Dáil Éireann debate -
Wednesday, 19 Mar 1975

Vol. 279 No. 5

Adjournment Debate: Kerry Housing Allocation.

Mr. J. O'Leary

I regret that we have to remain back at this hour of the evening on this question—Question No. 30 on today's Order Paper— regarding the provision of money for housing in County Kerry for the current financial year. It is not entirely my fault. I sought certain information in putting down this question to the Minister for Local Government today and I intended to seek further information arising out of the reply by asking further supplementaries. I was merely able to ask one supplementary before you, Sir, called the next question. At that stage there was no alternative for me but to state my intention to raise this matter on the Adjournment.

My question to the Minister read as follows:

To ask the Minister for Local Government if he is aware that the allocation of money by his Department to Kerry County Council for the financial year 1975 falls far short of the total amount required by the council to achieve its housing targets for (a) the erection of new council houses and (b) the payment of supplementary housing grants and housing loans; and if he will make a statement on the matter.

The Minister, in his reply, stated that Kerry County Council informed him that their original capital allocation for 1975 was inadequate, that he had authorised an interim increase of £150,000, and that he would review the position following a thorough examination of the council's housing programme. He stated also, at the end of his reply, that he had received a request from the council for a supplementary allocation of £150,000.

I was not, and am still not, sure whether this is the same £150,000. As the Minister is probably aware, Kerry County Council prepared a programme this year under which they intended building 300 council houses. There are approximately 800 persons on the housing waiting list. I regard that target as being reasonable, having regard to the number of persons on the waiting list and to the staff employed by the council to supervise the erection of those houses.

Might I ask the Minister is it not a fact that the council submitted an estimate some time ago to his Department saying they would require a sum of £1,513,000 to finance this programme? I believe that is the sum required. It is a reasonable figure when one considers the average cost of building a single rural house and the cost of building a house in a group scheme.

The Department of Local Government informed the county council that their allocation for the year was £850,000 which included £201,000 in respect of houses being built by the National Building Agency. When the council received that notification with no guarantee, in writing, that they would receive more, they had no option but to adopt a "go slow" attitude with regard to achieving the target of 300 houses this year. The Minister is probably aware that it costs between £4,000 and £4,400 to build a single rural house now in Kerry. The average cost per house in a group scheme ranges from £5,000 to £5,500. A few years ago, around 1972, the average cost per single rural house was approximately £2,300 to £2,400. Therefore, it is evident that far more money is required this year than in previous years in order to build even the same number of houses. There is no doubt but that the provision of houses by the county council and by the urban authorities in Kerry is one of the greatest needs of the county. Apart altogether from the numbers on the waiting list of Kerry County Council, there are hundreds on the waiting list in Killarney and Tralee urban councils.

It must be remembered that there is a young population in Kerry, that people are now getting married, settling down and looking for homes of their own at a much younger age than heretofore. In addition, people do not expect now to be so long on the waiting list for houses. We must remember that, whatever the Minister may say, during the period when the previous Minister for Local Government was in office the number of houses built in the country rose rapidly within a few short years from 15,000 per annum to 22,000 per annum. I believe that the groundwork was laid at that time for achieving a target of at least 25,000 houses now. I believe monetary provision should be made for building more and more houses as the years progress, particularly when we take into account the ever increasing costs of building materials, labour and all the incidental expenses that go with the provision of local authority housing.

I could not see any other step which Kerry County Council could have taken but to slow down on their programme when they were notified— even allowing for the extra £150,000 —that they would not get only £1,000,000, whereas, in fact, £1,500,000 approximately is required to meet the target for the current financial year.

I know the Minister stated in his reply that the council's housing programme and capital requirements were being examined locally by officers of his Department. I know also from other local authorities that it is the intention of those officers also to visit other housing authorities, I presume, with a view to distributing the additional £7,000,000 the Minister has made available for housing this year. I am concerned particularly about the fact that a sum of £540,000 only has been approved so far by the Minister for the payment of supplementary housing grants and loans for the present financial year when the firm estimate submitted by Kerry County Council, I understand, was a figure of at least £900,000.

It is all right to say that this amount of £540,000 was related to an allocation of 60 per cent of the 12 months' equivalent of the allocation for the nine-month period to 31st December, 1974, but the council have no guarantee in writing so far from the Department of Local Government that they will get more money. They have not been told that they will get the £900,000 which they anticipate they will spend by dealing adequately with all the applications for supplementary grants and loans.

There are many people in Kerry who are concerned that the council have not been told they will get what they require to pay the supplementary grants and loans. Applicants are afraid that the council will be dealing more harshly with applications, particularly for loans. What else can the council do but slow down the number of approvals for loans when they have been guaranteed so far only 60 per cent of the amount they estimate they will require for the coming year?

We must also remember that due to the high interest rate charged by the banks on bridging loans, applicants for loans are seeking payment and are ready to receive payment far quicker than they were when the bank interest rates were much lower. Applicants now make sure their solicitors and legal advisers get titled documents ready as soon as possible so that the mortgage can be prepared and payments made in some cases when work only commences on the building of a house. This is in order to avoid the heavy interest payments on bridging loans. This, in turn, means that there will be a very heavy draw during this year on local authority loans. That is another reason why we think in Kerry that our estimate of £900,000 is probably very conservative and that we may require more money still before the year is out, that is if people now draw their loans at a faster rate than they did heretofore.

I have noticed of late as well that the county council are dealing with applications for housing reconstruction loans only in respect of houses where the occupants require additional accommodation. This is not as it should be, because the vast majority of people who applied for reconstruction loans are merely reconstructing and improving their existing dwellings and are not building additional accommodation in order to relieve overcrowding. I believe the council should be in a position to allocate housing reconstruction loans to applicants who merely require the loan to enable them to reconstruct and improve their existing houses.

I should like to get a guarantee from the Minister that he will provide for the council whatever capital allocations they require in respect of new houses, that is, up to the estimate of 300, and also for the payment of supplementary grants and housing loans. There is one type of answer which I hope will not be forthcoming, that is, a statistical one which will give the amount of money allocated in previous years to the county council and to the urban district councils in Kerry. These statistics bear no relationship whatever to the current year having regard to the ever-increasing cost of building materials and to the increasing cost of providing local authority houses generally. We should also bear in mind that there is an ever-increasing demand now on local authorities to provide houses for persons who would normally build themselves if the ceiling of £4,500 for the local authority loans were increased. It is obvious that people can no longer build themselves by way of loan and grant, even assuming that many of them can purchase the site themselves.

Mr. Tully

Maybe the Deputy would put down a question about that.

Mr. J. O'Leary

Yes. At least this is my experience of late. I should like to get a straight and unconditional guarantee from the Minister that the council will get the amount of money required to carry out their programme for the current financial year. In asking this I do not wish to make a political football of the housing situation in Kerry.

Minister for Local Government (Mr. Tully)

Napoleon used to say that every infantryman carried a field marshal's baton in his knapsack. If he came back here he would be a little confused at all the potential field marshals that are in the Fianna Fáil benches. Indeed, Deputy Faulkner had to exercise authority today to get an opportunity of asking a supplementary on his own question. Everybody in Fianna Fáil feels he would make a better shadow Minister for Local Government than Deputy Faulkner. We have the example here tonight of Deputy O'Leary who could have pursued this question because the Ceann Comhairle was quite generous and allowed two or three supplementary questions after Deputy O'Leary had asked for the matter to be raised on the Adjournment.

I have no objection at all to coming back here at night to answer questions, but I admire the hard neck of people who come in here with questions on the Adjournment. Either they do not do their homework beforehand to find out if, in fact, they are on firm ground or, alternatively, they just chance their arm and feel that if they are able to get a few lines in their local newspaper—The Kerryman in this case—it will be all to the good. As a person who has been here for a very long time, I would advise that this is very bad tactics. I do not like to see even my political opponents doing what has been done here two or three times in the last week or so.

The record has to be put straight. Kerry County Council, of course, asked for a very substantial amount of money for local authority housing —£1,229,000 to be exact. They were told that they would get £850,000, which was 60 per cent of last year's, and that this would keep them going into June until we found out exactly what the position was. They said this was not enough and on 30th March they were told they could have another £150,000 to keep them going until June and that a review would take place early in the following month and that their claim for extra money over the £7 million which the Government gave would be finalised in July in conjunction with any other claim. Therefore, they were covered for any new work they wished to start in the interim. I know efforts are being made to prevent new work from being started and to sabotage local authority programmes. I am surprised at Deputy O'Leary lending himself to this sort of thing. He may not understand what is behind it but some of his colleagues understand it very well. I imagine he would be interested in housing people eligible for local authority houses. So far, Kerry County Council have had more than enough to keep them going until the end of June when the position will be reviewed.

Before this, in 1972-73 capital expenditure on local authority houses in Kerry was £407,905; in 1973-74, £531,925. In 1974, the capital allocation for nine months was £650,000 which would be equivalent in 12 months to £867,000. In 1975, the basic allocation, plus additions and authorised overdraft is £1.1 million. To get so much at the start out of £1,229,000 is doing pretty well. Perhaps the Deputy was not aware of it but those are the facts. The authorised expenditure so far this year is £1.1 million against a little over £.4 million in 1972-73, nearly three times as much as was given for the whole year. I do not object to constructive criticism but I object to people trying to give the impression that things are other than what they really are.

The increase in the programme itself is very interesting because in the year up to 31st March, 1973, completed local authority houses in Kerry were 141 but up to 31st December, 1974, 207 were completed. Under construction up to 31.3.73 were 47 while under construction up to 31.12.74 were 198. At tender on 31.3.73 there were 113 while on 31.12.74 the figure was 135. At planning on 31.3.73 were 224 and at 31.12.74, 404, a total of 525 as against a total at 31.12.74 of 877. The additional sites available on 31.3.73 were 861 while on 31.12.74 the number was 1,054. And Deputy O'Leary says we are not doing enough for local authority housing. I think that is the answer.

Deputy O'Leary mentioned a target of 300 houses in 1975 for Kerry County Council. I welcome this scale of output and assure him that the programme will not fail for want of capital but in recent years the total number of houses built in Kerry by the county council and the urban district councils of Tralee, Killarney and Listowel was in 1971-72, 252; in 1972-73, 175; in 1973-74, 153 and in the nine months of 1974, 141. The county council had 198 houses under construction at the end of last December. Normally 70 per cent of the houses in progress at the beginning of the year are completed the following year and 70 per cent of 198 would give about 140 completions. Deputy O'Leary might be able to tell me where the other 160 houses will come from. Are fairies at work in Kerry again completing another 160 houses of which we know nothing in the Department?

Expenditure by Kerry County Council on house purchase loans and supplementary grants has been as follows: in 1972-73 the total was £490,248; in 1973-74, £684,859 and and for the nine months of 1974, it was £794,054. An additional allocation of £540,000 for loans and grants was notified to the county council last month at the rate of 60 per cent of the 1974 expenditure to cover requirements until next June. The council sought an immediate increase and a further £150,000 will issue next week. This brings the allocation for the first three months of 1975 to £690,000, or £200,000 more than the total spent in the full year 1972-73. The council have been told that if a need for extra finance is established in the coming months extra money will be provided.

Towards the end of last year when it became clear that the very extensive increase in building which was taking place would require extra money, the Government provided that money, amounting to £9 million plus £6 million plus £1½ million. That has happened twice since I took over as Minister after we had given fantastic increases on what was given by Fianna Fáil. When extra money was required we made it available; if more money is necessary to complete our programme, of course it will be made available. We have proved that; we did it before and we will do it again. It is a bit much that people should cry "wolf" even though they know the facts do not warrant it. Deputy O'Leary is an intelligent man and was a county council official and can read figures—there are people here who cannot do that. He should be able to read the figures and not take what is obviously told to him by somebody else about how bad the situation is.

I shall not quarrel with Kerry County Council if they need to build more houses. Of course, they need more local authority houses as is the case throughout the country. That is not my fault. I would quarrel with the figure Deputy O'Leary gave when he said that over 22,000 houses were built. In fact, the last figure produced by my predecessor was 21,500 and 2,000 of those were built in the previous year. We shall not quarrel about that; the grants were paid on 21,500 and we can accept that figure. The best Fianna Fáil could do as regards local authority houses in their best year over the whole country was slightly over 4,000 houses. We have topped 7,000 this year; we were pretty close to it last year. And Deputy O'Leary says we are not doing enough for local authority housing. I assure him that if I have my way, as I expect, in the years to come I will ensure that we will provide enough money for housing of every kind and particularly local authority houses because I appreciate the necessity for such houses in the case of those unable to provide them for themselves. The question of bank overdrafts and so on is a lot of nonsense. As far as Kerry County Council are concerned, Deputy O'Leary, being a member of that council, can get them to ensure, if they have not already done so in their provision for loans, that loans will be given for any type of construction or repair they wish to include. That is a matter for the county council with which the Government have nothing to do.

I suggest Deputy O'Leary would be better off if he talked to the county council and persuaded them to give money for this purpose. I should be annoyed if I felt that efforts would be made to prevent people from building additional accommodation or carrying out reconstruction they require because money was not being made available by a local authority. They have no instructions from my Department to do this. I should like to see all this building being done. This is a matter for Kerry County Council and the Deputy should not try to lay the blame here where there is no blame.

The Dáil adjourned at 11 p.m. until 10.30 a.m. on Thursday 20th March, 1975.