with it at the moment but intend taking it up again on Report Stage.

Question put and agreed to.
TITLE.

I move amendment No. 17:

In page 2, line 9, to delete "and for" and substitute the following: "to amend and extend the Trade Union Acts, 1871 to 1971, and to provide for".

The effect of this amendment is to change the Long Title of the Bill. The change arises from the inclusion in the Bill of a provision relating to British-based unions.

Amendment agreed to.
Title, as amended agreed to.

Acting Chairman

Pursuant to Standing Order 95 (3) I have to report specially to the Dáil that the Committee has amended the title to read as follows:—

An Act to amend the law relating to the amalgamation of trade unions and the alteration of the name of a trade union, to provide for transfer of engagements from one trade union to another, to amend and extend the Trade Union Acts, 1871 to 1971, and to provide for other matters connected with the aforesaid matters.

Bill reported with amendments.
Report Stage ordered for Wednesday, 11th December, 1974.
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