I have noticed the latter part of Deputy Wilson's contribution in relation to the Department of Education keeping an eye on the matter he referred to. My understanding—and I am speaking from a very general understanding—of the position in relation to science policy is not that the Minister for Industry and Commerce is arrogating to himself all responsibility but that he will have an overall co-ordinating and directing role——
Excess Vote, 1972-73. - Vote 28: Office of the Minister for Education (Resumed).
Debate resumed on the following motion:
That a sum not exceeding £15,442,000 be granted to defray the charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of December, 1975, for the salaries and expenses of the Office of the Minister for Education (including Institutions of Science and Art), for certain miscellaneous educational and cultural services and for payment of sundry grant-in-aid.
—(Minister for Posts and Telegraphs.)
Keep him out.
——through the National Science Council and that the other Departments which are bound to be involved on matters relating to technology will retain their responsibilities but will exercise them in the context of a general plan which will be drawn up under the general guidance of the Minister for Industry and Commerce. This is my understanding of the situation.
Subhead D.5—Physical Education—the sum estimated is £38,000 for 1975 as compared with £36,000 for nine months in 1974. Does the Parliamentary Secretary consider the Estimate is adequate in view of the fact that this year the first graduates will come from the National College of Physical Education?
I understand that the money is adequate. In large measure the money is being spent within the NCPE. The NCPE is now in full operation. Preparatory works of some character were required last year but this year the amount of such works will not be as great and the amount required for work of that sort as distinct from current matters such as payment of staff would be a declining factor.
On subhead E.1, I would appeal for flexibility. If something good turns up the National Library should have room for manoeuvre. Prices are rising very considerably for specialised books.
I have been giving this matter attention in consultation with the Visitors and Directors of the National Library. I agree that what the Deputy says is necessary. I understand that arrangements can be made and, indeed, were made during the period of office of both Governments to enable purchases to be undertaken which were of an exceptional nature, by special sanction, for both the National Library and the National Museum.
Subhead F.4—the Minister for Education came in last year with a special kind of plea about money for educational packs and that type of thing. Is this the subhead?
Yes. That is the subhead in relation to which the supplementary Estimate was introduced.
Can we expect an increase for the academic year 1975-76?
These are not related strictly to academic years. They refer to activities involved in the formation of an education and exhibition service for the National Museum, National Library, National Gallery and other allied institutions including the State Paper Office.
Have you not something going in Trim?
Yes, and we have set up a committee consisting of the directors of the three institutions and the Keeper of State Papers, also the education officers of each of the institutions—they now have education officers which they did not have heretofore—and three inspectors of the Department. The committee is chaired by an inspector of the Department. This committee is overseeing initiatives in relation to education services which include the establishment of exhibition centres in Castlebar, County Mayo, and Trim, County Meath. But other matters in relation to the development of education services within the institutions themselves in Dublin and, perhaps, the matter referred to by the Deputy, which are of more general application than to counties in which exhibition centres are being established, are being considered by the committee. This money is being expended in a flexible way and it is a major and useful development in relation to the National Library and the National Museum in that it allows them to adopt a more public role coming into contact with adult education in a way not possible heretofore.
Almost £1 million is spent on the inspectorate and I would ask the Parliamentary Secretary to convey to the Minister for Education a general request that the inspectorate be set up on a more autonomous basis than at present. This is general policy, but considering the amount being spent, it is time the Minister took a new look at the functions of the inspectorate. They should have more autonomy.
I shall note what the Deputy has said.
Have the Government decided to augment the staff attached to school attendance committees in the city of Dublin by the provision of child psychiatrists?
This is linked with the review of child care services which is taking place within the task force set up by the Minister for Health. School attendance can be a first line of defence in relation to children who are liable to have difficulties. The whole provision for the school attendance service and perhaps the legal basis also are being reviewed by the task force. In fact, I asked myself that when this matter was being considered, the task force should take into account the provision regarding school attendance.
Have the Government found any remedy for the children thrown on the streets by the Children's Court when they are put on remand? Has any permanent or temporary home been found for these children? Are they to continue "living rough" in the city?
There are problems with certain children. In many cases which originally caused concern solutions of some kind have subsequently been found in regard to accommodation. There are certain children who are still a problem. I said in reply to a question by the Deputy some considerable time ago that this general question of accommodation for children who are either deliquent or maladjusted or deprived is being considered by the task force. There are obvious problems as regards whether such an institution should be completely open or should be closed and as to whether particularly difficult children should be housed on the same campus as children less difficult. If you have a home catering for children who are deliquent but not out of control and you introduce children who are really disturbed you can find that they will have a bad effect on the regime of the house. There may be physical accommodation for such children but it must be considered whether on balance their using such accommodation as does exist could have deleterious effects on other children. This creates a serious policy issue which involves the study of psychiatric or psychological evidence which is being examined by the task force on child care set up by the Minister for Health. I understand the question of accommodation will be the subject of an interim report by the task force. I do not know when that report will be available, but it will not be in the too-distant future.
Nothing is still being done after all the months and these young children are still there.
If the Deputy has specific children in mind he may find that they have been catered for—or many of them—but I cannot say that there is still not a problem or that there is not likely to be a problem.
Vote put and agreed to.