Dáil Éireann debate -
Thursday, 22 May 1975

Vol. 281 No. 3

Adjournment Debate: - Laois VEC Dispute.

Mr. Lalor

I want to thank the Ceann Comhairle for allowing me to raise this matter tonight. I am conscious of the fact that it was raised before in the House. I am raising it tonight because in my constituency it has become an extremely bitter topic. I outlined the situation on 11th February and at that time the Minister indicated to me that his decision was held up in relation to the appointment of a headmaster in the Portlaoise vocational school. This has been at issue for 12 months now. The Minister said he would make his decision when a copy of the legal advice which was being given to the Laois Vocational Committee was available to him.

Last Tuesday I asked the Minister for Education if he had, as yet, studied the legal advice offered last March to the Laois County Vocational Education Committee in relation to its dispute with him and if he would announce his decision on the matter. The Minister said he had seen the legal advice in question, that it was discussed at a meeting of the vocational educational committee on 14th April and that their views were conveyed to him in the minutes of that meeting. He went on to say that he was now considering the views of the committee and that he would be in touch with them in due course.

The chairman of the committee is quoted in The Irish Times of 19th May, in an article which went into this matter in detail. The chairman said that the legal opinion had satisfied him that the majority of the committee were right. This committee are at present at loggerheads with the Minister for Education. In the article the writer recounts the strange history of the dispute between the Minister and the Laois Vocational Education Committee. The article says that behind it—and “it” is my question— lies a long and bitter dispute which has brought the vocational education committee to the point of self-destruction and all on the apparently minor issues of the regulations governing the appointment of headmasters.

The article goes on to discuss the possibilities. There was a possibility that the Minister might dissolve the committee and take all decisions himself or that he would stand down and allow the committee to dictate to him. The third possibility was that he would allow it to drag on. The article said the indications are that the Minister will choose the third possibility and the strange thing is that nobody, least of all the committee, seems to be concerned. As a representative of Laois-Offaly, with particular emphasis on Laois because I look upon myself as a Laois representative, I want to say that a great number of people are interested. The longer this goes on the greater the damage being done to education in County Laois.

In a letter which he wrote on 18th September last the Minister said, as reported at Volume 278, column 167 of the Official Report, that it was essential in the interests of the pupils concerned that the vacant post of principal of Portlaoise vocational school should be filled immediately in accordance with the provisions of Memorandum V.7. The committee refused to appoint the man they should have appointed. He is the only person qualified. The Minister has said this. I might point out that there is no dispute between the Minister and myself on this. We both agree on what should be done. I feel the Minister is shirking his responsibility in this regard. I know it is a difficult thing for him to do. As a responsible Deputy for the area. I do not want to see the Laois Vocational Education Committee being dissolved. On the other hand, if we are to avoid having a miniature dictatorship set up, it is the only thing to be done. I am sorry for the responsible people—and there are a few responsible people—on that committee.

Deputy Flanagan is chairman of this committee. I am sorry that he is not here tonight. As the Fianna Fáil Whip I am aware that the reason for his not being here is that he is celebrating his birthday. Deputy Flanagan knows me well enough to appreciate that anything I have to say about him I am willing to say to him. I am sure he was aware that this matter was coming up tonight and that he was free to be here.

This has now become a very serious issue. Deputy Flanagan and the man I described before in the House as his sidekick, Councillor Keenan—unfortunately that reference was passed on to a reverend gentleman on the committee——

An Ceann Comhairle

The Chair is very anxious that the convention to which we try to conform concerning outsiders should be adhered to.

Mr. Lalor

I am sorry. I can refer to Deputy Flanagan.

An Ceann Comhairle

The Chair would prefer if we did not involve ourselves in personalities at all.

Mr. Lalor

The problem is that his name is in the quotation. There is a particular friend of Deputy Flanagan's on the county council. Both those people have set themselves up as virtual dictators in County Laois at county council level and vocational education committee level, and indeed at county committee of agriculture level, to the greatest extent possible.

The annoying feature about it is that in this article the writer goes into the possibility of the Minister dissolving the local education authority and says: "The dissolution of a local education authority on the rather slender grounds of disregard of regulations which may not be regulations at all"—this is according to the legal advice—"will be a difficult decision politically, particularly for a Minister who has made a virtue of his desire for consultation and local democracy." I do not want to take from any name or claim which the Minister may have in this regard. I fully accept that we can have local democracy but for goodness sake, do not let us have local dictatorship.

The last time I spoke in the House about this I spoke about the fact that previously on the old vocational committee, which was completely monopolised by one political party, Fine Gael, there were four members who supported doing the right thing, the adoption of the memo and the carrying out of regulations. When the new vocational committee were constituted, those four representatives were removed from that committee by dictatorial action. One of those people, this is the most horrible feature of it —I can name him because he is here in the House—was Deputy McDonald who wanted to do the right thing, to do what I want the Minister to do now, but who was removed by more powerful forces in his own organisation from that vocational committee simply and solely because he wanted to abide by the regulations which the Minister and his advisers had laid down.

I sympathise with the Minister in this regard but I want to put on the records of the House the common belief of the people of my county as to the reason why the hands of the Minister are tied in this matter. That common belief is that the Minister cannot rule in this issue on proper lines against the wishes of Deputy Flanagan, the chairman of the vocational committee, because the Taoiseach has a letter from Deputy Flanagan setting out what the alternatives will be if——

Mr. Enright

Could the Deputy produce this letter?

Mr. Lalor

I am making a statement of belief.

An Ceann Comhairle

Let us have no interruptions please.

Mr. Enright

In other words, you think there is a letter but you do not know?

Mr. Lalor

I think there is a letter.

Mr. Enright

But you do not know?

Mr. Lalor

No.

An Ceann Comhairle

There must be no interruptions.

Mr. Lalor

I am saying that it is the belief in my county.

Mr. Enright

You are supposing.

Mr. Lalor

Yes, and it is the current rumour. I am making this quite clear. Whose side are you on?

Mr. Wilson

Is Deputy Enright backing Charlie or not?

An Ceann Comhairle

I am anxious that this debate should continue in an orderly fashion, devoid of question and answer or interruption or disorder of any kind.

Mr. Lalor

If the Deputy has the courage of his convictions and says which side he is on, that is OK with me.

An Ceann Comhairle

Please, Deputy Lalor.

Mr. Lalor

I want to say that this is the belief, that there is a threat either of resignation or, according to the report I have heard, the Deputy may vote against the Government on the Criminal Law (Jurisdiction) Bill. That is the threat. That same Deputy went against the now Taoiseach——

An Ceann Comhairle

I am afraid we are straying considerably from the subject matter of the question—"Legal advice offered last March to Laois County Vocational Committee in respect of a dispute."

Mr. Lalor

I am conscious of this. I certainly do not want to have any argument with the Chair on this matter because I am very grateful for the opportunity of raising it here, but I am mainly trying to get across to the Minister that the article in the paper on Monday last said that "the strange thing is that nobody, least of all the VEC, seems concerned in relation to this position." The people of Laois are very concerned. This question was down on Tuesday last and I had repeated calls from The Leinster Express and The Nationalist, the two principal papers circulating in my area, on Thursday to know what was the outcome of the question because peculiarly enough, the Government Information Services had on Thursday last rung the local paper in Portlaoise, The Leinster Express, to say that the Minister was making a statement that day in connection with the headmaster appointed in Portlaoise.

Mr. Wilson

That was not a rumour?

Mr. Lalor

No. That is my information from the local paper. The Minister did not make a statement. The question was put down for Thursday and it was not reached— questions stopped about four steps from this question. It came up on Tuesday and the local Press wanted the answer because they know that their readers and the parents particularly in Portlaoise area are most interested in seeing this problem resolved and I ask the Minister to resolve it. I know he is anxious to resolve it. He has spelled out quite clearly, and it is on the records, his position in this matter. I would probably go off course by talking about the indecisiveness of Government Ministers in the overall and of this being the reason for our economic problems and everything ele at this time and would be out of order. I find this discussion difficult from my point of view because I know that on the principle and on what the right thing to do is, the Minister is of the same mind as I am. His difficulty is——

Mr. Wilson

That he has not got the courage.

Mr. Lalor

I will not go so far as to say that he has not got the courage, but it is a difficult decision for him to make if what I hear by way of rumour is correct. I have no doubt that the Minister wants to do the right thing and basically what I sought permission to do tonight was to ask him to do the right thing as soon as possible because this vacancy has been there for the past 12 months and the longer it drags on the worse it is getting.

The Minister is on record as saying in The Irish Times of Monday last that “there is some confusion about the regulation on teaching experience” and he conceded this last week. On Tuesday in the House he did not concede that—I am quoting from The Irish Times of Monday last and the full paragraph reads: “The Minister says this will not work”—that is, putting it back long enough so that the man whom a couple of people on the vocational committee say is the right and the best man will qualify on the five-year basis—“as the five years must be completed at the time of the competition which was last summer” and in inverted commas, there follows “There is some confusion about the regulation on teaching experience, he conceded last week.”

Mr. R. Burke

There is confusion in the minds of those who assert otherwise is what I meant to convey.

Mr. Lalor

I fully accept that. The Minister reiterated that view on Tuesday when he said there was no confusion and that the regulations were spelled out. We have the legal view which says that the Minister's memo V7, according to advice given to the VEC, has no standing. I would be interested in the Minister's observations on that.

The Minister should tell the House and the interested people represented by Deputies Flanagan, McDonald, Enright, but particularly by Deputy Connolly and myself, that he will reach an early decision on the matter so that there will be a headmaster at that school.

Minister for Education (Mr. R. Burke)

I dealt with the history of this matter in detail when I replied to the debate on a motion on the Adjournment by the Deputy on 11th February last. My reply is recorded in the Official Report of that date and I do not propose to go back over the information I gave to the House at length at that time. I concluded my reply on that date by stating that the position, as I then understood it, was that the committee were seeking legal advice as to the propriety of their own actions in the matter and I expected to be informed of the outcome of their inquiries without delay. I stated then when this information was conveyed to me I would then be in a position to make a determination in the matter. In the event, the opinion of senior counsel, dated 7th March, 1973, did not reach the offices of the County Laois Vocational Education Committee until the day before the ordinary monthly meeting of the committee on 10th March, 1975. In the circumstances the committee unanimously decided that "it was a long and intricate document which would require serious study". It was decided that a copy of the document would be made available to each member of the committee and that the matter be put on the agenda for discussion at the committee's meeting in April.

I do not think it is necessary for me to recount in detail the advice of senior counsel to the committee. It will suffice to say that he concluded his opinion by a statement in relation to the Minister's position where he has had to decline to approve the proposal put to him. This statement was generally in conformity with the request which I, as Minister, had made to the committee in relation to the filling of the vacancy and which a reading of my reply on the Adjournment debate will clearly illustrate.

Notwithstanding the essential conclusion which had been reached in the legal opinion which the committee had sought, the committee, having considered that opinion at its ordinary meeting on 14th April, 1975, adopted, by a majority decision of nine votes to five, a motion reaffirming its decision to continue in the capacity of acting principal of Portlaoise Vocational School the person whose appointment in that or any other capacity as principal I had been unable to approve. I had been unable to approve of that on the grounds that he did not satisfy the requirements for appointment to the post, whereas another candidate was available who complied with the requirements in full. That candidate was, therefore, qualified for appointment to the post on a permanent basis.

As I stated in reply to the Deputy's question to me on 20th May, I am considering the views adopted by the committee as presented at its meeting on 14th April and I propose to be in touch with them in due course. It would not be appropriate for me to anticipate, in a statement from me in reply to this debate, my communication to the committee of the decision which I may make in relation to the matter. I am not precluded, however, from pointing out that the committee's attitude presents me with a situation where certain action which is open to me to take within the provisions of the Vocational Education Acts is one which a Minister for Education would hesitate to adopt until all attempts at reaching a solution based on reason and conciliation has failed. I hope the Deputy and the House will appreciate my concern that every effort should be made to avoid the necessity for resorting to such action in the particular circumstances of the case in question.

I am glad the Deputy has confirmed and put on record that he, a Deputy for the area, does not want to see the County Laois VEC dissolved. The continued pursuit by that committee of the attitude it has adopted in this case seems to me to be entirely irrational. It does not accord with the undoubtedly high standard of performance which has hitherto characterised its discharge of its functions and duties. I would be very sorry to be forced into the position of taking action that would reflect on the persons concerned. I trust it may still be possible to prevail upon the committee to understand that no good can come from an unyielding stand in an indefensible position. They should consider how intransigence on their part may be harmful to the interests of the very important area of education in which they play such a vital part in common with other vocational education committees.

I am sure the committee would not wish to persist in any action which would perceive to be a disservice to vocational education generally. The Deputy has invited me to do the right thing as soon as possible. He has expressly excluded dissolution of the committee as one of the options. He has not spelled out in detail as to what is the right thing to do in the circumstances. It is not his duty to do so; it is my duty as Minister to do so but I would like the benefit of the Deputy's point of view in this matter, personally or privately. He has not put it on the record of the House but I want to assure the House that I shall, as I have tried to do since the beginning of my term of office as Minister, try to do the right thing. However, the question is, what is the right thing in this matter? The Deputy has excluded dissolution of the committee but there are other options and we will take them in due course when I communicate with the County Laois Vocational Education Committee.

Mr. Wilson

The sword of Damocles.

The Dáil adjourned at 11 p.m. until 10.30 a.m. on Friday, 23rd May, 1975.