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Dáil Éireann debate -
Wednesday, 16 Apr 1975

Vol. 279 No. 11

Private Member's Business. - Secondary Schools Capitation Grants: Motion (resumed).

Debate resumed on the following motion:
That Dáil Éireann calls on the Government to provide without delay adequate capitation grants and grants in lieu of fees for voluntary secondary schools.
—(Deputy Wilson).

As I was saying last evening both sides of the House are very concerned about the problems of the voluntary schools and their financial problems. Indeed, had this scheme been introduced with some plan for the future, we would not have run into the problems we have experienced. Though it was a very laudable scheme at the time, it was not very well thought out. As a result, it has run into financial problems which we must face. We cannot turn our backs on anything, particularly in the line of education, because our future is dependent on it. Since the scheme was devised the intake in schools has been very high which I consider to be successful. We can only hope that it will continue. When the plan was devised this was not given thought. In Dublin the intake now in secondary schools is heartening, the religious bodies particularly have strained their resources to the limit. Indeed, it is a pity that they did not have the lobby they have now over the last couple of years. If they had, we might not now be experiencing such problems.

I have no doubt that when the Government examine this problem fully, money will be forthcoming. In my view it must be forthcoming. When plans are being drawn up I hope they will be for the future and not just for a year. I hope that all of the educational structures will be reviewed to make sure that these problems do not occur. We all accept that money is a scarce commodity today. We require money for housing, more money for health and more money for social welfare. We require money for all the services. It is important that no one sector of the community suffers as against another. This is why it is important that the educational field must be looked after and examined.

There were accusations from the other side of the House that we would be going back to the old scheme of elitism depriving the less well-off in our society of education. If we examine the Government's record since coming into power, the one thing we cannot be accused of is not looking after the less well-off section of our community. We are doing so to the extent that we are being subjected to the taunts of Left-wing, socialist takeovers and so on. We do not hear them talking about it now. In my view the Opposition need have no fear that the voluntary schools will be neglected. I am making a case that money must be forthcoming as soon as we can make it available. I appeal to the Minister to have it structured as soon as possible to allay the fears of the educationalists, the people who are involved, the people who could be running into trouble, and ensure that parents will have no need to worry about the operation of the scheme. We realise now—though we did not realise it when the scheme came into operation—that the whole curriculum must be widened; the general attitude towards education must be broader, which, of course, costs more. When one examines the overall cost one finds it has risen considerably. It is our duty now to grasp the nettle and ensure that our children will not be deprived of education in any way.

I spoke last evening of the whole educational system needing restructuring. Indeed, it does right from the kindergarten level to an age of eight or nine and, from there on, up to 15 or 16 years, the school-leaving age. That should be classified another sector of education. Then there is the secondary and technological sector with, finally, the third level. The situation obtaining at present militates against many people. When money is being made available and when the Minister is looking at the whole aspect of financing, I would ask him to examine it in the broad spectrum, particularly at the low level where the voice of the people might not be as loud as in other areas of education, the people who are deprived, who come from deprived homes and whose parents are not interested generally whether or not they are educated. We have a moral obligation to ensure that every facility, amenity and aid is provided for this sector. It will cost money but when we spend money on this type of education it will have the effect of giving people in that bracket a greater desire for higher education.

It would also tend to cut down the juvenile delinquency which we have in our society as a result of children being deprived. There is a challenge here to educationalists to meet this problem. I believe it has not been tackled in the past because there was not the vocal lobby which there might be in other areas of education. We cannot throw anybody to the wolves, throw anybody to one side, because they had not got a pressure group, or vocal group, or because their parents may not be interested. It would be remiss of us if we neglected these people and did not make moneys available for secondary education. This aspect of education should also be looked at.

The third level groups are well able to look after themselves and, by and large, they are getting more than their share. If you compare the figures from the lower level with the higher level you would say there is great social inequality in our society. Let us not have social inequality. Let us have equality. Let us cherish all our children equally. In the situation which operates at the moment some are cherished more equally than others.

That operates particularly at third level education where, because of their background, because they had the opportunity, they are availing of the large amounts of money which are being put into education. At the other end of the scale because they come from socially deprived homes they are cast literally to one side without any consideration whatsoever. If we are honest, this is another aspect of our education which we must look at. I would urge the Minister to urge his colleagues in Government to make the moneys available. I am aware that money is in short supply. I am involved in a local authority housing committee. We are looking for money and various people involved in other aspects of social welfare are looking for money.

The time has come when we must deliver the goods to these schools which in the past have made it possible for our children to be educated at no great cost to the State. Over the years they were taken for granted. They do a good job and they do it reasonably. Now the costs have caught up with everybody and inflation has caught up with us all. We have now got to face the realities of life and come out with a firm decision to say: "Yes. We want the moneys made available." I urge the Minister to do this. If he does we can look forward to a better educational standard in our country. I know the Minister is conscious of the needs. Like all Ministers, he obviously is tied to what is given to him. He must consider the purse strings. It is up to him now to deliver the goods and ensure that there will be no breakdown in the secondary level education which has done so much for Ireland. We now have the obligation in this House to do something for it.

Tá mé chun labhairt thar cheann na scoileanna, na bpáistí agus na dtuismitheoirí san limistéar iartharach den tír ó Thír Chonaill go Corcaí, go dtí an Roinn. Tá áthas orm go bhfuil Aire na Gaeltachta anseo agus iarraim air, achainím air agus impím air pé cumhacht atá aige a húsáid i dteannta leis an Aire Oideachais ar an Aire Airgeadais sa dóigh go ndéanfar leasú ar an bhfadhb uafásach atá i rí an oideachas sna meánscoileanna agus sna scoileanna a bhaineann an rún seo leo. Bhíos ag léamh na bpáipéirí agus níor shíl mé go raibh an fhadhb chomh mór san Iarthar ins na Gaeltachtaí agus ins na ceantracha cúnga go léir agus atá sí. Má bhíonn ganntanas airgid san oideachas sa tír, seo an áit is mó a dhéanfaidh sé díobháil.

Is iad seo na daoine, na tuismitheoirí agus na daltaí go gcuirfidh sé isteach níos mó orthu ná in aon áit eile sa tír mar níl an mhaoin acu ansin. Tá daoine ar choistí i mbailte in oirthear na tíre agus b'fhéidir gurab é an rud atá an tAire Oideachais ag dréim a dhéanamh ná é a fhágaint faoi na coistí seo, coistí paróiste, coistí scoileanna airgead a chur ar fáil d'iaroideachas bunscoile. B'fhéidir nach é sin an rud atá i gceist aige ach sin an rud atá ag tárlú. Tá tuismitheoirí agus daoine eile nach maith leo an scéal a bheith mar atá agus tá siad "ag chipeáil" isteach mar adeir siad sa Ghaeltacht, chun na scoileanna seo a choinneáil ag obair.

Más é sin an rud atá ag teastáil ón Aire Oideachais níl an ceart aige. Tá sé sin ag tárlú i n-áiteacha mar adúirt an Teachta Faulkner mar Dún Dealgan ach ní féidir le muintir na Gaeltachta agus muintir na gceantracha gcúnga i n-iarthar na tíre, ní féidir leo scoltacha san áit sin a choinneáil ar siúl agus a reachtáil agus dá bhrí sin beidh neamairt mór á dhéanamh in iaroideachas bunscoile sna Gaeltachtaí agus sna ceantracha seo. Sin é an fáth go n-impím mar seo ar an mbeirt Airí agus go speisialta ar Aire na Gaeltachta mar urlabhraí don Ghaeltacht. Tá a fhios agam anois ón méid sin litreacha a fuair mé le coichís anuas go bhfuil an fhadhb seo ann agus gur gá don Rialtas, gur gá don Aire Airgeadais teacht isteach agus fóirithint ar na scoltacha seo ar fud na tíre go léir.

Mar is eol go speisialta d'Aire na Gaeltachta agus don Aire Oideachais fósta agus do chách sé an rud is mó a thug cúnamh agus cabhair don Ghaeltacht an saor oideachas iarscoile agus an saor thaisteal a bhí le fáil ag na daoine ansin. Go dtí gur chuir Fianna Fáil saor oideachas agus saor thaisteal ar fáil bhí sé costasach ar na tuismitheoirí sna ceantracha seo oideachas a sholáthar dá gclann. Ach tháinig athrú mór ar an scéal seo agus deirim leis an Aire Oideachais gur bhain siad buntáiste agus úsáid as na scéimeanna oideachais a cuireadh ar siúl sé nó le seacht mbliana anuas ach anois tá an dainséar ann. Níl ach fíor-bheagán scoileanna nó pobal-scoltacha ar siúl. Tá súil agam go mbeidh níos mó. Ins na scoltacha seo atá á reachtáil ag na deoisí, na sagairt, na bráithre agus na mná rialta muna mbíonn airgead ar fáil go gairid agus go leor de beidh dul siar agus cúlú déanta ar oideachas ins na Gaeltachtaí agus i n-iarthar na tíre.

Is cuma cad iad na scéimeanna a cuireadh ar siúl agus is cuma cé hiad na tionscail a cuirtear ar siúl sa Ghaeltacht déanfaidh siad feabhas mór. Tá feabhas mór tagtha ar an scéal. Chuir an Páirtí Fhianna Fáil monarcha ar siúl i nGaoth Dobhair agus i n-áiteacha eile mar sin agus tá an polasaí sin á reachtáil ag Aire na Gaeltachta anois agus tá súil agam go leanfaidh sé go mór le saol eacnamaíochta na Gaeltachta agus iarthar na tíre a fheabhsú. Ach seo an feabhas is mó gur féidir a chur ar shaol mhuintir na Gaeltachta agus mhuintir iarthar na tíre. Muna mbeidh sé ar chumas daltaí iarscoile oideachas a fháil ins na meánscoileanna atá i gceist againn anseo ní bheidh siad ábalta postanna a ghlacadh sa Ghaeltacht nó áit ar bith eile sa tír agus cuirfidh sé cúl ar fhorbairt na Gaeilge agus forbairt an chultúir Gaelaí.

Is ceist airgid í seo. Sin príomhfhréamh na trioblóide. Tá costaisí ag méadú i n-aghaidh an lae agus ní haon mhaith don Aire Oideachais ag rá go bhfuil an Rialtas, an Roinn Oideachais agus é féin mar Aire Oideachais ag cur £X milliún púnt ar fáil d'oideachas. Níl ciall ar bith leis sin. Chuir Rúnaí Párlaiminte an Aire Talmhaíochta agus Iascaigh béim air sin inné. Dúirt sé: "Féach, ní ceart do na hiascairí a bheith ar stailc. Chuireamar £X milliún ar fáil." Rinne an tAire Tailte é sin i rith díospóireachta inniu: "Féach, tá £4 milliún curtha ar fáil i mbliana do cheannacht talún." Ní haon mhaitheas é sin mar más fiú £4 milliún inniu, má tá sé ionann le £1 milliún chúig bhliain ó shin ní haon mhaitheas a bheith gcaint ar fhigiúirí airgid mar sin.

Tá súil agam nuair a thiocfas an tAire Oideachais chun cainte ar an rún seo go mbeidh sé ábalta a rá linn anseo sa Teach agus leis an tír go mbeidh fóirithint thábhachtach á dhéanamh aige agus ag an Rialtas ar an fhadhb seo.

Is iarscoláire de chuid na mBráithre Críostúla mé féin agus tá a fhios agam go gcuirfear milleán mór ar an Aire Oideachais má ligeann sé an saghas oideachais atá á thabhairt ag na bráithre agus ag na mná rialta in aer. Ní ceart é a ligint in aer agus molaim an óráid a rinne an Teachta O'Connell anseo aréir.

Bhí sé go han-mhaith.

Chuir sé ina luí ar an Teach agus go speisialta ar an Aire Oideachais an gá a bhí le fóirthint anseo i mBaile Átha Cliath. D'aontaigh mé le gach focal dá ndúirt sé chomh fada agus a bhaineann sé le Baile Átha Cliath agus leis an gceantar i n-oirthear na tíre ach aontaim leis go bhfuil an scéal go dona anseo, go mbeidh an scéal níos measa anseo i mBaile Átha Cliath agus i n-áiteanna mar sin, ach cibé cé chomh dona agus a bhéas sé ní bheidh sé leath chomh dona agus an toradh a bhéas ar an bpolasaí faoi láthair atá ag an Aire Oideachais. Muna dtugann sé an t-airgead, má bhíonn sé ag braith ar dhreamanna ar fud na tíre, coistí de gach saghas teacht i gcabhair ar iaroideachas bunscoile ins na ceantracha a bhfuilim a caint fúthu, má ligeann sé dó sin tárlú ní thárlóidh sé. Na coistí a lua mé tá go leor obair le déanamh acu. Níl an mhaoin céanna acu agus atá i n-áiteacha eile den tír. Tá siad ag braith ar an Rialtas saor oideachas a thabhairt dóibh. Má dhruideann na scoileanna seo nó má laghdaítear ar mheán na ndaltaí ins na scoileanna beidh neamairt mhor á dhéanamh in oideachas ins na réigiúin seo. Tá súil agam go labhróidh Aire na Gaeltachta agus go dtabharfaidh tacaíocht don chás speisialta seo ar son na ndaoine sin. Mar tá níos mó buntáiste ná buntáiste amháin le fáil as pé airgead a chaithfear ins na contaethe a luaigh mé. Caithfear an Ghaeilge agus an cultúr Gaelach a choinneál beo agus a mhéadú. Caithfear an teanga a choinneáil beo agus a mhéadú agus a scaipeadh ar fud na tíre. Caithfear slí beatha a chur ar fáil do na daoine óga ins na ceantracha seo. Caithfear oideachas a chur ar fáil dóibh. Caithfidh siad a bheith ábalta postanna a ghlacadh sa Ghaeltacht, postanna tecniciúla, postanna gur gá oideachas dóibh agus is gá oideachas do gach post eile faoi láthair.

Fuair mé litreacha ó shagairt agus ó bhraíthre ins na ceantracha sin agus níl dabht ar bith ann. Níl méadú ann. Cuireann siad síos go beacht ar an sceal atá ann faoi láthair. Ní féidir leis na múinteoirí na scoltacha a reachtáil. Níl go leor scoltacha ann. Tá feabhas mór tagtha ar an scéal ach is gá in áiteacha breis scoltacha a thógáil. Dá bhrí sin impím ar an mbeirt Airí cás a dhéanamh leis an Aire Airgeadais agus gheobhaidh siad gach cuidiú agus cabhair ón taobh seo den Teach. Na daoine seo go bhfuilim ag trácht orthu bhain siad úsáid ón gcéad lá ar cuireadh saor thaisteal ar siúl agus ón gcéad lá ar cuireadh saor oideachas ar siúl do gach páiste ag fágáil na bunscoile. Tháinig méadú mór ar na daltaí ins na meánscoileanna agus i scoileanna na gceantracha seo. Dá bhrí sin, tá siúl agam go ndúirt mé go leor chun a leíriú gur ceist thábhachtach í seo agus tá fóirithint ón Rialtas riachtanach. Níl ciall le rud ar bith eile.

Minister for Education (Deputy R. Burke) and Deputy C. Murphy rose.

An tAire Oideachais.

Nach bhfuil cead ag daoine eile labhairt?

Níor thóg mé leath uair a chlog.

Níor thóg an Teachta Cunningham ach leath uair.

An tAire anois.

Cé mhéid ama a bheidh ag an Aire?

I welcome the opportunity which has been afforded to the House to discuss aspects of secondary education. May I say at the outset that to oppose this motion would be like saying that one was against virtue. That arises from the way the motion is phrased. As the House has already heard from the Government benches and from speakers before me, we do not oppose it. To hear the Opposition speakers one would imagine that there existed just a very simple problem, that it was all of our making and that we could very readily solve it. So much was this the case that I was not surprised to hear myself invited, in the exuberance of one contribution, to remove inflation. I only wish I could.

I can understand this sort of approach in political terms and I can deal with it, much as I regret to see the subject of education and the plight of certain schools made the object of this sort of exercise. But there was an underlying suggestion of something worse, a suggestion that came above the surface at least twice. This I want to dispose of immediately. This was the suggestion of "forcing the religious out of education".

Will the Minister give us the source? Who was the author?

Mr. R. Burke

Deputy Faulkner. Coming from Fianna Fáil this sounded like the expression of a guilt complex, subconscious perhaps but very real at that. This Government occupy a consistent and unequivocal position in this matter. I quote from the Taoiseach's speech of 21st February, 1974:

I understand from the Minister for Education that in the course of the discussions which he initiated in relation to certain functions of the educational administration system, a statement was submitted by the clerical religious representatives who participated in the discussions with which the representatives of the secondary schools in the Protestant sector who considered the statement were in agreement and with which they wished to be associated. It refers to the need for effective statutory guarantees in regard to such matters as the continued existence of church schools and equality of opportunity for the establishment of new schools, the renovation and extension of existing schools, the availability of teachers for such schools, et cetera. It further refers to the question of guarantees in relation to comprehensive religious instruction formation and worship in accordance with the rights of parents in all schools. I am in full agreement with the Minister's view that he should discuss these matters with the interests concerned and set about taking such measures as will remove any doubt of confusion in relation to them for the future.”

The Minister for Finance, Deputy Ryan, was no less forthright when he said:

For my colleagues in Government I give this firm assurance that in pursuing our objective of ensuring the best possible return for money expended in education we will not countenance any diminution of the role which religious guardians played and continue to play in the formation of our youth. This is a role of immense value. A nation which claims to cherish all its children equally must ensure not merely equal outward forms of education but equal rights for the parents of such children in the selection of their children's schools. This involves freedom for parents to choose denominational or secular education, to admit the right of one without denying the other.

Will the Minister give the source of the quotation?

Mr. R. Burke

It is a quotation from a speech made by the Minister for Finance to the Terenure Past Pupils' Union. I would also like to quote from a recent speech made by my colleague who is present here tonight, the Minister for the Gaeltacht, and who may have the opportunity of speaking later. When in Tulla, County Clare, recently he said:

Religious orders have made an immense contribution to the development of post-primary education. I believe they can and must continue to play a key role in the future of Irish education and I am convinced that the overwhelming majority of the Irish people wish them to do so.

Why were statements by Ministers of this Government necessary? Precisely because of the sort of suggestions being made here in this debate. Why are these suggestions being made? Because, I suggest, of the realisation of where the roots of responsibility for the present situation really lie; in the quite unrealistic arrangements made at the time of the introduction of the so-called free education scheme and in the pressures exerted, unfairly in many cases, on schools to go against their judgment in some cases, in accepting those arrangements.

I know that the late Donogh O'Malley was fond of saying sometimes that "nothing was free". I remember also the pressures exerted in the terms, including the term "Christian charity how are you" used by him to describe those whom he knew and who knew themselves that they were being exploited but could do nothing about it. It was fairly commonly suspected at the time, with good reason, that he did not have the full approval of his Minister for Finance, later the Taoiseach. We all know that circuit that Taoiseach be-took himself to during the 1969 election and what reassurances he must have had to give. The only reason I mention this now——

That is conjecture.

Mr. R. Burke

——is that I find a recent literary contribution from the Leader of the Opposition, the leader of the Fianna Fáil Party, Deputy Lynch, strangely at variance with the views expressed by his spokesmen in this debate.

Let us talk about money.

Mr. R. Burke

Are they aware of his new-found creed or are they indeed aware of it but also aware of the lack of any real basis for it? What is one to make of the plain statement of Deputy Lynch, leader of the Fianna Fáil Party? I quote from The Irish Times of the 11th April, 1975 where he says:

Since before the formation of the State the Churches have laid the foundations in education and shouldered the responsibility. We are now witnessing the restoration of the responsibility for education and its control to the pluralist community. The people and their representatives are being asked to take direct responsibility. The Churches are assuming a new, low profile in education and are seeking the right and the freedom to teach Christianity as part of the comprehensive education system. It is the task of the politician to create the framework for this new partnership between the lay and religious in education. It is the task of the religious to assist and encourage the laity to take greater responsibility, and with it increased authority.

In the development of a new partnership in education between the Churches and the State, we must preserve the best traditions of the existing system while we promote the new and more exciting systems of interdenominational education, and pass on their management to the laity. The evolution and establishment of this new partnership between the Churches and the State is one of the major challenges of our time. It calls for a clear perception of the educational objectives by the politician and a special sensitivity for the beliefs and motivations of his constituents.

Further on, while it does not have any bearing on this particular debate, he said:

The denominational nature of primary education north and south of the Border should also be gradually phased out.

How is that statement to be explained in the context of the appeals made by his spokesmen in this debate for the continuance of the present system and the imputation by Fianna Fáil to the Government today of a desire to get rid of it? I do not know where the Leader of the Opposition got this message. It is certainly not the message which is coming to me from responsible authorities with whom I have to negotiate in respect of the educational system. It does not seem to me to be the message coming to his spokesman on education.

On a point of order, could we get the Minister to the subject matter of the motion which is capitation grants and grants in lieu of fees?

I think the Minister must be allowed to make his speech in his own way and I would ask that there be no further interruptions. There is a time limit and it is particularly wrong to interrupt and erode the time of the Member in possession.

I do not want to waste time but I want the Minister to speak on the motion.

Mr. R. Burke

Could I, perhaps, get some enlightenment from Deputy Faulkner, who spoke in such glowing terms of the Christian Brothers' school in Dundalk, terms in which I wholeheartedly concur, as to whether he can identify the "pluralist community" to which the Brothers are to "restore", —"restore" mark you—the responsibility and control of that school? If that philosophy were to be applied all round, where would I find voluntary secondary schools for whom to increase the capitation grant? Is not this the kind of philosophy which seemed to imply the propagation of the community school as the only school for the future? I must reiterate here, for the record and for fear of misrepresentation, that my party were never against the community school idea, where there was consent, but we were, and remain, against any idea that it should be the only type of school. We were also aware, and I am becoming increasingly so, of the much greater relative cost of these schools and the extent to which their establishment and development eats into the resources made available for education services generally.

When we were in Opposition we warned the Government of the costs to which they were committing themselves by over-expanding this sector and the expectations to which they were giving rise. We were not listened to then and now it is being suggested that it is all our fault anyhow.

There are several aspects to the major problem of the survival of the voluntary secondary school and the solution does not lie, in my view, in continued increases in capitation grants. May I illustrate this by referring again to the case of the Christian Brothers' school, Dundalk, which was raised by Deputy Faulkner? By the way, when Deputy Cunningham was speaking in Irish—I hope I am not misquoting him —he said that the Minister for Education would be seriously blamed if he lets the Brothers' type of education die. I agree fully with him, but that, it seems to me, does not tally with the quotation I have just read from his leader.

The school in Dundalk has increased its enrolment between 1968-69 and 1974-75 by only 73 pupils, from 336 to 409. But its staff has increased by a total of eight teachers and in school salary terms alone this represents an outlay of £3,200 per annum by the Christian Brother community. The point I want to make, as a matter of fact, which has to be taken into account by the State, no less than by the community of religious concerned, is that an important part of the problem stems from lack of personnel in the religious community concerned. There is a limit to the extent to which this can be countered by increases in capitation grants.

The second point I want to make, purely again as a matter of fact, is that in the case of this school, the total staff of 14 in 1968-69 were giving teaching service to the extent of 369 hours per week, an average of 26 hours per teacher. I stress "average". In 1974-75, however, the total staff of 22 were giving teaching service to the extent of 427 hours per week, an average of 19 hours per teacher. I am not drawing any specific conclusions from these figures. I simply cite them as a factual background to the demands made in the course of this debate for practically unlimited increases in capitation grants to finance practically unlimited increases in new teaching posts.

The problems in relation to the financing of schools which I have to face and which I am determined to solve are not of my making and they are not capable of being solved overnight either. In the allocation of financial resources for the various services for the different sections of the educational system priorities have to be established in relation to expenditure within the overall allocation of funds available. In this respect expenditure includes expenses of all kinds, whether on teachers' salaries, equipment, grants and scholarships to students as well as grants to schools, both current and capital. In our circumstances we continue to have an annual increase in the number of pupils in our schools at all levels, unlike the situation in many other countries.

A programme of development requires, accordingly, a carefully planned strategy of graduated increases in expenditure over a reasonable period of time. The educational services may claim a share of public funds both as a long-term economic investment and because of their contribution as a social service to the welfare of the community. It would, however, be taking an unrealistically narrow view of the role of education in the context of the social services to divorce consideration of the level of appropriate expenditure on it from that of the total resources available for the social services generally.

I have stated, and indeed other members of the Government have stated on other occasions, that, having regard to the general level of the social welfare and health services at the time this Government took office, it was appropriate that a particular emphasis should have been placed on raising this level to an acceptable standard and that priority had to be given by the Government to bringing about such an improvement in standards during their first two years in office. There would be no point in burying one's head in the sand and hoping that by ignoring present economic difficulties they would somehow pass away. The facts of the general economic situation cannot be ignored or gainsaid merely by a policy of pretence or make belief.

Before the Estimates for the Public Service for 1975 were published there were prophets of doom forecasting a serious cutback in the overall provision for the educational services. In the event these prophets of doom have been consoled by the fact that there has been an increase of £41 million in the provisions, as they appear in the Book of Estimates, for the relevant Votes.

As Minister for Education I would, naturally, have wished that the allocation in the Votes for Education would have been greater. I had allowed an increase in the grant in lieu of tuition fees to secondary schools as from the beginning of the school year 1974-75, the present school year. I subsequently arranged for the substitution of £300 for the figure of £185 as the relevant limit for the determination of eligibility of boarding schools for the purpose of payment of the grant of £35 in lieu of tuition fees in respect of pupils attending. In the circumstances I felt that in connection with the provision to be made in the Estimates for expenditure for 1975 particular attention needed to be given to the case of primary schools and my proposals for the introduction of a special capitation grant per pupil was for the purpose of putting these schools on a more reasonable financial basis and thus enable them to meet their commitments to all children, including those who might not have the opportunity of a full secondary and third level education.

I am satisfied that that decision was right though I felt at the time, and still feel, that the situation of the secondary schools also deserves special consideration. It is not only in relation to current grant support that the position of the secondary schools had deteriorated in the period of office of the previous Administration. That Administration allowed a successive annual decline in the allocation of moneys for secondary school building purposes. In 1975 I reversed that trend by the allocation of £2,500,000 for such schools and also £2,500,000 for vocational schools. I have arranged for a three-year schedule of building projects which, on the basis of present costs, will require an expenditure of £3.8 million in 1976 and £4 million in 1977 in the case of secondary schools.

The position at present is that because of the neglect—if the words "deliberate sabotage" would be too strong I use the word neglect—by the previous Administration of these schools, this Government are faced at this time of serious general economic difficulties, affecting all countries and all sectors of our community at home, with the necessity of taking such measures as will enable the voluntary secondary schools to be put on a reasonable financial basis. I have met representatives of the associations representing the authorities of all these schools both of the majority and the minority persuasion and I had the case which they put to me fully examined. I accept that all the schools in question are in need of assistance but there seems also to be varying degrees of need for different categories of school, apart from the inevitable degree of variations as between individual schools.

These varying degrees of need for different categories of school are represented by the special circumstances affecting the schools. There are schools in old premises which have come near the end of their useful life and need to be replaced. There are those schools which now require permanent accommodation because of an increased influx of students over the years and, to put it at its mildest, because of the lackadaisical policy of the previous Administration of catering for the pupils in prefabricated classrooms. They are all very well in their way and desirable for a limited period provided there is a clear-cut policy for their replacement over a reasonable period. In the case of both of these categories of school the authorities are finding it very difficult to undertake additional financial burdens for the purpose of securing the required permanent accommodation. There is another category of school in financial difficulty. Many of the school authorities who are repaying loans in respect of building work which they undertook in the last few years are finding it difficult to meet their annual repayment instalments.

The motion refers to capitation grants and grants in lieu of tuition fees. The capitation grants for secondary schools have not been increased since 1st August, 1969. The previous Administration saw fit to make no alteration in these grants despite the understanding at the time of the introduction of the free education scheme that these schools which, for one reason or another, were unable to join the scheme, would not be discriminated against. I consider that despite the present difficult economic situation, and having regard to the representations received from the associations representative of all the school authorities, the question of allowing an improvement in the rate of the capitation grant should be carefully examined at this time as part of the general review which is being made of the situation as a whole. This is being done.

Deputy Faulkner, speaking last night made what I thought was an interesting admission which I should like to refer to. In relation to his attitude towards the schools in question he said that anybody who read his speeches would see that he said he was concerned about comprehensive education and where it was made available was a matter of indifference to him, whether it was made in secondary schools, vocational schools, comprehensive schools or community schools, provided the schools were large enough to provide the wide variety of courses necessary to develop the aptitudes and abilities of all the pupils. I agree that that was the case towards the latter part of the term of the Administration of Deputy Faulkner. I put it on the record simply that those who are interested in these matters may advert to the Deputy's statement of his position.

I have placed the matter of financial support required for the voluntary secondary schools before the Government and it has been and is receiving very full and careful consideration. I am in a position to state that additional financial assistance will be forthcoming for these schools and I shall make an announcement in relation to the details of such additional support in the near future.

I can assure the Minister his speech has not brought satisfaction to anyone. To speak in terms of general review still being undertaken and an announcement to be made soon will not cut a great deal of ice with the representatives of the voluntary secondary schools. Indeed, at a meeting held in Wicklow town last Monday night—Deputy Timmins will bear me out on this— the accountant of a school mentioned that they had sent six deputations to the Department. When faced with this Fianna Fáil resolution the Minister has simply come up with verbiage but no money. This will be no consolation to them.

All the schools and the authorities concerned have now left is consideration of the various options open to them. If we look at these options we find they are somewhat shattering. The debts are great. I have an income and expenditure account for the year ended 30th June, 1974 for the Dominican post-primary school in Wicklow town which shows a deficit of £13,613, or £44 per pupil. This school and the other voluntary schools must now consider the options. They were awaiting the outcome of this debate to see if money would be forthcoming immediately. Before considering these options I should like to comment on the Minister's use of the words "practically unlimited increases". That is not what this motion seeks, it seeks adequate increases without delay.

I now want to consider the options open to the schools. Do they embark on a system of voluntary subscriptions? Do they consider total closure? Do they consider closure for part of the year, do they consider opting out of the free education scheme? Dealing with that last option, schools would be most reluctant to opt out of this scheme. The case would then arise where the children of the less well-off section of the community would have to leave school. This would be a complete reversal of the aim of equality of opportunity for all children which we all desire.

There is another option whereby schools might close for part of the year which has become a very distinct possibility. Heating and light costs are very high. Possible closure for part of the year might help reduce these costs but it would not be in the best interests of the children and I know the communities would not relish the idea. The third option of total closure would be even more drastic; in fact they could not carry on at all. The schools wish to see that avoided at all costs.

There is then the other option of voluntary subscriptions to try to meet the shortfall which is completely opposed to the spirit of a free education scheme. Many would rightly consider it as the thin edge of the wedge, as being a retrograde step in education. I have not been satisfied nor do I feel the teachers, management or the parents will be satisfied with the Minister's utterances this evening. We simply had a "scissors and paste" attitude but the goods were not delivered. The goods must be and should have been delivered in this forum. This is the place where moneys are made available. Is it a case of the Minister trying for a double bite of the cherry, a certain amount of publicity now, announcements to follow very soon and perhaps the glory inherent in such announcements? I would give the Minister the glory of such announcements were they sufficient to maintain schools which we, as parents, wish for our children and we see as an integral part of our way of life. Management and teachers in schools being completely burdened with the strain of trying to finance these schools is a ridiculous situation. Rather they should be devoting their energies and attention to the factors involved in meeting the ever-growing demands of education. Unfortunately, this burden is still placed on them. I regret that the Minister could not see his way to improving these allowances.

A Cheann Comhairle, ba mhaith liomsa mar Aire na Gaeltachta glacadh leis an deis seo chun cúpla focal a rá san díospóireacht. Tugann an dhíospóireacht seo deis dúinne go léir ar gach taobh an Tí ár meas agus ár dtuiscint a chur in iúl don lucht stiúrtha agus do na fóirne múinteoireachta ins na meánscoileanna deonacha ar fuaid na tíre.

Rinne an Teachta Cunningham tagairt do chúrsaí oideachais ins na ceanntair Ghaeltachta. Rinne sé tagairt go h-áirithe don pháirt a bhaineann le cúrsaí oideachais sa Ghaeltacht. Aontaím go hiomlán leis ach is oth liom a rá go bhfuair mé amach go lua tar éis mé bheith ceaptha mar Aire na Gaeltachta go raibh an sceíl go dona ar fuaid na Gaeltachta chomh fada is a baineann sé le cúrsaí meánoideachais. Agus ba mhaith liomsa a chur in iúl don Teach go poiblí go bhfuair mé mar Aire gach cabhair, gach cúnamh agus gach tacaíocht ón Aire Oideachas Risteárd de Búrca nuair a bhí aon fhadhb agamsa maidir le cúrsaí oideachais in aon áit sa Ghaeltacht.

Deinim tagairt go háirithe do chúpla áiteanna in a raibh fadhbanna an-mhór maidir le cúrsaí a meánoideachais nó iar-bhunoideachais. Deinim tagairt do cheantar Chorr na Móna in iarthar na Gaillmhe. Bhí ceárdscoil bheag ann. Ní raibh "senior cycle" ar fáil don na daltaí scoile ann. Bhí ar na daltaí scoile freastal ar mheánscoile sa Ghaeltacht.

Tar éis an scéal sin agus an fhadhb sin a phlé agam leis an Aire Oideachais ghlac sé go fonnmhar leis na moltaí a thug mé dó agus tá an-áthas ormsa a rá go bhfuil "senior cycle" ar fáil anois ins na gceantar beag sin.

Tá suim an Aire Oideachais sa Ghaeltacht le feiscint arís maidir leis na fadhbanna móra atá ag muintir na n-oileán Gaeltachta sa tír seo. Nuair a bhí sé i nGallaimh cúpla seachtain ó shin rinne sé tagairt don fhadhbmhór atá in Oileán Inis Mór agus na h-Oileáin Árainn maidir le cúrsaí meánoideachais. Tá sé ag obair faoi láthair agus tá an Roinn ag obair faoi láthair chun socraithe oíríúnacha a dhéanamh chun go mbeadh cúrsaí, meánoideachais nó iar-bhunoideachais ar fáil do dhaltaí scoil ins na h-Oileáin Árainn. Tá fadhbanna an-mhór ann. Níl an Rialtas seo ach dhá bhliain i mbun oifige. Tá go leor deacrachtaí ar fuaid na Gaeltachta maidir le cúrsaí oideachais. Níl aon mhaith bheith ag déanamh tagairt do na deacrachtaí sin faoi mar a dhein an Teachta Cunningham go h-áirithe nuair a bhí Páirtí Fhianna Fáil i mbun oifige ar feadh 16 mbliana. Bhí deis acu na fadhbanna oideachais ar fud na Gaeltachta a réiteach ach ní mórán a rinne siad.

(Cur isteach.)

Beidh seans ag an Teachta ar a 7.15 p.m.

Chuir an tAire Oideachais agus a chuireann sé i gcónaí suim i bhfadhbanna oideachais sa Ghaeltacht. Ta dul chun cinn á dhéanamh againn ann faoi láthair agus leanaimíd ar aghaidh leis an obair sin. Níl aon dabht ach go bhfuil tábhacht ar leith ag baint le cúrsaí oideachais i bhforbairt na Gaeltachta. Tá go leor deacrachtaí ann. Ní fuirist iad a réiteach i dtréimhse beag, i dtréimhse gairid ach leanaimíd ar aghaidh leis an dea-obair agus tá an-áthas ormsa go bhfuil an deis seo agam mar Aire na Gaeltachta mo bhuíochas a ghabháil go poiblí leis an Aire Oideachais as ucht na cabhrach a thug sé dom mar Aire agus do mhuintir na Gaeltachta nuair a bhí aon cheist ann le maidir le h-oideachas.

I am very pleased to have an opportunity to contribute even for a brief period to this debate. Having dealt with the situation in relation to post-primary education in the Gaeltacht which was referred to by Deputy Cunningham, I want to avail of this opportunity to say a few words in general about the attitude of the Government and to make it quite clear and to spell out to this House the attitude of the Government to the question of the voluntary secondary schools. The Minister for Education very kindly referred to a recent speech of mine in Tulla, County Clare, where the secondary school was celebrating the 25th anniversary of its opening. I referred to the role of the religious orders and to their contribution to the development of secondary education. I said then clearly that we in the Government fully appreciated the vital role which these people have played in the development of secondary education. I further said that it was my opinion, and it is also the opinion of the Government, that the religious orders, having played a vital role in the past, have a role to play now and will have a role to play in the future. Most important of all, I believe that the vast majority of the people of this country wish the religious orders to continue to play this role. For that reason the Government, and the Minister for Education, fully appreciate and fully realise the difficulties which confront these schools at present.

It has been implied by some Deputies opposite that this Government are in some way ambivalent in their attitude to the voluntary secondary schools and that we are reluctant to come to their support.

Red herrings.

It has even been suggested that the Government do not regard education generally as an area of priority in the disbursal of public funds. Nothing could be further from the truth. This Government are committed to the support of our educational institutions, committed to the support of the voluntary secondary schools, committed to the principle of freedom of choice for parents in the selection of schools for their children. As long as the parents wish to send their children to voluntary secondary schools, then for so long shall this Government honour that choice by ensuring that these schools have the resources to cater for their needs.

The Minister for Education has referred to the international economic difficulties which are hitting the world, and have been for some time. We realise the impact of inflation and so forth, on our secondary schools. I am confident, however, that despite the financial difficulties, inflation and so forth, the Government will ensure that provision is made to enable these schools to continue their excellent work. I base this confidence first on the adequacy with which the Government have already dealt with the needs of our primary schools. I believe it can also be seen in the sympathy with which the Government view the difficulties of the voluntary schools and our desire to alleviate them. More important than that I base this confidence on the determination of the Government to come to the support of the voluntary schools and on the able manner in which the Minister for Education has articulated the special needs of these schools in the Cabinet and outside it. I am confident that these schools will continue to play a vital role and make a major contribution to the development of education. I am happy to be a member of a Government which recognises this and will give practical support to those people.

Could Deputy Dowling have five minutes of my time?

I will be very brief. I was at recent meetings in Walkinstown and Ballyfermot where I listened attentively to the problems outlined by the parents and teachers in relation to the plight of the schools. The Minister and members of the Government have come to the wrong meeting because apparently they did not speak about the matter which is before the House at the moment. We have an educational policy, a defence policy, a social welfare policy and a policy for all the Departments. These Departments must be fully funded. The educational policy must cope with an on-going problem. It must be updated. Money must be made available to ensure up-dating and progressive development. Demands will continue to be made on Governments to meet this ever-developing situation. That is part of our job.

It is the job of the Minister for Education to ensure that funds are available to meet this on-going situation. We cannot have stagnation. The call which has gone out to the school managers and to other people responsible is: "go back to your bank manager tomorrow and see if you can get an overdraft to enable you to continue until such time as money is made available". The nuns and brothers are to be tax collectors. They are to go around raising funds until the Government wake up to their responsibility.

It would be inconsistent if backbench members of the Government voted against this motion here tonight. Boloney was spoken here by the Minister. If we want quotes we can go to a bookstall and get a book of quotes. We know all about the situation over the years and blaming someone is no solution to any problem. This is a practical problem, a definite problem, and a problem which we must deal with here in the House. Money must be found to ensure the continuity of education. As Deputy Murphy said, there could be a reduction in teaching staffs, and a reduction in the standard of education, and schools closing for a period. Is that what the Minister wants? He should tell us clearly. The Minister is acting like Santa Claus. Santa Claus will be here next Christmas and the children can be happy then. That is no use to the people who are running the educational institutions today. We want to ensure that the Minister will become fully aware of the situation. Members who have spoken here and, indeed, Deputy Wilson in his presentation of the case, have clearly put the case on behalf of the unfortunate people involved. The Minister and the Government have a responsibility. Lip service is no use. The Minister can bring in colleagues to make contributions to the debate but that will not solve the problem. What is required is money. Plenty of money has been found for Departments that can be described as vote-catching Departments. We want to ensure that the weakest section is fully protected. Education is an important Department. The future of the children is at stake and it is up to the Government to meet their responsibility towards the weaker sections in our community.

I was very gratified with the contribution Deputy O'Connell made and to the tribute he paid to the Brothers who educated him and without whom, as he said himself, he would not have been able to qualify as a doctor because, as he stated, before free education existed at all, they educated him free. This was refreshing because a major industry in this country is sharpening the tooth to bite the hand that feeds; another major industry, of course, is prating every mongrel theory that comes from elsewhere.

Deputy O'Brien complained that the late Donough O'Malley launched his scheme without due preparation. There is a tide in the affairs of men and Donough O'Malley saw that tide and took it at the flood to the advantage of the country. I was going to ask one of the ushers to bring in a barrel for the red herrings. Red herrings were produced all over the place. The Minister for Education produced some. He was like a conjuror who produces rabbits out of a hat. The Minister for the Gaeltacht produced his own quota of scadáns. All we wanted to hear was when he was going to come across with the money.

The Minister for Finance, on record at Terenure, said he was fully behind the voluntary schools. It is easy to picture the scene at that junketing, spectacles flashing, the Minister wafting from right to left. When, however, we ask him for money to maintain the voluntary schools we have no message here that he will increase the capitation grants and grants in lieu of fees. That is the basic demand we are making.

I would like to reject the adjective put in front of the education scheme —the so-called "free" education scheme. I know in the area from which I come, where the primroses and the blackthorn are blooming now, that buses are taking children to school. Without that scheme they would not be doing so because there was no school there to cater for children when I was being brought up. Let there be no mistake about it, it was a worthwhile scheme and we should dedicate ourselves to maintaining it. It is not true that this party are dedicated to one type of school in our community. Anyone who has any experience in education will know that variety is one of the great things in education. We are dedicated to the development of community schools in certain areas and we would like a little leadership on occasion from the Minister for Education in that regard. We are not dedicated to interfering with the development of other types of schools.

The Minister when talking about Dundalk referred to the fact that there were eight teachers costing £3,200 on that staff and he referred to the fall in the number of religious working in that school and indicated this caused the problem there. In fact, it can be contended, and it can be defended, that even if there are religious there £400per capita should be available to the qualified teacher working on a staff the same as the lay teachers in a particular school. I want to pin down ths idea that education is not a social service. I submit it is the most important social service. I said this in my contribution last night and I reiterate it now. It is the social service that carries the greatest burden of responsibility for the future and, if the Minister for Education allows his Cabinet to get away with under-subsidisation of education, that will lie heavily on his conscience. He has a great responsibility both to the present and to the future.

Nobody is denying that there is an element of economic crisis, but it is the duty of the Government to establish priorities. It is the duty of the Government to establish education as a priority. It is the duty of the Government by careful financing and careful managing of the economy to make money available above all to education.

The Minister said there was a review going on and he said there would be additional money in the reasonably near future. I should like if he would now tell the House what he means by "the reasonably near future"?

Mr. R. Burke

It means what it says, in the reasonably near future— not in the distant future but in the reasonably near future.

Let us put it this way: would we say June?

Mr. R. Burke

I shall not elaborate any further. I have said what I have said—in the reasonably near future.

The reasonably near future to the Administration might not be a reasonably near future to me. I would like the Minister to expand a little on "reasonably near future".

Mr. R. Burke

I decline to accept the Deputy's offer. I do not like interrupting. It will be in the reasonably near future.

The Minister's consideration is touching but could I get some idea from him of when the near future will be?

Mr. R. Burke

Reasonably is reasonably. It will not be too long.

In academic terms, the summer vacation is a bit prolonged so I am taking it that the Minister means before the end of this academic term. The Minister is on record as favouring innovation in secondary schools, as favouring the development of new ideas, new curricula and so on. If he lets the Department of the Public Service away with imposing a ban on new posts in schools how can the schools innovate? With what will they innovate? What about the new places? If the Department of the Public Service do not allow the schools to employ extra teachers, say, to cope with 150 new pupils, what about the capitation grants for those 150 new pupils? How is the school going to cope with this serious position? It is a serious position facing the schools, to quote the Minister "in the reasonably near future". Make no mistake about it. Let the House be fully aware that this campaign for the increase in capitation grant and the increase in the grant in lieu of fees will go on until the schools are not getting any advance but are in a position, when you lay off inflation, that they were in in 1967.

Nuair a bhí Aire na Gaeltachta ag caint dúirt sé go raibh an tAire Oideachais toilteanach chuile chabhair a thabhairt dó ins na Gaeltachtaí. Is féidir leis a chur ina luí ar an Aire Oideachais agus ar an Aire Airgeadais an t-airgead seo a thabhairt do Mheánscoil Mhuire i nGaoth Dobhair, don scoil sa Chlochán Liath agus do na scoileanna eile atá ins na Gaeltachtaí.

Beidh job maith déanta aige ma tá sé ábalta a áiteamh orthu an t-airgead a chur ar fáil.

I am very disappointed that the front runners of liberalism are not here to back up the Minister, those front runners of liberalism who were straining at the leash when Fianna Fáil were in office. Indeed, the Minister for Posts and Telegraphs said that abroad people looked at an Irishman in terms of education and said he could not possibly be an educated man. Why is he not here not trying to get moneys to improve the situation in Irish education?

There are various problems but the money problem is an gard is goire don scornai and it is the one that should be loosed by the Minister and he should insist that it be so loosed. Let him get his men from Marlborough Street behind him. Let him go to the Minister for Finance and demand the money. We are not demanding a great deal. In fact, my figures were £87 and £97, with a difference between junior and senior—that is taking the grant in lieu of fees and the capitation grant together. That is precisely the amount of tax that the Minister for Finance takes from a working man who drinks two pints of Guinness per day for one year. We are not asking a great deal. The Minister has a good case to make. He has not a lot of money to get. I am asking him in God's name, to go and get it.

Question put and agreed to.
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