Dáil Éireann debate -
Thursday, 15 May 1975

Vol. 280 No. 12

Vote 42: Transport and Power (Resumed).

Debate resumed on the following motion:

That a sum not exceeding £34,849,000 be granted to defray the charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of December, 1975, for the salaries and expenses of the Office of the Minister for Transport and Power, including certain services administered by that Office, and for payment of sundry grants-in-aid.

—(Minister for Transport and Power.)

Mr. Power

I was referring before questions to the tourist industry and the tourist potential in certain areas. When we look at tourist development over the last few years we must admit that it is in a sad and stagnant state. Let us compare the state of the tourist industry today and the outlook of the tourist industry with the promise by the present Taoiseach before the last election that the Government would carry out a new, dynamic development programme for tourism to enable the industry to overcome its present difficulties. That promise is now shown to be a very empty one, indeed the implications would be laughable if they were not so lamentable. The difficulties when this Government took office in 1973 were very minute molehills compared with the mountainous difficulties tourism suffers today. Can the Minister show us any evidence of action that he has taken to put this new dynamic development that was promised with regard to tourist development or, indeed, with regard to anything else, into being? The Minister took up his portfolio, as the present Tánaiste said, in place of a tired and incompetent Government. It should have been easy for the Minister to shine in comparison with the tired and incompetent person whom he succeeded. If there was any excuse needed for the last Government to be tired and incompetent it would be the fact that we had been 16 years in office. The present Minister has only been two years in office. There is no excuse for how tired and incompetent he is and actually appears to be. I would ask him to point out what he has done to help the tourist industry. Indeed one of his own back benchers, Deputy White from Donegal, questioned the wisdom of the decision to turn down the request for petrol concessions for tourists. In my county members of his own party and the party that help to keep him in Government were all unanimous when this was brought up at council level and we recommended to the Minister that concessions should be made to people coming into this country for holidays so that it would entice people to come back to Erin. Deputy White wanted to know what the great difficulty would be in supplying tourists with a certain number of coupons. He mentioned, I think, 100 coupons worth 20 pence each to enable them to buy their petrol here at a reduced cost. This would have been merely a matter of throwing out a trout to catch a salmon because it would have enticed people to come here and a lot more revenue would have accrued in this way than would have been the small amount of the tax loss involved.

The greatest blow suffered by the tourist industry was the imposition of an extra 15p per gallon in duty on petrol. This was a dreadful mistake. There was no reason for this other than the Minister believing he should follow slavishly what had been done in Britain. It was a question of greed, of getting the £29 million that the Minister required. Had we been able to advertise our country to potential tourists on the Continent, telling them that they could come here in the knowledge that they could avail of petrol at the lowest price in Europe, there is every reason to believe that many tourists would have been encouraged to spend their holidays here. Perhaps the Minister for Transport and Power does not assert himself sufficiently where the Government are concerned but in any case, he missed a golden opportunity in not insisting on special concessions where petrol for tourists is concerned. Perhaps, other forces in the Cabinet twisted his arm but he allowed the Minister for Finance to have all the say. However, the Minister will be judged on his performance in his own Department and if he is not able to acquire the finance needed, he will be regarded as a failure.

Bord Fáilte are to be complimented on the good work they are doing but it is time that moneys made available to them were channelled into smaller areas within their ambit, such as farmhouse holidays. This type of holiday has appealed to the Minister for Finance. When one so discerning as he avails of farmhouse holidays we can be assured that many others will follow his example. I trust that all of Bord Fáilte's money will not be channelled into big areas of development and into the bigger hotels.

My county for many years was not regarded as an area of tourist potential. For a long time we concerned ourselves with the building of major roads on which traffic could pass as quickly as possible to other centres. However, with the huge and ever-increasing population of Dublin on our doorsteps we can now see our prospects in a different light because many people from the city will be glad to come to Kildare and enjoy the facilities we have.

I compliment Bord Fáilte, CIE and the eastern regional tourism people on the success of their efforts in regard to Robertstown, an area which would have seemed to have very little potential regarding tourism but the advent of the canal fiesta has led to the greater use of boats on the canal and a banquet in the village, which is sponsored by the local guild of Muintir na Tíre, attracts 1,000 people every year. I trust that there will be an increase in the co-operation with this venture because it is in such an area that even a little more can be of tremendous help. It is an area in respect of which a success has been made without waiting for Government hand-outs and that is why it deserves much consideration.

It is unfortunate that a receiver was appointed recently to administer the affairs of Kilkea Castle Hotel, near Castledermot. I have been in touch with the Minister's Department in this regard. At the time of the appointment of the receiver I was aware that negotiations were under way with a world famous group of hoteliers who were interested in purchasing the castle. At the time a health farm was in operation at the castle and this commended itself to many people. It was an added incentive to spending a weekend or longer at the castle. It helped, too, in encouraging conferences to be held at the castle. Indeed, many famous conferences were held there. However, despite my best endeavours and those of the management who are confident that if the financial affairs of the health farm were examined, it would be found that the project was a viable one, it was closed down but the hotel continued in operation. It was a mistake to discontinue the health farm. This involved a loss of employment in an area where employment prospects are not good. To have continued it would have been a help in selling the hotel. It is not a very good advertisement to have to say that one part of the operation has been discontinued. There was not a lot of co-operation from the Minister's Department in this regard.

I compliment Aer Lingus, too, on the good work they are doing and on their achievement in making a profit of more than £1.1 million during the past year and after they had experienced two bad years. This is an indication of the way in which they are applying themselves to the job. They provide an excellent service and have incentives to encourage people to avail of their services. One such incentive is that which enables a wife to travel at half fare when she is with her husband. They can also say that their fares are the lowest in Europe. Their airline is known and respected all over the world. Much credit is due to them for their success in what can be described as a cut-throat competitive area. I hope that every effort will be made to help them in their endeavours and I wish them the best of luck for the future.

There seems to be a tug-of-war at all times between the Departments of Finance and Transport and Power. It might be said that there is lack of liaison between the various Departments. An example of this was the situation that arose at the time of the imposition by the Minister for Finance of the extra 15p on the gallon of petrol. The Minister told us that the increase would apply only to petrol bought after existing stocks in the pumps had been sold. However, although the measure was to come into effect at 12 midnight on a certain day, I was amazed to find that next day the price had been increased. The manager of the garage in Naas where I bought petrol on that day assured me that no delivery had been made from midnight on the previous day but that personnel came from the head office of the oil company to change the price on the pumps. He was told that any complaints were to be referred to the Minister for Industry and Commerce. I have mentioned this here before but I have not received any information as to what was the outcome of any such complaints. That situation was an example of a callous and unconcerned approach on the part of the Department who do not seem to give a damn about the people who are keeping the wheels of industry and transport turning.

If a verdict had to be passed on the Minister and his Ministry since he accepted his portfolio, in many spheres which come easily to mind he would be classed as a failure. In fact, the whole Government would be classed as a failure but, if one were to pick out the greatest failure, one would automatically think of the Department of Transport and Power. Some people always look around for someone else to take the blame. It is not good enough that the Minister should blame the Arabs and the increased price of oil as he has done in his statement. The Irish people will no longer accept that subterfuge. It will not wash any longer. The Minister and his colleagues must accept responsibility for many of the price increases. They must also accept responsibility for the mishandling of the petrol strike during the recent petrol shortage. I see no evidence of a policy on oil pollution of the sea.

All I can see at the moment in any Government Department, and in particular in this Government Department, is a policy of reaction. The Minister and his colleagues react to a certain situation. We never see any initiative shown by them to counteract or prevent something happening. They react when it has happened. It is high time that the Minister was his own man and did what he thought was best. I do not see any evidence of planning for the future in the Minister's statement. He refers to nice cushy generalities but there is nothing definite in it. I would compare it to a window dressing with nothing behind it. I do not wish to be personal but, whether it is because of lack of finance for his Department, whether the Minister for Finance does not allow him the finance he needs, or whether it is because of lack of interest in his Department by the Government, the Minister has to bear the blame. I am confident that the verdict by the people of Ireland in regard to his Ministry and the National Coalition parties in general would be that their term of office has been a dismal failure.

Mr. Finn

It is wonderful to listen to the Opposition criticising the Minister when they know in their hearts that the problems which exist have come about as a result of the oil crisis. We all have sympathy for the Minister. He came into office at a time when the situation was changing not only in this country but throughout the whole of Europe. As a result of the energy crisis the country has been faced with this situation and unemployment has resulted. The Opposition try to blame the Minister for all this although they know perfectly well that it is completely beyond his control. The Minister has done and is doing everything in his power to help industry and to maintain employment. This is a problem not only here but all over the world. The great United States are far worse off than we are. Countries in Europe are far worse off than we are. Thank God we are keeping ourselves floating in such a difficult time. I am fully confident that the Minister and the Government will pull us out of this in the next few years.

I want to raise certain problems relating to the ESB and CIE. Opposition Deputies criticised the Minister. They did not criticise the management or the directors of CIE or the ESB. Why should they? They appointed every one of them. They could not criticise their own.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

The Deputy will appreciate that the Minister has to accept responsibility.

Mr. Finn

I put down a question recently to the Minister and he could not accept that question from me as an elected Deputy even though the taxpayers paid £17 million towards the running of CIE. As an elected Deputy I wanted to make a complaint. The Minister could not accept my question. It is a sad situation for people if the Minister has not enough power over the State-sponsored bodies. I suggest that the Minister should introduce legislation giving him more power over them and over managements in particular.

The CIE service to the west of Ireland has not improved in any way. The service to the south has improved considerably. On a train going to the west you may get a cup of tea and a sandwich. A Deputy who leaves here this evening has not got time to have a meal in Dublin and by the time he arrives in Westport it is 11 o'clock. No full meal service is provided on the trains to the west. I wonder if that is the case on the other lines. I am not blaming the Minister for that.

The directors and management are cutting out railway stations in the west and, under the new plan, I believe many of them are earmarked to go. I cannot understand this. The train does not stop at Balla so people have to hire a taxi to take them to Claremorris to get on the train whereas if the train stopped at Balla they could be at the station in five minutes. I believe it is contemplated that Ballyhaunis station will be affected. Ballyhaunis is a scheduled town for industrial development. It is a very substantial town. I cannot understand why CIE should want to cut out a station in one of the first scheduled towns in County Mayo in view of the fact that industrial development is to be carried out there.

I am not blaming the Minister for this but I am blaming him for not looking for more power over these people. Whatever Government are in power in the future they will have to legislate for more power over CIE and the other State-sponsored bodies.

Sometimes people who are developing group water schemes have to cross a railway line. These people are working on a voluntary basis. They make an application to CIE and they are held up for a considerable time before getting sanction from CIE. Who runs this country? Is it those people who can hold up development when groups of farmers are trying to carry out schemes? Sometimes it takes years to get sanction for a group water scheme to cross a railway line. It is about time these things were taken up. For the past 15 years Mayo County Council have been seeking the erection of special gates at a level crossing on the Ballindine-Claremorris line, where two people were killed, but their application has fallen on deaf ears.

The people of the west will not stand for any curtailment of the rail services. A proper rail service is necessary in any country and I blame the management structure in CIE for the fact that our rail service has deteriorated. A lot of the blame for the problems in CIE has been levelled at the Minister but it should be remembered that the people who constitute the board of that company were appointed by Fianna Fáil. I have not heard any criticism of that board by the Opposition. We should always bear in mind that the taxpayers pay £17 million for the upkeep of CIE.

The ESB are also directly under the control of the Department of Transport and Power although the Minister seems to believe that he has no control over them. The same position applies to the management of that board as applies to CIE. The Minister is facing up to his obligations in regard to the ESB. Many people building homes in rural areas have to pay the colossal charge by the ESB for connection. People have to pay between £500 and £1,000 for that connection. I know of young couples who have returned from England with their families and have had to pay up to £1,000 for that connection. This is wrong, especially when one considers that such young couples worked hard in England to save the money to return to their native townland. Where hardship exists the ESB should reduce the charge for this connection. I have made many requests to allow this charge to be paid over a period on the usual ESB bills but I was not successful. If the Minister has no power over the ESB to prevent them creating this hardship which discriminates against the poorer sections he should seek it from this House.

Many acres of bog are under the control of the Land Commission who take up to two years to allocate plots. If local people are prepared to work these bogs for the purpose of providing fuel for their households the Land Commission should allocate them speedily and at a modest rent. I know of many cases where there has been a delay of up to two years. In cases of an emergency, as exists at present, the Land Commission should allocate them.

Some years ago when cattle prices were good and everything was rosy people did not prepare for the rainy day. Those building new houses did not put chimneys in them but when the oil crisis occurred they regretted that move. I believe there should be a regulation stipulating that there must be a chimney in each house.

The Minister has big problems to cope with in his Department but I feel sure he will deal with all matters expeditiously. I was pleased to hear of the Government's intention to appoint a parliamentary committee to look into the affairs of semi-State bodies because the management boards of those bodies for too long have been dictating to the people. Until such investigations are carried out I cannot see anything good coming out of CIE or the ESB.

Mr. R.P. Burke

Every Member was circularised, for his guidance, with notes prepared by the Department in connection with this Estimate. From these notes one can see that it is possible to divide the responsibility of the Minister for Transport and Power under two headings, the question of oil and oil stocks and his control of the semi-State bodies which employ the greatest number of workers of any organisation.

There are 14 or 15 semi-State bodies directly under the control of the Minister. They were set up by the Houses of the Oireachtas and, in theory, they are under the control of this House. We have had an Estimate debate for the past few days and I would ask the Minister to look at the Gallery or the Distinguished Visitors' Gallery to see how many representatives of the semi-State bodies are present to hear what the elected representatives of the people are saying about them and their organisations. To my knowledge there is not one representative present—if I am wrong I apologise. When such vast sums of money are being given in subsidy, when so many people are employed and when so much capital is tied up in those semi-State bodies it is not too much to ask that their representatives should come here and listen to our views. As a previous speaker pointed out, this is our only opportunity to speak about the semi-State bodies. Under the Rules of this House we cannot get information from the Minister with regard to their day-to-day affairs. Out of common courtesy to the Parliament that established them, some representatives should be present to hear the views of Deputies, some critical and some in praise of them. It may be said that the personnel in the semi-State bodies can read the Dáil Debates but it would not be asking too much for senior representatives of the companies to be present in this House for the debate.

I applaud the Minister's decision to set up a select committee to investigate the operations of semi-State bodies. It is becoming increasingly obvious that some method of control must be found. When these organisations were set up it was never intended that they would impose such a burden on the community, as happened in the case of CIE and the ESB in relation to their recent charges.

I should not like it thought that I am only being critical. In my constituency in north County Dublin, we have Aer Lingus, Aer Rianta and Aerlinte, one of the most successful of semi-State bodies. We are indebted to the late Seán Lemass for his foresight in setting up our national airlines and for the encouragement he gave them. They are carrying out their duties in an excellent manner and they are the gateway to Ireland for many tourists. Our pilots and flight crews are famous for their courtesy, friendliness and their standard of service to passengers. They might be regarded as the frontline troops and they have carried out their work with dedication and efficiency. They have done it not only on behalf of their company but on behalf of the country. However, without the backup staff of mechanics, engineers, clerical staff and management, all the efforts of the flight crews would be of little use. We are lucky to have at Dublin Airport one of the finest combined industrial units.

It would be wrong of me not to comment on a particular unit who are experiencing a feeling of insecurity as a result of indecision by the Minister. I put down parliamentary questions to him in connection with the continuation of the excellent international restaurant at the airport. It provides excellent food and service for tourists. All of the staff do an excellent job. It is a pity that it was left under a cloud by the Minister's lack of decision and certainty as was demonstrated by questions asked in this House. I hope the Minister will take an opportunity, in replying to this debate, of giving airport staff generally some assurance about the continuation of that restaurant, which has the reputation of being one of the finest in the world. I can assure the Minister there is nothing to compare with that restaurant. I trust the Minister will reassure the country at large and the tourist industry in particular in regard to the continuation of that restaurant.

When speaking of staff at the airport it would be wrong for me to exclude the security staff. They have given excellent service over the past few years during a very trying period. They were called upon to carry out checks and duties far beyond what was originally expected of them. They carried on while they were considerably reduced in numbers, while the airport itself was expanding, while the facilities to be guarded were expanding and while the new terminal building was being constructed. While they are expected to carry out extra security work they are not being given extra personnel because of cut-backs made by the Minister. I would hope the Minister would appreciate the problems being experienced by the security staff at the airport, their having to undertake long hours of overtime because of shortage of personnel and that he would see his way to relaxing the restrictions and allowing more security officers to be employed.

In discussing progress at the airport, I feel the Minister and the Government could help to improve the sales of Aer Rianta, the airport handling organisation, and also the sales and profitability of Aer Lingus were they to allow the sale of duty-free goods on flights not merely to Europe and America but also between here and the United Kingdom. I put a question down in this regard to the Minister for Finance some time ago. The answer was that he could not see his way to changing the regulation to allow duty free sales because of some agreement with the British Exchequer. We are an independent nation, thanks be to God. Even if it is not to be a two-way sale operation we should at least have such sales on Irish planes. Such duty free facilities would be an encouragement to the tourist trade. It would also help the revenue situation of Aer Lingus and of Aer Rianta. I hope the Minister will see his way to making a unilateral decision. We do not have to do everything just because the British do it, or because they want us to do it; we do not always have to follow them slavishly, as we did recently with the Criminal Law (Jurisdiction) Bill just because they wanted us.

On page 46 of the Notes and Statistics prepared by the Minister to supplement the information given by him in introducing the Estimate he referred to the Euro-control organisation and said:

In 1965 Ireland became a member of the Convention relating to Co-operation for the Safety of Air Navigation (Eurocontrol). The purpose of Eurocontrol is to improve the control of traffic in the upper airspace (above 25,000 feet) over Western Europe by establishing a co-ordinated air traffic control system over the member States. The Organisation of Euro-control is financed by contributions from member States, based mainly on gross national product.

We became involved, as it says. The station was built at Shannon. But we learn now from newspaper reports that the Minister, because of a tight budgetary situation, is going to dis-honour this agreement.

Minister for Transport and Power (Mr. P. Barry)

That is not true and the Deputy will please withdraw it.

Mr. R.P. Burke

Perhaps the word "dishonour" was too strong— is not going to continue this agreement.

Mr. P. Barry

That is not true.

Mr. R.P. Burke

Has this been clarified in the last day?

Mr. P. Barry

Yes.

Mr. R.P. Burke

I am grateful that it has been clarified.

Mr. P. Barry

As usual, the Deputy is behind.

Mr. R.P. Burke

I will catch up with the Minister in a moment. I am glad the Minister has seen the light and has agreed to continue our commitment which was signed in 1965.

Mr. P. Barry

On a point of order, a Leas-Cheann Comhairle, and I am sorry to interrupt the Deputy—it is the only time I have interrupted any speaker—the Deputy is implying that I have changed my mind about this. There is no question of that. The reports which were leaked to the papers by members of his party deliberately tried to muddy the waters in this regard. There is no truth in what they released to the papers, and I am asking the Deputy to believe that now.

Mr. R.P. Burke

I am grateful that the Minister——

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

It is normal procedure, when a Minister denies a statement, that that be accepted.

Mr. R.P. Burke

I accepted it before the Minister intervened. In speaking about airports it must be said that the overall development and expansion of Dublin Airport is creating certain problems. While we are all anxious to see an extension of the airport, a continuation of the services for travellers, and an increase in the employment potential of the airport, it does create problems for the existing community around the airport. I refer in particular to the village of St. Margaret's and the surrounding area, where there is a great feeling of insecurity. I attended a meeting there the other evening. People in that village are very anxious that representatives of the Minister's Department, of the county council, Aer Rianta and public representatives would sit down together and find out exactly what is happening, when it will happen and how it will affect their village.

On page 26 of the document to which I referred earlier the Minister referred to the extension of the runways at the airport, when he said:

The provision of these runways and the development of general facilities at Dublin Airport will necessitate the acquisition of 1,000 acres which is at present in train. About 75 acres have been acquired by voluntary agreement. An Order was made on August 30th, 1971 for the compulsory acquisition of about 237 acres. Practically all of this area has been acquired. Two further Orders for the acquisition of about 700 acres were made in November, 1973 and April, 1974.

The problem is that while the orders were placed, there was no follow up. Compulsory purchase orders have been made on the land. The farmers there are in the situation that there has been a compulsory purchase order placed on them by the Department and they do not know where they are going next, there has been no communication or contact with them. I put a question down today, which will be appearing on the Order Paper next week, asking the Minister to meet a deputation which I hope the Minister will see his way to doing, with all his officials. It is not alone the landowners who are very concerned about their future in St. Margaret's but people generally. They do not know exactly what will happen when these new runways are built. They do not know what will happen, first of all, from the point of view of the physical alteration of the village, will the present church have to go or will the school have to go? Will people have to be moved out of their homes and will new houses have to be built for these people? There is that physical element.

There is then the noise element. Will it be possible to continue living in the area? In today's Irish Independent there is an article by a Mr. Bill Somers headed: “Is it the noisiest airport in the world?” and the article has this to say:

The noise levels of aircraft taking off from Collinstown are certainly far higher than the maximum permitted by law in other European airports. It is not a record to be proud of and the result can have far-reaching effects on the lives of those living in the vicinity.

If we apply the result of the study carried out by the University of California at Los Angeles Airport to Dublin Airport, then, not only does noise affect buildings (cracking walls and windows) but it can have serious repercussions on humans.

Later, the article states:

In Ireland at Dublin Airport, appropriate noise abatement procedures for the various runways have been produced by Aer Lingus and are followed by all Aer Lingus aircraft.

However, there is no noise measuring equipment and no legislation has been introduced as yet to implement the regulations or back them with State authority.

I would ask the Minister to bring in such regulations as quickly as possible for the benefit of the population in St. Margaret's because of the construction of the new runways and for the benefit of the population in general in North County Dublin. The people living in Ballymun are affected for about 11 months of the year because during that period flights are taking off in a south westerly direction which brings them close to the Ballymun complex. What affect will this noise have on the children in Ballymun, Finglas, Malahide and Portmarnock? I hope the Minister will bring in the necessary legislation as soon as possible. I appreciate that there are problems about safety in taking off and landing and none of us wants to become involved in passing legislation which might in any way endanger life but surely some greater controls could be exercised. At the moment the controls are voluntary. I believe they should be statutory.

What exactly is happening in the road freight industry? There are licensed hauliers who can carry on a Twenty-six County basis and there are hauliers who are limited to within 15 miles of the GPO. This regulation was brought in in the days of the horse and cart more or less. Now, with the expansion of industry—unfortunately, it is not expanding at the moment; it is contracting—you have towns like Balbriggan and Skerries which are outside the 15-mile limit and this is causing major difficulties for the companies operating in the area from the point of view of haulage. I hope the Minister will bring in the promised legislation as soon as possible to regularise the whole situation with regard to road freight.

I should like to compliment those responsible for preparing the Minister's brief. It has been of tremendous assistance. The different consumptions of energy are given. In dealing with oil and the cost of oil, the situation of the glasshouse industry and the fishing industry are very important in my particular area. It is generally recognised that the biggest concentration of the glasshouse industry is around Rush, Skerries and Balbriggan. The industry is dependent on oil. There was a subsidy of about 5p last year which was reduced to 2p. I would ask the Minister to make available a subsidy of at least 5p or, if possible, increase it to 7p or 8p. I would make the same appeal where the fishing industry is concerned. The problems are obvious and I would ask the Minister to have another look at the situation.

Some time back an international energy programme was mooted of which Ireland was to become a part. The programme states: "Emergency reserves will be increased to a 90-day level." I know this is being debated at the moment. I hope this will not be proceeded with and I wonder would the Minister clarify the position. Who, for instance, will pay for the construction for this extra 30 days fuel reserves? We have 60 days and now it is proposed to add another 30 days. The construction for this would be a massive imposition on already overburdened taxpayers, merely to satisfy the whims of the multi-nationals. I trust this agreement will be withdrawn altogether.

The Minister is responsible for Bord Fáilte. Bord Fáilte have over the years acquired a great deal of expertise and experience and this would be of great advantage to us in north County Dublin. Dublin County Council are in process of acquiring 200 acres in Portmarnock for amenity purposes and we would be very grateful to have Bord Fáilte move in in a strictly advisory capacity on this programme. We should place greater emphasis on holidays at home. This could redound to the benefit of seaside resorts like Skerries and Rush.

We have some very fine facilities, such as the one which received a prize not so long ago "The Good Old Days" exhibition and club in Rush, north County Dublin. Private initiative has provided a facility there of which we are very proud. We also have the Skerries and Balbriggan area, Portrane/Donabate and also the Malahide area, where there are so many fine golf clubs, such as the Island, Malahide and the public course in Corballis. All of these amenities are there but Bord Fáilte are not doing enough to sell them to Irish and foreign tourists.

It is time the Government had a look at the licensing laws which operate in this country. When a person goes abroad on a holiday, it is possible to have a drink with a late meal in a restaurant but here, unless a tourist is registered in a hotel, he has not got that facility. Bord Fáilte and the Minister could have a look at this.

Nobody needs to be reminded about the dismal failure of the ESB, especially at the moment with a massive increase in charges. We had the spectacle of advertisements telling us to save energy and use it wisely. Then we had the ludicrous situation that the ESB tell us, because we were not using enough energy, they had to increase their charges. There must be a breakdown between the Government and the ESB when something like this can happen. It is up to the Government to protect the interests of the people.

A number of Deputies on both sides of the House spoke about the appalling connection charges which the ESB are imposing for new connections to the grid. In rural areas, of which there are many in north County Dublin, charges have been running to as high as £750 and £1,000 for connections to new bungalows. Something should be done about this by the Government. It not only affects rural areas but also towns and districts.

Dublin County Council are in the course of constructing a local authority housing scheme of 112 houses in Brackenstown, Swords. Some of those houses were allocated recently. The officials gave the members of the county council a breakdown of the cost of the houses, which runs to between £8,000 and £10,000. Part of the breakdown showed that the ESB were paid £90 per house for a connection charge to each house. This is directly on to the backs of local authority tenants in their rents or, if they have the house on a purchase scheme, the price is increased by £90. A semi-State organisation, such as the ESB, should not be permitted to charge £90 for connection charges in local authority housing schemes. I do not think the Parliamentary Secretary would try to justify that charge.

CIE seem to be a law unto themselves. They are able to increase the inflationary spiral any time they like by increasing the fares and reducing their services to the people. Those massive increases have a great affect on the homes and lives of ordinary workers of this city and county. I will leave country Deputies to speak for their own areas. I represent, and hope to for many years, the new town of Ballymun. There is no industry around that area so the workers from there have to travel by bus to jobs in the centre of the city, Finglas, and factories and offices right around the city, some even as far as the industrial estate in Tallaght. The fare increases are crippling to families who are already struggling under the burden of ever-rising prices of foodstuffs and other commodities. Those price increases cause further demands for wage increases and the spiral continues.

The Government are doing nothing about this. It is the prime responsibility of the Minister for Transport and Power and the Minister for Finance to do something about this. It is not enough for the Taoiseach or any of the Ministers to make speeches saying that inflation is going wild and to say what they are to do about it. They should do something about it because the workers of Dublin have been crippled by the recent fare increases.

We also have the reduction in services. For example, the night train to north County Dublin has been taken off. This serviced various stations, including Balbriggan and Skerries. It has been replaced by a bus service which is costing more for workers who are on late shifts and it means they are an hour later getting home at night. CIE said they had not enough engines.

Mr. Kelly

Six of their engines were destroyed by terrorists.

(Interruptions.)

Mr. R.P. Burke

The Minister for Transport and Power might not be doing his job as a Minister but he is always very courteous in the House. He listens quietly and brings you to order if you accuse him of something which he has not done. One cannot say this about the Parliamentary Secretary who is guaranteed to cause a row any time he comes into the House. Nobody would like more to have a row with him than I but that is not what we are in this House for. We are here to debate the Estimate for the Department of Transport and Power and the failure of that Minister to look after the interests of the taxpayers of the country. He was elected to do this and he cannot palm it off on semi-State bodies.

I was speaking about the inadequate train service provided for people in my constituency because of an arbitrary decision made by the CIE authorities, a decision on which they were not prepared to negotiate, although they did meet deputations. There is the ludicrous situation that we subsidise them to the extent of £17 million and at the same time when I put down a question to ask the Minister about this decision of CIE I was, of course, refused on the basis that the Minister had no responsibility, that it was the responsibility of the CIE authority. The Minister is the responsible Minister. If nothing else, there is one thing that should come out of this debate, that is, that the Minister must be prepared to accept questions in this House on matters relating to semi-State bodies under his control. This call has come to him from all sides of the House.

Mr. Enright

The rules of the House prevent it.

Mr. R.P. Burke

The rules should be changed. It is ludicrous that subsidised bodies in a monopoly situation are immune from questions in the House. It is wrong.

CIE are acting in a very highhanded manner, as is traditional, with relation to bus services and show no understanding of the shift in population in County Dublin. Dublin Airport is in the centre of the north County Dublin area. Workers come from Malahide and Portmarnock to the airport. Unless they go by car they must go into town on one bus or on the train and take a bus back to the airport. We have appealed to CIE on a number of occasions to institute a circular service taking in, say, Howth, Portmarnock, Malahide, through Swords to the airport and then to Ballymun to serve workers from the Ballymun area working in factories in Swords and north County Dublin, including the airport. We have got no help from CIE in this respect. We get the usual reply, "It is being considered." Nothing happens. The meagre service that we have at the moment is being reduced. The train service for night workers in the north county has been reduced.

The ESB have been asked continuously over a number of years to provide sub-offices in the towns of Malahide and Balbriggan to facilitate people who want to have coin boxes opened. A person living in Balbriggan has to go to Skerries. He has to get a bus from Balbriggan early in the afternoon. There is no bus back to Balbriggan so the person has to walk back. The county council and the town commissioners in Balbriggan have asked the ESB to open an office on even one day a month in Balbriggan for a couple of hours to facilitate customers. The ESB in their highhanded manner refused. The same case can be made for people living in Malahide. There is no bus connection between Malahide and Swords.

There you have two semi-State bodies who were set up to provide a service for the people and they are not providing the service. A person in Malahide who has a coin meter must go to Swords to have it opened because there is no office in Malahide. An office is required in the Malahide-Portmarnock district. The points I have made may seem minor details to the Parliamentary Secretary but they are important matters for people living in the North County Dublin constituency. This is the only opportunity that I as a Deputy for the area have to voice those views in the House. If I put down a question about these matters to the Minister they are rejected on the basis that the Minister is not responsible.

Mr. Kelly

I hope, if the Deputy is made a member of the new committee on CIE, the ESB and the other State bodies, he will have a full opportunity of making these points and examining their financial performance.

Mr. Moore

He can make it publicly here.

Mr. R.P. Burke

This is public and this is where it ought to be made.

Mr. Kelly

So is the Public Accounts Committee and so presumably will be the committee on the semi-State bodies.

Mr. Moore

That is two years behind. It must be that way.

Mr. Kelly

I wish we could have caught up with what happened in the Public Accounts Committee two years ago. We still have not caught up with that.

Mr. Moore

Be more explicit.

Mr. R.P. Burke

Tread carefully.

Mr. Moore

We are going to christen the Parliamentary Secretary "Deputy Rise a Row".

Mr. Kelly

Deputy Moore is certainly not to blame for the trouble we have seen here recently. I want to exonerate him. He will not deny that it is from the side of the House where he sits that there has come black-guardedly behaviour day in, day out.

Mr. R.P. Burke

The lily-white Parliamentary Secretary never made any statement in this House which could have brought any police reply. When he makes a statement it is like a red rag to a bull.

Mr. Kelly

You are not able to deny it.

Mr. R.P. Burke

I?

Mr. Kelly

Not the Deputy personally but his side of the House. They are great at handing it out but cannot take it.

Mr. R.P. Burke

At 4.55 on a Thursday evening the Parliamentary Secretary talks about causing a row. Nobody is causing a row more quickly than the Parliamentary Secretary. He is incapable of sitting down quietly like a Parliamentary Secretary.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

Deputy Burke, on the Estimate.

Mr. R.P. Burke

We have a Minister for Transport and Power who in nearly two-and-a-half years has succeeded in increasing the charges imposed by the various semi-State bodies under his control and the items directly under his control such as petrol, et cetera. He has been responsible for more price increases than any other Minister. I do not want to be personal but the Minister must take the blame as the responsible Minister. There have been massive increases in ESB and CIE charges and in the cost of petrol.

We remember the spectacle of the Minister for Finance introducing the savage 15p increase in mid-December when he was broke and the international bankers would not give him extra money and he had to do something fast without giving the House an opportunity of voting until the Opposition demanded a vote and got it a night later when, of course, the damage was done. The Minister for Transport and Power has been responsible for all of these savage increases. I move the adjournment of the debate.

Debate adjourned.