Skip to main content
Normal View

Dáil Éireann debate -
Tuesday, 13 May 1975

Vol. 280 No. 10

Private Members' Business: CIE fares and ESB charges: Motion.

I move:

That Dáil Éireann condemns the further huge increases in CIE fares and ESB charges sanctioned by the Government, and calls on the Government to take immediate steps to counteract the hardship and damage to the economy caused thereby.

This motion has been put down to highlight the effects the increases will have on the economy. These massive increases authorised by the Minister for Industry and Commerce for CIE fares and freight rates and for ESB charges can only be described as the harvest reaped by a Government that is bankrupt of policies and leadership. Despite all the warnings in the past two years from this side of the House and from practically every responsible, experienced observer outside, the Government have done nothing about the fundamental problems that exist. Even now when the consequences of this bankruptcy move from central Government to semi-State bodies, this so-called open Government make use of procedural devices to prevent criticisms in this House of the Ministers who have been responsible for our economic mismanagement. They should be required to render an account of their stewardship. The buck must stop somewhere and it is right that it should stop here.

No longer can we accept the paltry excuses that we have been getting, such as outside influences, ongoing studies and the teasing out of problems which we heard from the Government during the debate on energy and on the economy. These latest price increases can only be described as a rape of the living standards of the people about whom the Government professed to be so concerned. The Government have raped the Exchequer, the farming community, the small businessman and the motorists. They have permitted the multi-national companies to obtain enormous profits, as we revealed in this House. Last December when a 15p increase per gallon was put on petrol the Government assured us the users of public transport would not be affected. The people concerned now realise the truth of the Government's statement. In addition to the 15p increase the companies were allowed other increases as they wished to apply them. They were able to do this because their products were removed from the structure of the National Prices Commission on 12th December, 1973, and we were put into what is known as the Outer UK Zone, to which seven days' notice applies. There were further increases which affected CIE, the ESB and other aspects of our economy.

In the last two years the Government have succeeded in fostering and feeding what can only be described as an economic monster, the greatest this country has ever known. In two short years they have not set out any economic policy; they have made some disjointed efforts which are destroying our economy. The Government are diverting the energies of productive management by their constant sallies into irrelevant taxation areas. They can only be described as Nero fiddling while we are being consumed by inflation. The Government cannot continue to plead ignorance, as they have been doing for the past two years. Their lack of an energy policy has resulted in a final insult to the many thousands of electricity consumers who were exhorted in the last two years to save energy. The Government forgot to tell these people that because they conserved energy they would be fleeced. One of the reasons put forward for the ESB increases was the drop in consumption.

The increase of £200 million in our oil bill need not have been so great if the Government had taken action. This bill is rather like a stone dropped in the middle of a lake; the first ripples are not of great consequence but as they extend they multiply in size and effect. Our oil bill has affected every sector, as we forecast. It has triggered off cost increases and they, in turn, have created pressures for wage increases that were not foreseen.

This is the result of the lack of any real action being taken with regard to the £200 million oil bill about which we hear so much. The Government have done absolutely nothing to balance the economic effect of these increases. They have done nothing to cut State expenditure so that we might be able to come to grips with the problems facing us. Those are the effects as seen by most people here today. The Government have increased the burden on productive industry with every taxation increase and the increases in insurance stamp contributions thereby starving small businesses of vital capital with which to finance increasing stocks and meet labour costs.

This is the reason also we are now approaching something in the region of 105,000 persons unemployed at present. We maintatin it is deceitful of the Government to say that our priority must now be employment, even bearing in mind the present 28 per cent inflation rate. Had the Government come to grips with the situation much earlier they would not now be trying to cope with the irreconcilable problems they have created. Such a substantial employer as CIE where 75 per cent of its revenue is absorbed by the wage bill must be one of the greatest sufferers in the circumstances. Eventually the Government must take a stand somewhere and nowhere better than at present with regard to CIE and the ESB, two of our major semi-State bodies. If the budget policy for 1974 had proved correct, the solvency of those semi-State bodies could have been maintained without resort to these new massive increases as can be seen from the report of the National Prices Commission. Not once since October, 1973 have we seen any evidence whatsoever that the Government even appreciate the reality of that lack of policy. October 1973 saw the commencement of our energy problems, what has become to be known as the energy crisis but there has been no leadership from the Government in this respect. Surely the nation is entitled to guidance and a responsible approach from any Government elected? This is our people's entitlement no matter what Government may be in power. They are entitled also to something better than the efforts the Government have been making, which seem now farcical to everyone—complete lack of action in regard to the energy crisis which has been debated over the past two years and particularly during the last 18 months.

We are now entitled at least to ask some questions. Why, for instance, are there increases granted now? Why are they so massive? If we fail to receive a suitable or acceptable explanation, surely we and the people are entitled to conclude that the economic and financial affairs of the country are beyond the control of responsible Government Ministers and beyond the understanding of the Government of the day. Each week we witness some further proof of increases following increases.

A few months ago this House approved a £14 million subsidy for CIE when there was a long debate on the matter. We thought then, and were entitled to conclude, that the principle at least involved in such a massive subsidy would prove to be of some assurance that the Government had a realisation of the seriousness of the problem or had come to grips with the economic and social necessity of ensuring that CIE be permitted to continue its operations through the difficult period then being experienced and which has continued. Are the increases now being levied on the already over-burdened fare-paying public—and the increased freight rates—proof that the Exchequer is bankrupt? That is the only conclusion to which we can come.

When the Minister for Finance introduced the famous 15p taxation on the gallon of petrol last December one of his statements then was to the effect that public transport would not be affected thereby. That has not proved to be a very correct forecast, no more than have some of his other excuses given at that time. We remember only too well all the other reasons he advanced at that time which were without foundation. Now there is the final insult that every fare-paying passenger using public transport, every manufacturer and supplier using CIE for the carriage of their goods are being asked to carry this additional burden. We wonder if the Government realise the effect these increases will have on the economy or is their need for money so great at present that the Exchequer can no longer meet its budget subsidies, placing CIE in the position where such increases are absolutely necessary, because that is what they are doing? The urgency of these increases sanctioned by the Minister for Industry and Commerce appears to be for the purpose of increasing CIE's cash flow. I wonder if the Government realise that the minimum fare they are permitting to be applied in Dublin city is the exact equivalent of 1s. 7d. in old money? The Government must be completely insensitive if they think that will appear to the public as just another rise among the many we endure week after week. This latest one will have a most serious effect on the less well off people who use the Dublin public transport system and, indeed, people who use the system all over the country, people who have to use the public transport system to commute to their place of work whether it be in Dublin, Clare, Limerick or anywhere else. These are the people who will be hit by these increases. Fare-paying passengers are less well off but they will have to suffer. They cannot afford cars, not to talk of affording petrol at the price it is. They have no alternative but to use public transport.

Fares have increased 25 per cent and that increase will have very serious economic repercussions. Freight charges will inevitably result in price increases and those price increases will have to be met by the fare-paying passegers of CIE.

It cannot be argued that these increases are necessary in order to reduce the utilisation of CIE. That argument was advanced in regard to the petrol increases and electricity increases in the past. That argument can no longer be advanced to justify the present massive increases. Neither can we be told that there is need to dress up our statistics for the benefit of those lending us money from abroad. That argument no longer holds good. We have reached the stage at which the economic mess is so great the Government are forced to increase indirect State revenue hour by hour. That is what is being done in the case of the ESB and CIE charges and in the case of other State and semi-State bodies.

In December, 1973, we warned the Government of the consequences of the oil crisis. We are now paying the price of the Government's inactivity in the interim. It is regrettable that that should be the situation our citizens are facing. In October, 1973, and on various occasions since, we highlighted what the consequences would be if adequate steps were not taken. We spelled out the effects on our economy, on the people themselves and on the State and semi-State bodies.

The Minister for Industry and Commerce assured us more than 18 months ago, that all the problems relating to the energy and oil crisis were the subject of ongoing study and the Government would ensure everything would be done to relieve the burdens that might be caused because of the oil and energy position. No results have been forthcoming. There have been no reports. No solutions have been advanced. No solutions seem to be even contemplated. Nothing has happened. We are still waiting for the results of the ongoing study and for the solutions.

As we have said on numerous occasions, the first essential is to become self-sufficient in refining capacity. By being self-sufficient we will have control over stocks and profits. We said three years ago it would take three years to become self-sufficient in refining capacity, whether that selfsufficiency is brought about by an extension of Whitegate or by building a new refinery. There is no evidence of anything like that. We have not as yet any natural oil resources. We all hope we will reap some benefit from any oil that may result from exploration off the south coast but, even if oil is found there, we simply do not have the capacity to refine it and the possibility is that we will find ourselves exporting crude oil to foreign refineries and shipping the finished product back again.

We are in exactly the same position now as we were in October, 1973. We are three years away from exercising any control over our stocks and over the profit margins the multi-national companies have been mulcting us with for the last year and a half. The ESB are paying something in the region of £40 a ton for oil—hence the fuel surcharge on every ESB bill. Nothing has been done to relieve the people of this surcharge. While the ESB are paying £40 a ton for oil Whitegate is exporting oil at £8 a ton. Surely this is an indefensible position. Some action could have been taken.

The Dublin Gas Company had a contract for naphtha. That contract started in 1967-68. It appeared to be a very good contract from the point of view of the multi-national oil companies. When the oil crisis occurred it became a good contract for the Dublin Gas Company and a bad one for the multi-nationals. The latter were not long in putting in the boot to ensure they would get an increased price for the naphtha. Surely we could have done something about the situation in which we were exporting oil at £8 a ton and the ESB were importing oil at £40 a ton. Had some action been taken there would have been some relief of the burden of charges with which electricity consumers are now faced. Nothing has happened. We believe the ESB, Aer Lingus and other big oil users should get encouragement from the Government to do something about it themselves. It is possible for the Government and also for the ESB to go out and buy crude oil on the open market far cheaper than the price they are being charged now. It is also possible for the ESB to hire a tanker. Tankers are so plentiful nowa-days that the owners of tanker fleets would nearly pay you to charter one of them. They are left idle all over the Mediterranean, Britain and the Continent.

Oil is not scarce so the ESB could buy oil far cheaper than the price they are paying to the multi-national oil companies. They could transport the crude oil to the Continent and make contract arrangements to have it refined to their own needs. This would cost far less than the £40 per ton which they are paying now for this oil, which is supposed to be Russian oil. It is not Russian oil most of the time. The Russians are good brokers and they buy the oil in the Gulf and sell it to the ESB.

The Government should go out and do something about getting supplies of oil instead of talking about the £200 million oil bill. The crude oil could be refined on the Continent at a reasonable price. There are many refineries there which are not working to full capacity. The oil refinery is the real solution to the oil problem. We could then become self-sufficient in relation to oil refining even if we are still forced to go out and but oil in the Gulf. We could control the stocks and the profits. We should be well ahead with the construction of a refinery in view of the chance of finding oil off the south coast. We are in the same position as we were in October, 1973, and it looks as if we will go on in that position. We will continue to be at the mercy of the multi-national oil concerns because the Government are not facing up to the oil problem.

We have heard nothing whatsoever about an energy policy for the ESB. We have only seen references to the burning of pound notes on television and people being asked to use less and less current. People did this and now the prices report has given this as one of the reasons for the massive increase in charges. The people will be paying more for using less and there will be more people unemployed.

The Government should face up to the realities facing the country. They should do something realistic about them. They should cut down the £200 million fuel bill instead of acceding to price increases as they did in the past week in relation to two of our large State bodies. People had enough worries about ESB bills up to now but they will be far greater in the future. The people are also faced with the prospect of increased unemployment and a decreasing amount of money going into households. The Government are doing nothing to relieve the situation. We have made suggestions about how the Government can eliminate the high costs in relation to the ESB and oil prices. It is time the Government did something. We find it difficult to believe that we have Ministers from the Labour Party who are permitting a minimum charge of 1s 7d in old money on buses in this city. There should be a full inquiry into the cause of these massive increases instead of just a report from the prices commission. The increases should be suspended until such an inquiry is completed. The Government may well know the causes of these increases but the ordinary people have no idea of them but they certainly know what the effects will be.

I move the following amendment:

To delete all words after "Dáil Éireann" and substitute the following:

"recognises the role of the National Prices Commission; and recognises that if the Government were to refuse to sanction increases in CIE fares and ESB charges the result would be either subsidisation by the taxpayer or lowering of services and unemployment in these bodies."

This is the nub of the matter. The Opposition party come in here and waffle away—they have done this consistently for two years—about what is wrong but when they are asked to produce something which will deal with the situation they have nothing to offer. Deputy Barrett's contribution this evening is the same speech that he has made for the past two years about the energy situation. I do not propose to follow that now. I hope to be in the House next week on the International Energy Agency and I will point out that Deputy Barrett, Deputy O'Kennedy and Deputy O'Malley came into the House without even reading about the International Energy Agency, about which they purported to know so much and which they tried to advise the Dáil and the country not to sign. Their three contributions were a mass of half truths, misinformation and ignorance. Next week I will point out exactly what they were.

Did France have the same reason for not signing it?

I did not interrupt Deputy Barrett. If the Deputy has something to contribute he will get his chance later on. In the meantime let the Deputy stay quiet. The increased costs which have been referred to are increased costs in the running of CIE and the ESB and there are three ways in which they could be met. They could be met by a Government subsidy, which, of course, would mean taxation, which the Opposition would say should not be imposed and which they would oppose vehemently; by increased charges, which they are now opposing or— this is the solution they would like— by declaring workers in CIE and the ESB redundant. They would like to see these people put out on the road. They pay the same prices as people who are not employed by CIE or the ESB.

What about a refinery? Let the Minister talk about a refinery.

Order. Deputy Wilson will have to restrain himself.

Are the Opposition suggesting that the workers in CIE and the ESB should not get the wage increases which were freely negotiated between the trade unions and the employers' bodies last year and this year? Deputy Barrett seemed to suggest that we were now substituting the fares increases for the £17 million which was budgeted for earlier this year. That sum still stands and that is the Government's contribution to the running of CIE. Alongside that must go the fare structure. The labour cost element in CIE is 66 per cent not 75 per cent as Deputy Barrett said of the total operating expenditure. There are only three ways in which this figure can be reduced: (a) by sacking the men, which is evidently what the Fianna Fáil Party want; (b) Government subsidy; or (c) increased charges.

(Interruptions.)

A Cheann Comhairle, may I be allowed to make my contribution without interruption? I did not interrupt the previous speaker. The Government decided that CIE should endeavour, as far as possible, with increased charges, to work within the limit of £17 million which they allowed in the budget for CIE. The increases which have been sanctioned by the Government were recommended by the National Prices Commission which is is a body composed of trade unionists, consumers and industrialists set up to adjudicate on and examine applications for price increases. They recommended that CIE should be given those increases and the Government sanctioned them. Of the £13 million increased costs, £11 million is in respect of wage increases. It will be paid out in wages to the workers whom, I suspect, Fianna Fáil would like to sack. I think that is the object behind their motion—to sack a proportion of the 20,000 workers in CIE and the 10,000 or 11,000 in the ESB. This is what they really want.

(Interruptions.)

They want to cut down employment in CIE and the ESB. Increased subsidisation would mean increased taxation which they would also oppose. The workers in CIE and the ESB are not immune from price increases in other sections of the community. The Opposition have an instant solution for every problem without giving it more than superficial thought. The cream on the top of the pint is all they ever think about. The body is below it. They should look at this deeper and see what is the real situation and not come in here having looked at the problem only in a haphazard, shallow way. They should come in here and tell us what they want. Do they think that CIE and ESB workers should not get wage increases? Is that what they are suggesting? It seems to me it is. That everybody else—Dáil Deputies, Ministers, public servants, workers in ordinary industry, should be allowed wage increases but not CIE workers. That is what they are suggesting— unless they want subsidies and subsidies mean taxation and that they do not want either. The only other alternative is price increases. The Government decided that the subsidy of £17 million given to CIE should, as far as possible, be adhered to in this financial year and that the fare increases were justified.

I would like to say a few words about CIE and about the difficulty of running a huge complex such as this. It is the biggest employer in the country. There are 20,000 people working in CIE. It has many different facets —the buses, the trains, the provincial buses, the canals, shipping, freight and so on. It needs careful watching by the board of CIE and by the Government at all times because there is an element of subsidisation every year and the Government must be satisfied that this money is being used to the best account in the public interest. I am, in my meetings with the board of CIE, constantly impressing on them the need for efficiency in their operations, the need for getting the best value because of their public commitment. This will involve a large capital investment on the part of CIE in the modernisation of the railways because the highest proportion of loss is in the running of the railways. It runs to about 80 per cent of the loss incurred by CIE annually. This goes back over many years. The chairman of CIE said last week-end that they are, on a phase basis, going to reduce the staff over a number of years but not drastically, not putting 2,000 or 4,000 men out of work. If 4,000 men from CIE were let off in the morning there would be no necessity for the fare increases but that would mean that there would be a cut back of 20 per cent in the services. The 20 per cent that would be cut back would not be the remunerative ones but the unremunerative ones going into rural areas, the ones that are most lightly used. Those are the ones that I want to see kept because many people are living far from population centres and they need public transport and they need a means of communication for which urban dwellers have not the same need. I want to see those kept. If we were to adopt what seems to me to be the policy of the Opposition and make 4,000 or 6,000 people redundant in CIE——

I suppose we are responsible for the 103,000 who are already unemployed?

On a point of order, I do not want to interrupt the Minister and what I have to say I will say in as orderly a way as I can but for about the fourth or fifth time he has attributed to this party originally getting rid of 2,000 and is now up to 5,000 or 6,000. It was never said by Deputy Barrett or by anybody else——

This is hardly a point of order and it is hardly fair to raise points of order on a debate with a rigid time limit. The Minister, without interruption.

There are three ways of meeting the shortfall in CIE's revenue. Increased charges, which are now being opposed by the Opposition, subsidisation, which the Opposition would also oppose or making workers in CIE redundant.

You have good experience of the latter.

To meet the increased charges it would be necessary to make 4,000 people redundant. I do not like to have to ask the Government to sanction fare increases because I recognise the social role of public transport and I recognise the necessity to keep CIE operating as efficiently as possible but I must be realistic. I must present the same choices to the Government as I have presented to this House. It is unacceptable to the Government that people should be made redundant in CIE at this stage to avoid the increased charges.

It may be of interest to the House to hear that only 13 per cent of the total railway passenger journeys on CIE represent full adult fares and that 65 per cent of the Dublin suburban rail services are concession fares. There are the 10-journey and weekly tickets on Dublin buses and the commuter tickets on the provincial services. All those concession fares make up the balance. Even though the 25 per cent and the 33 per cent increase on the basic ticket rate is what is advertised and published on the rail side only 13 per cent of the people are paying those. In addition, there is the free transport. A considerable proportion of the people who use CIE enjoy free transport. There are the school-children, everybody over 67, blind people over 21, veterans of the War of Independence and their wives and widows. In fact, 28 per cent of the total journeys on provincial long distance bus services represent free transport.

With regard to the 25 per cent increase on rail freight, 80 per cent of freight is carried at concession rates. The rates are negotiated between companies and CIE. When the terms are being negotiated, the negotiations will be at a higher level but at present only 20 per cent of the freight carried by CIE is carried at the full rate. Within the EEC the road freight service of CIE will have to operate commercially. In future we cannot subsidise that side of CIE operations. Before the coming into force of the relevant EEC regulations I said that I wanted this side of the business to operate commercially. While we can justify the subsidisation of bus and train services we cannot justify the continued subsidisation of road freight carriage. CIE are making an investment over a number of years of £20 million for the modernisation of their freight handling department so that, hopefully, in future that section of the company's operations will become profitable and may even make a contribution to the general profitability of the whole company.

It is interesting to note that in an article on British Rail in yesterday's Financial Times it was stated that five years ago that company's loss was £50 million but that in the current year the British Government will have to subsidise them to the extent of £438 million. During the past five years the subsidy to CIE in respect of railways has been of the order of a multiple of 4½ whereas the subsidy to British Rail by the British Government has multiplied nine-fold in the same period. Allowing that CIE operate in very much more difficult circumstances than is the case of British Rail in England, because of the very much smaller population here, CIE are not as inefficient as some commentators would have us believe but I am not satisfied that they are totally efficient. Also, with regard to British Rail, that company have had two increases already in 1975 with the threat of another later whereas the increase being applied now by CIE is the first general increase for them here and I am hoping it will be the only one although I cannot make any promise in that regard because the 16th wage round has not been taken into account in the increase applied for by the company. Obviously, for the same reason that I outlined earlier, this wage round will have an effect on costs in the future. The workers in CIE are as entitled as others to their wage increases.

Regarding the ESB, it has been said that there is to be an 18.3 per cent increase in charges. I would point out that that increase is on the basic tariff. The increase on the total ESB bill is 14 per cent.

There has been criticism in the report of the National Prices Commission and among various commentators outside this House of overstaffing in the ESB. Four or five years ago the Fletcher Committee were set up to investigate the ESB and they concluded that there was overstaffing but they recognised this situation as being due to historical reasons—the economy of the country, and so on. The overstaffing was reckoned at the time to be in the region of 10 to 20 per cent. Since then the ESB have been working on this "fat" in their system and have reduced their staff by more than 5 per cent despite the fact that their number of customers has increased by 100,000 and that their output has increased by 40 per cent. It would not be desirable that the company should render 1,000 people redundant. The cost that would be involved in redundancy payments from the point of view of the Exchequer would be much greater than the carrying of the increased cost of staffing. In their April report, the National Prices Commission stated that there was overstaffing in the ESB to the extent of 20 per cent. The company do not accept this and have expressed a wish to discuss the matter with the consultants concerned. I shall be looking forward to a report on those discussions and, after examination of it, I shall decide what action to take regarding the ESB and their overstaffing problem.

During the past five years, also, there have been no temporary or casual staff employed by the ESB. Overtime during that period has dropped from 12 per cent to 7.4 per cent of the payroll. The company have been affected by the energy crisis. The point has been made in the NPC Report and by other commentators that the increase in charges is necessary because of the conservation of energy policy of my Department. When applying for the increase the ESB said that there was a drop in demand but there was another element in that situation. I refer to the economic climate of the past 18 months. Growth in the ESB during the past five years has been mainly in the industrial sector but when that growth levelled off, the ESB found themselves in a zero growth rate situation although prior to then they had capital commitments to cater for the growth rate. In discussions with them today they told me that the element of the 14 per cent increase that is attributable to the conservation policy of my Department is less than I per cent. In other words, if there was no conservation policy, the price increase being imposed would be 13 per cent.

Rather than laying off people the ESB have been following a positive policy. For instance, they are on the point of coming to an arrangement with the Saudi-Arabian Government for the production of electricity in that country. They are pursuing a similar policy with the Iranian and Iraqi Governments. Using their present design and construction staff they will go to those countries to help the respective governments set up generating and distributing systems, work that they have carried out very successfully at home. Therefore, rather than cursing the darkness they are lighting candles and going out to seek new business.

When I was speaking here before Christmas regarding a subsidy for the CIE rail service I said that I favoured an examination by a committee of this House to look into the affairs both of CIE and the ESB. I repeated that at my party's Ard-Fheis and I am glad to say that the Government have taken a decision to set up a joint Oireachtas committee to look into the whole question of State bodies operating in a commercial manner. Details regarding the committee will be announced by the Minister for Finance within the next ten days or so. I am glad that this committee is being set up, first, because public bodies should be accountable to this House and, secondly, because it will give Members of both Houses the opportunity to educate themselves regarding the operations of these organisations. It is my wish that semi-State bodies would operate in as open a manner as possible and that as many people as possible would be familiar with their operations, their problems, their difficulties and their running.

In the past week I had discussions with the chairman of CIE about the possibility of conducting meetings of the board in public and allowing the Press in to hear the discussions of the board members and, in particular, allowing in members of the staff of CIE so that they could appreciate the problems of the board and have an overall look at the general operations of CIE. The more open all our State companies are, the more understanding of them will be the public, and the fewer frivolous motions from the Opposition will come before the House.

Deputy O'Connell.

The last speaker was from that side of the House. Deputy O'Connell still supports the Government so far as I know.

He does not have to obey the Whip if he was not consulted beforehand.

Deputy O'Connell has an amendment down to this motion. We have heard the motion moved. We heard an amendment moved in the name of the Minister. The Chair must now hear the amendment to the amendment in the name of Deputy O'Connell.

For how long?

Half a hour. This is in accordance with precedent.

So the Government are taking over Private Members' Time by putting down amendments to amendments. I protest at this. The Chair is calling two people in succession from the same side of the House.

I assure the Deputy that this is normal procedure. It is in accordance with the procedure of the House.

Does it make any difference that the substance of the amendment put down by Deputy O'Connell has been accepted by the Minister?

I must call the Deputy if he offers.

Does this mean that on any Private Members' motion in future the Government will put down an amendment and then get one of their pals, if he is one at the moment, to put down an amendment to the amendment and they will take over the whole Private Members' Time?

That is not a matter for the Chair. Members of this House have privileges and the Chair may not interfere with them.

This is nonsense. It is an abuse by the Government.

I should like to make it clear that it is not my intention to take up Private Members' Time to support the Government or to try to monopolise the time. This decision was taken by me without consulting the Government. Furthermore, it seems to me that if a few more amendments were put down the Government might make statements about what they were going to do. I am adopting a very independent line in moving this amendment. In future, a few more amendments may be put down and we may have Government policy spelled out. I felt obliged to do this. I can understand Deputy O'Malley's annoyance if he feels that a trick is being played. I would feel equally annoyed but the Deputy has my word of honour that no such thing was implied or intended.

I suggest to Deputy O'Connell that, since he appreciates my annoyance, he will also appreciate that his amendment has been accepted by the Government and, therefore, there is no point in speaking about it. If he would subside I could get in.

I feel obliged to speak because I feel very strongly about this question of State monopolies.

I take it the Deputy is now moving his amendment.

I move an amendment to the amendment:

To add the words

"and, further, recommends that consideration should now be given to the question of setting up a parliamentary committee to monitor the affairs of CIE and the ESB to ensure full public accountability".

It is really an addendum. I call upon the Government to set up a parliamentary committee to monitor the affairs of these bodies and all semi-State bodies. When I was in Opposition I asked a number of questions on this matter but, unfortunately, many of them fell on deaf ears. The recent increases emphasise more than ever the need for closer scrutiny of these bodies. We have State monopolies with no competition. They have no obligation to operate efficiently. I read in the annual report of CIE that they are the largest single commercial enterprise in the country and are totally dependent on the community for survival and prosperity. They should have added that they are operating without any public accountability. With a gross expenditure of £65 million, it is time they were accountable to the public. As every Deputy knows, you cannot ask a question in this House about the policy of these bodies.

Recently CIE made a decision about something affecting the community and they felt they were not obliged to discuss it. I went to the Minister for Transport and Power and he said he had no responsibility in the matter, that it was a matter for CIE. It was a policy which was contrary to the wishes of the people. It was a question of roads owned by CIE which they were handing over to the public. They were selling their houses and they would not accept responsibility for them. The local authorities said they must be put in order before they would take them over. CIE said "No" and the Minister for Transport and Power said: "I cannot interfere in this matter. This is a semi-State body." To me this answer was not good enough. These bodies should be accountable to the public.

I was interested in what the Minister said about free transport. I do not think CIE provide that. The Government provide it and pay CIE. CIE collect for it. The Minister made a point about freight charges—20 per cent only at full rate. Who is subsidising whom? Some of our biggest industries are being subsidised. The policy in regard to subsidisation and fare increases is interesting. There is no consistent policy. In July last the National Prices Commission recommended increases but they were turned down by the Government. Then in December the Government approved those increases. With a policy like that—and I am critical of the Government in saying this—the management of a semi-State body would not know where they were. It is provided that these semi-State bodies must break even but, if they do not break even, they are not accountable to the Dáil. Not even once a year can the affairs of these semi-State bodies come before the Dáil. This is a very serious matter.

If we accept that CIE are providing a social service—and I agree they are —we may have to consider full subsidisation and, perhaps, at no great extra cost we could provide it as a free service. We might offer this as a concession to workers in national wage agreements. With the way CIE are being subsidised at the moment a little more money might make the service available as a free service. The Minister talked about the labour force. We must talk about a future on-going policy for CIE and we must talk about redeployment. I do not think we should have one policy for today and a different one for tomorrow. We must look ahead and have a proper national policy and decide what type of labour force is needed and what kind of rationalisation is needed. Having regard to inflationary trends, we have to decide what increases will be due in a year's time.

Quite suddenly we are hit with these increases and we do not know when the next is due. This is not good enough. If we had projections for the coming year having regard to inflationary trends, we might know what increases will be due. We should talk about future expansion and what the cost will be. We could talk about employing everybody in CIE and the ESB. We could solve the problem of 103,000 people unemployed by pushing them into CIE and ESB but that is not the answer to an unemployment problem. We could not just pour them in. We would have to rationalise these companies. We would have to get people employed elsewhere and get one company operating normally and move them into another industry. We should aim at rationalisation and planing for the future. We might get people employed in other industries.

The ESB are also a State monopoly with no competition. We talk about the fuel clause variation and this is understandable but what is not understandable is the decision by the Minister for Finance to apply VAT to the fuel clause variation. This, to me, was trickery. I went to the ESB about it and they said: "We have no authority in this. It is by the direction of the Minister for Finance." It was understood by all that the fuel variation clause was applied because of the enormous increases in the cost of fuel but I do not think any Minister for Finance has a right to take advantage of that and apply VAT to it. The Minister should seriously consider telling his colleague that this is not good enough.

There is no opportunity of raising these matters in the House except when the Estimate is introduced. There is no public accountability. The public are the shareholders and they have a right to attend the annual general meetings and ask questions. I do not see why these State bodies do not hold an annual general meeting at which representatives of the public can attend. I was pleased to hear the Minister announce that a parliamentary committee will be set up. It is important that an examination of the books of these bodies takes place. In December, 1973 the Taoiseach announced that the Government would be disposed to favour the establishment of a committee to examine and report on the activities of State sponsored bodies. I would like to see this parliamentary committee having the right to examine books and call in experts to examine them and question the management of these bodies. I hope we will see this in operation shortly.

The increases by CIE and the ESB were shocking and breath-taking. However, it appears that these are by no means the end of the price increases in each of these bodies for this year. The February report of the National Prices Commission makes clear, as the Minister did, that the cost of the 16th round of the national pay agreement is not included in the enormous increase just sanctioned. That was the biggest wage increase ever given in the history of the State. The basic rate is not all that enormous but the actual rate of increase that will have to be paid is enormous because for the past 12 months inflation has been so high.

I am not in a position to work out what the further increases will be but clearly they will be substantial because we are told that 66 per cent of CIE's costs come from wages. That company will now have to meet a huge further wage increase that was not taken into account in the increase in charges. The increases in wages are effective from this quarter. Even after increasing fares by 33? per cent CIE have to provide for the payment of the 16th round. When are we going to see the end of this? In the last ten months, from July, 1974, to May, 1975, just before the last increase was given, up to today the following are the increases in CIE rates and fares, as set out in the February Report of the National Prices Commission:

Rail passenger, main line—50 per cent. Dublin City buses and suburban rail—60 per cent. Provincial city buses—60 per cent. Provincial long-distance buses—50 per cent. Rail and road freight (major traffics)—44 to 47 per cent.

It looks possible that by the end of 1975 CIE's fares will be 100 per cent higher than they were in July, 1974.

The ESB made a clearer and more intelligible application for their increase. They included the 16th round but they also say, according to the National Prices Commission report, that they will be making a further price application from 1st September, 1975, on top of the 18.3 per cent they received recently. This is conditional on the ESB achieving a zero growth rate. I did not think we would ever come to see that day with the ESB. They hope they will be good enough not to increase their sales of electricity. The March report of the National Prices Commission states that the ESB believe that this estimate—in other words a hope that they will achieve a zero growth rate—could well be unduly optimistic, and that it will only be attained if there is a postive sales recovery in the year of the order of 7 per cent above the present trend. That presumably refers to the trend for the first quarter but I do not know what happened in the weeks since then.

I was glad to hear Deputy O'Connell refer to the unaccountability of such bodies and the belief of the Minister almost in the perfection of CIE and other semi-State bodies who tend to make their own rules and let the consumer or taxpayer pay for it. The National Prices Commission point out that of the amount claimed which they wipe their hands of—they said there was nothing they could do about it if the Government were going to insist on it—they did not want to grant £4,150,000 which was not allowable under the normal criteria laid down by the Government to the Prices Commission for consideration in relation to firms generally. If CIE were not a semi-State body or a monopoly answerable to nobody, they would have had to deduct that £4 million from what was allowed to them eventually by the Minister. A private company would have had to do that but CIE have got away with it.

Is it any wonder that things are lax in CIE when the normal rules do not apply? They are not accountable to anyone and the normal criteria for price control do not apply to them. The figures are set out in detail in page 192 of the report. CIE claimed and got from the Government £14,517,000; the amount allowable in the opinion of the National Prices Commission was £10,393,000 but the entire amount was allowed.

The National Prices Commission have said they have no role in the consideration of the increases. That is why it is downright misleading of the Minister to tell the House the Government have sanctioned only what the National Prices Commission recommended. The commission did not recommend those increases and the reports dealing with CIE and the ESB set out many arguments why their hands are tied completely.

In the case of the ESB, the hands of the National Prices Commission are tied by the terms of the Electricity Supply Act, 1927. The CIE spokesman is quoted in the report as saying, "The Government have re-affirmed ..."; in other words, the National Prices Commission cannot allow the normal criteria to apply because the terms of the Electricity Supply Act, 1927, take precedence and, no matter how inefficient or otherwise, the ESB are expected to be allowed to balance their books each year. Therefore, so far as the National Prices Commission are concerned they cannot stop them.

It amounts to almost the same thing with CIE. There is not the precise statutory direction as in the Electricity Supply Act, 1927, but the history of the dealings of this Government with increases recommended in relation to CIE have been so confusing from the point of view of the National Prices Commission that the latter have washed their hands of the business and they have let it go. They are not making any recommendation one way or the other. It is not correct to say that either of these increases were recommended by the commission. They have pointed out their hands are tied and that they have no function in the matter. The question of considering prices for semi-State boards with virtual monopolies does not arise so far as the National Prices Commission are concerned because different criteria are applied.

Perhaps I could give an example of the differing attitude to the question of subsidies and increases in fares. In July, 1973, the Government considered the report from the National Prices Commission in relation to CIE fares. The recommendation of the commission was for certain increases, significantly below those sought by CIE. The Government examined the report; they said they would not pay any extra subsidy and then proceeded to give increases to CIE higher than those recommended by the commission. In July, 1974, the commission made certain recommendations in relation to a further application for an increase; the Government announced they were accepting the recommendations because they thought they were correct but instead of an increase of 30 per cent or more for the Dublin city bus services and suburban rail services they said they were reducing the increase to 20 per cent, with CIE responsible for the rest.

With regard to the ESB, on 1st August, 1974, the National Prices Commission recommended an increase in their charges of 7½ per cent but, as was pointed out on page 179 of the report, the Government allowed an increase of 16 per cent. Is it any wonder the National Prices Commission have washed their hands of trying to do anything in relation to CIE or the ESB? I have given three examples of totally contradictory actions by the Government in relation to price increases by these two bodies and the recommendations of the National Prices Commission, and Deputy O'Connell gave the House a further example.

The National Prices Commission have no function in these areas and that is why the House should reject the meaningless amendment to the motion in the name of Deputy Barrett and myself. That amendment states: "that Dáil Éireann recognises the role of the National Prices Commission". It may be that Dáil Éireann recognises that role but certainly the Government do not because on three different occasions in a period of a year they followed three different policies. Is it any wonder that in their two reports the National Prices Commission washed their hands of this matter and said the Government will have to sort it out? They have given the history of what happened to their previous recommendations; some were cut down and in other cases increases well in excess of what they recommended were granted. The one thing the Government have not done—in the words of their own amendment— is to "recognise the role of the National Prices Commission". It is an attempt to pass the buck to the National Prices Commission but it has not worked because the commission have passed the buck to the Government. They have said there is nothing they can do in relation to these two bodies.

These matters are very important because they have a tremendous influence on the whole question of inflation and, therefore, on our industrial future. They also have a tremendous influence on the lives of ordinary, less well off people. As a general rule it is only the poorer people who are obliged to have resort to CIE. They have no choice in the matter. The people who might be able to pay these exorbitant increases rarely, if ever, use CIE. The damage done by these monstrous increases to the budget of less well off people in every part of the country is enormous and as I pointed out, they are only the first instalment for 1975. I have shown where there will be further huge increases before the end of this year.

A point must be made about the timing of these two increases. The CIE increases came into effect last Monday and I think the ESB increases came into effect on 1st May. Do the Government realise that by announcing the increases last Monday rather than next Friday they have increased the wages that will have to be paid as a result of the price index going up by 1 per cent at the end of the quarter, on 15th May? They have increased all wages by 1 per cent by not holding these matters for a few days.

This is not a question of playing around with the price index or anything of that nature. If the Government were any way genuine about an attempt to control inflation, they could have put this off for a few days which would have had the effect of keeping wages down for a certain period at least. The cost to all employers in the State of this increase coming into effect on Monday last, rather than next Friday, will be, in a full year, £90 million in wage increases. The cost in public service pay alone is £1 million in the first three months period or £4 million at least in a year because the cumulative effect of these two price increases is to increase the price index by 1 per cent with the consequental effects that has on wages under the 16th round agreement and further resultant effects on inflation running throughout the economy. In fact, by this increase having come into effect on Monday last, CIE themselves probably stand to have to pay substantially more than they would have had to pay had the announcement not been made until the end of this week.

Debate adjourned.
Top
Share