asked the Minister for Agriculture and Fisheries if he will provide a fuel subsidy for the Irish fishing fleet to allow them to compete on equal terms with their European colleagues.
Ceisteanna—Questions. Oral Answers. - Irish Fishing Fleet Fuel.
37.
I am not aware that Irish sea fishermen are competing on less than equal terms compared with their European colleagues.
I consider that the generous grants and low interest rates charged to fishermen by the State for their capital investment in the industry and the owner-skipper structure of the Irish fishing fleet has enabled the Irish fishing fleet as a whole to weather the current difficulties successfully.
I asked a question about fuel and not about any other sphere of the industry. Would the Parliamentary Secretary not agree that, as an island nation within the EEC, we should be in a position to compete at least on comparable terms with the rest of our colleagues— indeed, that we should be competing on even more favourable terms? To the best of my knowledge, the rest of the EEC countries are providing subsidies, directly or indirectly, to their fishing fleets which we are not doing. Is he further aware that our fishermen are falling behind every week and month income-wise in comparison with their colleagues in Europe?
The position is not that we are allowing our fishermen to compete on equal terms with their European colleagues but that the terms here are much more favourable than those obtaining in any European country or in any country outside of Europe of which I or the Department are aware. The facilities, grants and accommodation, such as subsidisation of interest rates on loans available to fishermen here do not apply on such favourable terms in other countries. It is not true to say, as the Deputy alleges or asserts, that all the other six member countries provide subsidies——
There are nine of us, not six.
Or to say that all of the other eight member countries provide subsidies. As far as we are concerned, the position is that our general subsidisation of the industry is better than that of any of the other eight countries. In Denmark there is no subsidy of any kind; there is subsidy granted in England to boats of more than 14 feet which does not compare with the type of facilities we provide for our fishermen because in Britain the total grant available for boat owners is 25 per cent. Along with giving the 25 per cent grants here, we subsidise the interest rates which is of continuing benefit to skippers and crew members over the period of a loan by 70 per cent; 70 per cent is the subsidisation.
On a point of order, the question had to do with fuel subsidy, the costs of fuel——
That is not a point of order.
And we are getting a lecture here on everything else except the price of fuel.
That is not a point of order.
It is a lecture on credit terms and so on.
If the Deputy wants a smart answer, it is not proposed to provide a fuel subsidy.
That would have been much better.
That is one answer.
Further arising from the Parliamentary Secretary's lack of reply, would he not agree that the fishermen would not be protesting in the terms and the extent to which they are if there was not a problem? Would the Parliamentary Secretary not agree that it is time——
The Deputy is enlarging on the question which is on the Order Paper.
——to have a Ministry of Marine Affairs established here to sort out the problems of the fishing fleet and of the industry generally?
That is a completely different question. Question No. 38.
I can tell Deputy R.P. Burke, the House and the country generally that during the two years in office of the National Coalition Government the amount of money made available——
The Parliamentary Secretary should stop. We do not even believe him.
——for the fishing industry under all headings has increased from £4,150,000 to £7,940,000.
That is the fuel bill?
In relation to fuel.
That is an astronomical increase by virtue of the confidence the Government have in the industry. As well as that a factual appraisal of the position available to the Department is that the overall income of those engaged in the industry has increased by well over 20 per cent in excess of the increase in the cost of living and of operational costs. I can assure the House that the Government are mindful of the interests of our fishermen whether engaged in inland fisheries or sea fisheries.
May I ask——
The Chair is the sole guide in regard to the matter of supplementaries. Deputy Brennan is being allowed a final supplementary.
The Parliamentary Secretary shows an appalling lack of information regarding the fishing industry. Would he state that the fishermen are wrong in the statement which they presented to him the other day which proves that their income has seriously declined due to the fall in the price of fish as a result of competition from countries where fishing is subsidised? We are not talking about the capital cost of boats here, the subsidisation of which was brought in by our Government and had to be continued by the present Government. This is capital expenditure. I am asking the Parliamentary Secretary if he will deny that there has been a vast increase in the cost of fuel to fishermen accompanied by a decline in the price of fish in recent times due to the fishermen being unable to compete with countries where fuel is subsidised, which enables foreign fishermen to operate at a lower cost. What does he propose doing in face of this? Is he going to let an industry, which we had got on its feet and which was expanding and which he was compelled to continue subsidising, flop with the other industries in the country?
Not at all. So far as Deputy Brennan's question is concerned, the position is that I met a deputation of fishermen's representatives in May of last year at the time when the oil crisis was looming largely. They were anxious then, as they are anxious now, to obtain a subsidy on the oil prices. I asked them to submit to me statistical evidence. That is fundamental if you are to go to the Government to make a case for fishermen. I asked them to give me statistical evidence of their operational costs, their profit or loss, whether or not the increase in catches or income overcame the increase in the oil prices. I assumed that this would be a reasonably easy task for the various boats taking into account the fact that the boats operate more or less on a share system. Naturally, when operating a boat on a share system with four or five or six shareholders, accounts must be available. I asked for the submission of such accounts to enable me to go to the Government if I thought their case was sound and well-founded with a view to getting this help. Deputy Brennan has been long enough a Member of this House—he has been here as long as I and was for many years a member of a Government—to know that that is fundamental. That information was not forthcoming. In the absence of statistics from the fishermen I was left to go on statistics available from my Department which indicate quite clearly that the industry is doing well so far as profitability is concerned.
The families of the fishermen cannot eat statistics. They need bread and butter.
This is a factual statement of the position. The Department gave figures which I assume were factual.
Are these Bórd Iascaigh Mhara figures?
No; departmental figures. I have all such figures at my disposal here.
Have the 2,000 fishermen who were protesting the other day got them?
It is my aim to co-operate in any way with the representatives of the industry.
Were the fishermen telling you lies?
No. They did not give the information sought.
May I ask one supplementary?
I said that there would be one final supplementary.
The Parliamentary Secretary has made a statement that the fishermen have over and above the cost of living increased their income by 20 per cent.
More than that.
Assuming that the cost of living index has gone up by 26 per cent——
No.
We cannot have argument at Question Time.
I want to ask a simple question. Assuming the cost of living index has gone up by 26 per cent and the fishermen's income has risen 20 per cent on top of that, that is 46 per cent, and there is a 100 per cent increased cost in fuel, that means that fishermen's income has increased 146 per cent in the past year. Is that a fact or not?
I am not aware of what college of mathematics the Deputy has graduated from. I do not know where he gets his mathematics. I made a clear-cut statement that their income had increased by more than 20 per cent in excess of the cost of living rise and in excess of operational costs.
Of fuel costs?
Including fuel costs, yes; that there was an increase in their standard by more than 20 per cent.
The Parliamentary Secretary will have to eat those words.
The income of fishermen has gone up by 146 per cent in the past 12 months?
Our activities in the Department and the activities of the National Coalition Government so far as the industry is concerned are there to be seen.
This is a very important question for those of us who live in maritime counties. All I want to ask the Parliamentary Secretary through the Chair is this: have the Government—not the Parliamentary Secretary, the Government—considered this application for a fuel subsidy from the fishermen of Ireland and have the Government turned it down? Will he give a straightforward "Yes" or "No"?
I hold responsibility for fisheries in this country and as office holder in the Government it is my responsibility to consider the question and I have considered it and have disallowed the question. That is quite clear.
The Minister for Labour need not answer the question for him. Let him answer his own question.
I was only trying to take the heat off the Parliamentary Secretary. All I wanted him to do was to say "Yes" or "No". Has this matter been considered by the Government? It is serious enough to be considered by the Government.
No. It was considered by me and it is appropriate to my office for consideration. If the case were soundly based then it would go to the Government.
Did the Parliamentary Secretary not consider this matter of sufficient importance to submit even a request to the Government?
Question No. 38.
I got a great deal of statistics on the matter and I am satisfied that nothing can be done, particularly in the absence of statistical information from the fishermen.
Will the Parliamentary Secretary——
Deputies will resume their seats. Will the Parliamentary Secretary please answer Question No. 38?
In view of the unsatisfactory nature of the reply to Question No. 37 it is my intention to raise this matter on the Adjournment.
The Deputy knows that it is past the time for giving such notice.
Then I will put it down for Tuesday. The Parliamentary Secretary did not think it important enough to bring it to the Government.