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Dáil Éireann debate -
Wednesday, 27 Nov 1974

Vol. 276 No. 3

Local Loans Fund (Amendment) Bill, 1974: Second and Subsequent Stages.

I move: "That the Bill be now read a Second Time."

The purpose of this Bill is to increase, from £600 million to £1,000 million, the statutory limit on issues from the Local Loans Fund through which Exchequer loans are made available to local authorities to finance essential capital services.

When the Local Loans Fund was established in 1935, a statutory limit of £5 million was set on issues from the fund. The limit has had to be increased periodically over the years by successive enactments. The present figure of £600 million was fixed in 1972.

For many years the local authorities, including regional health boards, vocational educational committees and harbour authorities, have been heavily dependent on this fund to finance their capital projects. In 1973-74, over 90 per cent of the authorities' capital expenditure was met from the fund. At 31st March, 1974, total issues from the fund amounted to £498 million, of which £383 million, or 77 per cent of the total, was provided for housing, including £245 million for the building of local authority dwellings, £109 million for private house purchase loans and over £28 million for supplementary housing grants. Water supply and sewerage schemes accounted for a further £69 million, while the balance of £46 million was provided for hospitals, vocational schools, harbour works, libraries, fire stations, swimming pools and other amenities.

Issues from the fund have increased dramatically in recent years, due partly to the expanded capital programme carried out by the local authorities and partly to rising costs. The annual total has risen from £49 million in 1972-3 to an estimated £98 million in 1974-5. In that period annual advances from the fund for local authority dwellings have risen million, largely reflecting the progress being made towards achieving the Government's target of 8,000 local authority dwellings per year. Issues for house purchase loans have risen even more rapidly in the same period, that is, from £8 million to £34 million. A significant rise in the demand for these loans was to be expected following the stepping-up of the national housing programme to 25,000 dwellings a year; the demand has been accentuated by the increases approved in 1973 in the maximum loans and income limits for borrowers and by the unwelcome downturn in the availability of mortgage finance from the building societies which had become the major source of house purchase loans in recent years. Annual issues for water and sewerage schemes have risen in the two years from £8 million to an estimated £15 million to meet the expanded needs of both housing and industry.

An estimated £75 million is to be provided from the fund in the current nine-month financial period, bringing total issues to over £570 million by 31st December, 1974. Since the annual rate of issues is now about £100 million, the present limit of £600 million is expected to be reached in the early part of next year. It will be necessary to raise the limit substantially to provide for the estimated capital requirements of the local authorities over the next few years. Accordingly a new limit of £1,000 million is proposed in the Bill which I commend to the House.

We support this measure. I suppose it is an indication of the extent to which inflation has gripped our economy that after two years the Minister is obliged to come here with a proposal to increase the maximum figure allowable by £400 million, whereas the previous increase after a period of four years raised the maximum limit by £200 million. Some of the increase, of course, is explained by increased activity but there is no doubt that the bulk of the very substantial increase involved is explained by inflation and anticipated inflation.

The bulk of the money involved here, approximately 75 per cent, is devoted to housing requirements in one form or another as the Minister indicated. In particular, the provision of money for SDA loans is involved here and I would again urge the Minister to look again at the limits applied. I say "again" because members of my party from time to time have urged the Minister and his colleagues to review the limits being applied in the case of SDA loans. The existing limits are £2,350 as an upper income limit and £4,500 as an upper loan limit. These were set in September, 1973 and it is clear to most people that these limits are now unrealistic.

The Minister may say that the number of applications has increased and this is true but he has given the explanation in what he has just told us. Quoting from memory, he mentioned the unwelcome decline in the moneys available from building societies which had been the main source of supply of money for housing loans. I do not want to discuss why this is so but it is a fact acknowledged all round and acknowledged by the Minister today that there has been a drop in the availability of money from building societies. That being so, the demand for SDA loans is increasing. In practice, because this is the only source from which people can get loans in many cases, people are applying for them, getting the maximum loan and finding that it does not go anywhere near the amount they require and they are having to borrow in addition from other sources, usually at quite high rates of interest.

The position is becoming quite impossible for a number of would-be house purchasers. Not alone is hardship being imposed on them but the consequential effect on employment in the building industry is quite noticeable. The Minister and his colleagues—particularly recently in the White Paper—have proclaimed that one of the primary objectives of Government policy at this time is the maintenance of employment. I urge very strongly that if there is to be any substance in that aim, if it is to be any more than empty phrases, he must take action to ensure in conjunction with his colleague, the Minister for Local Government, that these limits I have mentioned are increased. We strongly urge that the income limit be raised to £3,000 and the loan limit to £6,000. This is not unreasonable in present circumstances. I would strongly urge the Minister to consider this action and to consider it quickly if he wants to take one practical step towards trying to maintain employment.

Perhaps the Minister would give me a little information on the following matter. I see in table 5 of the capital budget for 1974 that the estimate of the amount to be provided for the Local Loans Fund from capital repayments and Exchequer advances for 1974-75 is £86.55 million and for the nine-months' period April to December, 1974, it is estimated at £66.13 million. Could the Minister inform us whether those estimated limits are being increased or reduced and whether the authorisation sought in this Bill for increasing the overall limit on the Local Loans Fund will contribute to making available more money for the Local Loans Fund than was provided for in the estimates I have referred to? I imagine the Minister will have that information offhand. If not, I would ask that he furnish it to me in due course.

Subject to the remarks I have made, to which I hope the Minister will pay some attention, we have no objection to and, in fact, support strongly this measure.

I should like to welcome this Bill. The work being done by local authorities in providing loans for people to build their own houses is highly important. I compliment the Minister for providing the necessary finance to the local authorities to enable this work to be carried out.

The present limit of £4,500 could be increased but I would take this opportunity of saying here, as somebody with some practical experience, that people are able to build bungalows and two-storey houses, but especially bungalows, either by employing local small building contractors or through direct labour with the loan of £4,500. While it is not over-generous, it is certainly sufficient to enable the work to be carried out. It is important that this should be said in this House. Good small building contractors—and there are a great many of them throughout the country—are able to provide good substantial bungalows, excellent houses, for young married couples who avail of the local authority loans. My reason for saying this is that many large builders in this city and throughout the country are saying that the loans are not sufficient. I believe that if a builder is prepared to take a reasonable margin of profit this loan, together with the grants, is sufficient to provide a good substantial house for a young married couple.

There has been a lot of criticism of the amount of the loan. I believe it is reasonable and fair. With prices increasing as they are, the loans may have to be looked at and the Minister should consider looking at them now to see whether they can be increased. However, good houses are being built at present with this loan of £4,500, together with the grants that are available.

The Deputy will appreciate that, while what he says may well be true in his constituency, it would not be true of the situation in a lot of urban areas at least.

If one has a good builder who is prepared to do a reasonable day's work and take a reasonable margin of profit in many instances throughout Laois-Offaly bungalows are being provided for those amounts. They are excellent houses. I have first-hand knowledge of this from the local builders and from meeting people and being in their houses. That is the truth.

There is a difference, of course, in the cost of sites.

The cost of sites is the one thing in which there is a difference as between the cities and larger towns and my own area. I would agree with that.

I would ask the Minister to communicate with local authorities and encourage them to allocate a certain amount of money each year to enable people with an income of under £2,350 to purchase secondhand houses. At present a person who is under this limit may find a house going at a reasonable price and would be in a position to pay a small deposit. He may not have money invested and so will not be considered by a building society. Such a person would be anxious to obtain a county council loan because of the attractive interest rates. The Minister should set aside a certain amount to each county council for this purpose. I am not even looking for a large amount. If the Minister wishes to have a stipulation that such people obtaining loans should be married with a family I would go along with it, but it is essential that local authorities should have some power to enable secondhand houses to be bought.

I am sorry to interrupt the Deputy but I am anxious that he should not stray too far into an area which is clearly not the responsibility of the Minister. That would be Local Government.

I bow to the ruling of the Chair and I will not pursue the matter further.

I am pleased to see that large amounts of money continue to be provided for water and sewerage facilities. It is absolutely essential that the Government ensure that water supplies are improved. In many of our larger towns there are serious water supply problems and as large an amount of money as possible should be provided for water supply, because this will have beneficial effects on many different aspects of our life—housing, schools, industries and so on.

Our main roads are excellent but there should be increased allocations for secondary routes and smaller roads. Very good work is being carried out by the local authorities but extra money is needed.

I welcome the Minister's speech and the new limit of £1,000 million which he is introducing in it. It should give increased confidence to local authorities in regard to the availability of finance in these times of rampant inflation.

There are some aspects of local authority developments to which I would like to refer. I refer particularly, as Deputy Colley and Deputy Enright did, to the question of housing, house purchase loans and income levels. Reading the Minister's speech one gathers that the most dramatic increase has been in the area of house purchase loans. Between 1972-73 and 1974-75, a brief spell of two years, the increase in house purchase loans was from £8 million to £34 million. I welcome this particularly. Indeed, it has been my experience as a member of the local authority that until relatively recently there were a great many people who were not even aware of the fact that such loans were available from the local authorities. There is much greater appreciation of this at present as these figures illustrate.

However, consideration must be given to the possibility of increasing the limit which at present stands at £4,500. Compared with what the position was two years ago, it may seem a considerable amount of money, but taking the present rate of inflation into account, particularly in the building industry, which is affected by timber and labour costs, a case can be made for increasing this sum past this point. I can agree with Deputy Enright's point about the cheaper building costs in certain areas. This I found to be absolutely true, but I take Deputy Colley's point that in the cities there is an entirely different situation. It is true that it is in the smaller areas one gets vast differences in costs and in contract prices between the smaller country builders and many of the larger companies, and I have seen houses built quite cheaply in these times and under the circumstances which he described.

The house purchase loans scheme is vitally necessary in rural districts. The Minister referred to the building society problem and the restraints and restrictions that have existed in that area. There is another problem as well, and it is tied up with the income limits of local authorities for housing loans. I would welcome an increase here, too, for a particular reason: it is possible that taking the present income limit into account people earning above that limit may in theory be in a position to obtain loans from building societies, but you find in rural Ireland that outside urban areas of certain population sizes building societies will not lend money to applicants regardless of income level and regardless of the capacity to repay loans. Therefore that factor should be taken into account, and I would welcome an increase in the income limit in addition to an increase in the amount of capital which might be made available to individual applicants.

There are one or two points regarding the administration of the fund to which I would like to refer briefly, in the areas mentioned by the Minister, the areas of housing loans, water and sewerage schemes. There has been much comment about what is termed undue centralisation, with which I agree completely. But it has been my experience that this is nowhere more evident than in the simplest administrative details of housing, water and sewerage loans where we get the most appalling bureaucracy, where the tiniest loans amounting to £150 and up to £300 go through a mass of documentation, a great deal of which is entirely unnecessary. A farmer requiring a water and sewerage loan for, say, £150 must apply to the Department in Dublin to send him an application form, which he completes and returns to that Department. The Department, in turn, communicate with their inspector to call to look at the scheme. The inspector recommunicates with his Department. The applicant, when the job is partly completed, informs the Department who again communicate with the inspector, who inspects the first stage of the operation, for example, in a new house situation, and recommunicates with his Department, when the applicant gets the first stage of the local authority grant from the Department. The Department, in turn, notify the local authority that the first stage of the grant has been paid, and the local authority then pays the applicant the supplementary section of the grant. All of this operation is duplicated at the final stage of work, leading to the most appalling amount of bureaucracy.

I appreciate the relevance of the Deputy's remarks in relation to grants, but much of what he is saying now would be more appropriate to the Estimate for Local Government.

I take your point and I apologise if I have digressed. Might I finally add that all the administration concerned with the mundane matters I have described could be carried out entirely within the local authorities? There is not much more I wish to say other than, broadly speaking, that our county councils have increased functions. This increase in the availability of capital should give encouragement in this area. The traditional role of our county councils has been fairly negative, and it was only the implementation of the Local Government (Planning and Development) Act of five or six years ago which gave local authorities, if they chose to be enlightened and positive in approach, the opportunity of playing a fundamental role, a role they simply did not have the opportunity of playing up to that point. Some of our county councils had been fairly enlightened in taking a positive role within a particular area. County Mayo, due to enlightened manage-ment among other things, assumed powers beyond the traditional and fairly negative role. This new concept of a county council as a development corporation with all the problems that exist throughout the country because of dramatic developments necessitating a change into urban centres from what were traditionally rural societies is posting problems and the confidence which should be instilled into local authorities as a result of this particular fund increase is most welcome.

I thank the House for the manner in which they have received this Bill. I appreciate that people are, of course, all too anxious that the State would maintain the supply of money for essential purposes. They may be assured of this Government's determination to provide money for the very necessary expenditures financed from the Local Loans Fund.

I can sympathise with those who have asked for increases in the income limits for housing purposes. That is something at which we shall continue to take an on-going sympathetic look, but it must be realized that, if the limits rise, the State will be required to pay more money from this fund and, as the fund is very heavily subsidised by the Exchequer, which naturally means the general body of taxpayers, it is only right that we should ensure that money advanced for housing purposes should go to the most necessitous in the community. A system which would make money available from this fund—a system I believe which would be quite wrong and one which nobody here would favour—which has to be subsidised so heavily by the general body of tax-payers could not be countenanced.

An indication of the size of the subsidy can be seen from the figures. The rate of interest charged by the State on advances from the fund is 10 per cent and 10 per cent is well below the rate of interest the State has to pay on money it borrows. That rate may vary from 12½ per cent to 16 per cent depending upon the length of the period for which the money is lent. It will be seen from this that there is a very massive subsidy given to those who borrow from this fund when the State is re-lending the money it borrows so dearly. Local authorities invariably re-lend the money for housing purposes at 1/2 per cent higher than the rate at which they borrow it. That means the borrowing rate is 10½ per cent, which is extraordinarily generous having regard to current interest rates here and generally throughout the world.

In respect of interest rates, it is very important that we should appreciate that the prime lending rate here is the lowest in Europe. The cost of money is determined not by any domestic situation operating in a local environment but rather by the situation in the open market and it is in our interest to borrow in that open market. The rate of interest is determined by world trends in the markets in which we ordinarily deal. The prime lending rate here is 11¾ per cent against a rate of 13 per cent and 14 per cent in Britain, 12 per cent in Denmark, 14½ per cent in France, 12 per cent in Germany, 18½ per cent in Italy and 12 per cent in the Netherlands. In the USA the prime lending rate is beginning to fall, but it rose at an exceptionally rapid rate over the last few years, during which time the lending rate from the Local Loans Fund was kept comparatively stable.

In 1972, when the prime lending rate here was 7½ per cent, the interest rate charged on advances from the fund was 1 per cent higher, namely 8½ per cent. In December, 1973, when the prime lending rate was 12½ per cent, the rate at which money was available to the Local Loans Fund was 9 per cent. Today it is 11¾ per cent; the rate of interest charged on money from the fund is only 10 per cent. Subsidies are extremely costly and, as I have emphasised, they can only be paid for by the community at large. We have, therefore, to reserve the funds for those people who require maximum help. That has been the policy of this Government. It will continue to be our policy.

Having said that, I reiterate that we will of course continue to consider sympathetically the need to increase the income limit but, as things stand, we have to bear in mind that increasing the income limit may increase the demand upon funds which are both very scarce and very dear.

Deputy Colley suggested that the principal reason for the increased allocations from the fund was inflation. That is not so. Certainly inflation is having some effect because it requires a greater amount of money to produce the same quantity of houses and sanitary services, vocational schools and so on; but the principal reason for our having to come back to Dáil Éireann shortly over two years since the last occasion has been the massive increase in the number of houses now being financed from the Local Loans Fund and the very significant increases in the amount of money made available for the necessary infrastructure. One of the reasons why housing sites have been so dear and why the cost of sites has escalated far beyond rises in living costs and construction costs has been due to the gross neglect for many years of the necessary infrastructure. We have changed that policy. We have accepted the absolute necessity of providing very substantial improvements in water supplies and sanitary services. The reflection of that can be found in the increases given for sanitary services. In 1972-1973 the allocation was £7.71 million. For the current year it is £14.6 million. That is a most significant increase. Had it not been granted many of our housing problems would remain unsolved and housing development would be delayed in the way in which the construction of houses used be delayed because of lack of essential facilities.

When we were in Opposition we severely criticised the Government for their failure to provide the funds necessary for local authority housing, housing essential for the least advantaged people in our community. That Government deliberately reduced the volume of local authority housing, leaving the main burden of providing new dwellings on the private sector. We appreciate the importance of the private sector in housing and we have shown our appreciation by the very substantial assistance we have given to the private sector. We have, however, accepted as an obligation the need to provide additional money for local authority housing. The result is that, in a two-year period, the allocation for local authority housing has risen from £25 million in 1972-73 to just £40 million in the current year. This, of course, has produced a substantial number of local authority houses.

On the house purchase loans front for a variety of reasons, not all associated with the temporary difficulties of societies, the allocation for house purchase loans under the local authority SDA schemes has risen from £8 million in 1972-73 to almost £34 million in the current year. These figures are much greater than any increased costs in the construction industry and are clear evidence of the Government's determination to use the funds at their disposal to assist the community in the provision of necessary housing.

In the period I talk about, the number of new dwellings being built has risen from 15,000 to 25,000 houses per annum. This, in itself, has meant that, while in 1972 the Government of the day expected that it would be four years before it would be necessary to return to the Dáil for an increase in the Local Loans Fund, we have used up the money which was then expected to last a four-year period in two years, and that is why we are back now looking for this substantial increase.

We consider it to be warranted and, if the Bill were not to pass, there would be difficulties early in 1975 in providing the necessary houses for the ongoing programme of massive capital investment for very necessary social and economic purposes. Not only are we providing houses because of the social and humanitarian obligation of doing so but because they are a very necessary part of the industrial development which is critically important for the maintenance of employment and also, of course, for the increase in the number of jobs which we must have if unemployment is not to grow.

Deputy Colley asked me about the capital budget. Subject to verification —and I am sure he will accept that it is not always possible to produce the instant answer—the figures, I understand, are as follows: for the 1974-75 12-months' period, the allocation is £98.55 million which includes an increase of £12 million for the small dwellings.

The £98.55 million is the revised figure?

The revised figure for a 12-month period. For the nine-months' financial period the revised figure is £75.13 million, that is, April to December, 1974. That includes the addition of £9 million for SDA purposes.

Deputy Enright mentioned the water supply position. I have already given the figures which show a very substantial increase in the allocation from the fund for water supplies and sewerage services from £7.71 million in 1972-73 to £14.6 million in 1974-75. Deputy Enright also mentioned the question of the provision of the necessary funds for road and local improvement schemes. I appreciate his desire for increased allocations for these items. The Government have increased very substantially the allocations for these items but the allocations are not made from the Local Loans Fund. He may be assured that we will be very anxious to maintain the improvement in these sectors as well as in the ones which are financed from the Local Loans Fund.

I hope that deals with most of the questions which were raised. I have some figures which may be of interest to Deputy Staunton. The demand for SDA loans in June last year was £29 million and currently it is £56 million. Deputy Staunton and others complained about the delay in the processing of applications for loans. As the Ceann Comhairle pointed out, the processing of these matters is the responsibility of other Ministers.

I did not complain about the delay but merely about the level of duplication——

The system.

——between the central authority and the local authorities.

I take the Deputy's point. It is frustrating but, as the Deputy is aware, in Government we have been anxious to devolve responsibility to local authorities. The Minister for Local Government has done this in quite a number of sectors. This is highly desirable. I am not at all satisfied that much of the duplication has resulted in savings. In fact, sometimes some of these delays have inflated costs because costs have risen during the period of delay. We are very anxious indeed to avoid many of these delays in future. The responsibility of the Department of Finance arises only when the details have been ironed out. We can well understand the annoyance and frustration which must arise along the line. I had the privilege of being a member of a local authority for many years and I was at the receiving end of the frustrations for a long time. Deputies may be assured of my personal commitment to eradicate as far as possible administrative frustrations and delay.

Question put and agreed to.
Agreed to take remaining Stages today.
Bill put through Committee, reported without amendment, received for final consideration and passed.

This Bill is certified a Money Bill in accordance with Article 22 of the Constitution.

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