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Dáil Éireann debate -
Wednesday, 28 May 1975

Vol. 281 No. 6

Private Members' Business. - Youth Development Policy: Motion (Resumed).

Debate resumed on the following motion:
That Dáil Éireann deplores the failure of the Government to produce a comprehensive policy on youth development which has had a serious effect on youth organisations throughout the country and calls on the Government to announce their policy, if any, forthwith.
—(Deputy Wyse)

I said last night that I felt the whole community should be involved in a youth development policy. In the policy being evolved by the Parliamentary Secretary, Deputy Bruton, we must ensure that the cold hand of bureaucracy does not fall on the voluntary bodies who have done tremendous work for our youth. Whatever policy is put forward must be an aid and a guide to these voluntary organisations. We do not want an authoritarian document laying down rules and regulations. This would cause more problems than it would solve. Knowing the Parliamentary Secretary I have no doubt that this will not happen but, not knowing what is in the document it is important that that should be said in the House. People are asking why the document has not been issued to date. Last night the Minister clearly indicated that it is almost completed. I hope that it will issue some time in the near future.

A youth development policy encompasses quite a number of Departments apart from the Department of Education. The Department of Labour and AnCO are involved in apprenticeship training. The Department of Local Government are involved in the community. Where young people are in trouble with the law, the Department of Justice are involved. The Department of Health are involved in remedial work. When we are talking about a plan it is important that the whole aspect of youth activity from A to Z is taken into account.

Too many people think that youth involvement is connected with sports only. This is important but it is only a facet of the problem. Greater emphasis should be placed on physical education for young people. In many schools it is haphazard. If a teacher is interested in athletics and sport, that school will have a greater participation in physical education than another school where there is no teacher who is interested in those activities. There should be a co-ordinated effort in all the schools at the primary level. This is the proper place to develop an attitude towards physical education. Later, young people have adopted certain attitudes and they have lost the initiative to participate in physical education or sporting activities. The Minister should examine that thoroughly because it is easy to mould the minds and attitudes of young children.

The National Youth Council are doing excellent work in co-ordinating activities. Great credit is due to them. They could play a significant role in moulding public opinion. We are very vulnerable to advertisements. Clothing is advertised to appeal to the herd instinct of young people rather than to the individual mind. We are living in a consumer society. Young people have good earning potential and they are the people who spend. In many ways advertisers use young people unscrupulously. People who are concerned about our youth should launch a campaign against this nauseating exploitation of young people.

We should have local authority youth officers in the country such as we have in the Dublin area. They could play their part as youth leaders and they could train our young people. If this type of thing is too centralised it becomes too impersonalised. When people are involved in an area, they become part of that area. With regard to training officers, they train the people in their area, which has the effect of providing the type of leadership needed. One of today's problems is that we have not got sufficient youth leaders within our voluntary organisations. One way of achieving this would be through local authority development and it is to be hoped that such bodies might be involved in whatever plan the Parliamentary Secretary has in mind.

Opposition speakers spoke about the breakdown of youth services and there was some hysteria shown in that respect. I do not believe there has been any breakdown. Indeed, the figures prove that greater numbers are entering youth organisations, which is something we should encourage and in respect of which larger sums of money have been allocated by the Government since they assumed office. There was grave neglect of any youth policy by the last Government, which is one of the reasons it has taken a fair amount of time to produce the requisite document to coordinate the various aspects involved. Had we had an ongoing policy over the years, this would not have been the case. Rather we had stop, go efforts to which very little thought was given. Any policy that will withstand the test of time requires indepth study and consideration. When one considers all the Departments involved, it is, indeed, necessary that that policy withstand the test of time. I think the Minister indicated it would be a policy which would be carried through to the end of the century. The Minister said so with confidence which I have no doubt was justified.

There are grave problems being experienced in our society today, amongst which are those of vandalism, bad school attendance, violence and so on. One of the reasons is the type of consumer society in which we live where not sufficient emphasis is placed on civic education. Sufficient attention is not paid to the development of young people's minds. There are good libraries in Dublin; there are also the Museum, Art galleries and so on but they are under-utilised. People do not know their cities or their historical backgrounds. Recently I was in a school not a mile from here. I asked the pupils there where Leinster House was situated and, after some minutes—out of approximately 20 pupils—one boy told me. That is the kind of knowledge that is lacking, all of which stems from lack of education. Of course, education begins in the home. Then we move into school where there should be provided this type of civil education, development of the mind and of one's ability to question. If we can get people to ask questions, then there will not be this herd instinct that tends to obtain at present, from which emerge pop groups and the mass hysteria developed by the media solely for profit and not for young people's enjoyment.

Those are some of the problems that will have to be tackled in the parliamentary report when it is published, with suggestions being made as to how we can build a better society because the foundations of any society are its young people. We must inspire them with a degree of idealism. If youth has not idealism, a nation will suffer and in the youth of today that type of idealism appears to be lacking. There is a certain degree of nationalism around which is evil. An idealist is one who looks into the future and who builds a nation. We are a young country facing a tremendous challenge as a result of entering the industrial scene with the advent of oil, gas and mineral deposits. We must ask ourselves are our young people equipped to meet that challenge. If not, hopefully we still have time to achieve that aim. Again, education will play a vital role in gearing them to accept the challenge.

But whatever the future brings, up to now the people who have participated in the development of youth are deserving of the highest praise for their dedication and concern. I would urge the Government to give every help and encouragement to such people so that we may look forward to an Ireland that rears to manhood people who are concerned with, say, the elderly, the feeble, the needy; that we develop in our people that deep social conscience. This can be done. The voluntary bodies consist of people who have a deep sense of social commitment otherwise such people would not be rendering service to them. That is why I am completely in favour of voluntary bodies because they instil in people the same sense of dedication, honour and service which are important.

I look forward to this document. This motion was badly worded and, in that sense, unnecessary. We are all concerned with youth. I am satisfied that when this policy is announced the voluntary bodies will get its objectives working and will receive the requisite assistance from the various Departments. If we can achieve that, we can, indeed, look forward to a bright future for our country.

Listening to the Minister's speech last night reminded me of one of the unwritten rules of youth leadership. A youth leader should never appear to be patronising the young people he or she is looking after. If the youth feel they are being patronised they recognise it immediately and resent it. My reason for saying this is because I wish to draw a parallel between the Minister's speech and what I have just said. I do not believe there is one youth leader in this country who will not feel that the Minister's speech was an attempt to patronise. He obviously had not spent much time preparing it. If it was prepared by his Parliamentary Secretary he owed more to it than he contributed. When Members on this side of the House tried to get copies of his speech from his Private Secretary they were told they were not available.

Mr. R. Burke

On a point of order, at Private Members' Time it is not incumbent on a Minister or a Parliamentary Secretary to provide copies of his opening statements.

As a matter of courtesy the Minister might have supplied copies. However, we managed later to get copies and I would like now to deal with some points. The Minister said that the youth policy was not promised by a particular time, that it was undertaken by the Department of Education and was not hived off to some commission or other who could have used it as a blame-taker. By saying that he did not seem to be aware of the fact that at every youth seminar over the past two-and-a-half years, at which his Parliamentary Secretary spoke, he told these people that a youth policy would be produced shortly. It was to come out before Christmas, 1973, then the summer, 1974, then Christmas, 1974, and we are still waiting for it. While the Minister's statement did not promise it by a particular time, youth organisations were led to believe that it was imminent.

This document is apparently ready because parts of it were leaked to a newspaper early in February. Of whom is the Minister afraid? Why does he not produce this document and let the youth organisations see what is in it? He stated on a number of occasions that this would be a discussion document. How long will the youth organisations have to wait before they can discuss it? It is very important to realise that youth organisations need a framework within which to work. Before they organise themselves into the regional structures they would like, they need to know approximately what is in the Department's mind and they are not being told.

I am also worried about the half hearted treatment of this section of the Department. It is not even listed in the State Directory as the Youth Recreation Section. Apparently it does not even warrant listing. A Parliamentary Secretary was appointed. He has now also been appointed to the Department of Industry and Commerce. We now have what I would describe as half a Parliamentary Secretary. In that section there are four administrative assistants and one part-time assistant. Most of these workers are part-timers. They are not allowed devote their full time to this most important work.

The Minister also said that it was important not to tie up resources in permanent but potentially redundant expenditures. He listed as examples buildings and permanent full-time youth worker posts. That must come as a very severe shock to the youth organisations. I hope he will reexamine this because one of the basis of future growth of the youth service must be the recruitment of full-time youth officers on a regional basis. Youth workers want a partnership with the State. They do not wish to take over from the State nor do they, as Deputy O'Brien said, want to see a bureaucracy dictating to them. They want a partnership where State, local authorities and youth organisations can work together.

I will now deal with the importance of buildings and the money tied up in them. On the north side of Dublin city alone there are over 1,000 young people on the waiting list for scouting organisations, because there are no premises available. Approximately 30 per cent of our young people actually belong to youth clubs. It is very important that more of our young people, particularly the unattached, belong to these clubs.

While on that subject, I appeal to the Parliamentary Secretary to appeal to the Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister for Finance about the Bourn Vincent Park. The Office of Public Works say that groups of scouts cannot be trusted to use the national parks, in spite of the requirements of the Bourn Vincent bequest. I would be very happy if the Parliamentary Secretary would do this, as would the scouting organisations.

The Minister also said that on the point made by the Deputy—I think he was referring to Deputy Wyse— and by others—who had not even spoken—that progress is being held up because of a lack of policy, that people who so contend should be asked to identify the precise proposals which are being held up. I would now like to identify some of these proposals. One is the in-service training scheme for full-time youth workers. This will facilitate the training of volunteer youth workers so that they will become more effective. Several bodies have applied to the Department for this service. This has been held up and no answer has been received on it so far. It was processed through the NYC in October, 1974, and submitted by Comhairle le Leas Óige, Macra na Tuaithe, The National Federation of Youth Clubs, Macra na Feirme, the Catholic Youth Council and the Young Women's Christian Association.

The Minister said he would need to know the costings. An approximate figure of the cost of employing a full-time director would be, in the first year, £20,000, out of which he would get his salary and administer the work and arrange courses, seminars and so on for youth leaders. Another proposal held up is the scholarships for professional trainees in the Northern Ireland Polytechnic course in youth and community work. In 1973, the Minister gave permission for two people to go there. The NYC proposed a joint monitoring of the relevant course with the Department of Education. The scheme was stopped the following year without any explanation to anyone.

Where are we to get trained full-time Irish youth leaders? We do not have any courses here for them. One of the essential parts of a youth policy is to establish a full-time youth training course. In the meantime I suggest that the Minister would give attention to the possibility of getting a full-time director of training courses from Scotland, England or some other nearby country who would be familiar with the problems involved.

There is another proposition before the Minister's office which has also been held up. It is the pilot scheme for regional youth officers. That was applied for in mid-1973 and nothing has been done. It is proposed to have this done through the local authorities or their subsidiary bodies like the vocational education committees.

They are just a couple of items which have been suggested. Another very important proposal which has been held up is a national award scheme on the lines of the Duke of Edinburgh Award. It could be called the President's Award Scheme. In 1972 the NYC proposed a scheme for young people on those lines. Something like it operates in 40 different countries throughout the world. We still have heard nothing on this. It would not necessarily apply to young people in youth organisations per se. It is for schools, for young workers, for community development associations.

Deputy Tunney on many occasions mentioned that this is something which was progressing but which came to a standstill. I earnestly ask the Minister to see what can be done to get some response on this. The Minister knows that youth leaders are dedicated and completely committed to the work they are doing and they suffer tremendous frustration if nothing appears to be done about their complaints.

In his speech last night the Minister stated:

In parallel on the international front, links have been strengthened with the French Government under the Franco-Irish cultural agreement and rapid development in exchange schemes for youth are taking place. Approaches are also being made to Germany and the United Kingdom with the same object in mind.

First of all, when the Franco-Irish agreement was reached concerning youth in sport, it was for leaders only. A selection committee was to be set up composed of the Department of Education, the National Youth Council, the French Cultural Service and one other organisation here. The committee have not even met yet although I understand the Parliamentary Secretary is in Paris with the Director of the Catholic Youth Council who does very fine work.

As far as the German and British exchange schemes are concerned, they were proposed two years ago by the NYC and there has been no action. The German Embassy as late as last month had heard nothing about it. As far as the exchange agreement with Britain is concerned, up to last Monday there was no initiative on it. I should like the Minister to examine the briefing he has had. The speech he made last week was full of optimism but we find that all he said was happening has not been happening in many instances.

The Minister said last night that in a short time, two years, we had done a massive amount of work yet in the past two and a half years there had not been any constructive contribution put forward by the Opposition. That is not true. I am on record in the House personally as putting forward suggestions for a youth policy. I can give the Minister three suggestions I put to the House:

1. The appointment at local level by statutory organisations of full-time youth officers. These would work in close association with the voluntary organisations in that area. The possible frameworks in which the local youth officer might work are the regional Health Boards or the Vocational Education Committees. This would depend on how local government is to be restructured, and whether one might envisage a central government department of the family, or a unit within the Department of Health with this function.

2. The provision of additional resources to some of the voluntary organisations so that they can attract more young people by developing their programmes and expanding their organisations. To do this they will need full-time development and training officers, so that they can make the maximum use of the commitment of the voluntary leaders.

3. The establishment of a course for full-time youth workers at an existing institution of third level education. There is no such course at present and there are no recognised training facilities for full-time or voluntary youth workers.

As I said at the beginning, there is no question that the development of a youth service will cost money. It does not have to cost all that much. It is more important that they can have a framework from which they can organise themselves, that they can start a partnership between the State and local authorities early on without huge investment of capital. If the development of a youth service will cost money, our failure to provide a youth service will also be likely to cost money. I am on record as having said that young people are energetic and if we cannot find ways of harnessing their energy into at least neutral fields, and if possible into positive fields, it will inevitably be turned into an element that will be destructive to our society. The evidence for this is increased vandalism and violence which we are only too well aware of. The problem is particularly severe in Dublin where there is a greater concentration of population—the stresses, completely new to Ireland, of living in a completely urbanised environment. I also said that the energy which smashes a telephone kiosk must be diverted into an activity which is of value both to the individual and, in the long term, to society as a whole. Another point that I made was that if we were to increase the State's commitment to voluntary youth organisations by 500 per cent, the total figure involved would still be less than £1 million. The resources required in the context of total government expenditure are minimal. The benefit of enabling our young people to mature fully, to develop their faculties, to relate themselves to the society in which they live, hardly needs to be spelled out. Therefore, when the Minister states that we have made no constructive suggestions from this side of the House, I ask him to accept that this is not so. I know that the youth organisations know that this is not so, because they get a copy of every single Dáil debate in which any discussion affecting youth policy is debated. They follow it and are very interested in it.

I am glad our spokesman, Deputy Wyse, put down this motion because it is the first time, other than through Question Time and questions on the Adjournment, that we have been able to debate youth specifically, and it speaks well for Deputy Wyse for having put down this motion.

A national youth policy should be a partnership, as I said, between the State and voluntary organisations. It should be providing a service to enable young people to develop their full potential. A supportive framework is what is being asked for. A national youth policy requires State support to enable training to be given to the voluntary leaders, support of voluntary organisations at national and local level through the VEC; rent of premises and equipment would be some of the requirements. Leaders need video and other equipment. Such equipment could be funded and it would not cost that much money on a regional basis through the VEC or whatever body to which the youth are to be affiliated. Outdoor sports equipment, training materials could be shared among the various youth organisations. Youth organisations are willing to share, because, as the Minister knows, idealism, although not the monopoly of young people, is very high in most young people. Idealism is probably strongest in our teenage years. As you find it hard to fight for what you want, you become disheartened, but when you are between 17 and 21 you become very active but quickly disappointed if you do not get anything through.

There should be links with adult education training and sport. Again, the State must be involved because financial assistance is needed for renting premises and dealing with the problems of urban areas. Take an area like Tallaght where there is a huge population and nothing really there for the young people. We need more community centres. Let me say again that to me youth and community are one and the same thing. It is shortsighted and wrong to talk about youth and the community as two separate entities, because it is only a short space of time until the youth of today are the adults of tomorrow.

Every youth policy must cater for the unattached young people, those who are not in youth clubs. I remember talking to a man who is a famous entertainer, Frankie Vaughan, and who was awarded the OBE for his work for youth. I met him when he was over here and he said: "I am not interested in people who are in youth clubs. They are being looked after. The people who are not in youth clubs need attention." There are so many people who cannot get into youth clubs because there is no accommodation for them. There is a little youth club in my own area which has roughly 300 members. They have to meet on various nights, sharing out the week. The space available to them is very small but they make the best of it. I should like to quote the Minister for Labour who made a profound comment for him. I know the Minister agrees with me. It was such a surprise to me, too. Maybe his surprise is for a different reason.

Mr. R. Burke

When the Deputy said "for him".

Mr. R. Burke

I think we could have done without that.

He mentioned we were developing a lounge bar society. This is true because the only place of amenity and recreation in Ireland today is the pub. I remember that when in a debate I suggested that some civic-minded publicans might allocate a section of their pub where only soft drinks would be served, one Member of the House, who was a publican and who shall be nameless, just laughed. The only place for recreation where people can meet in comfortable surroundings in towns and villages is the pub. We must combat that. It is all very well talking about curbing advertising of drink and so on, but there is nowhere else for them to go in many areas. This is why we need greater recognition of the importance of youth work.

I should like to see the Government allocating something very substantial to this. We have been told about the increases already given to youth work, but we have not been told about the amenity grants being cut back. On the question of finance, £156,000 is the amount that was allocated for this aspect of youth work. The Minister in his speech stated:

I cannot help feeling, however, that some of the claims being made for financial and professional aid of one kind or another do not take adequate cognisance of the measure of our financial resources, and that the examples which are quoted of expenditure of other countries do not show evidence that there is a sufficient understanding of the significance of the figures quoted or of the relative magnitude in the context of the population of the countries concerned.

For the Minister's interest, Scotland allocates £5 million a year. The North of Ireland allocates £3 million a year. I do not think that is comparing like with unlike.

Could I ask the Minister if he would find out what happened to the £22,000 which was voted last year and which still has not been allocated? Has that disappeared? The Comptroller and Auditor General sometime ago made some disquieting remarks about where some of the money in the Minister's Department was being used. Is it being used for the purpose for which it was voted?

Mr. R. Burke

It was prior to my time in office.

It may well be, but maybe the Minister could say where it is being used. There was also £56,000 left over from the 1970 vote. What is intended to be done with this money? I have spoken for almost my 30 minutes, and I should like to end by referring to the Minister's concluding remarks in which he stated:

When this policy on which so much work has been done has been produced it will be a monument to the interest of the Parliamentary Secretary in youth affairs and will guide the destiny of youth policy in this country for the remainder of the century. I would like to commend him in the House for the work which he has done under my direction and to say that the publication of this document eventually will be its own monument to him.

It is very important that it should be a monument. I do not care who does it as long as it is done, but do not let it become his tombstone.

I think the House is pleased to have the opportunity of discussing the problems of youth and of a youth policy, and for that reason we must be glad that the motion has been put down. However, it is unfortunate that the wording of the motion is so negative. I do not think that Deputy Wyse or any member of his party would be entitled to deplore the failure of the Government to produce a comprehensive youth policy when their own party was in office for 16 years and did very little to promote such a policy. I do not want to make this a political contribution and I doubt if anybody else wants to make a political issue out of this debate but I believe that a more generous motion would have been fitting on this occasion.

The Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister for Education set up an advisory panel on youth in August, 1973, and they set out to formulate a national youth policy. Such a policy could not be formulated over-night nor without consultation with the many organisations, voluntary and otherwise involved in youth activities. Personally, I would prefer a sound policy which would indicate short and long term objectives of youth policy, to be formulated and published without undue haste—better have a good policy produced slowly than a bad policy produced quickly. I understand the policy is near completion and, like every other member, I shall welcome its publication.

In a recent publication by the National Youth Council of Ireland Mr. Webb made a long statement in which he said, as reported in the February/ March 1975, Youth Forum:

. . . the youth organisations were grateful for this increased financial support which was far in excess of that provided by previous Governments.

He is discussing the moneys being provided by the present Government. The voluntary youth organisations are receiving £156,150 this year as opposed to £57,050 for the year 1972-73. This year the estimates provide for £390,000 for use in sports organisations. That itself was an 86 per cent increase. Other moneys are being allocated in substantially increased amounts to Macra na Tuaithe. I understand in regard to the problem of youth workers with Comhairle le Leas Óige in Dublin that there are some moves to make their positions permanent which it is hoped will be successful.

We are conscious of the need for a youth policy and look forward to its publication. Such a policy must not try to supplant existing voluntary activities and activities at various levels throughout the country but must be one which, I hope, will offer generous financial and expert aid to voluntary organisations. I should not like to see the State in a take-over bid for youth policy. I would prefer a generous policy of giving grants to various voluntary organisations.

I am a member of the Council of Europe and I would like to put the question of youth policy in European perspective. I refer to a report to the Parliamentary Assembly of the Council of Europe on group participation by young people, document number 3590. In time I hope the Irish organisation will be able to make contact with the European Youth Foundation and the European Youth Centres which are actively and independently involved with the problems of youth activity and in the formulation of youth policies in Europe. We should look to Europe for advice and see what experience they have had in this field.

There is an interesting suggestion in the report that there should be a European charter for youth participation. Such a charter would be very interesting and would give youth a far greater feeling of involvement in society than it now has. It is of the essence of the problem that we involve youth in society that they be seen to participate in it and that adult society does not seem remote or divorced from youth. We must make society attractive for youth; they also have rights and responsibilities of which we must take cognisance. The report discusses what should be in this chapter and says, in paragraph 26:

Whatever the form and application of this "charter", there are certain principles which I believe are fundamental and ought to be borne in mind when the text is drawn up; here are some of them: giving priority to participation on a joint basis; giving young people access to the mass media; giving aid on special terms to youth organisations with democratic structures; replacing the officially used terms "on behalf of" and "for" young people by "with" and "by" young people; taking care not to give young people a status which might arouse hostility in other "strata" of society.

Those remarks are, at least, interesting. Other points in the report include the role that can and must be played by communication media. This is something that has not been fully discussed in the House. It involves giving young people time in the mass media, allowing them to use the media to ensure that a constant flow of information goes from young people up to adults. This will allow young people to voice their feelings and opinions. I become enthusiastic when I see young people arguing about civil rights, the rights of poor people, of under-privileged or under-educated people, taking up causes. It is up to us here to ensure that they are allowed a voice when it comes to matters of national, regional and local importance. If this is to be their country in a few years and if they will be at the helm, they have a right to be heard.

Another point made in the report concerned giving young people access to information media and giving public financial assistance to information centres for youth managed by young people themselves. This is a possible approach to which we should give serious consideration. Why should young people not have access to information centres? Why not allow them to tackle their own problems? Obviously, they would have to seek advice from and work with older people but it would give them greater independence and a greater involvement in the society in which they live. Those two suggestions are worthwhile processing and I would hope that they might lead to a wider public debate on this matter.

There are a few problems I should like to deal with. With regard to the direction of the financial assistance, which obviously must be forthcoming, there might be a danger of unnecessarily institutionalising the flow of financial assistance from the Government down through a rigid system. That might be a mistake and I would see a great need for flexibility. I should imagine that one of the main reasons for the delay, if there has been any delay—and I do not think there has—or for the slowness in producing a report would be the need to avoid a rigid structure of channeling finance and to ensure that a flexible system might emerge which would not give rise to any problems year in and year out. It is a difficult problem because there are so many diverse organisations, voluntary organisations, clubs, movements such as the scout and the guide movements are all so involved and these organisations change and take on a different format from one year to the next, and whatever system is adopted must be flexible enough to take account of changing circumstances within any society.

I should like to see the National Youth Council of Ireland being expanded on a very democratic and open basis, and to see regional committees and local committees of the National Youth Council which would give youth strength in numbers and ability to put forward their policies and feelings in relation to a number of matters, which to them, and I should think to society, are vitally important.

I am not at all happy with the court treatment of young offenders and I think it is a system which urgently needs to be changed. In relation to the young people, I do not think the present court system is one that will tackle the problem of the young offender. We need a more sophisticated system. The system in Scotland is far more flexible and the American system should be studied because, while I am not always in favour of things American, we can at least learn from their mistakes. We need a different type of court system, a different type of dealing with young offenders, a system with more understanding in many cases of the social, educational and cultural problems that confront many underprivileged children. We need perhaps a different approach, a more humane and generous approach, and more expert staff to deal with these problems. I do not think that a six months detention will necessarily be a deterrent to further offences. I do not think it will at that age and the system needs to be tackled differently and immediately. I am aware of the good work being done by the liaison officers in the Garda Síochána and I am well aware of a number of people actively involved in trying to help young offenders but I do not think it is being done on an adequate basis. There is a need for a more sophisticated and better equipped approach to the problem from the Government side.

The whole question of youth policy must be seen in association with what is being done in the schools because the schools are the most organised places for children, who are there every day up to the age of 15 and in many cases the ages of 17 or 18. The school curriculum to me is very important and I am not happy that the present school system is sufficiently pliable and wide in scope to allow of a rounded education for our young people. I feel that it is too academically oriented and there is a need to expand on the physical education and games aspect in schools, a need to expand the civics courses in schools to give young people a greater understanding of how society runs and functions and what structures there are in it.

There should be a change from a system of academic education to one of allowing the system to be used to the best advantage by the people in the schools to give them a rounded personality and wide interests which will not die when that person leaves school, an interest in the living education. This is important and I do not think we have tackled it sufficiently in our education system. We are too academic. Academic education is good for certain young people who are academically minded but many people are not academically minded in the narrow sense. They will be going into a trade or an office and they want, deserve and are entitled to an education which will allow them an on-going education process after school is finished, an on-going interest in things around them. Our schools curriculum should change direction in this respect.

I should also like to see the National Youth Council at local level co-ordinating recreational sports activities for young people. There is a great need to inform young people of the many activities available to them, and I often feel that young people go into public houses because they are not fully informed of the many other activities they could easily take up. Again this stems from lack of information flowing from the schools. There is a need for coordination and the dissemination of information to young people. One can only be encouraged by the activities of young people in involving themselves in the problems facing old people. There are many people in the community who are helping aged people and this again must be encouraged. There are some great voluntary organisations in every village, town and city in Ireland who do not receive praise, who are practically ignored, but the House and the country owe so much to these people who take care of old and handicapped people and of the young offender. These are people who spend their time in seeing that the community in which they live is helped in every way possible. We indeed owe a great debt of gratitude to them.

There is also a great need for the financing of voluntary organisations to enable them to provide career guidance services, both inside and outside schools, a following service of career guidance. Many people want to change their careers and they should have information.

We have pre-marriage courses and, therefore, we should provide a service for dealing with the legal problems many young people have. In many cases they are reluctant to go to a solicitor because they do not want to spend the money or do not have the money. This would be an excellent field for a voluntary organisation to become involved in.

These advice bureaux could be run by voluntary organisations and staffed by young people, under the direction of adults. These voluntary services should be helped directly by the State. While I appreciate the necessity for institutionalising State aid, I should like to emphasise that such channels that do come about must be flexible. The best way of ensuring flexibility is to give sufficient power to local bodies to work locally rather than giving a blanket grant to national bodies. Every case must be treated on its merits.

The amenity grant scheme operated by local authorities was mentioned and it is unfortunate that this scheme is not operating now. I look forward to its re-activation. The Waterford City Council voted moneys for three community centres, one in each ward, which is the most equitable way of using scarce resources. These centres, working under the aegis of parish councils, should be flexible so as to be in a position to take in as many youth organisations and bodies as possible. We cannot afford to give money to the boy scouts, the girl guides and to the community centres and for this reason there must be a rationalisation of the use of such halls to ensure that the local people can benefit from them.

There are so many youth organisations that it will be difficult to deal with them all equitably. The best approach would be to ensure that there will be local committees to deal with the voluntary organisations. I believe this will emerge from the policy document. While this new policy will be a national one it must be centred at local level. The channels must take into account the local problems, local structure and local organisation. Otherwise we will have a lot of petty jealousies and in-fighting between the various organisations as to which of them should get a grant. This will be a difficult job but I hope the organisations will be centred locally and will be such as to allow a lot of flexibility.

The Minister's contribution last night was a disastrous one. He denied young people their hope of an early announcement of a comprehensive youth policy. I am sorry to have to say that but it was the reaction today. I am not making politics out of this because we are talking about young people.

I got back the contrary reaction.

I am entitled to tell the House of the reactions I received. Today I was requested to ask the Government, and the Minister, if there is such a policy.

The Deputy is playing politics now.

It is only fair to give reaction and that is what I have done. The purpose of this motion was to try to get the Government to realise the importance of announcing a comprehensive policy for youth and I expected the Minister would have availed of the opportunity to give the young people an assurance that the Government have such a policy. We wanted the Government to dispel the anxiety existing in youth councils and youth organisations.

If there is such a policy and if it is about to be finalised that policy should be submitted to the National Youth Council and other youth councils for their observations before a final decision is made. As a matter of courtesy this should be done. The people involved in youth organisations have given of their time and effort promoting and organising youth activities. They have a right to know the thinking of the Government and the Minister where the youth are concerned. The Minister should seek the views of these councils. Then the young people would know the Government are serious about implementing a comprehensive youth policy.

We are serious and we have such a policy, which is more than the Opposition party ever did when in Government.

The Deputy's attitude is a good example of what the lack of a youth policy and leadership can do. The Deputy's depraved attitude is a good example of a lack of guidance.

The time available to the Deputy in possession is limited and he should be allowed utilise it without interruption.

I agree with a lot Deputy Collins said about involvement in community activity. However, we have heard during the course of this debate that we are depending mainly on voluntary organisations to do the work. These organisations are the foundation but they need professional support. We should not expect people to work from early morning to late at night on youth activity or any other service. We must have specialised people engineering all the activities of a youth council. If the Government are prevented from introducing a comprehensive youth policy now because of the state of the economy and it is the intention of the Minister to introduce it piecemeal he should let us know his priorities. One of the priorities is the appointment of a full-time professional person who will be responsible for organising and training the voluntary youth leaders. The National Youth Council and those who specialise in youth work will agree with me that this is a very important matter.

Deputy Briscoe mentioned a number of matters that showed the lack of communication that exists between the Department of Education and the various youth bodies. I have always maintained that a comprehensive youth policy must be a shared responsibility by the Government and the youth groups. There is no point in using those groups in an advisory capacity and asking for their views if they are not consulted when final decisions are made. The Minister should look at the large file of correspondence from the National Youth Council to his Department which has not received replies.

As I pointed out last night, we are not using political gimmicks. I put down this motion to prevent any further disruption in the structure of the National Youth Council. I know a number of projects had to be suspended pending the announcement by the Government of a youth policy. In my contribution last night I tried to impress on the Minister the three areas of importance, namely, training facilities, finance and buildings. The young people are prepared to play their part in the community but they must have some place where they can meet, where advice can be given to them, where there are indoor recreational facilities and where they can organise themselves. Fianna Fáil have certain ideas as to how this could be financed——

Have Fianna Fáil any new ideas?

I did not hear any suggestions from the Government side other than the hope that something may be done in the future.

Fianna Fáil had 16 years to do something.

If this is hurting the Deputies opposite I am sorry but I am only telling the truth. It is only right that local authorities should be asked to put a levy on the rates to help in the matter of finance. It has been done in Cork and in Dublin. The money should be spent locally in promoting youth work. I do not think ratepayers would refuse to make contributions because in a sense they would be investing in their children and in the future.

We must be realistic. There is no point in always pleading for voluntary contributions. The people in the voluntary organisations are giving much time and effort but they need the professionals to organise, promote and train youth leaders. If it does not start there the Government can fold up whatever ideas they may have of a comprehensive youth policy. Last night the Minister placed much emphasis on that point and I agreed with what he said. All of us are aware of the work of voluntary groups but they cannot survive without the support of social workers and trained youth leaders.

We are using youth organisations in an advisory capacity but I would go a step further. They should have a representative who will be involved in the preparation of a youth policy. The officials in the Department cannot be considered to have all the experience so far as youth development is concerned. There should be somebody who would be directly responsible for this. I do not think even the Parliamentary Secretary is directly responsible for youth activities. It is passed from one to another and there is no one specialising in this very important work. One official deals with the matter today and another one will deal with it tomorrow. I am sorry for the Parliamentary Secretary who has to work under that kind of a strain. The Minister would be well advised to consider this matter and to make sure that one person is responsible for this area, who will reply to the many communications sent by the various youth organisations. It has been said that Fianna Fáil have done little or nothing about this matter but that is not true. We have tabled a number of questions——

That is not a policy.

If the Deputy would put us on the Government benches we would very soon produce a policy.

The Deputy did not know what the National Youth Council was.

Fianna Fáil did nothing about this matter for 16 years and I have no reason to believe they would do anything if they had another day.

The Deputy has his own youth problems in his constituency.

I would ask the Minister to make a statement soon on this matter to demonstrate to the youth organisations throughout the country that the Government have a policy. I strongly recommend that he would submit that policy to those who are promoting youth work so that they might give their views and recommendations before a final decision is made. Only then will the young people know the Government are serious about their welfare. My main reason for putting down the motion was that someone would convey to the young people that the Government have a comprehensive youth policy. If they have not such a policy they should state this frankly and then the National Youth Council will have to consider how best they can organise and promote the valuable work they are doing.

Question put.
The Dáil divided: Tá, 55; Níl, 62.

  • Allen, Lorcan.
  • Andrews, David.
  • Barrett, Sylvester.
  • Brady, Philip A.
  • Browne, Seán.
  • Brugha, Ruairí.
  • Burke, Raphael P.
  • Calleary, Seán.
  • Carter, Frank.
  • Colley, George.
  • Collins, Gerard.
  • Connolly, Gerard.
  • Crinion, Brendan.
  • Cronin, Jerry.
  • Cunningham, Liam.
  • Daly, Brendan.
  • Davern, Noel.
  • de Valera, Vivion.
  • Dowling, Joe.
  • Fahey, Jackie.
  • Farrell, Joseph.
  • Faulkner, Pádraig.
  • Fitzgerald, Gene.
  • Fitzpatrick, Tom (Dublin Central).
  • Flanagan, Seán.
  • French, Seán.
  • Gallagher, Denis.
  • Geoghegan-Quinn, Máire.
  • Brennan, Joseph.
  • Breslin, Cormac.
  • Briscoe, Ben.
  • Brosnan, Seán.
  • Gibbons, Hugh.
  • Gogan, Richard P.
  • Healy, Augustine A.
  • Hussey, Thomas.
  • Kenneally, William.
  • Lalor, Patrick J.
  • Leonard, James.
  • Loughnane, William.
  • Lynch, Jack.
  • McEllistrim, Thomas.
  • MacSharry, Ray.
  • Meaney, Tom.
  • Molloy, Robert.
  • Moore, Seán.
  • Murphy, Ciarán.
  • O'Connor, Timothy.
  • O'Leary, John.
  • O'Malley, Desmond.
  • Power, Patrick.
  • Smith, Patrick.
  • Timmons, Eugene.
  • Walsh, Seán.
  • Wyse, Pearse.

Níl

  • Barry, Peter.
  • Barry, Richard.
  • Begley, Michael.
  • Belton, Luke.
  • Belton, Paddy.
  • Bermingham, Joseph.
  • Burke, Dick.
  • Burke, Joan T.
  • Burke, Liam.
  • Byrne, Hugh.
  • Cluskey, Frank.
  • Collins, Edward.
  • Conlan, John F.
  • Coogan, Fintan.
  • Cooney, Patrick M.
  • Corish, Brendan.
  • Costello, Declan.
  • Coughlan, Stephen.
  • Creed, Donal.
  • Crotty, Kieran.
  • Cruise-O'Brien, Conor.
  • Desmond, Barry.
  • Desmond, Eileen.
  • Dockrell, Henry P.
  • Dockrell, Maurice.
  • Donegan, Patrick S.
  • Dunne, Thomas.
  • Enright, Thomas.
  • Esmonde, John G.
  • Finn, Martin.
  • Fitzpatrick, Tom (Cavan).
  • Flanagan, Oliver J.
  • Gilhawley, Eugene.
  • Governey, Desmond.
  • Griffin, Brendan.
  • Harte, Patrick D.
  • Hegarty, Patrick.
  • Hogan O'Higgins, Brigid.
  • Keating, Justin.
  • Kelly, John.
  • Kenny, Henry.
  • Kyne, Thomas A.
  • L'Estrange, Gerald.
  • Lynch, Gerald.
  • McDonald, Charles B.
  • McLaughlin, Joseph.
  • Malone, Patrick.
  • Murphy, Michael P.
  • O'Brien, Fergus.
  • O'Connell, John.
  • O'Donnell, Tom.
  • O'Sullivan, John L.
  • Pattison, Seamus.
  • Reynolds, Patrick J.
  • Ryan, John J.
  • Ryan, Richie.
  • Spring, Dan.
  • Staunton, Myles.
  • Taylor, Frank.
  • Timmins, Godfrey.
  • Toal, Brendan.
  • White, James.
Tellers: Tá, Deputies Lalor and Browne; Níl, Deputies Kelly and B. Desmond.
Question declared lost.
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