asked the Minister for Foreign Affairs if the Government will request the British Government to release all internees without trial in the event of an indefinite ceasefire in Northern Ireland.
8.
Ceisteanna—Questions. Oral Answers. - Internment Without Trial.
7.
asked the Minister for Foreign Affairs the dates, if any, on which the Government formally requested the British Government to end internment without trial in Northern Ireland; and the response to each such request.
A Cheann Comhairle, arising out of the Minister's reply——
With the permission of the Ceann Comhairle I propose to take Questions Nos. 7 and 8 together.
(Interruptions.)
The concern of the Irish Government about the system of detention as it operates in Northern Ireland has been made clear to the British Government.
(Interruptions.)
Since 14th March, 1973, various aspects of the question have been raised——
(Interruptions.)
——on 12 separate occasions, at meetings between Irish and British Ministers.
(Interruptions.)
Will Deputy Fitzgerald please resume his seat?
I shall do so under protest. The Minister is refusing to answer the questions.
The Government have done nothing in this area and there is no application this year in this regard.
Far from refusing to reply, I have a suspicion that my colleagues are becoming very impatient because of the amount of replying I am doing. Perhaps I should repeat the reply since I was shouted down from the other side.
The Minister was not shouted down.
Then, I need not repeat that part of the reply that I have read already.
On a point of order, the Minister continued deliberately to speak while we were asking questions.
That is not a point of order. I ask the Deputy again to resume his seat and allow questions to continue in an orderly fashion. I shall not repeat that request.
As you are aware, a Cheann Comhairle, I did not begin to reply until you called the question and, the question having been called, I considered myself obliged to reply. Here is the reply to Questions Nos. 7 and 8.
Questions Nos. 7 and 8 together.
The concern of the Irish Government about the system of detention as it operates in Northern Ireland has been made clear to the British Government. Since 14th March, 1973, various aspects of the question have been raised, on 12 separate occasions, at meetings between Irish and British Ministers.
With regard to the question of the release of all internees in the event of an indefinite ceasefire in Northern Ireland, the Government's view is that internment in the way it was introduced and the way it has operated was politically counter-productive. The continuation of that system of internment is making it more difficult to improve the political situation but the calculation of the rate at which the system can be dismantled involves security as well as political considerations and is, therefore, a matter primarily for those who have full information about the security as well as the political situation prevailing in Northern Ireland. It is, however, our hope and the British Government know it, that in the very near future there will be both a permanent ceasefire and an end to internment in Northern Ireland.
In the event of a permanent ceasefire, would the Government request the British Government to put an immediate end to internment?
The phrases "permanent ceasefire" and "immediate end" are rather difficult to reconcile. A "permanent ceasefire" is something that one would have to see operating for a period before one could be sure of its permanency. I should not wish to give a precise yes to the Deputy's question although the general tenure of the Government's position would be along the lines the Deputy suggests.
The Northern Ireland Secretary of State, Mr. Rees, has given such a guarantee but our Government would seem to be somewhat less enthusiastic than he in that direction.
Let there be no misunderstanding regarding the word "immediate". An argument could arise as to what point it is clear that a ceasefire is permanent. That is the only distinction I would make but in principle the Government's position would be along the lines the Deputy has in mind.
Can the Minister say if any approach was made to the British Government during the recent ceasefire to request them to phase out internment?
There have been so many approaches that it is difficult to track down all of them. The matter of internment was raised with the British Government shortly before Christmas.
Was there a formal request to the British Government during the period of the ceasefire to end internment?
I do not think so. Our position has been so well-known for so long and on so many occasions that it was not considered necessary to reiterate it at that time.
This question which was tabled two weeks ago has been over-run by the events that have occurred in the meantime but in view of the developments at the time of the ceasefire, would the Minister not agree that it would have been appropriate to make a formal request at that time and that this, also, would have been productive politically?
I doubt it.
I would disagree with the Minister.
That is a matter of judgment.
Question No. 9.
Did I understand the Minister to say that this question has been raised on 12 occasions with the British?
Various aspects of internment have been raised on these occasions.
Would the Minister not agree that any of these approaches or that any new approaches would be more likely to bear fruit if it were seen that our Government were prepared to dismantle their pseudo-legal internment as it exists under the Special Powers (Amendment) Act? It is a totally false operation and it is a sham to ask others to end a system similar to something we are operating.
If the Deputy were serious in what he says, but he is not, he would be condemning himself for participating in a Government which operated the same system.