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Dáil Éireann debate -
Tuesday, 28 Jan 1975

Vol. 277 No. 7

Private Members' Business. - Farm Incomes: Motion.

I move:

That Dáil Éireann calls on the Government (a) to seek immediately those changes in EEC Directives 159 and 160 which are necessary to permit the survival of the smaller farmers of Ireland; and (b) to introduce a scheme of financial assistance for those farmers who have been forced to sell young cattle at totally uneconomic prices, or who are trying to hold their cattle, or both, and immediately introduce a floor price for all young cattle.

I welcome the opportunity to have this discussion on what must be considered very important aspects of the agricultural scene. It is a pity this discussion is confined to three hours because I know many Members would like to participate in the debate, particularly those who represent rural constituencies.

This is a very fair motion. It would not be too difficult to forecast the speech of the Minister for Agriculture and Fisheries having regard to the amendment in his name. However, I understand I have the right to reply at the end of the debate tomorrow evening.

At a time when other sectors of the community are receiving substantial salary increases it is now evident to everybody that farmers have suffered a massive drop in their incomes. The average family farm income has dropped by over 20 per cent. While some farmers in milk and grain production may have maintained their income level it is obvious that many producers of small cattle have had their incomes cut by more than half. Of course it is, as usual, the small farmer who has suffered most. Even if most of the money intended for the beef farmers has ended up in the pockets of people for whom it was not intended those farmers have had some kind of guaranteed price. On the other hand, the calf and store producer has had no floor price whatever. The Minister said this could not be done for practical reasons despite the disastrously low price of small cattle.

Perhaps the same effort that was put into bringing the farmers within the tax net could now be put into helping smaller farmers to survive. Farmers feel frustrated by the lack of Government action and the failure, for the most part, of the EEC aids to reach them. This is demonstrated by the protests we have seen around the country. The following measures might be taken.

The various EEC schemes, particularly the disadvantaged area scheme, should be implemented immediately. At this critical stage the promise of a scheme in the future is useless to farmers who are desperately short of money. In the 1974 budget the Government were able to introduce a scheme for taxing farmers and to implement it practically overnight. Can they not show the same speed and effort at present in helping the farmers who have suffered most? In the present crisis farmers have had to use any cash they had to feed their stocks. Because of this sales of non-nitrogenous fertilisers have fallen to a fraction of sales in previous years. This almost guarantees another farming crisis in the coming year or at least a substantial reduction in stock, both disastrous from the national viewpoint. The Government's refusal to introduce a fertiliser subsidy is incomprehensible. Any funds used in such a scheme could not be employed more productively or profitably. This is so important and the time is so short we should implement it immediately and not go running to the EEC for permission to do so. We can do it if we have the will to do it.

The Government have been asked to set up a scheme to pass part of the slaughter premium to the store producer. Beef farmers have already indicated that they are willing to pass half the slaughter premium back to the store producer. The Minister said that such a scheme is not feasible but that the disadvantaged area scheme should help those farmers. I am glad the Minister is here because I would like him to comment on the thousands of farmers outside such areas. Perhaps the Minister can tell them where they are to get the money to pay their bills. The feed voucher scheme of subsidised loans is, to my mind and to the minds of many, totally inadequate. The £500 loan with limited subsidies is too small and for too short a period in present circumstances. It is no secret that the payment of these will fall due just when farmers will be faced with a backlog of other bills. I would suggest that there should be a moratorium of at least a year on those loans to enable farmers to get back on their feet. The recent increases in the Agricultural Credit Corporation interest rates could hardly have come at a more inopportune time.

The enormous interest rates paid by Irish farmers put them at a serious disadvantage as compared with their European counterparts. Increases in the cost of borrowing could and should have been delayed for at least six to 12 months. The whole question of monetary compensatory amounts should be thoroughly examined. Because of those payments Irish farmers have suffered needless hardship. The monetary compensatory amounts have been the main cause of the world beef problem reaching crisis proportions here and while this is being rectified some immediate action must be taken to readjust the green £. The belated revaluation taken last year has already been partially eroded. Farmers were promised at that time that further action would be taken in the following months to maintain the value of their exports. They now demand that this should happen. It seems from the present negotiations that Brussels is trying to back out of this in some way. I would ask the Minister to ensure that our farmers get a fair deal in this regard.

The failure of the EEC to introduce a sheep policy is a scandal and seems to contradict the whole idea of a community. We have been told by M. Lardinois that he is awaiting the outcome of the British referendum. This is a ridiculous excuse and if carried to its logical conclusion would ensure that no decisions were ever taken in the EEC. It seems more likely that some member countries are well suited by the absence of such a policy and are using pressure to maintain it that way. It is the responsibility of the Minister for Agriculture and Fisheries to see that a policy is introduced without delay for a trade which is so vital to many of our farmers. Our biggest market for mutton and lamb is France but this outlet can be closed down overnight. In those circumstances farmers and factories cannot plan their production. The result of this is unsatisfactory prices and it prevents the expansion we would like to see in our sheep numbers.

There is a view abroad that most members of the Government have no idea of the hardships which are being experienced by small farmers at present. I say this without any wish to provoke any kind of political narkiness. This was confirmed when we read statements not long ago by members of Fine Gael that no sector of the community could look forward to a more prosperous 1975 than the farming community. If the Minister wishes I can give him the source of this statement in my reply. Farmers would like to see some worthwhile initiative from the Government to rescue those people engaged in farming who, through no fault of their own but by following the advice of members of the Coalition parties, now find themselves in financial ruin.

As it stands the farm modernisation scheme militates against the survival of smaller farmers, many of whom are regarded as being in the transitional category which is more clearly understood as the small farming group. The present classification into the three categories, commercial, development and transitional farmers, is based on comparable income levels. For instance, many farmers in the western, north-western and south western counties are classed as transitional because of the physical disadvantage of the small size of farms. Consequently they receive lower subsidised loans or grants than the development farmers and they do not get any guidance premiums. Therefore, with the passage of time their position will become even worse than that of the development farmers.

There is one hope, namely, if the scheme for disadvantaged areas is implemented immediately. In that event, headage payments would be due on cattle and sheep and these would raise the income of the farmers concerned for the purpose of income assessment under the farm modernisation scheme. This would improve their chances of being classed as development farmers and of further improving the added benefits that apply to development farmers. In addition, both transitional and development farmers would get higher interest subsidies and loans because they were in disadvantaged areas. It is essential that this scheme be introduced immediately and I urge the Minister to do his utmost to get it into operation as quickly as possible.

Another point that could be made in relation to Directive No. 159 is that the comparable income levels should be introduced to allow more transitional farmers into the development category. The net income level of £1,800 per labour unit each year applied in 1974. This level is to be increased in 1975 to £1,875, in 1976 to £1,950, in 1977 to £2,025, in 1978 to £2,100 and in 1979 to £2,200.

The increases are projected on the basis of expected increases in inflation and wages in the non-farming sector. The problem in the Irish situation is that farm incomes in general have suffered in the past year much more than the non-farming sector. Secondly incomes in the Dublin area are well above the rest of the country. These raise the average non-farming income substantially and make it more difficult for the transitional or small farmer to qualify for development status. Comparable income levels which exclude Dublin City would be more realistic in provincial areas, and certainly in the western, north-western and south-western areas.

Directive No. 159 will create a situation in a period of six years where all farmers will be categorised as commercial farmers. Any farmer unable to obtain the commercial status will have the option of trying to survive on his farm without grants or aids or else trying to seek a livelihood in industry. The vital question is: will farmers who leave argiculture be gainfully employed in the industrial sector? I do not think it is necessary for me to remind the House that the employment situation has been deteriorating since the Coalition took office approximately two years ago to a situation where there are more than 100,000 people unemployed. I hope this is only a temporary phenomenon and will not continue for long but it shows the futility of hoping we can absorb into industry those who are leaving agriculture.

The second point with regard to the farm modernisation scheme is that the poultry and pig production enterprises that have been so helpful in the past for the small farming community will not be eligible for any aid. It is not right that these industries should be written off in this way and I ask the Minister to try to reverse the situation if possible. The pig industry will get aid if investment is more than £4,620. In this instance the small man is left out and is not being considered. The man classified as a small farmer will exist only to 19th April, 1977. The transitional or small farmer is penalised when he reaches the age of 55 years and grants are reduced from 30 per cent to 20 per cent. Many of these farmers have young families and they should be on a par with the development category and not penalised when they reach 55 years. This is a valid point and I hope the Minister will ensure that the present provision is changed.

At present the comparable income limit is £1,800. This is too high and it should be reduced to £1,000 per annum. This would be more realistic when one considers the results of the farm management survey carried out by An Foras Talúntais in 1972. It showed that if the comparable income of £1,800 is taken 75 per cent of Irish farmers will be excluded from getting incentives and preferential aids under the farm modernisation scheme. We must not forget that for every £3 spent by the Exchequer on the implementation of the scheme, we benefit to the tune of only £1 from Brussels.

The documentation relating to the farm modernisation scheme is believed by many to be very complicated. It appears it should be simplified so that agricultural advisers will not spend valuable time in their offices rather than in doing the work they are trained to do, namely, to give advice regarding agricultural matters on the farm. The documentation concentrates too heavily on the financial aspects of farming. Having regard to the problem of farming and the inconsistency of the industry, it is difficult to see how figures over a period of a few years can have any relevance, never mind figures projected over a six-year period.

With regard to the small farmer, the Minister should make an immediate statement on his plans for this category as from 19th April, 1977. The Minister knows that this matter has been raised in the House on more than one occasion in the last 18 months. The time has now come when he must make a definite statement on what his intentions are. It is important, in relation to the income of £1,800, to evaluate how the non-farm sector could provide employment for people who are forced out of farming for economic reasons. With the situation where we have an unemployment figure of 100,000 and over, the prospects at the present time are far from being bright for employment outside of farming. If there is unemployment in the non-farming sector a very strong case can be made for slowing down structural changes in farming. If a man can be unemployed outside farming it certainly makes sense to retain him in farming if he is making a net contribution in that sector.

There is a need in the present disastrous economic circumstances for a holding operation in regard to structural reform. A policy should be flexible enough to permit such action in the farm modernisation scheme, whereby development farmers and those adhering to an approved plan would become commercial within a period of six years. Is it being realistic for this farmer to draw up a plan for 1980 showing how much he will produce and earn in that year? I should like to hear the Minister give a specific answer to that question. I refer him to statements made by his colleague, the Minister for Finance, in the House recently when he could not even forecast for 12 or 18 months ahead, never mind forecasting for the 1980s.

It is unrealistic to predict the financial situation in farming over a certain number of years. From the early 1960s, to the late 1960s, with consistent economic output, it would have been impossible. But in the last two years, having regard to the situation in the Irish economy, such predictions are not possible. It would be much more desirable to know the increases in cattle or pigs numbers or the number of additional acres of tillage or grain which a farmer might be able to produce than the amount of financial data which is required in the documentation relating to the farm modernisation scheme.

All aids to farmers under this scheme are based on the level of income, so the keeping of farm accounts is one of the essential requirements of this scheme. This is a welcome development. It is important for all farmers to keep accounts but all the financial data required might not be necessary. The keeping of accounts should be in relation to increases in stock, tillage and grain. The orientation should be in that direction and away from the financial requirement because, to be quite honest, Irish farmers are a little suspicious that the financial requirement will be used for taxation purposes rather than to benefit them in the long run. I know the Minister has done his best to try to allay that suspicion but it is important to realise that it is held.

The documentation will change the role of the adviser. It will reduce his role to that of an office boy because of the volume of documentation involved. I am sure the Minister realises that the implementation of the farm modernisation scheme is in a dreadful mess. The number of applications finally processed and ready to go ahead is so small in comparison with the total number of applications that it appears that even with the advisers working at full steam the best they can hope for is to process one-and-a-half applications in a week. Those of us who represent rural constituencies know that unless something dramatic is done by the Minister and his Department to provide enough staff to deal with the applications and have them processed finally, then we will be in a very bad situation and we will not have the benefits under the scheme as it stands apart from the amendments I suggest. I know the committees of agriculture have asked the Minister to consider favourably allowing them to have additional staff. Proposals for increases of 50 per cent and 100 per cent in advisory staff have been put forward. I know the cost involved and the trouble the Minister will have, but the problem is there and he has the responsibility to do something about it very quickly.

In general it seems that the farm modernisation scheme is based on production commodities whose prices are expected to remain fairly stable. These production commodities will have a better chance of acceptance under this scheme rather than a plan based on products whose prices are likely to fluctuate a good deal. A farm plan based on milk as against one based on cattle will probably have a much better chance of being accepted for qualifying under this scheme. Since the amount of investment aid is based on the value of investment the scheme also favours a high capital intensive development as against a low capital intensive development.

Another point in relation to the farm development plan is that the farmer can only vary his investment programme to some extent. His farm operation can be varied only with the approval of the advisers. If he does not obtain this approval he will lose all future investment aid and possibly he may even have to repay past aids. The question is how departures from the plan should be treated. Where the farmer convinces the adviser that the change is desirable there is no problem, but because of price uncertainty it is desirable that a farmer be given a certain amount of flexibility to respond.

There are two main types of farmers who would qualify for development status leading to commercial farming status. First there is the 50 to 100 acre farmer with good management and intensive operation on his farm. Secondly, the bigger farmer with a large acreage who can attain the targets laid down with a much less intensive operation. In both cases you would have an increase in output, but it does not seem very fair to give the same aid to the first category of farmer who needs to work hard to achieve his output and to give preferential aid to a farmer with a very large fertile farm who has a much less intensive operation. It could be argued that the owner of a large farm might attain a commercial standard of income despite bad management and low income per acre because of the low capital charge on the land—2 per cent on 500 times the rateable valuation of land, which is about £5 or £6 per acre—while, on the other hand, a small farmer with high income per acre might find it impossible, because of the actual size of his operation.

In drawing up Directive 159 I am convinced the aim was to get the best return from labour rather than from land. In Ireland there is a pressing need to expand output in agriculture and to create employment. In Ireland land and capital are the scarce resources rather than labour, which was a scarce resource in Europe when Dr. Mansholt originally introduced the structural reforms now embodied in the farm modernisation scheme. This is a very important point. In the Irish situation it makes sense to use land and capital intensively rather than labour.

I understand between 14,000 and 15,000 farmers have applied for categorisation under the farm modernisation scheme. I appreciate the difficulties and realise it is too early yet to estimate the percentage of applications which will be approved. Taking the figures on farm income in the 1973 farm management survey of An Foras Talúntais it would appear that 35 per cent is the maximum upper limit of the number of farms which would eventually become commercial. That leaves 65 per cent of farmers on farms in the Irish Republic as transitional or small farmers on farms that will have no future or identification after April 19th, 1977. Again I would appeal to the Minister to make a statement immediately on his plans for those farmers, at least 65 per cent or perhaps 75 per cent of all those engaged in agriculture.

It is well known that the transitional farmer receives less favourable treatment than the development farmer. For instance, the transitional or small farmer, for investment in permanent buildings, would get a certificate of approval confirming that any investment in permament buildings is essential to the continuance of the present level of activity on the farm and that such buildings would be passed with structural changes in future. Also the small farmer is not entitled to a guidance premium but the development farmer is, and because he receives less favourable treatment his competitive position relative to the development farmer naturally will be worsened.

The farm modernisation scheme is very likely to make it harder for the small farmers to expand their enterprises, because development farmers receiving more aid may outbid them for such things as land and extra stock, while the transitional farmers might be in more need of land and stock in order to expand their income. They might not be able to purchase the land on the open market because they could not borrow sufficient money, as they might not be able to afford the repayments. As well as that the development farmer has priority access to land released by those availing of the new voluntary retirement scheme.

I would regretfully suggest to the Minister that he ask one of his Departmental aides to check the records of this House to see where the Minister himself denied that this was so at Question Time, admittedly at Question Time cross-fire, many months ago. Anyway he is on the record as saying that this is not so. I am satisfied that the small farmer, the transitional farmer, should have priority access to this land. As I have already mentioned, there is unemployment in the farming sector. Therefore there is a very good case indeed for retaining labour in agriculture, and if the transitional farmer is a hard-working man using his limited sources to the best advantage, it would be economically inefficient and inequitable to treat him less favourably than a person with a large fertile farm who could make development status without a high intensity of operation on his land. It would seem the small farmers will have to go their own way and do without investment grants. They must either opt for the retirement scheme, or try to eke out a living the best way they can, or try to get some unskilled employment opportunity in the industrial sector which, as I have said, is impossible at present.

Directive 160 provides annuities for people willing to retire from farming. This would apply to farms under 45 acres, so that the average amount of land made available for this scheme would be a maximum of about 25,000 acres. This is wrong. This would give only a marginal amount of land for structural change. Under Directive 160 land owners who have let their land may not be eligible under the retirement scheme, that is, if they have been letting their land within two years previous to the introduction of this scheme. If a transitional farmer has to get additional land in order to be categorised, he can only get additional land by either borrowing or getting it from the Land Commission, and it will be more difficult for them because land which is bought will impose an additional financial burden on the small farmer.

In summary, in trying to improve the farmer's welfare, I would submit that there is a very great need for flexibility in the existing farm modernisation scheme. Stringent adhesion to the six-year plan with the financial data required is unrealistic in farming conditions of uncertainty and inconsistency. Farmers who wish to achieve development categorisations by acquiring additional land with borrowed capital have to generate a higher income per acre to cover the higher capital allowance for such land, because there is higher capital output on land which is bought in as additional land. This would make it very difficult for those who try to make a living from farming on a small acreage to qualify under the scheme.

The structural measures specified under the scheme are unsuited to Irish conditions due to the scarcity of our farm employment and due to the high unemployment situation in industry. Structural changes are economically forcing people off the land into the industrial sector where we already have this fantastic number unemployed. This is economic suicide for our country. A holding operation here is imperative, because there is a lack of non-farming opportunities for unskilled and semi-skilled people leaving the land. It would be well for the Minister to take into account that at least 65 and possibly 75 per cent are estimated to be in the small farmer category under the present terms of this scheme.

The lack of alternative employment for transitional farmers, the higher capital charges on land obtained from the Land Commission, or by borrowing, and the exclusion from the retirement scheme of those who had ceased to work on their farms, will limit the scope for adjustment within the farm area. Under Directive 159, in the Irish dimension, investment aid is dependent on being able to obtain a comparable income, whereas the ability to manage the farm is a more appropriate criterion if agricultural production and exports are to expand. Given the scarcity of capital and the chronic unemployment situation in the industrial sector, it is undesirable to substitute capital for labour in farming at this time.

A holding operation is imperative until the EEC come up with an effective regional policy. Structural changes should be brought into being immediately, because the present policy is unsuited to Irish conditions, and under any circumstances the Irish Government should seek EEC approval for modification of this farm modernisation scheme. In particular, the granting of aids and incentives on the basis of rate of return on capital resources of the farm rather than what the capacity of the farm is to generate comparable income would allow greater support for an intensive farmer with a few cattle at the expense of the larger farmer, the gentleman farmer, who has large cattle resources. If EEC aid is conditional on structural changes, it should be based on criteria which would take account of the obtainable earned income outside of farming, because the average farmer who is economically forced off his farm is not able to earn the average income in the industrial sector; he is normally unskilled or at best semi-skilled, and this comparable income should be based on the obtainable earned income.

As regards the dividing of the country into various regions where some are more fertile than others and some have greater disadvantages than others, I believe the disadvantaged areas scheme, which held out great hope for many small farmers, should be got off the ground immediately, because, the morale of the farmer, particularly in the west, the south-west and the northwest, is at the lowest level it has been for many years. During the course of this debate the Minister will hear genuine comments from members of this party on the situation in the west. I know the Minister is an extremely busy man but it would be worth his while to go down to the west and meet the people there and discuss with them their problems and see how they and their families are affected. Things are at such a low ebb that it is difficult to imagine that even the implementation of the disadvantaged area scheme as quickly as possible will get them back on any sort of decent level. The Minister and his colleagues should see how things are for themselves. Our contributions to this debate will not be for the purpose of gaining some political advantage but rather for the purpose of urging the Minister and the Government to do their best for people who badly need help.

I move:

To delete all words after "Dáil Éireann" and to substitute the following:

(a) notes that the schemes introduced in this country to implement EEC Directives 159 and 160 provide new and improved benefits and opportunities for small farmers and requests the Government to ensure that those schemes are adequately promoted and that farmers are not misled by false and inaccurate statements being circulated concerning their aims and effects; and

(b) approves of the various measures introduced in support of the cattle industry; notes the improvement in cattle prices which has taken place in recent weeks; and asks the Government to continue its efforts to safeguard the interests of producers.

I appreciate the way in which Deputy Collins has approached the problems under discussion here. In my contribution I hope to give the maximum information in relation to the operation of the 159 EEC scheme and my colleague, the Minister for Lands, will deal with 160 because that is his responsibility.

I have tabled my amendment in order to emphasise that there is a positive and, I would say, much better approach to the difficulties under discussion, an approach that sets out to give assistance, support and encouragement as against further highlighting the problems and adding to the lack of confidence. The lack of confidence and the peculiar pessimism that appear to exist arise mainly from the depression in the beef and cattle industry. This depression has hit the small farmers particularly badly. Some people blame the Minister for Agriculture and Fisheries and the Government and some blame the European Economic Community, but there is one point I would like to emphasise: were it not for our membership of the EEC the position would be ten times worse. I hope this is widely appreciated.

Ten times. Is the Minister sure it is not 10.5?

Because of membership of the EEC one of the things we have been able to do is to take 500,000 cattle off the market into intervention at reasonable prices. It is, of course, true that all of this money did not get back to the producers and I suppose it is fair to ask me what I have done or tried to do in the circumstances. It is fair to say that the middlemen made excessive profits. We all recognise that. I did what I could to make contact with these people who were making these excessive profits and I asked them to co-operate. I got some co-operation but I did not get enough.

Hear, hear.

I suppose there are all sorts of things that could be considered in circumstances of this kind. We have given an undertaking that we will try to set up an inquiry to see how we could arrive at a situation in which there would be a more equitable distribution of profits as between the producers and those who provide the service. Arising out of my efforts to get co-operation from these people we got some money from them, money that would otherwise have gone to swell their profits and this money went into the starting of the food voucher scheme. That scheme has been criticised. Every attempt made to rectify the situation has been criticised, perhaps unfairly. When the food voucher scheme finishes the farmers will have got approximately £3,250,000 by way of direct grant. Someone said it was not worth a damn. All I can say is that I would like anybody to try insulting me with a £30 subsidy on food; they would be a long time trying to insult me.

This scheme is a good one. The only drawback is that we did not have enough money to benefit more farmers but we are now able to extend the scheme. Of the total applications 85 per cent are from the west so we have at least proved that the assistance is going to the right people, the people in greatest need. The scheme is being responsibly administered. In addition to that, we have extended the loan subsidy scheme for another six months. Many Members looked for an extension of this scheme and farming organisations did likewise and we have now agreed to extend it for six months. It was only a couple of days ago we got permission to do this from the EEC. There was considerable difficulty about getting permission. But we have got permission for both these aid schemes and I believe they will be a considerable help to farmers in the poorer areas who are short of fodder and short of money.

Our efforts to assist these people have not been confined to these two schemes. We must have regard to the fact that in 1974 £9.4 million was spent aiding the beef industry under the beef incentive scheme and approximately half of this sum went to the west of Ireland. In addition to that we have provided in the Estimates £6 million towards the hill and handicapped areas scheme. A fairish amount of money is being channelled into the west. I have not mentioned the increases in social welfare benefits but they are an additional expense on the Exchequer.

I believe a fair effort is being made to help these people. I know they are in serious trouble. I know the bigger farmers and those who finish cattle got the benefit of intervention and of the various slaughter premiums provided. As Members know, it is part of the package proposed on prices in Brussels that there will be 30 units of account per animal as a sort of headage payment provided. I do not know whether we will get agreement on that but I have raised the possibility of paying that directly to the farmers at a younger age. If it is accepted, I do not know how far down we will be allowed to go.

People talk very glibly about a floor price. Farming organisations have talks about a floor price. The Opposition have taken up the cry for a floor price. The party in Opposition were in Government for a long time but they never introduced a floor price. Having talked about a floor price for a long time, nobody has indicated how this would be provided, at what stage it would be paid, and how it would be administered. It is an extremely difficult job however you look at it. Even if we had the money tomorrow, it would be very difficult to find a way to get down to the level of a man with a five cwt. or six cwt. beast, and he is the person who has been hit worst. How do you give him a price? How do you get to his cattle? Do you weigh them or assess them? A fleet of people would be needed. The cost of administering such a scheme would be very high. These are all very serious problems and I can assure the House they are being looked at seriously.

Deputy Collins spoke at some length about the importance he attaches to the introduction of the hill and handicapped area scheme at the earliest possible date. I can assure him that his anxiety and concern are not greater than my own. When we had our recent discussions in Brussels on a possible price package, some member states wanted this separated from the price package. They felt it was a separate matter and that it should be discussed separately. I refused to accept that and Mr. Barry, speaking for Ireland, refused absolutely to accept it. At least the scheme is still there. It is my hope and expectation that it will be possible to get it agreed as part of the package. If it is agreed as part of the package we will implement it with the least possible delay. It should provide very substantial assistance.

And subvent it as well as implement it.

We have provided £6 million in the Estimates for this. When we add what we get from Brussels, we will be putting money into the west of Ireland, money which is badly needed in the west. As Deputy Collins rightly pointed out, if we get this scheme under way, it will be possible to bring more of these people into the development category when we are working on the modernisation scheme.

I mention these things in some detail because it is very easy to give the impression that everybody is ignoring the plight of these unfortunate people. Nobody in the Government is ignoring or is prepared to ignore the plight of these unfortunate people. We have gone a long way in trying to provide assistance, and we are making every effort to arrive at the point where these people will be in very much happier circumstances. Nobody wants to see people who have worked all their lives suffering hardship. As I say, it is very easy for people to talk glibly about a floor price. Fianna Fáil were a long time in office and I am sure all the difficulties were confronting them when they looked at it. It has never been done.

It is fair to say that when there was a guaranteed price for barley and pigs it was James Dillon who brought it in, not the Fianna Fáil Government. I would be very glad to introduce this if I thought it was feasible and if we could guarantee that it would not cost the Exchequer more than we could afford to provide for it. That could happen very easily if there were a very bad slump in the cattle and beef trade. This is what has caused all the trouble. This slump is not peculiar to Ireland and it is not peculiar to Europe. All over the world there is this difficulty at present.

This is the first year that baby beef was a lot cheaper.

I know that these cattle have been sold at give away prices, but it is no harm for us to remember that most of this has been done to farmers by other farmers. We have to face this. We know also that a very substantial portion of the processing is in the hands of farmers. They did not give an example by passing it back.

Why does the Minister not do something about this?

Why do the farming organisations not do something about it?

The Minister should put the boot down if they are not doing it.

I would ask Deputies to refrain from interrupting and allow the Minister in possession to utilise the limited time available to him. Deputy Collins spoke for 40 minutes and got a good hearing without interruption. Could we have the same good hearing for the Minister, please?

I apologise.

Putting down the boot never gives me any pleasure. I only put down the boot when there is no alternative. When things go too far we have to consider what can and what should be done. We have had a serious depression in cattle and beef prices. I maintain that the Government did the maximum in the circumstances. Never before in the history of this country were one million cattle processed and never before had the job to be faced of getting 500,000 cattle into intervention storage. I cannot speak too highly of the people in the Department of Agriculture and Fisheries who undertook this task and carried it through extremely successfully. It should be recognised publicly that people in the Department were working practically night and day. I should like to acknowledge what they have done because they did a first-class job.

I should like to pass on from the difficulties in that area to the second part of Deputy Collins's speech which was devoted to the 159 scheme. Deputy Collins made certain statements which I would describe as fliers. He made those statements in the Farming Independent on Saturday. He described the whole thing as being an absolute shambles and said all sorts of things about people in the Department, their failures, and so on.

It is a shambles so far as the small farmers are concerned.

Would the Minister quote rather than sum up because I do not accept what he says as being accurate? I have not read it.

I will quote: "In a blistering attack on the Department of Agriculture's handling of applications under the scheme, Mr. Collins alleges that thousands of farmers are now on a four to six year waiting list for consideration."

That is the situation as it is.

He said that the EEC farm modernisation scheme was in a shambles. The word "shambles" is used two or three times. Obviously he misunderstands the situation and I want to give him any information about it that I can. Before 31st December 19,786 applications were received and for 9,264 of those applications eligibility had been determined. We are talking of approximately half the applications received before 31st December. I should like to get home to Deputy Collins that when eligibility has been determined work can proceed.

Has the Minister a breakdown of that in the different regions?

I have. I know it is worse in some counties than in others.

How many in Donegal?

The Minister should be allowed to make his own speech.

I just cannot lay hands on it at the moment but I am giving you the position generally. I dealt with the position in Limerick particularly because I knew that Deputy Collins was moving this motion and I saw all the criticism in the paper. The number of applications on 31/12/74 was 840. In 372 of those eligibility had been determined. The number classified was 142 and the number planned, 35. Again, I must emphasise that in cases where eligibility was determined they can go ahead and there is no reason why they should be held up. From 1st January 144 cases were fully planned compared with the 35 planned up to 31st December. I point this out just to emphasise the extent to which dealing with the problem has been speeded up. They have become accustomed to dealing with it and the throughput has been more than doubled. From 1st January 144 cases were fully planned compared with 135 planned up to the 31st December. This shows the CAOs and advisory officers are beginning to find the job easy; it was difficult to begin with. Any new scheme is difficult to get under way and people must become accustomed to dealing with it. The CAO has reported that applications are being processed twice as quickly as they are being received.

This is important. For the first six months after February when the scheme was introduced the advisory services were not giving co-operation in the operation of it and a backlog built up but we have the evidence here from the CAO in Limerick that he is now catching up on this backlog and that in three or four months he will have it completely cleared. That is in contrast to what Deputy Collins said.

He also spoke of the difficulty of staffing. Incidentally staff have been increased quite substantially in my short time as Minister and the offices have been told that if they need extra clerical staff they are free to get them. I do not think we shall have any difficulty.

One of the points made by Deputy Collins in his criticism was that they would be diverted from other work and that this was a pity. I think the insinuation was that their job would now be downgraded, that they would be messenger boys. Nothing of the sort will happen. The advisory personnel are now embarking on far more valuable work than ever before because if they are to set up programmes for farmers to reach full development status, they are being put on their mettle: their knowledge is being tested. Consequently, they will do their work carefully. They will watch the results of their own advice and their own work. Certainly, it is far from a waste of time.

There is quite a substantial staff in Limerick, the present quota of instructors being 22—no small quota for Limerick. Two were added in 1974. I do not want to go into any more detail about Limerick but it is going pretty well. Of course, there are things wrong with the scheme. I recognise this but I did not set up the scheme and had no part in it. It was all done before I arrived. Without doubt, at a later date we can make a case for the revision of the scheme but as I have often said there is no point in rushing in saying that we find this and that wrong with a scheme and want it changed now because immediately you will be asked how long you are operating the scheme and if you have found these complaints in practice. They know the answers themselves. We have not been really operating the scheme. We are only attempting to operate it now for six months. We would have to operate it for at least a year before making a case for the type of changes that will become obvious in the course of working the scheme.

We have a good deal of difficulty about the matter of comparable income. We would like to see a lower comparable income and we have tried very hard and are trying at present to secure it but it is not being accepted. Unfortunately, there are people still here who think that I have only to go to Brussels and bang the table and get what I want and come back and implement it.

What is the departmental contribution to the scheme?

We have set aside £6 million for the scheme in the present year. I have gone into the operation of Directive 159 in very considerable detail in the Seanad and I have put all the data in relation to it already on record. I think it is hardly necessary to go over this again but one thing I want to emphasise is a matter that is being misrepresented all the time: people are being given the impression that they are now somehow worse off than before the modernisation scheme was brought in. Nothing could be further from the truth.

There will be far more who will not qualify.

Every farmer except a man who is not really a farmer will qualify. Every man who is 50 per cent a farmer will qualify for grants as good as he ever got before.

What about land from the Land Commission, additional land?

I tried to deal with this at Question Time before because again there is a mistaken idea about this. If it can be seen that a man who is now a transitional farmer can be made a development farmer with additional land, he is a priority case for additional land.

If he is not a development farmer he is not.

He does not have to be a development farmer already. If he can be made a development farmer with additional land and with programming he will qualify.

I intervene to advise the Minister that he has two minutes left.

However, the Minister for Lands will deal with that later. Deputy Collins talked about the fertiliser subsidies and the drop in fertilisers. He felt that we should be doing something about this. There is a fertiliser subsidy scheme in existence here but there is none in any other EEC country. We are on very dangerous ground if we start to talk about new fertiliser subsidies; we could lose what we have and I do not want to lose that. I agree with what the Deputy said about the green £. In my view the green £ is the most important thing for Irish farmers in a prize package and we have emphasised that over and over again. It is true to say that much of the benefit we got last October has since been eroded by the further devaluation of sterling. This is one of the things we are fighting very hard on, and while I cannot guarantee we will be successful I hope we will be.

Deputy Collins felt that the MCA system should be abolished but in my view it cannot. Unfortunately, it cannot be abolished until we have monetary and economic union and that is obviously quite a long way off. Deputy Collins also spoke about Brussels trying to back out of this but in my view they are not really trying to back out but they will resist any approach for anything special of this kind. We have to try to make our case and fight our way.

The Minister's time is now up.

I wanted to deal with a number of other matters but the Minister for Lands will deal with them.

I was agreeable to allow the Minister finish what he was saying but he ought to have been aware that we are all on a tight schedule. I was waiting for the Minister to give his response to the cogent case made by our spokesman on agriculture, Deputy Collins, to deal with a situation which must be called a crisis situation, but the Minister has not said anything at all about it. One would be very niggardly if one did not admit that the Minister made a very brave try to put some kind of complexion on the agricultural situation as it is at present. The Minister reminded me of the old jingle about Brian O'Lynn:

And the bridge fell down and we fell in; there is ground at the bottom says Brian O'Lynn.

That was the type of framework that was behind the Minister's contribution tonight.

The Minister made a valiant effort to put up a smokescreen over the situation that has obtained in Irish agriculture over the last 12 months. It was an effort to talk to the people, probably the majority of Irish farmers, who were seen to be subjected to treatment of the kind that is accorded to Indians on a reservation in the United States. This party will not regard the farmers of Ireland as Indians on a reservation; we will not participate at all in even the partial removal of the farmers from the living they are entitled to. We assert that our membership of the EEC guarantees, in the Treaty of Rome, the availability of assistance to farmers especially in the areas at the extremities of the Community, Ireland and southern Italy.

The fact must be faced that the Government since taking over the operation of our participation in the EEC have failed signally to acquit Ireland's rights in the Community. We have been treated to a very highly efficient programme of public relations. Every time the Minister for Agriculture and Fisheries went to Brussels he returned with some kind of a triumph and the one before Christmas was the most hollow of all. One of the Dublin daily newspapers carried the banner headline: "Sugar Bonanza". I have forgotten how many million pounds the writer of that headline put on that bonanza. The bonanza was that in the context of a serious shortfall in sugar supply in the European Community the quotas allotted to the sugar beet growing countries were increased. The quota of Belgium was increased by about 40 per cent while the quotas of Germany, Holland and France were increased a great deal more than ours.

That is not so.

At the same time an undertaking was given by the EEC to subsidise sugar to the British consumer. I believe we got an increase of 40,000 tons of sugar in our quota. We saw in more recent times the serious developments that have taken place since then and the precarious situation in which our vital sugar industry is in at present. I am citing that case as the latest in the catalogue of these phoney triumphant returns home on the part of the Minister for Agriculture and Fisheries. I appeal to the Minister to drop this attitude because it is doing this country very serious harm, apart from the fact that it is very misleading.

During the Cork by-election a lot of campaigning was done, by the Fine Gael Party especially, arising out of the fact that members of my party opposed the partial devaluation of the £ proposed by the Commission and put into effect on 7th October last, the 11.4 devaluation that took place. We opposed this devaluation in the knowledge that this was of no value whatever to us because nothing less than a full 15.3 at that time would have eased the movement of cattle from here. This devaluation ought to have taken place 12 months ago. I am certain that if the Government at that time had approached the Commission for this devaluation of the agricultural £ they would have had their request gladly acceded to. This is beyond question and I was informed about this by the Commissioner.

The Commissioner denied that publicly when he was in Ireland.

And we were told differently when we were in Brussels in June.

I am telling the Deputy that had the Irish Government approached the Commission at that time for a full devaluation of the Irish £, they would have got it. The source of that information is Commissioner Lardinois. I know further from questions put down in this House on the subject that the first reaction I had from the Government was one of ridicule.

Hear, hear.

The suggestion coming from me that we should devalue the agricultural £ was treated with ridicule. By June we were told that the matter was receiving consideration. Then the poorest of our farmers, the holders of young cattle, had perforce to sell them. To say "sell" is really to give it a wrong tag. They gave them away. They sold them for £5 a cwt and less. The reason given for their having to do so was the bottleneck that took place in the off-take of finished cattle. This bottleneck will continue until we begin to get cattle on to the Continent of Europe. The Government failed. It was not the fault of the EEC, it was not the fault of the Commission. It was the fault of the Government and nobody else. I think it a very reprehensible thing on the part of the Government to seek, collectively, at any rate, to shove off the blame for this on to the EEC, because there is a subtle campaign going on, being aided and abetted by certain members of the Government, to denigrate our membership of the EEC. Anybody who knows anything about the economics of exporting agricultural produce, even over the past five years, will know that had we not been a member of the EEC for the past couple of years, our situation would have been far worse. But the Government, collectively, in order to avoid accepting the blame they should have accepted, are seeking to shove it over onto the Commission, sometimes even to the degree of identifying people in the Commission who ought be blamed.

Does not it show Labour's interest with the numbers of them present?

The Deputy is looking at the wrong benches.

It is time this nonsense ceased. In my time farming, and my recollection goes back to the thirties, I have never seen such critical conditions——

Hear, hear.

——as exist in Irish farming at present. The Government do not seem to be able to grasp the central fact that our greatest resource is our cattle herd. In the last 12 months more damage was done to that herd than was ever done before in the history of the country.

Nonsense.

That cattle herd was being developed, the numbers were increasing and the quality of the cattle was improving because use was being made of good quality bulls. There was good quality insemination at the insemination stations. What is happening now? The numbers of inseminations at those stations at present are dropping drastically and whatever number of cows are being put in calf are being serviced by scrub bulls. In turn, the heifers they will breed will have a ruinous effect on the quality of Irish cattle.

That is a very serious indictment of Irish farmers.

People have their heads in the sand over there.

Deputy Gibbons, without interruption.

If Deputy Gibbons thinks Irish farmers use scrub bulls, that is a very serious statement.

In the last 12 months more than three times the number of cows were slaughtered in factories than in the previous year and, of those, a great many were in calf when they were so slaughtered.

The future of our daily complexes, of Avonmore, Ballyclough, Mitchelstown and so on, is dependent on an increasing supply of milk. There has been installed recently at Avonmore an ultra-modern cheese plant. In order to finance that plant Avonmore must have an increasing supply of milk. I think the reality is that there is going to be a drop in creamery intake next year because of the slaughter of cows and of the fear and failure of farmers to put cows in calf. Firms, such as the one I have mentioned, will find themselves in difficulty because they will not have a sufficient through-put to make their modern and expensive plants economic.

We have even heard talk in this House, from the Government benches, of a situation in which it was said we had too many cattle. This is absolute nonsense. Had the Government taken the vital steps to ensure that the produce of our herd was marketed when it was fit to be marketed things would have been different. But, because the Government dithered—because there was a split between the Labour Ministers and those of the Fine Gael Party who did understand the vital necessity of getting our finished cattle out of the country and receiving payment for them—and came up with a half devaluation which, I am glad to say, Fianna Fáil voted against in the European Parliament, on 7th October, that was of no value at all and did nothing to rescue the people about whom we were talking in this new technical language of ours "in the disadvantaged areas", the Indians in the reservation of Connacht. I want to say to the Government, to the Minister, that we will never think of our people in the west as people to be treated as Indians in reservation. That is the way the Government are treating them and nobody else is responsible for having got them into that situation at present.

I want to ask the Minister to try to persuade his colleagues of the central fact that the most important thing in our economy is our cattle herd. Anything that damages it damages the whole country and everybody in it. It is the sorry record of the Government that in the past 12 months they have played hop with this herd that was developing especially rapidly in the late sixties until Fianna Fáil went out of office. On this side of the House we are compelled to seek floor prices for cattle. The Minister asks in dismay: "How on earth can one operate a system like that?" Let me tell the Minister that the British Government have been operating a minimum price system for decades. It is not by any means inoperable. What one does is that one determines a reference price each week and the deficiency is made up, as it had been for decades, by the British Government. But I would not recommend that.

What one needs is a strong, industrial economy behind one.

I would not recommend that as a permanent feature of our cattle economy because it need not be if finished cattle were taken off systematically and the arrangements for their marketing was systematic. There is a very large market for Irish store cattle in northern France. There is a very large market for cattle, both live and dead, in the Low Countries and in Germany but we cannot get in there because of monetary compensatory amounts. And those are prohibitively high because the Government failed to devalue the agricultural £ sufficiently. Therefore, let that responsibility rest where it belongs.

Looking back over the sorry performance of the Government during the past 12 months I am not very sanguine in asking them to adopt an emergency measure even now to get a floor price for small cattle. We are not asking that this become a permanent feature of the cattle economy; we are talking in emergency terms but we want the cattle trade to carry itself.

I want to speak also about the situation in the sugar beet area to which I have made a brief reference already. Intrusions like that of the Taoiseach when he spoke in Galway last week can do nothing but harm.

Hear, hear.

Farmers are not prepared to listen to bad-tempered lectures from the Taoiseach.

The Deputy is moving away from the motion before the House.

Debate adjourned.
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