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Dáil Éireann debate -
Friday, 13 Jun 1975

Vol. 282 No. 3

Food Aid Convention: Motion.

I move:

That Dáil Éireann approves the Protocol for the Extension of the Food Aid Convention, 1971 and the Protocol for the Further Extension of the Food Aid Convention, 1971, which have been laid before the Dáil.

At the United Nations Wheat Conference which was held in 1971 it was agreed that the International Wheat Agreement (1971) should consist of two separate legal instruments: (a) the Wheat Trade Convention (1971) and (b) the Food Aid Convention (1971).

Under the terms of Article 4 (2) of the Treaty of Accession to the European Communities Ireland was obliged to accede to the Food Aid Convention because the original member States and the European Economic Community as such were parties to it. We did so in June, 1973.

Are there no copies of the script available?

Because of some technical hitch, copies have not arrived. I apologise for this but the spokesman is familiar with the contents of the script.

The objective of the Food Aid Convention is to carry out a food aid programme in cereals, mainly wheat, for the benefit of developing countries. The countries party to this convention are: Argentina, Australia, Canada, the European Economic Community, Finland, Japan, Sweden, Switzerland and the United States of America. Under the convention of the Community have undertaken to supply 1,287,000 tonnes of cereals as their minimum annual contribution in the form of wheat, coarse grains or derivative products suitable for human consumption. This contribution is discharged partly by the Community from their own resources and partly by the member states in accordance with a fixed scale. Ireland's percentage share is .53 per cent of that part discharged by the member states.

As was recognised by the World Food Conference held in Rome in November, 1974, the importance of the Food Aid Convention in providing a programme in cereals to developing countries is more pronounced than ever before. Until such time as agriculture in the developing countries can be developed to a stage of selfsufficiency, programmes of food aid will be of major importance in the field of development assistance. In the past few years cereal production in the developing countries has fallen well behind requirements due to a combination of natural disasters, international economic dislocation and inadequate agricultural development. The world in 1975 is threatened by widespread famine in Asia and Africa where consumption is already below minimum standards and reserves of food grain are low.

It would be incorrect to regard food aid as simply an "emergency" form of assistance and to contrast it with, say, capital grants for investment in productive infrastructure. By contributing to an increase in the nutritional level of the working population food aid represents a capital investment in the human resources needed to implement development programmes.

The Food Aid Convention, 1971, was established for a period of three years which expired on 30th June, 1974. Before that date it had been agreed by the Food Aid Committee, which is the organ of the International Wheat Agreement which administers the Food Aid Convention, that the convention should be extended by protocol for one year up to 30th June, 1975.

The Council of Ministers of the Community subsequently agreed to this extension but were unable to take their decision in sufficient time to allow all the member States to arrange for the deposit of full instruments of accession. It was accordingly decided that, as provided for in the protocol, the Community would deposit a Declaration of Provisional Application of the Protocol for the Extension of the Food Aid Convention. The Government deposited a similar declaration on behalf of Ireland on 17th June, 1974.

It has now been agreed by the Council of Ministers that it would be desirable to extend the Community's participation in the convention for another year by acceding to the Protocol for the Further Extension of the Food Aid Convention. It has been agreed that, as some member States will again not be in a position to arrange for the deposit of full instruments of accession prior to the deadline of 18th June, the Community as such will deposit a Declaration of Provisional Application of the Protocol. Given the approval of Dáil Éireann, the Government propose to deposit a Declaration of Provisional Application of the Protocol on behalf of Ireland. Accordingly I ask the Dáil to approve the motion. I should like to express appreciation for the willingness of the Opposition to take these two matters together. Their subject matter is related.

In regard to Vote 47 — International Co-Operation — I move:

That a supplementary sum not exceeding £200,000 be granted to defray the charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of December, 1975, for contributions to International Organisations and for Official Development Assistance, including a grant-in-aid.

At its 6th Special Session in April-May, 1974 the General Assembly of the United Nations adopted, by consensus, a programme of action on the establishment of a new international economic order including in particular a special programme which had as one of its main components an emergency operation for the developing countries most seriously affected by the economic crisis caused by the rise in the price of oil and other basic raw materials.

In June, 1974, in response to the United Nations Secretary-General's appeal in setting up the emergency operation, the Council of Ministers of the Community decided to contribute a sum of up to $500 million or ? of the total, whichever would be the lesser, on condition that the other industrialised countries and the petroleum exporting countries would contribute their share and that suitable arrangements for disbursement would be developed, together with satisfactory criteria of eligibility for aid.

Subsequently, in October, 1974, the Council decided to contribute a first instalment of $150 million to the operation, $30 million of which was lodged to the Secretary-General's special account and the balance of $120 million disbursed bilaterally by the Community.

Following a further review of the emergency operation in January, 1975, the Council decided that a second instalment of $100 million should be contributed from Community funds; and that $42 million in additional Community food aid, together with the bilateral contributions of individual member states, should also be included as part of the Community's overall contribution.

On a point of order, are we dealing with the Supplementary Estimate? Has it been moved.

Yes. I moved it.

I thought it was necessary for a Minister to move a financial provision?

I understand that is the case with main Estimates but not with Supplementary Estimates.

Perhaps the Chair would inform the House on the matter?

The motion may be moved by a Parliamentary Secretary but the motion for the Estimate itself must be moved by a Minister. This latter may happen at the end.

That seems to be a departure from former procedure.

Perhaps I might be allowed to intervene? The Parliamentary Secretary is correct in what he has said but in order to save the time of the House I will move it now.

The motion may be moved at the end.

Are we to take it that the matter is in order now?

It was in order. The Chair was perfectly correct but I wanted to save the time of the House.

I may have misunderstood the advice I received. I was under the impression that I could move a Supplementary Estimate. In fact, I moved one yesterday or the day before.

As other member States have made substantial bilateral contributions to the emergency operation the Government consider that it is appropriate that Ireland should make a bilateral contribution of £200,000 which is the approximate equivalent of the additional amount which we would have been obliged to contribute through the Community, had the Community's original pledge of $500 million been met in full from Community funds.

This course of action which is in full compliance with the spirit of the Council decision taken last January, provides a concrete expression of the Government's continuing concern at the truly appalling difficulties afflicting those developing countries most seriously affected by the economic crisis.

The Government intend that the proposed contribution should be made in the form of a donation of Irish beef to the world food programme for use under its food aid programmes for the benefit of the most seriously affected countries.

On a point of order, before our spokesman speaks on this matter, as Whip on behalf of the Opposition Party I must protest once again—for the fourth time this year— that Estimates have been introduced without the script being circulated. I protested about this matter yesterday in relation to another matter. It is most unfair.

I appreciate what the Deputy has said but he will realise I am in difficulties which I cannot explain now. I have no opportunity of getting an explanation at the moment. I apologise for the absence of scripts. I would be quite prepared to lend my script to Deputy O'Kennedy.

I had an opportunity yesterday of having a quick look at the two introductory speeches the Parliamentary Secretary has made this morning. As the Parliamentary Secretary appreciates, I looked at the speeches quickly and on the understanding, which was not conveyed verbally, that I would have a copy of the script this morning. There are figures involved and certain arguments have been raised which I assumed I would have an opportunity of checking this morning.

I should like to make it clear, lest there be any misunderstanding, that I accept the facility the Parliamentary Secretary gave me as an earnest of his anxiety to be helpful. Nonetheless he will appreciate that the very rushed circumstances in which I had a quick and casual look at the scripts in his office, when many other matters were being dealt with, did not enable me to form the detailed view I would have had the scripts been made available.

I must also point out that I am not the only one concerned; the House is also concerned. I hope this matter will be cleared up satisfactorily. Members of the House who are concerned about a programme for the developing countries are certainly anxious to have an informed view that will arouse an equally informed reaction from the public. If these two motions have no other function but to enable us once more to contribute to the increasing awareness of the public regarding the need for a continuous and consistent programme of development aid on a bilateral basis, and on a multilateral basis through the various associations of which we are members, they will have served an important purpose. It is important that Members of this House have an opportunity of knowing what the two motions are about——

I hesitate to interrupt the Deputy but in case this situation is misunderstood outside the House I must emphasise that what we are talking about here — even though I am not supposed to say so — is some hitch in the official mechanism. I take responsibility for it but it is nothing more sinister than that.

I must tell the Parliamentary Secretary that even if the scripts had been available I would still make this point. The Parliamentary Secretary will be aware of the fact that when we last discussed the Third and Fourth Reports of the EEC I devoted a considerable part of my contribution to the Community's responsibility in this area and to the discharge of that responsibility. I said it was vitally important that the public concern which is evident in this country would be matched by a Government contribution, and matched by the party policies on all sides of the House. At the time I anticipated the voluntary contributions from this country, particularly through the Trócaire campaign, would increase substantially this year and events have proved me right. I am not saying I have any gift of prescience, I am not laying claim to any particular foreknowledge of what was to happen. However, it was evident from the level of awareness throughout the country that this would happen.

When we consider that the organisers and administrators of Trócaire have decided that 20 per cent of the total contribution in this and in other years will be set aside towards launching and continuing a programme of educating the public in our responsibilities to the developing world. You can see now, a Cheann Comhairle, how vitally important it is that this House should use every opportunity to help in that educational programme. One of the ways of helping, ineffective or inadequate though it may be, is by supporting the programme clearly and unequivocally on a motion of this kind and giving the reasons why we do so, encouraging the Government where they are meeting these commitments and, to a certain extent, criticising, though not on a party political basis, the Government where they are not.

It is vitally important that the publicity — I am not saying this is a major debate — which normally attaches to debates here should be part of this overall educational programme. We, the representatives of those people who so freely contribute on a voluntary basis, should be seen on a national organised level to match their commitment on a national voluntary level. If, for no other reason than that, these two motions are of vital importance. I would have made this point whether or not the script had been made available and I think the Parliamentary Secretary can now begin to appreciate why I think it is unfortunate that we do not have the script, though I am not making any strong criticism of the circumstances involved. That is No. 1.

No. 2, if one looks at the recent publications in relation to collections on a voluntary basis, one finds a very striking fact. Trócaire receipts from the nationwide collection this year jumped from £260,000 — I anticipated they would increase but not to the figure they actually reached — to £620,000 this year, an increase of £360,000, or almost 150 per cent. That is an extraordinary indication of the commitment of the Irish people, of their willingness to contribute, their awareness of the need that exists throughout the world and of our obligations to these developing countries. If anyone wanted a better indication of what the public mind is, they could not get it more effectively. We hear suggestions of having referenda on matters, which I do not think are of such major significance, to test the public mind. We hear suggestions of having closer contact with the public so that politicians can know how far they can lead the public in various directions but this is a case of how far we can follow the enthusiasm and commitment of the public. We have certainly here a very clear indication of that commitment. And this is the commitment at a time when we all know there are pressing problems— inflation, rising prices and unemployment. I am merely stating the facts. Unemployment is considerably higher than it was last year. There are also other factors which have made the economic condition more critical this year as compared with last year. Allowing for all that, we see this huge increase. It is, indeed, striking.

Another striking fact is that, if we look at an area which is not within our immediate jurisdiction but which is an area with which we have a very close association, the North of Ireland, particularly Derry, and Derry, not because it is a traditional area of Nationalist support but because of the problems of unemployment and social deprivation, which we all recognise as having existed there over a considerable period, problems to a certain extent mirrored in parts of our own community here, we find that the contribution from Derry was £60,000, one-tenth that of the whole country, and that from an area which, by any standards, is certainly the most deprived, and an area which has suffered more by all the criteria of human suffering, economic deprivation, death, destruction and so on, than any other part of the country.

There is a second message from that. Those in need are those who recognise even greater need. Those who suffer recognise even greater suffering. Sometimes those of us who are most comfortable and secure are less conscious of the need and the suffering of others, particularly when we cannot see those who suffer and those who are in need. When one sees a response like that from people who are comparatively deprived it is a very encouraging indication of the fact that there is this awareness within our community, if I may be so presumptuous as to include the good people of Derry in it; I do not say this in any constitutional sense.

I prefaced my remarks by referring to that because, lest I be misunderstood, I want to say that I am not taking any party position on this. I do not think any party should take any special credit for honouring the commitment to the public and that is what is involved. I recognise, and I have said this before, that the Minister and his Parliamentary Secretary have certainly made a very real improvement in this area. Having said that, I must also point out, and it is a fact, that we are not matching the commitment we gave in this area last year, perhaps, for reasons that are understandable, one being the economic stringency of the moment. If the budgetary condition or balance of payments problem in any country is to be the criteria determining how much is available for aid to developing countries, these countries can look forward to a very bleak future indeed.

The Government have committed themselves to increasing our contribution from .1 per cent of GNP to .35 per cent by 1979. If the Government were to act on that commitment given last year, then the Government's contribution this year should be £2.5 million more than it actually is. If I have any one criticism to make of the Minister in this connection it is that we have failed to match that commitment. On a radio programme in which I had a very brief discussion with the Minister sometime after the first meeting of the Council of Ministers in Dublin — I was invited to discuss development aid, though that was not the subject of discussion at the meeting of the Ministers and I have had no opportunity of taking issue with the Minister since — he said that evening that there was no cut back this year and that we were on target. He seemed unduly sensitive when I suggested we were. I do not believe anybody else but the Minister would suggest we are on target. The independent people, who are concerned, have stated we are £2.5 million short of our target. That was prior to the recent confirmation of the awareness of the Irish people.

I want to put it on record, since this matter has come up in the House, that we stand in the position that there should be a consistent allocation from the national Exchequer every year to meet this commitment, irrespective of what the budgetary situation may be at the time. Everybody must know that if this does not happen education, health, transport and power and all the others will be clamouring for their allocation but the one that has the least pressing support will be this particular area because it is farthest from us in terms of its geographical remoteness. What has happened this year could happen again. It could even happen with a Fianna Fáil Government unless on an all-party basis we commit ourselves to reaching at least that commitment, which is only one of up to .35 per cent, half of the commitment established by the United Nations for the same period, which is .7 per cent of our GNP.

We are falling short of our commitment this year by £2.5 million so we are falling short of half of what the UN recommendation is. That does not measure up to the awareness and concern the Irish people have for this problem. I want to tell the Government that they can be assured of the support and sympathy of this side of the House for every effort they make to help this nation discharge its obligations here. This is not on the basis of charity nor is it any humanitarian response on our part but on the basis of our obligations in justice and as part of the international community.

The Parliamentary Secretary in the course of his speech this morning said:

This course of action which is in full compliance with the spirit of the Council decision taken last January, provides a concrete expression of the Government's continuing concern at the truly appalling difficulties conflicting those developing countries most seriously affected by the economic crisis.

We are not doing what we would normally do on a Supplementary Estimate, that is, voting extra money. I am not saying this with any intention of misrepresentation, but to imply that this is purely a procedural vote this morning, that this is an expression of the Government's continuing concern at the truly appalling difficulties, is a little less than being frank. It is possible that somebody might go away from the House this morning believing the Government were actually voting an extra £200,000 when they are not. They are allocating this money to a specific fund and relieving us from the obligation of contributing the same amount to another fund. Is that not the position?

I made it clear that this represents something we were obliged to do.

Is the £200,000 not already included in the Estimate already voted?

No. There has not been an Estimate this year.

Is the figure of £200,000 not included in the Estimate for International Co-operation?

It is an unusual sequence.

Is it not included in the book of Estimates?

Yes. I did not think I was deceiving anybody.

I hope not. It does not provide a concrete expression of the Government's continuing concern?

What does not?

This money was already committed when the Estimate was prepared.

I agree with everything Deputy O'Kennedy says about this, but it is unreal to say that the thing is anything else but a concrete expression of the Government's concern.

We like those expressions. As public figures we are used to gilding the lily in that form. We say it in relation to many things. In relation to something as vitally important as this we should not express ourselves in that form unless we are contributing something extra over and above what we already have committed ourselves to.

I will get the next speech phrased more modestly.

There is the likelihood that we can persuade ourselves and also the public we represent that we are doing a satisfactory job in this when in fact we are not measuring up to the extent we should. There are a few other aspects of this I would like to refer to in connection with the Food Aid Convention and the Estimate for International Co-operation. The European Community, through whom the Food Aid Convention programme is operated from our point of view, have not so far been able to operate a consistent and continuous policy in that the food-aid programme is a surplus food programme. This may be desirable in relation to the economies of the European Community but if there is a fluctuation of stocks of agricultural produce in the European Community and if, as a result of that, their contributions to the food-aid programme are in certain cereals these may not be the foods which are most needed in the developing countries. If a programme is being worked from the surplus food available within any country or community obviously that State is not tailoring the programme to the needs of the developing countries; one is fashioning that programme according to the surplus of the countries making the contribution.

That is an area that all the developing countries, particularly the EEC, must pay special attention to. The protein value of certain cereals, particularly on the occasion of major disasters due to war, civil strife or natural disasters, is vitally important. It is important that the high protein foods such as meat, butter and certain cereals are made available in such instances. It is equally important that stocks of these are laid aside in each of the countries, either for immediate assistance on a bilateral basis or, through the European Community, on a multi-lateral basis, to meet the inevitable catastrophies that will arise in many of these countries. The stocks should be built up for immediate implementation. That is something everybody involved in the programme of co-operation with the developing countries was concerned about because co-operation is what it is in the heel of the hunt.

Another aspect is that the European Community is committed in connection with the emergency operations of the United Nations in respect of which this £200,000 is being voted this morning to matching the commitments of contributions from other industrialised countries. For instance, on 25th June, 1974, the Council of the Community authorised the President of the Council to write to the Secretary General of the UN reaffirming the Community's readiness to make a substantial contribution to the exceptional international action in favour of those developing countries hardest hit by the economic crisis. The letter indicated that, provided that the other countries which had been approached contributed their share — this referred to America, Canada, Japan and the other highly industrialised countries — the Community intended to contribute up to one-sixth but no more than $500 million of the total cost of the emergency operation.

I do not think that is an indication of the approach the Community, or this nation, should have to our obligations to the developing world. It cannot be conditional on the commitment of America, Canada or other countries with whom we are not directly associated in this international association, the EEC. Our obligations as a nation cannot be conditional on some other country discharging their obligation. I would have thought that the less they faced up to their obligations the greater the onus on us to increase our contributions. That is an indication of the need for the Community, which has made significant strides in this direction, not least of all in the Lomé Convention. In this regard I am glad to acknowledge that our own Minister had the honour to preside over the ratification of this Convention. What he said, and the manner in which he conducted the negotiations on behalf of the Community with those countries, gave an increased impetus to the Community programme in this area. I should like to put that on record.

However, there is still a need that the Community cannot simply discharge their obligations in relation to whether or not other nations discharge theirs. Certainly, there must be a continuous and consistent programme which will ensure that these developing nations will receive to the fullest extent co-operation, advice, finance and food in a consistent and positive programme. The whole crunch is the fact that this is not just a giving by A to B or of the problems of A being totally divorced from B. If Ireland is associated with some assistance to undeveloped countries in Africa we are not any more totally divorced from this. The question is one of justice, of political condition in these countries. The whole question involves us one way or another. There are so many areas in which we can in a consistent way give consistent help in the level of political co-operation, personnel assistance, technical advice and development in the form of industry or otherwise. We could also give help in the level of disaster relief where it arises. Above all else, we can give help in the level of rejection of the principles of any country that will deprive people within their confines of their just rights and their basic rights as human beings. This, for instance, would apply wherever anyone would see repressive regimes in operation, whether it is in South Africa or Rhodesia. We must be as concerned where injustice emerges as we are for the hunger, starvation and deprivation of life, liberty or basic rights.

We must show ourselves to be concerned so that all these nations will see that we are showing an awareness of their problems, their rights and their potential as great nations. It is not just in a food-aid programme alone that one discharges these obligations. The Government have an obligation to devote a considerable amount of time and study to how we can better implement our commitments in these areas. It has been suggested to the Government, by a spokesman on behalf of the Irish Commission for Justice and Peace— a very experienced spokesman in this area — that we should have an agency for development co-operation at two levels. The suggestion is that we should have a national council for development co-operation as well as a development-aid agency, development-aid being the agency through which one will make the immediate pressing contributions in the event of disasters arising and also the agency through which we would make our contributions to the UN or the EEC. The suggestion of establishing a council for development is a different matter because I believe the suggestion was that it should be almost a semi-State body which would establish here a new element within our Government planning. This information is public. It is suggested that every Department have what is called a development desk whereby the best brains and the best experience such as the experience gained in the Shannon Airport area — the personnel there have certainly had the experience of bringing that area from a deprived undeveloped area to a thriving industrial and development area generally— could be made available to such a council and through the council to the developing countries to initiate and guide appropriate development programmes. It is only by such a commitment that we can show ourselves to be constantly not just aware of but determined to meet our obligations.

I am quite sure the Irish people will support such a programme of development — obviously the details of these discussions have not been worked out; I am simply supporting the idea in principle — which will enable the Government and the Opposition to discharge our responsibilities in a consistent and positive fashion. Even if it were only for the selfish reason of saving our own hides in the western world, we would be doing it in any event.

These nations have suffered for too long and some of them are showing the signs of impatience, and they can hardly be blamed. If we did not show this awareness, some of them might react against us in a way that would shock us into realising the terrible frustrations which they have suffered. We have seem some evidence of urban destruction and guerrilla attacks on some of our cities — and here in Ireland we are not in a good position to talk about the problems of other nations — but we sometimes dismiss these attacks as being just the actions of extremists of one form or another. Maybe they are, but perhaps these extremists, whether they be from the Middle East, Africa or anywhere else, are bred from the conditions and the poverty which exist in these areas. Until such time as the civilised world recognises the existence of this poverty and depression and work together to solve it, we may not be as secure and safe in our cities and homes as we would wish to be.

There is always the danger that those of us who express views on this question would be seen as almost preaching, which is no part of our function here. If we could reach an agreement together to discharge our commitments, we would not have to remind ourselves from time to time of this need, and I would not have to suggest that the Government are falling behind, thereby possibly implying that I or my party have a greater sense of this obligation than the Government have. This should not happen.

The fact that we must pass these two motions this morning enables us to reaffirm our commitment. I am glad it also enables us to acknowledge the people's awareness of the problems and I hope it will enable us to follow their lead, because that is simply what we will be doing, we can thus create an example for other countries that may be wealthier than us, and we have not been creating that example just now. When we do that, at least we shall be secure in our conviction that we are meeting our obligations. I gladly support the Parliamentary Secretary on these two resolutions.

I note that there are nine countries or groups of countries that are parties to this International Food Aid Convention: the Argentine, Australia, Canada, EEC, Finland, Japan, Sweden, Switzerland and the United States of America. I would like the Parliamentary Secretary to give me some information in regard to some figures I shall mention. When this convention came into effect in 1971, the EEC agreed to the minimum annual contribution of 1,035,000 metric tons. I notice from this motion before us this morning to approve the protocol for the extension of the Food Aid Convention of 1971, that the EEC is to contribute again the minimum amount of 1,287,000 metric tons. Of course, since 1971 there has been an increase in the membership of the EEC. In 1971 there were the Six; now there are the Nine. Has the Community's contribution gone up accordingly? From these figures it does not seem so. We seem to be falling behind in our commitment to poorer countries.

According to a document here, at the conference in Rome in November, 1974, on the World Food Convention, cognisance was taken of the importance of a programme for cereals. Examining these figures and bearing in mind the increase in membership of the EEC, I wonder if it is only cognisance that has been taken and not action. We should have a firmer commitment.

I note also that Ireland's percentage share is .53 per cent. According to my calculations, .53 per cent amounts to 6,435 metric tons of cereals. I should like to know if this is passed on in cash or crop. I imagine it must be cash.

It is in crop?

I shall deal with it.

Good. If we contribute 6,435 metric tons, would the Parliamentary Secretary be able to indicate what tonnage of cereals is grown in Ireland on average? There was a shortage of documentation this morning, and the Parliamentary Secretary has expressed his regret about this. There also seemed to be a shortage of advisers this morning. However, I would like the Parliamentary Secretary to indicate what percentage of our cereal growth is being passed on.

This gives us an opportunity to speak generally of our attitude and our actions in regard to the needs of less well-off countries throughout the world. We contribute to various programmes and organisations. Some time ago I had a look at the Estimate figures for the past two years. In 1972-73 we contributed £250,000 to the World Food Programme; in 1973-74 the figure went up to £300,000 and this year it is £350,000. Is our contribution large enough to this admirable organisation, when we deduct the percentage rate of inflation? To FAO we contribute annually £30,000. Is this a fixed sum and is there any way in which we could increase it? We have been contributing £15,000 a year to Gorta since 1972-73. Is it not time we considered increasing these figures?

It is not enough to express sympathy for the suffering peoples of those countries. We see them on our television screens, haggard mothers and starving children. In that context I ask can we ever do enough? I had hoped more Deputies would be here this morning to contribute to the debate. Deputy O'Kennedy spoke about the generosity of our people, and I wondered, listening to him, if we as their elected representatives are contributing sufficient, bearing in mind our people's desire to help.

The Supplementary Estimate expresses the Government's intention to contribute in the form of Irish beef to the World Food Programme. Will this be live or canned beef? We have seen highlighted recently the terrible conditions of hunger in many parts of the world and one wonders if our contributions could be substantially increased. We seem to have a lot of sympathy but to be lacking in action.

I am grateful to Deputies O'Kennedy and Murphy for their contributions which showed sincerity and deeply felt concern. At the beginning I will deal briefly with the questions raised by Deputy Murphy, so far as I can deal with them, more or less on the basis of the material I have in front of me.

The last question he asked was in regard to the Government's donation in beef. This is easily answered. It will be canned beef, not beef on the hoof. On his question in regard to Ireland's contribution under the Food Aid Convention, the answer is that the wheat will be provided as such, not just cash to buy it with. Neither the Community nor any of their members have ever supplied cash under this Convention: it has always been wheat, in kind. The Deputy made a rapid calculation the result of which was to show that if our share of the total Community effort was .53 per cent, then 3,000 odd metric tons did not measure up to it. The Deputy is perfectly right. The truth is that we have not in fact so far been able, because of difficulties not merely of a financial kind, to arrange for the purchase and shipment of enough wheat to fulfil our outstanding commitment, but we hope that the provision the House is now making will be enough to buy the amount of wheat I have mentioned so that in the course of 1976 we will be able to catch up on our outstanding commitments. Of course that is an expression of hope, of commitment and determination. The Deputy was quite right in saying that the amount of wheat it is now proposed to buy and ship—the shipping and general handling costs are a very substantial proportion of our total contribution, something like 25 per cent: I have it in mind to inquire about that extraordinarily high proportion of our contribution which goes in shipping, freightage and handling—will not meet the full amount we intended to provide this year, but our determination is to catch up on our outstanding commitments in the course of 1976.

From the EEC information document, the contribution from the Community was at a fixed rate from 1968 until the enlargement of the Community of 1,035,000 tons of cereal. In this year, allowing for the enlargement of the Community last year, it is only 1,278,000 tons. It does not seem to be in proportion to the enlarged Community.

I agree it does not seem to be in proportion to the enlarged size of the Community but unfortunately I am not in a position to give the Deputy a clear explanation of why this appears to be so—I am not admitting it is so but it appears to look like that. I will try to get the answer and communicate privately with the Deputies who, I know, are concerned about it. Deputy O'Kennedy's speech was a very fine one and I should like to acknowledge the graceful references in it to the Minister. They are very well deserved, but it is not often that such recognition is afforded by political opponents.

I agree with everything Deputy O'Kennedy said about how we should have a non-partisan approach both to providing aid to the Third World and to educating the people towards political willingness to provide that aid. There is a strongly moralising streak running through Deputy O'Kennedy's arguments. I do not disagree with them, but he seems to be saying that it is whether it hurts at home that counts rather than whether it does good abroad. I do not say this as a criticism of the Deputy because I think it is a very honourable point of view, but he seems to be saying that we ought not pat ourselves on the back for doing something which, in real terms, costs us very little.

I agree that the House ought to lead public opinion in regard to its conditioning for the supply of aid to people who are worse off than ourselves. I agree also with his very correct reference to the enormous increase in the receipts of Trócaire. It is an old saying that it is the poor who help the poor. It is probably true in this case, as Deputy O'Kennedy said, that a very large proportion of the £620,000 collected has come from people who are not able to afford large contributions.

It is obviously the problem, and Deputy O'Kennedy mentioned it a couple of weeks ago, to condition people politically to paying money for something which is not evidently essential to the running of the country. While, in my view, a Government has responsibility which it ought not shirk in leading public opinion and in leading it by way of spending money, it is only fair to face up to the political difficulty whereby a Minister pressing for an allocation which carries not many votes—that is the long and the short of it—is at a disadvantage compared with a Minister looking for money for which there is a very strong and spontaneous public demand. The Minister for Finance is in a much stronger position when applying taxation for that purpose than he is for a purpose which is not the subject of spontaneous feeling.

Until such time as there is spontaneous feeling of the kind Deputy O'Kennedy would like to see develop, any Government, either from these parties or from Fianna Fáil, will be up against this problem. The Deputy mentioned that we had lagged behind even the minimum commitment calculated by reference to GNP. While that was true, and I say it not so much in extenuation of the situation as to put it in perspective, we are not the only country which has lagged behind. There is a very long list of countries who equally have not come up to the proportion of GNP expected of them in development aid.

That is all the more reason for us——

That is one of the most strongly moralising points in the Deputy's speech for which I honour him. When he talks about the cheeseparing attitude reflected in the Community when they say: "We will contribute this much provided that other countries contribute so much, too," that is not the right spirit, I agree it is not a very inspiring approach, but it is a practical one. It is not exactly an indication of an anxiety to hang back in providing aid, but it is intended more as an inducement to others to do it.

I accept that. It may be a tactical approach. If the inducement does not work the last stage will be very much worse than the first.

I agree with the idea that one's own activities should not depend on those of others. I hope I will not be pulled up by the Chair or that what I am about to say will not be resented by Deputy O'Kennedy because it is not my intention to annoy him. That is my point of view much nearer home. For example, the fact that the security forces in the North of Ireland may be suspect in this, that or the other respect, does not relieve us from the obligation of making sure that barbarism does not flourish in our territory. If the Deputy would extend his very correct reasoning to that situation and if he could persuade his party to follow him, things might be different. I agree with his reasoning and think the community should not appear to be hanging back and making its help conditional on the help of others. I agree when he says that if others fall down on the job, that is all the more reason why we should redouble our efforts. That is a very honourable attitude and nobody could reasonably differ from it.

How to persuade people to part with money to the Government for a purpose which they do not spontaneously recognise as essential is a serious political problem. Without trying to lay the ground for getting the Government out of this difficulty, it is possible to distinguish between expenditure which even the simplest or most selfish citizen would regard as unavoidable—the maintenance of the institutions of the State, the provision of minimum educational and social facilities, the provision of the minimum welfare requirements of the people, support of industry, for regional development and so on—and purposes which they do not spontaneously recognise as essential. Everyone would regard these as things which have to be paid for and nobody would blame a Government for extracting from the people the tax necessary. When it comes to something else which does not carry so many votes, for example, the provision of even important amenities, such as a decent museum building or a national library, the responsible Minister is likely to be shouldered out of the way because it will not pay off in public support. That is very regrettable. The same, I regret to say, is true of development aid.

I throw out to the House this idea —I admit it has the look of an easy way for a Government to get out of certain difficulties but it is worth considering—there might be a dual or parallel taxation system in which a subject, such as development aid, would be clearly identified to the taxpayer and put to him as a matter which he could support or not as he chose. I admit it looks weak for a Government to suggest that the payment of tax for any purpose ought to be optional, but there are very respectable precedents for it in other parts of the world. The most outstanding one is in the Federal Republic of Germany.

The State collects very large amounts of tax from the citizens for the upkeep of the two main churches. That, of course, could not and should not be done here and, if it were, I would not support it. I only mentioned it to illustrate my point that there is, in a respectable and wellgoverned country, an optional system of taxation. A citizen can opt out of his church tax if he wishes by declaring himself to be neither Catholic nor Lutheran. If he does not mind being held up to the civil service as being of neither religion, he need not pay his church tax. Most people, even if they only go to church at Easter or Christmas, pay their church tax. It is thinkable that a Government might raise stupendous amounts of money for the purpose which Deputy O'Kennedy so sincerely supports by, let us say, levying a further surcharge of 1 per cent on the net income tax paid directly by the citizen, by PAYE or otherwise, for the purpose of helping the Third World. There may be other purposes which could be fitted into this as well. The citizen should be given the option of avoiding this surcharge if he wishes. The sum for the individual would be quite small. For instance, for a man who pays £2,000 a year in income tax by PAYE, 1 per cent of that would be only £20 and that is probably more than the average man who pays that much tax contributes voluntarily to Trócaire or similar charitable organisations. It seems to be thinkable and worth exploring that a system of this kind might be considered for these purposes.

It is arguable that amenities, and the protection of the environment, although clearly within the Government's responsibility, might be helped by a similar system. I would like to hear a tax expert compare the system in Germany with the possibility of doing something of the same kind here. I believe the sum raised would be far beyond anything which the Government, any Government, rather grudgingly contributes to the Third World for its survival and development.

Deputy O'Kennedy referred to food aid alone not being sufficient and also to the fact that poverty and deprivation was at the root of the savagery and all the horrible extremism that has become such a feature of modern life. I agree that food aid alone is not sufficient but within the narrow limits which have been established here we have set up programmes of aid which are not only of a food kind. I have been associated, in a ceremonial way, with one or two in the last few months. The Shannon Free Airport Development Company has laid on courses for people from developing countries in the establishment of a free zone, something which is of considerable interest to those countries. The Institute of Public Administration recently completed a good course in hospital management for hospital managers from underdeveloped countries. Recently I was looking through a file and speaking to the gentleman principally concerned with it in regard to the development of a drug. It is an Irish invention which may be manufactured in Ireland, and which, if everything goes well, will be of considerable assistance in fighting leprosy in countries where that is endemic. These are forms of aid which are peculiarly appropriate to us. The incidence of personal inventiveness and personal commitment is very high and the input of money, by comparison, is relatively modest. If Deputy O'Kennedy's remarks were intended in the same direction, as I believe they were, I welcome and agree with them.

I accept that the background of gruelling poverty which exists in many of the developing countries cannot be one favourable to the development of civilised methods of doing political business and, quite possibly, contribute to the mental atmosphere in which people can think it is all right to go to an airport and shoot 20 or 30 perfectly innocent people or blow up a plane in order to make a political point. That is possible but I should like us to warn people here that there is not necessarily a connection—at least criminology has never been able to find one—between crime and poverty. It may be a contributing factor or cause in the case of individuals but it has also been found in countries in the western world that certain forms of crime rose with affluence instead of decreasing.

This may not be germane to the main point of this debate but I say it in case anybody listening to this debate might run away with the idea that the troubles at home are simply the result of economic deprivation. That certainly is part of a history of the troubles and there is no shadow of doubt about that but to attempt to palliate the horrors we have seen here or to excuse or forgive them merely on the grounds that the people who committed them were poor or that their people were poor I would not like to let go without sounding that warning. I am sure Deputy O'Kennedy did not intend his remarks in that way. I should like to thank the House for the way the Motion and the Supplementary Estimate have been received and I should like to thank Deputy O'Kennedy and Deputy Ciarán Murphy for their constructive speeches.

Question put and agreed to.
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